My sister's husband is has been living with his OW while still married to my sister for the past 6 months. Divorce proceedings are under way. They have 4 children (ages 4 through 15).


My sister ALLOWS her 4 kids (my nieces and nephews)to be around this other woman. She said that she would rather keep "peace" with the dad than to upset the apple cart at this point. My BIL, his OW and my sisters 4 kids will all be going camping together as "one big happy family". I don't get this!!

I just got off of the phone with my sister and asked her "Doesn't it bother you that the kids are around her?" She said "yes, but I don't want to cause any more conflict in their lives by telling Dave (her H) that they can't be around her." I'm thinking "wtf??" "

My main concern is the trauma that this will cause the kids down the road as they see that noone protected them from subjecting them to being in the middle of their dad's affair. They are still trying to process their mom and dad splitting up for goodness sakes. I told her as much. She said that she can't prevent them from being around the OW. I said "yes you can! Get a court order. No court in the country would allow this!" Her reply: "That's too much work". ARGHH!! This is a woman with plenty of money so that's not the issue.

I know that she's going through a rough time but what is wrong with this picture??

Please tell me: Am I overreacting? What would you do/ say/ think here?

Thanks,
-Callie

I'd do everything in my power to convince every one of those kids that OW is a meth-addicted child molester.

Fear is a primary motivator for many BS for a while at least during their experience.

Fear of doing anything that might "drive their WS away" paralyses so many BS.....

Now if your sister WITHELD the kids from OW until such times as it could not be prevented by law, it would apply some consequences pressure to her H to consider his position and behaviour.

As it is his cake-eating is being fed by your sister.

I know from my own experience that maintaining personal dignity is of utmost worth during the dark time of an active affair ( and always in fact) and that protecting children from learning bad moral lessons during that time is very important. I'm worried at the lessons your sister is teaching them here.

As for myself, for example - when the threat was highest that Squid would leave to be with OM and seek to get visitation I actually arranged a job in a country where there is no extradition treaty with my country, but where I could work and live comfortably for my present multinational employer.

I was a phone call and a plane journey away from taking my kids away from WW and OM until such times as I chose to reintroduce them. I would not have had OM ever be considered as a father figure to my children. I do not say this lightly, if my plan had failed and OM got to be "dad" in the house with my children, I would have killed him.

I guess your sister does not share my passion over this topic.

As for what you should say, I'd just ask her this :

"what would you do if you weren't afraid?"

Yeah, maybe it is fear that's motivating her. She has always been so afraid to rock the boat with her H that she's allowed him to have other women on the side before (this is not the first affair for him), turned a blind eye to lots of other things that most people would take action with. I told her today that I think her H is an @ss among other words. She said that she doesn't want to think badly of him and then she said that she refuses to say anything negative about the OW around her kids. WTF???

How will they even know this is wrong behavior then? How will they know enough not to do this to other people when they grow up? Or not to allow others to do it to them? After all, BOTH mom and dad seem to have no problem with it.

-Callie

You're right, Bobpure. She is handing him his cake on a silver platter. That's another thing that's bothering me. She allows H to take the kids every other weekend so that he can spend time with them (with OW too..)

-Callie

29c

I can only tell you MY approach - I ask folks who are enabling bad stuff "what do you think is the RIGHT thing to do ?"

Not "best" thing or "what you going to do ?"

Use "right".

So ask questions calmly and non-judgementally of your sister :

"what do you think your kids are learning from *this action* ?"
and
"are you proud of your decision then?"

Just ask, don't respond other than lovingly.

Just IMO.

29cat, this really is so very sad because your sister has sacrificed her children to avoid conflict. These children are being taught that it is ok to be immoral, to commit adultery, to lie, to cheat, to be thoughtless and cruel. That is what your BIL is teaching them with their mothers permission. They will grow up profoundly morally confused, not knowing right from wrong. Both of them are neglecting their duty as parents by allowing those kids to be dragged into this filthy affair.

A WS will introduce the children into his affair in order to normalize it and give it a false sense of "respectibility." These kids are being used to help prop up his affair.

Have the kids even been told that adultery is immoral?

Dr. Harley is a strong advocate of telling the children the TRUTH. He has an article about telling children here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8112_lesson.html

This is a segment that is sloppily and partially transcribed by me that was on the Dr Laura show. I thought Dr. Laura made some EXCELLENT and profound points about the effects of lying to children about adultery. I don't always agree with her views on adultery, but she is right on in this aspect.

Dr. Laura show [4:25 min into segment - 5-15-08]

Caller: Husband had an affair with good friend for 2 years. Her H ws one of his "buddies."

Dr. Laura: Do you have minor children?

Caller: Yes, we both do

Dr. Laura: They are willing to hurt your kids? Why are they willing to break up the families?

caller: Basically, they said they are not "happy."

Dr L: So that is the explanation for being willing to hurt their kids? They are doing this to be "happy?"

What can I do to possibly help you?

Caller: I need to know what to tell my kids.

Dr. Laura: THE TRUTH. They are breaking up 2 families because they have decided.....

See, I am not of the school where you stand by and do pretend with kids where this is all ok. Because this is NOT OK.

The most important story is that this is NOT OK. sit down with your husband and tell him you are going to explain to our children, in a factual, non hysterical way I am going to explain to the kids the horrible thing you are doing to destroy their family. That you are "not happy" is not sufficient reason to destroy 2 families and I am going to make this clear to them because I want them to grow up understanding this is WRONG.

That is my advice. And i think everybody should be clear this is selfish behavior that is WRONG, vows were made.

Not being "happy" is something you work to turnaround, not something you destroy a family over. If both of these people were to hear this was going to happen they will have second thoughts.

DO not think for a moment you are doing wrong by telling your children this. It is your moral obligation to teach them right from wrong. EVEN when it demonstrates a parent has done wrong. The parent cannot be whitewashed and get away with that - THAT IS WRONG and that does not teach the children

I really hope alot of people hear this. Alot of ppl want to whitewash what they are doing. Kids should know that is your attitude.

But to tell the custodial parent: hey don't make me look bad for my own selfish gain is ABSURD! and is EVIL! We are going to make wrong seem ok. Kids will lose any sense of right and wrong. Kids will be taught that anything is ok as long as it makes me "happy." Kids lose any sense of right or wrong. "well, it makes me happy to use drugs" when I am 12 It makes me "happy" to get on my knees and give 4 6th graders oral sex. That is what they teach their kids.

This is what happens when you whitewash wrongdoing to make no body feel bad which is why I get called MEAN. I get called mean because I say the truth. "Its MEAN to say something is right or wrong; its mean to make somebody feel bad!" Its MEAN to say the truth. People get shut down when they get called "judgmental" when they say the truth. The intent is to shut you down. Well, I don't shut up. Kids don't learn important truths when they allow others to shut them down. We don't help our children when we don't say the truth and support them in saying what is right and wrong.

Melody,

You have completely verbalized my thoughts.

Not only have these kids not been taught that anything that their dad has done is wrong but, as I've said to BobPure, my sister won't even say anything negative about the OW around the kids.

In fact, they were over here a month ago and my 12 y.o. nephew told me that our cat looked like just like his dad's girlfriend's cat without a hint in his voice that this statement would be shocking to me. I about fell out of my chair as this was the first I had heard that the kids were around OW. Now I find out that they are spending a week with her and my BIL to go camping.


-Callie

Wow, that Dr. Laura answer really helps!!

I can tell that those kids are struggling with their feelings about what dad is doing. And no adult is willing to step up to the plate andvalidate their thoughts that what he is doing is harmful.

I would love to talk with them but now I'm not sure that my sister won't allow them over here since she knows I'll "talk" about it to them. Frustrating, eh?

Her justification was that the best thing for the kids was to "avoid conflict" while the parents divorce. Well, they are NOT divrced yet and they will not be divorced for another 8 months or so. And her avoidance of conflict is harming the kids more than anything else, IMO..

I cannot describe to you how emotionally damaging this is to children. My father was a serial cheater who often introduced us to his ho's. Kids instinctively KNOW that adultery is wrong but when the adults don't validate that instinct, they think THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM.

They learn they are STUPID, and learn to doubt themselves. I figured out I must be a very stupid girl at a very young age because what seemed so WRONG to me apparently was not wrong to adults. I was filled with self doubt and confusion.

My mother was guilty of GROSS PARENTAL NEGLECT by failing to teach her children right from wrong. We had to grow up and learn right from wrong all on our own. Since my mother neglected her duty, we were taught "morals" from our immoral father.

Your sister is neglecting her children by not teaching them right from wrong. they are being taught that anything is acceptable as long as it makes them "happy." Well, she will have no recourse if they decide doing drugs or having sex at 13 or smoking cigarettes makes them "happy."

I just shudder thinking about this. It is a horrible thing to live in the FUN HOUSE where nothing and nobody MAKES SENSE, when lunatics STEAL REALITY.

That is absolute bullcrap. Any parent that sacrifices the emotional well being of their child to achieve an "amicable" divorce is guilty of gross neglect. She is HARMING her children in order avoid conflict with her H.

Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist with 35 years experience and he very much advocates teaching children right from wrong and telling them about the adultery. This is how children learn right from wrong!

It is not in her childrens best interest to see her being "amicable" with a man who lies and cheats on her. What kind of message does that send? That you should be "amicable" with someone who abuses and mistreats you? What parent, in her right mind would teach her kids THAT??

I am completely with you Melody.

It's a form of child abuse, IMO.

I just spoke to my DH about it and he said that it's not "our business" but I disagree. When the kids are being mistreated and those assigned to protect them are negligent, it becomes my business. Now I'm wondering what I can do here since she's not listening to me and we don't live close enough to stop by, etc.

-Callie

email her the link to this thread!

Let me tell ya, Callie, as a kid who was raised in the FUN HOUSE, I would have been so grateful for a kind relative to sit me down and help me understand things. I was STARVED for truth and reason and SANITY.

My brother grew up to be a serial cheater ["son, ya just gotta do what makes ya happy," my father told him when he dumped his wife and 10 year old autisic son for 21 yr old tramp. his W had a nervous breakdown and was in the nutward for some time] and my sister is making herself "happy" taking massive quantities of narcotics every day. That is what life in the FUN HOUSE does.

Melody,

Wow, I can't believe you turned out so healthy with a FOO like that! Kudos to you, I'm guessing that it was quite a long "re-learning" process for you to get to where you are now?

Getting this perspective from you is exactly what I need. If my nieces and nephews do come to visit, I WILL sit them down and talk with them about it.

I'll send my sis the link here too but doubtful that she'll look into this. She made it clear that she was following her therapists advice and he was telling her that "avoiding conflict" while divorcing deal (gag...)

-Callie

Most "therapists" are little more than divorce facilitators who have no idea how to even save a marriage, much less how to treat traumatized children. Remember, Dr. Harley is a reknowned clinical psychogist, who has been doing this for 35 years. He has 20 books under his belt. He SPECIALIZES in matters related to infidelity. His credentials are impeccable, IMO.

p.s. does your sister realize that SHE is facilitating their affair by allowing those kids to be used like this? His affair has a 95% chance of collapsing, so there is absolutely no reason to introduce kids to a very temporary situation that is doomed from the start.

Did she even try to save the marriage?

Melody,

Not sure WHAT my sister is thinking at this point

Now, this marriage ITSELF was an affair marriage. BIL was married when he met sister (told her he was single..). Then BIL walked away from wife #1 and went to live with my sister (while still married). They married after a year or so of living together in adultery. So his actions this time are seeming awfully familiar..

Does the 95% collapse rate still apply when the marriage itself was born out of an affair?

-Callie