Hello, LA. Thanks for your response!

Since you said, "I missed this post. I don't know how...but I did," I will be so obtrusive as to mention that I posted twice in a row on the 21st--in response to Mof2's suggestion of COSA, and then in response to your post of the 17th.

If you would favor me (needy me) with yet more of your attention and insight, scroll back up and read my first 6/21 post--tell me if I am co-dependent after all, not to mention self-regarding and delusional :eek:. You too, Mof2 . . .

You said, I think this is exactly right. But when you say, and --How many times do I get to ask? Because I did. And how long do I "let the response go" before I get to ask again?

I have asked, "Were you sexually abused?" and he said "No." I feel like the respectful thing to do, even if I think, "Yes, you were," is to NOT know more about his stuff than he does. And to drop that until it comes up again. Is this right?

Going back to it "out of the blue" feels like it would be nagging.

(Until it comes up again = when we talk about his boyhood again, or when we have our next fight, I mean 'negotiation session,' about his publishing [anonymously on the internet] the manuscript he wrote about polysexuality and the practicalities of availing oneself of friendly casual sex.)

About the ms--one of my first efforts at POJA!!! The VISA bill came. He had an automatic deduction to pay Yahoo to continue to reserve the URL he'd chosen (way back before D-day) for the website he would (he hoped, someday) post the ms. on.

H: I want to post the ms. someday--I don't mean right now, or with my name on it. It will be anonymous. It's not like people will be able to contact me about it. But if I don't pay to reserve the URL, I will lose it.

My first reaction: Well, fine. I'm through with keeping your bad secrets, remember? You put it up there in cyberspace, and I'll email everyone in my address book with the link to your ms. and the fact that YOU are the author!!

OK, well, so that is an example of "using conversation to make threats." Against the rules. But remember, it was only my second effort at POJA (after the discussion about my nephew's wedding).

So here's my next effort (from my emailing him 6/8/08):

Here we pause briefly for Amoret to cringe. Honestly, one of the most painful things about this whole chapter of our life together was ALL THE LIES HE TOLD ABOUT ME!!!

Yes, I know it is my cringing over my self-image. But it made me feel so utterly betrayed and un-known.

OK. Done with that. Thanks for listening.
His reaction: "I don't want to talk about it."

But Yahoo's going to bill him for it again next year, so it will come up again.

I have said, "I am so sorry about all the pain and rejection you experienced as a boy. I hear you, that being looked at and admired and desired by lots of women, and giving them pleasure, soothed your pain. I don't want you to hurt anymore, but that way of soothing your pain will destroy our marriage. So . . . how about working with a counselor to explore other ways to deal with that pain?"

He's said, "I'm not going to a counselor. The way I was dealing with the pain worked just fine. You're the one who's not letting me anymore."

So yes, I will ask him to consider counseling again, but I feel like I need to wait until it comes up again. Not sure how/when, but we are doing the MB course "His Needs, Her Needs," so maybe when we get to the part about Sexual Fulfillment.

How did your H arrive at the conclusion that porn was bad? And (watch how my mind works on this next one . . . ) how did you get him to go to a counselor?

Or did he just spontaneously wake up one morning and say, "Gee, I think I need to see a counselor who specializes in sexual addiction!"?

I feel like I'm arguing with you, which would be ungrateful, huh? Not to mention that (as I have said to my kids) arguing with your teacher makes learning from her more difficult. But I want to understand you. I hope you can help me. I would like to go the right place from here.

Thanks,

Amoret

Amor,

Hey, arguing is not a symbol of ingratitude to me. And I really missed where you argued. Seems to me you're confirming or clarifying what I've said using examples from your life.

Sounds like communication to me!! And I learned a lot in school when some kids (same ones, usually, year to year) would argue with the teacher...because they exampled having a separate opinion from an adult authority...I hadn't conceived of that (honestly). I was frightened FOR them. Sometimes it did interfere with what was being taught...and other times, the argument was about the interpretation of history, not the facts; the why this caused this, and cured that. Took somethings deeper than the teacher would have from earnest curiosity and sharing when the kid "didn't get it" and wanted to...so there yu go. This isn't history or fact or a cure...it's not mathematics or science. Involves all of them though, I think.

The word for the day (in my email) was devil's advocate...and what it said for origin was interesting...in the Roman Catholic Church they set up a court-like forum when considering and determining sainthood. There was a devil's advocate to argue why sainthood wasn't appropriate; and there was a God's advocate to argue why it was...together, we get there. That's what I got.

And right after this, I will go back and read your earlier post and respond.

You know there are lots great cliches out there and there are ones that seemingly contradict others. "The devil is in the details" is one of those I didn't get...may not yet...only reading your post, it came to mind.

We can distract in details...we can distract in so many ways...you've already named a through as distraction as comforting, soothing, coping.

So...you have the detail of the charge for reserving a domain name; the detail that he has a manifesto for his beliefs he wants to publish anonymously on the domain (the when is unspecified); knowing this discussion about the ms will come up again next year when Yahoo debits his cc again...these are details...how much you look at them, though, may take away from the importance of the big picture (and I believe you're a very big-picture kinda person).


Here is a boundary crossing of great proportions. Listen and repeat would say, "I hear something new in what you just said. You're choosing to not explore your pain, have no plans on understanding or letting it go; and you've decided to manage it in this way and believe I'm the one is stopping you, is that correct?"

See, if he does not plan on addressing his pain, then you don't have a marriage...may be why you are getting the signal he won't address YOUR pain (which is yours)...and it's pointing to his choice not to do so. He's into chronic pain management...taking the drugs...when there is actually a cure, a healthy way to not feel pain without distracting from it. He's choosing not to--and if he had an ulcer, and would not go to the doctor to diagnose it, and instead, was shooting heroin...and only stopped because you said you would not continue marriage to an addict...what would you really do? See, you would be responsible for his suffering, then...he makes it so in his experience.

Stops the heroin, still has the ulcer, chooses not to address the true source and false payoffs and desires the heroin...to me, after a year...Asperbergers or not...respect his choice.

I really hate to say this...could be I'm way out of my league...you asked about my DH...we each had crushed a ton of pain into each other over 17 years together...and during his last A, I asked him to go to MC with me (our first time doing so), and he said, "Sure. I'll go." He went because he's had a very deep fear of being alone, all his life (and a lot of constant emotional pain)...verging on terror of it...and at the time he agreed, he had moved out of our marital home and was seeing OW...and so he went to MC with the goal to either decide to leave the marriage for OW, for himself or choose to work on the marriage. His pain "ulcer" was at the point that even he could see he was distracting, in fantasy...because fantasy was his heroin.

When the pain of not changing outweighs the pain of changing...we change.

Last night DH shared how much he now fears fantasy...he said he was not allowing himself to get the "falling in love" feelings with me because he sees first stage infatuation as fantasy...which is the danger drug...the one thing that makes reality unbearable...and this was great to know because this has been an issue since three years ago when he said he would not allow himself to be in love with me again. I asked for an update.

Thanks to you, I shared fine-tuning my belief within self-image and the three stages of marriage...and he said he definitely desires, wants and is open to the third stage. He is willing to do the work to get there, including being vulnerable to feeling silly over me again.

I'm perceiving your WH has truly been this way since you've known him...where he chooses to participate in parental love as marital love...hence, your little boy benefit of the doubt stuff...false payoffs for our control freakishness...and self-image before all else.

You know too much to turn back now...lyrics, how's that for sharing what just crossed my mind. You asked specifically for him to challenge his beliefs by going to counseling for sexual addiction, exploring his past with a new eye, and he chose not to...and said that was his decision for the future, as well.

If that's your requirement for recovery, then recovery stops there. What was your original requirements for reconciliation...you had some great ones...and did he complete them? Any he renegged on later?

Could be I'm reactive to what your WH right now...he was having A's for four years...my WH's A was a year and a half of fantasizing about OW (they worked together), then two months engaged in the EA/PA...and then two months of contact before NC was in place for good. If your WH was engaged in fantasizing about A's, say for the years he did porn, that would be seven years of escalating fantasy permissions and distracting, then four years of acting out...and now one year of not acting out and continuing to choose fantasy, is that correct?

So I'm only seeing escalation now...hearing his replies to you "Are you going to be angry now?" "You're not letting me" Those are my own triggers going off here, so I'm going to just offer this...

Please call Dr. Harley as ask if couples can negotiate their way out of a parental relationship and into a partnering one. Maybe it happens...because negotiations have each Taker/Giver at the table, so you can get a sense of equal power, adult perspectives in the act of partnering.

I don't know...I can't imagine POJAing his ms...feeds self-image, attacks your marriage...for he'd have to begin it with..."Here's what I believe and choose not to do right now because my wife won't let me."

There's a very real chance that once you stop mothering him, he will choose to leave the marriage. Any indication of spousification of him by his mother? Would have been to an extreme. I'm putting the image of his actions in fathering DS during his depression along side his statements...and all I can come up with is that he wasn't fathering...he was mothering during crisis...his highest experience of love...so partnering may be the very experience he chooses not to have.

Humans have the freewill to choose living from fear and that being their life experience. Your choice what to live from ripples...cannot change his choice. So I'm stumped.

About the nagging...if you're sharing your thoughts, feelings, your stuff...do it once. If you're asking for something that isn't a marital boundary, then only ask once. If it's a boundary...then say you figured out this really is a deal-breaker and you'll respect him not choosing to meet that requirement for marital protection. Then you file for legal separation and he moves out.

This may be the only way to get to recovery some day...and I'm not one to look to about enforcing healthy marital boundaries because back then, after two sessions with the MC, WH moved back in, though in a separate room...two months before he made his choice to work on the marriage.

What I don't understand is sharing his ms on the internet without sharing it with his children first. Am I mixed up here...but neither you nor your WH have been honest with your sons about what WH was doing, is that correct? Not the porn, the A's...and he still does porn, am I correct?

Gotta hand it to DH...because he talked with our sons about SA...shared porn as addiction, distraction, distancing from people, sick secrets and self-deception. They all knew about his A. Maybe that makes a difference. His sharing sure went a long way in them healing from his past choices.

My apologies for lack of clarity in this response. Something is really brewing in my head right now and I gotta sort it out. Thanks for being here.

LA

Responding to your post first post on 6/21 regarding answering questions regarding COSA...




For me, true happiness comes from not distracting from pain but from healing from it. I don't see you as fitting this description...trying to control his stuff to keep you safe. You know your marriage is not safe. And with your boundary, standing for your core belief that marriage is a covenant between two people (and no other humans are allowed in it), it's not controlling. You not enforcing that boundary (because he's only stopping the actions, not the beliefs/fantasies) is where my own inadequacy comes in.

In MC, we were held accountable for not standing for our union, for not following the rule of protection, of care, around our marriage...we each told the MC our terrible actions and stuff...we heard our own justifications aloud and shuddered...and really got how you can hold yourself to the commitment you made, even if you don't feel like it--hence, you act from your commitment...and the feelings follow.

What I can't see with a year of MC that you guys haven't gotten to more...and I keep coming back to the requirements you set that he did not meet. I re-read the post I responded to that comes after this one...he refused to meet the requirements and you did not enforce your marital boundaries.

Amor, I think the next step for you is to truly act from respect and separate legally; he moves out...and you stop keeping his secret. You act from honesty for the good of your marriage and your family. You bring reality to yourself and to him...as your act of respect.

When we don't enforce our requirements for recovery, we cut off the WS's option for redemption, too...which means we get in their way...if they thirst for redemption, we won't be able to stop them from taking steps, regardless of those we are taking, to walk that road.

Key factor here is that your WH sees no reason for redemption...since he's made differently from others, a permanent alien to covenant marriage, which he once believed and acted for for 14 years? (Pre-porn.)

I don't see any other way for you to stop enabling your self-image but by sharing honestly with your family and his what he did, and why you're separating. Respect is you choose to lay the stepping stones to the way home...his is to choose to walk or not walk them...and you then choose to remove yourself.

I guess it would be like he had an EA/PA for four years with one OW...and though he isn't in contact with her for a year, he still believes she's what he wants for life, keeps her in his head, firms his desire in his beliefs...so you still have a third-party blocking your intimacy and his feelings. Without ownership (reality), this won't change. And he will begin justifying as he did before (using you instead of the previous group) to attack the marriage.

Keeping secrets spreads the sickness. Keeps the blame/shame cycle in full swing and it ripples. Please consider full disclosure and action here...not you abandoning the marriage...your marriage is right there, the one vowed to...his marriage is different, I think.

Have you been tested for STDs btw? I only see where he was after DDay.

I don't hear you fearing being alone, abandoned...and that you're not seeing him as abandoning you. He is refusing to act responsibly with his stuff...which affects his half of the marriage and all his other emotional and spiritual relationships. I'm wondering if this past year has been about you really absorbing the immense difference in what you thought versus what was actually happening? Two and half decades of "knowing this man" and then, not knowing him? I wonder what you would have done had there been one OW, a new mother figure, he replaced you with...if your decisions along the way would have been different?

You aren't replaceable...the other scenario remains the same...pure fantasy, clean slate (in his philosophy, btw, there is a constant clean slate (sans consequences) for his actions...which is the big signal of fantasy)...real human relationships get grimed up with self-images acting out and in...and part of furthering the relationship is when we clean off the grime, takes elbow grease and dedication...as an act of love for the marriage.

I guess I'm saying I'm now thinking you've been rubbing really hard and haven't realized you cannot clean more than your grime? I'm floundering. Fish me out.



Will you read Mama2Boys post on a thread in, I think, Recovery regarding women and sexuality? Sort of addresses some of the questions COSA asked which was new to me.

What if we look at it this way...LBs kill off about 20 love deposits...1 or 20...so his DJs are harming your love balance...and his sexually acting out is a big LB. If the DJs continue in your head, not out your mouth...they still affect love balances in the marriage and for ourselves inside. So really, this is an ongoing LB, a big one, in your marriage.

So if his thoughts dwell on his polysexuality, via manuscript, seeing you as not letting him, the webdomain, and keeping it secret and anonymous...then that is what he is treasuring, correct? He's in stasis right now?

I'm struggling because of the similarities I'm perceiving with your WH and my DH...he experienced sexual abuse by females around the age of 9...and did not consider it sexual abuse, though they were much older...because men always want it...his self-image was mostly formed by then and this was manly (he didn't see himself as a child and he was willing) and it went on for awhile...had to be kept secret (but not wrong) and it wasn't until nearly 40 years had passed that the MC heard about it...long time to keep a secret from everyone you know.

Spousification was in both of our upbringings...with different results...DH felt taken over, consumed out of existence by females...annihilation just like I experienced with abandonment...came through sexual and emotional abuse. Which is why he didn't leave or enforce boundaries in our marriage...when he was being verbally and emotionally abused by me. For his habit of experience was still intact and complete...he was right...females made him a slave, a prisoner of misery...as long as they could hold all the blame, then his payoff was blamelessness...even while the abuser was blaming him. More like reinacting the original engulfment and SA, actually.

I contributed to his pain...he remained locked into his own cycles...I just fit by doing the steps he expected, even needed me to do. Doesn't excuse or explain; doesn't even get the depth of injury. I remained locked into mine...until the pain of not changing was more than than the pain of changing.

We changed.

This is your partner today...look him full in the face...as you got in church the whisper...that's who you are choosing to recover with...and you cannot make him recover. Total choice. See he is not choosing recovery...just suspended animation of acting out.

What do you think?

LA

PS Your codeoendency is in the self-image you already identified...the big false payoff has small ones in every argument, every statement he makes that's a DJ, an AO, every unloving act he chooses to do...so you may have the same invisible payoff my DH did...or not. You'll know or you already know. This is me sharing.

Wow, reading this was incredibly depressing, LA. It took me by surprise.

I was not aware that I told you anything "new" about our relationship and our issues in my last post, but evidently I did.

What changed your mind from the time I said this, and you answered:
To the time you said this (just a day or two later, right?):
Not arguing, just asking. I feel like I have whiplash.

Let me clarify first that he has always used pornography--since way before I met him, during the early part of our marriage. The only time he didn't was for two years during his born-again experience in the early 1990's.

I don't know if he's used it post-D-day or not. (Yes, I am afraid to ask.--Don't forget, I'm the controlling, demanding, judgmental one.)

Now to answer your questions.


I have learned so much on MB. I did not know anything about a "plan for recovery" or "requirements for reconciliation" when D-day hit. He basically told me what he'd been doing, I read the ms., he said he was through with acting out (within a couple hours he clarified that he meant "Until you are OK with it").

The two demands I made of him: Stop having sex with other women, or you have to leave (immediately); stop contacting other women / accepting their contacting you, or you have to leave (three months after D-day).

He lied first about NC, then said, "If the MC says you're right, I'll stop." (He was pretty sure the MC would say, "No harm, as long as you are not having sex anymore.") When the MC backed me up, he said he was moving out and even called someone he knew from "the lifestyle" to see about a place to live.

The person said, "You're a <blank> idiot. I would give my right arm to have a woman like that." (This 3rd party had met me at the non-orgy event I went to to demonstrate to H that I was open to understanding "his world" and that I was aware that "lifestyle" people did not have purple heads or carry the brand of Satan or something.)

So, my dear husband took this third-party's word for it, that he would regret leaving me over NC, and sent a NC message via email to his "favorite partner."

Who then reacted out of her own pain, loss, and emotional upheaval, contacting both H and me, and needed to hear that NC was forever from me. Thankfully she has not been in touch since.

We haven't been together to see the counselor since late October. I've been several times by myself, and always invited him, but he doesn't want to go. Conceptualizes it as my needing help to "get over it," since he's done what he was supposed to do.

Here is the whole list of "High-Cost Trust-Building Behaviors" the counselor wanted me to make:


The MC saw this exercise (my making the list and us discussing it) as an opportunity for communication. Not as a legitimate list of conditions I set for our marriage to recover.

So I didn't know I could set conditions, except the one about 'the affairs have to stop' was a no-brainer. (For me--not for H. "Wives have been putting up with this since the dawn of time. 'For better or worse'--this is your 'worse.'" Me: "I'm a free woman. I can support myself--those women you're talking about couldn't. This isn't 'for worse'--this isn't marriage, period.")

And the MC backed me up on NC.

There was also a whole list of lower-cost behaviors, which he's been doing more of.

You will see I never asked him about transparency. I don't have any of his passwords. A lot of the contacts he had with these people happened on his work computer, in the office, and over his cell phone, which I never used. At home, he uses a laptop the kids didn't use much and I don't use at all.

BTW, I honestly don't think our children have seen the websites. He is VERY detail-oriented and careful. (Got a pre-paid phone plan so that there would be no bills or records mailed home, etc.)

I didn't know I could ask for transparency about internet--never knew was fair game, so to speak. (Our MC did not bring it up; I didn't know the stuff I've seen since on MB.) I thought I had to trust him, honor his privacy, let him be an adult. All that stuff.

I have thought, before as well as since finding MB, that our MC was not all that helpful. She provided a lot of affirmation and emotional validation to me during our individual sessions, but seemed at a loss as to how to intervene in my H's fantasy of what is OK.

Since early October (the last contact with OW), we have been exploring what is left of our marriage, now that it's clear to both of us that we don't have religious faith or a philosophy/ethics of sexuality in common any more.

We've been exploring RCs (I'm taking an interest in his hobbies--something he used to discourage my doing since said hobbies were also a cover for going to meet OWomen for sex, going to clubs, going to wife-swapping house parties, etc.)

We've had a lot more of a sex life.

Oh, and to answer your question about STDs: H was checked for the first time shortly after starting up with the "favorite partner" who was part of the wife-swapping social club. She was his mentor in the protocols of "the lifestyle," and annual checks are part of that subculture, at least within that club. So he'd been checked for his second annual only a month before D-day.

Of course I insisted on being checked, too, though H tried to convince me that his results should cover me, too. (Not receiving that. My body, my blood, my check-up. Trust you about this when you just now stopped lying to me about everything else? Nah.)

My results were negative as well. Thank God I didn't have to go through diagnosis, treatment, etc.

OK, back to exploring what's left of the marriage:

We have had a LOT more intimate conversations. He says he enjoys being closer.

But he does NOT enjoy being reminded of my bottom line. (A couple times since NC started: "I don't know how it got to be unclear to begin with, but I want to make sure it's clear now, and stays clear: Marriage to me excludes your having sex with other women.")

Presses buttons for him: "You saying that makes me feel like you're saying, 'I have your cojones in my hand, and I can squeeze whenever I want to.' It sounds like you are exulting in your power over me. I want to just leave WITHOUT having sex with anyone else when I hear you say that."

He does not like boundaries--or rather, he does not like MY having boundaries.

So, one month ago, I told him that I still felt extremely insecure. "The short-term outlook is good. I feel like I've got the marriage I've always wanted. [list of positives.] Except that I have "the marriage I've always wanted" with someone so hugely different from me that I can't put any weight on it at all.

"Since you are only sorry for hurting me and for the pain you caused me,
"since you think what you did was OK, and that I'm the one with the narrow mind and the wrong thinking,
"since you think it was fine to lie to me, because it was to keep from hurting me,
"since you think it was fine to lie ABOUT me, because the things you said about me were 'not negative' [apparently my 'doing it, too" was a positive in that particular subculture],
"what happened before could happen again at any time.
"Your not thinking you did anything wrong, and that you make just as big a sacrifice to stay with me as I do with you, means I am not getting the emotional validation from you that I need. I need that; I can't do that for myself. [Hadn't heard from you yet, LA, you see.]

"Unless you can see that you did something wrong, tell me what it was, and make me a sincere apology, I have no assurance that you 'get it.' If you can't 'get it,' I can't feel safe with you.
"Unless you give me a sincere apology, I will seek my emotional validation elsewhere. I will talk about it to anyone I want and let them validate my pain and tell me I'm amazing to give you another chance."

(This was after I told him of my intentions to discuss my marital crisis with a new woman friend I'd made and felt an instinctive connection with. His reaction: "I can't live with you here if you ruin my reputation.")

So I got my apology: sorry he lied to me, sorry he lied about me, sorry he had sex with those other women, wishes he had never done any of it.

Yes, I felt like I had to apply thumbscrews to extort it from him, but I have felt SO MUCH BETTER since he apologized. Really.

So then a week or so later (early this month), an episode of the typical inadvertant rudeness (typical pre-As; typical since; Asperger's-related), and my reacting to that, sent me to surfing the web again, where I found MB, where I read a lot of the articles and Q&As and first asked about POJA.

Looking for challenges, insight, and ideas. Found those, plus affirmation and emotional validation.

And now I am supposed to ask him again to go for counseling to explore his own issues and, if he doesn't, file for separation and kick him out?

(In my state, you have to file for divorce to get a legal separation. Just a factoid I picked up when a couple of my acquaintance divorced.)

Just checking to make sure I understand you. My head is whirling.

Time out for a little whine: I was SO HAPPY last night, when I had my breakthrough about "true self"="my life is hid with Christ in God."

I was so lighthearted last night, so happy this AM, mulling over my new insight, walking and enjoying being with H.

And now this hard thing to think about.

Tell me what I wrote that changed your take on the way forward, OK?

Thanks so much,

Gloomy Amoret

Amor,

Sorry about the whiplash...my perception swung in the opposite direction because of my stuff, not yours. See, I was validating the choices you made...and the more you have shared conversations with WH, the less I saw it as a life-changing event for him and more as an agenda to wear you down.

My perception...not reality. Hits at your base fear (and then I greedily reached in and took it for my own for you).


We really do not do that which we don't want to do...he heard in the third-party what he believed in himself. He did the NC email...

Now, why is it you haven't keylogged the computer to ensure continued NC, as well as porn use? Again, I believe you have your reasons...and I think "I'm the controlling, judgemental one" is a cop out.

Your half is equal to his half. My DH said the same about me and I put the porn-blocker program in place, along with a keylogger, anyway. I respected that DH could leave the marriage using his belief I was untenable to live with. He didn't.

He thanked me for helping him with his own weakness...took a long while...and he was in weekly counseling sessions...so he could see the trap that his own addictions are for him--how they continued the cycle that stuffed his pain by helping him to distract from it. He changed his choices to sit, instead, and see where his anxiety was coming from, trace it to the pain, the fear...and he's still working on it.

And at times, he distracts...has replaced the porn and other addictions with a computer game...not an online one...and he uses that instead. Addiction replacement...working his way to healthier ones...understanding his distractions actually add to his pain over time.

He said the same for me checking his cell phone. And this is a man who felt smothered, controlled and manipulated by women for more than three decades. If I had based my choices on his probable response, I wouldn't have done them...that would have been to feed my self-image, wouldn't it?

I can't control how my DH views me...I listen to know and let go. Helps that he sees me now in awe and deep admiration for MY changes...and that I didn't do the "knowing" stuff...keylogger, porn blocker or verifying to control him...I finally did it for me, our marital boundaries.

For The Marriage.

That was the big end to the back and forth, the tit for tat and giving to get...me, him and The Marriage.

Which is what I see as your boundary to not participate or POJA regarding his polysexual choices. That's a boundary to stay married. For protection of The Marriage.

I can see where the trust building requirements were very much like what an addict has to do to become sober...to not hang out with those he did his addiction with; to own and examine his stuff which led to the addiction; to develop a new circle of friends in sobriety...and what I don't see his him doing the first step: I admit my life has become unmanageable. I don't seeing him saying, "My actions are that of an addict." He's not doing the 12-steps (which include your high-cost trust rebuilding requirements), which is how he would build a new circle of sober friends.

Same for you, Amor...where's your new circle of friends of your marriage? The monosexual couples who you can socialize with regularly, which would become part of his new circle of friends?

When you said he stopped going to MC with you that he thinks you continue to go so you can "get over it", was that your assumption or his statement? I can't tell because you hold yourself to revealing your stuff plainly (which hits me in my admiration and appreciation place for ya!) that I can see; so my assumption would now that he said it. He believes it.

Ease the whiplash a bit, at all? See, first I sort out what is and isn't...posters state their stuff as fact...and I need to sift through it to find fact from stuff...which takes me back to when I did it, so I can see it. That also increases the likelihood I'll do it myself, too. Make assumptions. With you, you haven't really done it...doesn't mean you won't and I'll miss it...so I'm asking to get myself re-centered about the difference.

You can tell when I'm back in it myself...I start handing you sentences to say to WH to combat...argue...persuade...rather than share your stuff. I hear myself IRL doing "you" statements and stop and pull myself back to revealing with my "I" statements instead of making instructive "you" statements.

Here on MB, I understand the steps required to even begin recovery as...NC, transparency, counseling, exercises and a commitment to being in recovery together. My DH said he was encouraged and relieved when he would grasp, "We're in this together" when we were in conflict. Helped him also when he slipped into withdrawal (which we both did repeatedly in our whole marriage).

Maybe here's another step not described in my whiplash post...still there...to really go NC with OW/OM, we must not dwell in our thoughts on them, either. We choose, when an image or sound comes to mind, immediately think of our partners, children, in their place. Retrains the brain to know who's real and who's not...and your WH didn't commit to that...and his A's were predicated on his beliefs (he says), which means he had to choose to dwell in his thoughts and make the lifestyle his treasure.

And he still makes this choice. Not acting out...acting in...hence, his pain is distracted, his distraction/addiction put on hold...no pain work going on...and he knows this and has decided not to do the pain work at all.

Hence, my switch. Had a niggle even when I wrote what you quoted originally...my care is for you; you're here. You're doing your work, and I believe, it's part of your own life-long pain work, too. Because God said "here" and you really see more than you did before. You're ready.

Sure could cause enough fear in you to want to spend a year hiding in WH's stuff...that's for sure. That's a false comfort pattern...struggling to get from him IS your distraction...and I my prayer is for you to stop your distraction, replace them with healthier ones so you can get to your pain, too. Hey, this was my addiction, so I'm seeing it in you...my way. I'm gonna aid and abet you at times even as I'm telling myself I'm encouraging and helping you.

Keep me honest, Amor. I trust you're doing that, too--your half.

About more intimate conversations...which I hear you saying are sharing your stuff and him sharing his stuff...that you love who he really is, want to share in his perceptions, thoughts and perspectives in your shared experiences. Reasonable to me to have this struggle, then, because of where his thoughts dwell, what his beliefs are...that he cannot share because they cross a marital boundary.

I would think, then, that your struggle is his peace...because he can draw that line (blame you) and his fear of intimacy drops...there's still a secret part of him and hey, you made him.

He doesn't want you in the lifestyle, really...honestly, I don't believe that. He wants to continue to have false intimacy with you, to stay safe, not be exposed, his actions seen clearly as reality (and they already are).

He wants you to help him have a double life...and that crosses your personal boundary of honesty and The Marital boundary of radical honesty, doesn't it?

Now that you've found MB and understand requirements to recovery...the rules of care, time, protection and honesty...acts of love and respect as PART of recovery...and extraordinary precautions to protect marital weaknesses and personal ones...

What are you requiring now, since you know more now?

I think I reached more fully my whole arc from what you quoted in your post...finally got to it in that question (yay me). Thank you for your patience. I hope your metaphorical neck heals okay.

Mine's better.


To me, this is AWESOME sharing...says he fears you controlling him and wants to run away from it. Even distraction wouldn't be of aid to him if he gave away all his power to you. Makes sense to me.

You know he can't really give you any of his power, correct? You stay centered and respond, "I hear this is a life-long fear for you, believing you can be controlled through ultimatums, and your reaction is to get as far away from who you see as the controller for relief."

To me, that is a core part of the lifestyle issue...he's in "total control" of himself, his choices, and since he believes there is no emotional attachment, there is no emotional blackmail.

Each listen and repeat you choose to do hands back his power, his choices...by highlighting them, not actually giving them back...he may see them in your hands--they aren't there. Can't be. Everyone has freewill all the time. We certainly experience a majority of our lives at times as if it isn't.

Each moment of each day your WH is choosing not to physically participate in that lifestyle. His control, his power. You can not make him choose differently. He has a higher payoff at stake...and that's you, Amoret, and his family and self-image to others.

He's not in that higher payoff, btw.

Transparency is to keep us honest when we choose to stop acting destructively...it's for us, part of our redemption, our amends, and protecting our weaknesses. I can see why you didn't ask about it...he's not really remorseful, isn't shamed by who he was a year ago...because he believes he's the same person, you're the problem, and has suspended his actions until you get on board with that.

That's on the surface...underneath...he's been seen by you and a counselor (partial authority) for what he hid, his secrets, and he didn't die, wasn't shamed to death...and his expectation that he will be, btw, keeps that cycle of shame going...and you've accepted him, his real self, and beaten self-image, warts and all.

To me, that's the part of our hunger for one another...which blew me away enough to choose to change my actions, my beliefs. Was the same for my DH...because he expected me to finally divorce; or if he recommitted, to torture him with shame...and instead, I shared my own with him.

That's gotta be the higher payoff actually in play, the hidden one here...he could be loved for who he really is, then maybe, he could love himself.

Okay, I didn't mean to state all that as fact...I'm looking inside me and talking about YOUR WH. Sorry 'bout that.


Now you know you're half of trust...you choose to trust or not...his half is choosing to rebuild your trust or not...no "have to's" because those are fantasy.

There is no privacy in marriage, really. There's what you do in the bathroom and that's pretty much it. The rest is marital...which is why we don't continue to hold secrets, makes them marital ones...don't participate, your half, in them.

Then you're living a double life, aren't you?

He already is an adult. You've already caught your false payoff in seeing him not as an adult. Good catch.

I'm repeating you so you can see where you, also, have fantasy in perspective...you used to...back then. And btw, your counselor is only half your therapy...you're the other half. You can say, "This isn't helping me. I want more from you." Negotiate your own therapy and wellness.


Seeing MC backing you up or WH up isn't realistic. It's a very tiny DJ...and hides information from yourself. Does that mean, in her response, that her hubby would have spent four years in the lifestyle? She assumes her H's stuff, which isn't healthy for you. She has no clue what her H would or wouldn't do after doing what he didn't do. That's my opinion.


Next DJ spotting...and this is because you won't see how awesome your choices are, or how terrible they might be, due to choosing an assumptive perspective. "Of course I insisted"...most BW do not...if the WH is clean, they don't go...they buy into not doing their half, exercising their power, based on what their FWH does or not. No "of course" about it...except for you, that's of course...and yet, for you enforcing healthy personal boundaries, there are some you do not...and I think that's where we're going...because my belief (from knowing you in your posts) is if I was aware like you are, strong and assertive, that I wouldn't have made the choices I did...which may include, not saving my marriage four years ago? Hmmm.) I dunno. It's how you're helping me and the "of course" was a flag to me...and your statement of reality, ownership and your power.

Are you saying you believed previously in privacy in marriage...like inherent individual privacy? What do you believe now?

Which brings me back to the MC you chose...and finding a new one who specializes in sexual addiction. I say this because the expertise matters...counseling many, like Dr. Harley has in his years, which began with counseling addicts, changes your experience.

Addicts do not like boundaries...because they were misconstrued to them as children...they were selfish demands, real ultimatums...and like me, we don't get the healthy side when we're mostly exposed to the unhealthy side, the misuse. Part of the all or nothing I grew up with...saw the 0 degree application and the 180 degree application...didn't even understand the 90 degree place existed.

Which is why I live by that protractor now...apex of our experience is at the 90-degrees in God's design.

Makes sense that's where we would be closest to him, IMO.

In your list of statements...I had a thought. Pre-2003 (and maybe later), your experience of life and marriage was what? Your life was good, connected, fulfilling? I ask because that's one thing I didn't have to hold me back from changing. Others here have that...they were content and satisfied with their self-image, maybe because it was far more aligned with their true selves...I don't know...so the loss of that marital state prior to being blown apart is nearly unbearable to grieve. I was wondering if you really loved who you were, how you defined yourself, what your life experience was...because you have this clarity going, this awareness, ownership in place...so I'm at a loss when I see you defining yourself through WH...again, we know the payoff and that it's false...yet I continue to perceive you doing it.

If you base your choice to act from your code of honesty on him leaving, then you are acting to control. If you don't...if you know that secrets make us sick...to feed self-image is like a tapeworm that can't get enough because it's not real...then you won't choose to do so.

If you were to expose and share to punish, make him feel shame or guilt, to get him to get it...then you would also be crossing your boundary of respect. Funny how the actions we take can look the same from the outside and be so drastically different on the inside.

I really like that you ponder and wonder, turn over, and consider. Would make sense then when he crosses your boundary of consideration for your stuff.

And when you're doing it, too...by not considering your stuff, only his, eh?

Same signal, different information being delivered by it.

Consider some more about why him lying about you hits you dead square in the chest. Who he lied to were in the lifestyle...participating in fantasy...what they thought or didn't about you didn't matter...they are actively lying to themselves to be in the lifestyle...WH isn't unique in distracting for pain management. So why is this a large issue with you, equal, possibly, to him lying to you for four years?

Your reaction is valid and important...this is probing further, not judging you (I think you already know this of me, so it's my double-check of myself in front of you, 'k?).

And I perceived you believe you only got his apologies, his remorseful statements from perceiving your idea to tell a new female friend of his infidelities, is that correct?

That would be a DJ, btw.

Wouldn't be mine 'cuz I asked. Neener neener.


Thank you, Amoret's WH, for your episode. God works. No matter what. I'm grateful for you being here, Amoret, and I believe it takes what it takes for you to arrive where you've always belonged...right here. Right where you are today.

Thank you, Amoret, for choosing to search out knowledge, other perspectives, and your bravery in sharing with us and yourself. I take that to mean that even when we aren't "doing to help others" we do for others, too. Inadvertent, still potent. Your life experience may have been and be focused on others to be of aid, give succor and acknowledgment. What you do for yourself does that, too.

Filing for divorce is not being divorced. It's a process. Takes time...you can change your mind many times during the process...and I'm not fully onboard with it from my own fear because Dr. Harley said we can even POJA divorce...which is terrific for my own marriage...so maybe we can focus on the predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements which end as divorce being the final one.

Maybe the first one could be to stop violating your code of honesty and helping to hide WH's A's? Maybe when you take all the steps, you'll learn a new dance on the way...and no one can tell how it ends...which is why we let the outcome go.

{{{{{Gloomy Amoret}}}}} They don't call recovery a rollercoaster of emotions for nuttin', woman!

LA

Just want to let you know that I am here: thinking, praying for clarity, pondering what you have suggested and the topics that came up/gelled for me during a long talk with my husband on Friday morning.

The themes:

1) You are right about the parental dynamic predominating in his experience. That became clearer to me during our talk.

2) His use of pornography continues. "Not often." On the office computer at work. Reason: I didn't withhold permission. "You told me you couldn't live with an active polysexual. This is 'passive.'"

3) I was struck by his tremendous loneliness and isolation. During the 2 years he didn't use pornography and repressed his fantasies, even though he was doing it out of faithfulness to his religious experience, he did not share his struggles with anyone--no small church-related men's support group, nothing. "You were it"--meaning that I was the only one he shared with. "You can't talk about temptation unless you are already victorious. Not if it's something you are still struggling with."

My current ruminations center around

1) The ramifications of my new goal (since around April) to no longer keep "bad secrets."

2) My gratitude to him for struggling against his fantasies and his pornography habit for those two years, and my regret that I was not aware at the time of how hard a thing that was for him.

3) My desire to be his "one and only," explicitly excluding pornography and fantasies of other women.

Still thinking.

Still thinking. Tomorrow (well, here it's after midnight, so today) is 1-year anniv. of D-day.

Thanks for being here, LA.

Amoret

Hi, LA. This is a follow-up/update post to one I wrote in the wee hours of the 28th, so check that if you didn't see it.

Thanks so much for all the input and help. I didn't say earlier how grateful I am for your sharing so much about your marriage and your husband. Thank you for entrusting me with that.

I also want to thank you for pointing out the parenting theme. I think this is really key for the dynamic of my marriage.

Now for the update. H and I talked further on Sunday morning (a follow-up to our good conversation on Friday morning). I talked a little about verification/transparency/passwords/etc--the stuff I didn't know to ask last summer.

He said it would be like one of those things parolees wear to notify law enforcement when they've gone more than a certain distance from their homes. Which I think is part of the parental vs. partnering dynamic.

He said, "If that's what it takes to be in a relationship, I'm not going to be in that relationship."

I can't find (on the MB website) the detailed list of steps that are supposed to precede recovery, so I ordered that book ("Surviving an Affair") of Dr. Harley's, too.

I'm going to read that book (I told H this--he said, "I'm telling you in advance that I'm not necessarily going to do everything he says people should do"), then make an appointment for both of us to talk to the counselor we've been to about:

1. pornography's impact on attitudes toward sex, and pornography's impact on marriages
2. what pornography does for my H/what his use of it does for me
3. what sexual addiction is
4. the parental vs. partnering dynamic
5. transparency/attitudes about passwords, etc. Privacy in marriage.
6. Revealing (his doing it himself, my doing it without his permission)
7. Double life/bad secrets/self-image vs. self
8. ?? referral to counselor who specializies in sexual addiction

To me, the tendency my husband has (the Asperger's aspect) to see other people as just what meets the eye/"the surface" and to expect them to actually be that, and to experience him that way, is related to his use of pornography.

(When I asked him "why" about the pornography, he said, "I don't get an erection. It's not sexually exciting to me. It's to know other bodies are out there, and to appreciate their beauty."

("They are not just 'bodies out there'. They are real women."

("Yes, but they don't know I'm looking at them. They were paid to be photographed. They enjoy being admired.")

Of course it (the thinking of other people as just surfaces) is also related to his ability to conceptualize sex as a friendly, casual hobby. "Something harmless and minor" that should not affect our marriage--was how he characterized his As in an email to me dated 10/3/07, a few days before he FINALLY went to NC. ("No contact," not North Carolina.)

Where he's still at now, conceptually.

I think you are right about my rather being right than married. It may be that he would be, too!

About revealing without his consent: I have spent so much time cultivating the idea that I am the good person doing things for/putting up with/making life good for a "lesser," damaged person that I do not trust my judgment enough to do anything because it would be good for him.

I am thinking about what it means to be honest on my own behalf, not keep any bad secrets of my own (for instance, that I'm implicated in things that are unethical/immoral?).

I am still puzzling it out.

What you have said sounds a lot like what some of my other confidantes have said: "He'll never know what he's done until he loses you completely"; "Your leaving would be his meeting with reality--it would play out for him the true consequences of his actions."

I think we are back, in our marriage, to status quo pre-A, except that he is giving me a lot more of his time; we are having a lot more sex; we have survived a harrowing year together. His thinking has not changed.

As far as his likelihood of lapsing: MORE likely since now he knows how and knows people 'in the lifestyle.' Anything is easier when you've already done it.

LESS likely since he knows how much it hurt me and what he had to suffer through. He realizes that that behavior risks his marriage. Maybe also "less" because he's finding more enjoyment in his marriage and would regret losing it more.

Since his thinking has not changed (he doesn't see sex any differently or have exclusivity as an ideal) my only safeguard is his gritting his own teeth.

Just another unrelated thought: I have said many times to my kids, "I'm raising you. I'm not raising your Dad." (About why I was "enforcing" my rules on them and not him.) And to myself, "He didn't get married to have a mother."

But (another unrelated thought) it is SUCH a relief (since April) to no longer pretend to be "better" than I am. To not wonder, "Would a perfect wife ask for this thing that I would like? Couldn't she get along without it?" Or "Yes, a good husband would do this, but of course I can't hold H. to THAT standard."

Well, of course I still wonder those things, but now I am consciously rejecting that line of thinking.

OK. Hanging in there. Thanks so much for the hug, the empathy, and the encouragement.

Amoret

More sleep, Amor...be good to yourself, 'k?

(That's projection, you know...'cuz my insomnia has come back!)



Now that you can hear parental perspective and tones...your next step is to sort out for yourself what is partnering, not parenting.

You can tell parenting because it wants to make or get from others. To protect, stop or start them. I've noticed that when I dwell on what ifs or if onlys, my fear rises and so does my own childish perspective...so I will be more likely to go to DH and say, "If only you'd do/say this, I'd feel better." That's the signal for me...that I'm not in my center, my power...so that I share with DH, "I haven't been feeling loved, engaging or interesting lately."

Which is interesting to DH.

LOL

Funny how we work.

Okay...so partnering is owning your stuff as yours, sharing your stuff (not based on possible response)...and handing back what isn't yours. Takes awareness (which you've got in spades), dedication to your goal (and not slipping into a hidden goal of changing him), and practice, practice, practice.

I even talk about not practicing...actually, we came up with a phrase, "This feels old to me right now"...old habits coming back...and by sharing that, we're new again. You really become teammates again in newness. Ask your WH to help you partner by saying what he hears.

He can have a base parent/child relationship with everyone. Or he can learn to partner, too. His choice.

For me, the lure was really strong...lots of seeming power in mothering others...and I didn't just do it in my marriage or with my kids...did it at work, in groups...yech. I'm not loved any less for stopping that, btw.

Heehee.

I can't comprehend his work allow porn on business computers.

I think you hear his permissions based on his agreements with you...you...you...hear it in there? Can feeling like a stranglehold...where you constantly factor into his stuff...

and you really don't, 'k? Flip that inside out and say, "I know you're choosing to do harm to yourself and our marriage by looking at porn."

I wonder what his experience would be by giving up porn now and talking weekly with a counselor, instead of the way it was before?

Watch the lure of being his one and only...to share with. That's my DH, too, until counseling. That means we can make 'em or break 'em; again, by giving their power to us...don't take it. We are equal...and it's like alcohol to an alcoholic, this control giving and taking back stuff. Hands off.

The reality is they will share with whomever is willing to do the work to help manage their emotions...my DH talked to his sister often during crisis and has pretty much ignored her since.

We are one and onlys...because we are who we are...we are irreplaceable, 'k? We don't need to horde our partners' stuff, parent them to stay safe...as you experienced, parenting is NOT safe for us or our partners.

Excellent new goal in not keeping bad secrets...looks good on you.

Thinking about what you weren't aware of when...when I read one of your first posts you said you were pretty much living separate lives...what is it like now? What is different in the last year since DDay (thank you for being here on MB on your DDay anniversary, btw)?

There's a false payoff in distance...for me, it's the lure I'm gonna be safe as long as I don't get too close...or too far away. Good to break my obsessing when it starts; lousy to feel connected deeply, which is what kickstarts my obsessing.

Fantasies of other women leads to A's...to living in fantasy...and partnering is in reality. Reasonable desire...not in your control. How about your fantasies? What if fantasizing your WH was different in specific ways, would that be the same as fantasizing about other women? Porn?

LA

Thank you right back for reading my sharing of all my stuff and my marriage. It's mutuality--you aren't being done for or to by me...I'm here because I need to be here with you for help in my own life, too. Nothing goes one way.

Keep that in mind when you share with WH...nothing goes one way. Not you doing to him, for him, about him...that you don't also receive instantly, within you. Doing for others is doing for ourselves. Connecting to others is connecting to ourselves. Doesn't make us egomaniacs...God's design, unalterable and inherent. We sure can live as if we go outward and fill up others and others fill us up. Not the truth though we sure can experience it as if it is that way.


Well, it would be if we volunteered for it...I know you see that...my listen and repeat would be, "I hear you're choosing to be married and feel burdened in requirements, is that correct?"

See, as children, we don't know we have a choice to be the child in our parental relationship. The alternative is inconceivable...it's like living or dying to be out on our at 8, 9, 10...terrifying. Fear covers up our reality. I believe Love lives in it.

You know the phrase "whatever it takes"? I believe this only exists in reality...whatever it takes to stay present, within your center, your half, is necessary and healthy. I think that's in partnering. To hear his stuff and not take it to mean anything but his opinion, about him, for him, from him...is really important. When you stay in that belief and act from it, then when you share, you aren't putting your stuff onto anyone else...it stays what it is...about you, for you, from you.

That total separateness can be heart-stopping to our control freak within. It can sound as if it is the antithesis of love, of what we know as love. Think of how you parent your adult children...this is the shift in focus we do to continue our relationship with them.

I think his statement about not choosing to act transparently for himself and the marriage (and the other stuff) was a healthy exchange. Doesn't mean he won't...he's saying right now, viewing it from here, he wouldn't.

I don't believe him...and you can choose to not believe him...for we often say "I won't do that" and do; or "I will do that" and don't. We don't know until we get there...and some days, we act from our code with ease...others, it's a struggle to not be reactive.

I hope you understand the normalcy of the ego in relation to his Asperbergers...how we operate at times based on false payoffs, convinced they are real ones...takes time and continuing to get the same down spiral as a result which increases the pain of not being aware to being aware.

My DH's porn addiction was about secrets, making others into two-dimensional beings, himself superior (your WH's statement about admiring their beauty is an admission of ego) and because my DH did this, he constantly felt others were trying to tear him down, make him inferior.

It's a cycle you can't escape until the pain is greater in re-experiencing it than it is in changing your choices.

I did two things simulataneously (and not for this purpose)...I eliminated my own DJs and asked DH to help me by pointing them out when he heard one...and I held myself to pointing them out when I said or thought them...and second, I began sharing when I heard them from him...in the mocking, the sarcasm, the putting down of others as groups or individuals or his great faceless mass of bodies.

Highlighting, not criticizing. We both were amazed how often each day these DJs affected our thoughts, hence, our emotions...and we began seeing the false payoffs.

It was a big change over time in my DH's perspective then. As he kept himself off of porn (I helped where I could), and upped his awareness...he went from a man who said four years ago, "I hate people. I wished I loved them like you do" to a man who connects in two-minute relationships at work with his customers...his employees...his bosses...and sees better them as individuals and doesn't take their stuff about him to feel superior or inferior.

And yeah, sometimes he swirls back into the old mindset...only he's outgrown it...doesn't fit...pinches him. And he shares with me when that does...takes a lot of listening to, "Hey, I realized today that..." conversations. I make sure to mind my own and share, too.

His choices to do his addictions (and porn usage becomes addiction level when he puts it ahead of his intimate relationship with you, his kids, etc.) is out of your hands. Which is why I urge you to add Alanon to your list of what you're doing, going to do, 'k?

I didn't see anything about talking honestly with your kids about what he's done and what you've done in your marriage. Is that on the goal list?

I believe we are still puzzling it out...no one right way to get to here or stay here. We're here. The John Bradshaw books (Healing the Shame that Binds Us) are terrific for identifying self-image from self and learning to live differently. He promotes healing your inner child...which helps greatly in all our relationships...and is where you learn to partner from self instead of parent from self-image.

How about not holding yourself to any secrets...when you have SF, say what it symbolizes to you...share what it is for you in regards for connection, admiration, acceptance, appreciation, going soul to soul...whatever it is...learn to speak where you haven't spoken before...and learn to not speak when you most likely would have.


I agree.


Do you mean his choice in not doing it now? Not your only safeguard...you are safe...if he chooses to attack your marriage with infidelity again, then you know what you will do...he won't slip it past you now...you have new tools, awareness and understanding. Won't be the same experience, and I hope then you will calmly file for divorce and separate immediately. He has knew tools, awareness and understanding, too. He knows he chooses.

You are safe, Amor...you will not die of a broken heart, abandonment or engulfment...you will choose your actions and the feelings will follow. You will survive and thrive...which can be a sorrowing part to all of this...seeing how ALL things come to pass...we don't pass...we're here, right now, all the way up to when we aren't.

Seeing his choices daily, clearly, is your goal. So you know you aren't making, getting, stopping or starting a thing in or about him, 'k? He's responsible. Nothing cannot make him responsible for his own choices.

Same limit on you, too...and same power. See within yourself if you feel daily betrayal from your choices now...or real relief from putting down his stuff as your determinant; what you do for you, what you lay out, as best effort, not all or nothing.

I'm so happy to hear your choice to not think in fantasy about the perfect wife and comparing your precious self to anyone...because you are incomparable. We all are. I hope as you're stopping the tear-down thinking comparisons, that you're replacing them with "Does this align with my code of honesty, consideration, respect and acceptance?" To do and not do...that's it. Won't make you safe, loved, respected or accepted by others. Will give you the constant experience of knowing you already are safe, loved, respected and accepted.

Find within your list your deal-breakers...listen to the belief behind it...pick these to hold yourself to...and if you choose to go along, to see, without requirements, know you have some in you...so go to honesty and share them. Ferret out more DJs, and why they seem so a part of your experience...where they nourish false intimacy.

And be okay with your fear of intimacy...even as you spot, know and share it, so do you act from intimacy, anyway.

How's the RC time (Recreational Companionship) going? What new interests have you guys done for the first time together (I get stuck on archery, could be motorcross or crosstitch...I dunno). Best way for me to get into partnering is competition...sounds weird, I know...brings me out of my parenting...and makes all my ego stuff easily seen by me.

Same thing for experiencing my DH as the talented, funny adult man he is (get to admire and appreciate), simultaneously seeing the child he was once...hearing those glimpses and flash backs...after 20 years together, some are new; some I've forgotten, and some I hear differently.

Because I'm making different choices.

Let yourself ripple, Amor...you already do, anyway. You're not doing it wrong, 'k? You're choosing, even when you're not choosing.

LA

Hello Amoret and LA; I just had to read your stories and I do understand SO much of what you have shared and currently living through; I am so sorry to hear of your pain and confusion over your dh's behavior and past infidelity.If your DH believes he will lose something from continuing his behavior then he will have to consider the consequences and choose to be kind, loving and faithful. If he does not have the "challenge" to change, then he might not.

Thankfully, I have not experienced it other than through porn with my ex-husband. He was a porn addict so I do understand that porn in itself is "lusting in your heart" and considered spiritual adultry. I have since remarried a dear godly man who suffered much physical/emotional and verbal abuse as a child. We have read "his needs/her needs" and began to understand the complexities of men and women in marriage. After years of counseling (for me) he refused to go to a female counselor or admit to a male counselor that he had any issue to work on...I was on a verbal abuse forum that has helped me see his behavior for what it is; a lashing out at past abusers and I was being abused by him now. I presented him with "an agreement" that told him what behaviors and speech that is considered to be abusive and that if it would not stop; that I would further consider separating from him. I told my husband very clearly that "this is it" OR ELSE. Mind you, my husband has not been unfaithful neither does he use porn at all...I would know.Verbalabuseforum; Patricia Evans) He said that this had little to do with his "healing" but I think it had MUCH to do with it and your comment on leaving him is very valid. We found out in Feb. 2007 that we were pregnant and expecting on his last birthday in Sept 2007. At 5 months gestation; we lost our son to stillbirth and that brought us together...a mutual enemy...PAIN and GRIEF. He has since gone to counseling with me...I can tell you that I have tried to diagnose him several times; we even looked into bipolar/manic depression and dissociation (from abuse) and since Nov 2007 he has been growing into a genuinely loving man and husband to me. A better father to our 7 yr old son and working on his parenting to his daughter (17 1/2) who lives with us.

Times like this had me longing for my single life or worse yet, I had to fight from thinking about my "first love" and even had to write a song to heal up after many years since seeing him over the loss of the relationship with him. I was fantasizing about going back to him if my DH would continue to treat me so badly. (G still loves me and would not treat me like this...)I did look him up on the web and don't you know it, I saw his picture and hardly recognized him!!! THANK GOD I was not attracted to him anymore. I finished writing the song called "To see you once again". (Heaven is where and when, I hope to see you once again") It started out titled "I've just got to let you go!"...

Sending hugs to both of you and my prayers are with you; this part of marriage is so hard. I really encourage you to pray for your husbands ...we can only move with love and compassion toward someone whom God also loves when we take them to prayer. Our hearts can be changed too; healing it possible.