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Here is a senior man in UK Karate, and a former friend and colleague of Squid had been going through a horrible divorce. Incidentally, also a good friend of Squid's OM....

Violence, jealousy...I don't know all the details here but it was an unpleasant scene in their relationship.

When it seemed he was to lose everything in the settlement he took his children to a beauty spot for a father's day treat, then he led a pipe from the exhaust into the car, and sat with his kids, calming them, talking to them, consoling them as he killed them and himself by gassing.....

This is a man whose hand I have shaken, with whom I have been on smiling terms.

That this was an inexcusable act of black evil is inarguable, but it has certainly caused me to reconsider my advice to people.

Perhaps recovery should ALWAYS be attempted, even if it is only to deflate the anger balloons held by antagonist spouses during such times of adultery and divorce ? Just perhaps those poor babies would now have eighty years of blessed life before them if the spouses had tried to recover using MB in all humility ?

* sigh * So very sad.

Bob - I concur about attempting recovery.

Beyond that, it seems that amidst all the problems, what is missing is a Savior.


God bless.

Yes, VERY sad. BUT, I disagree wholeheartedly with your thoughts here. Recovery should not always be attempted. ANY person that is violent of attempts violence on their family should be denied access...period.
A man does not slaughter his two children because recovery was not attempted...he did so because he was a dangerous animal.


This paragraph says all that needs to be said for this disgusting piece of human excrement.

There was a similar incident many years ago in the state where I live, only it was the mother who drove with the children to her in-laws and set the car ablaze. Only she survived, as the children could not be freed from their safety seats. I believe that the father had to witness the atrocity.

I think that a person who would commit such a heinous act would be a poor candidate for marriage recovery. Anyone willing to use their children as pawns in a selfish, deadly game has serious problems that would preclude their being a good spouse, and the divorce was probably for a valid reason.

I look at stories like that and think what a shame they could not have been stripped of their parental rights before the tragedy occurred.

Just my .02

PK

What these stories emphasize to me is how very devastating adultery is to its victims. It is absolutely the worst thing that can happen to someone; as bad as rape or the death of a child. Victims have nervous breakdowns, go insane, kill themselves, kill others and commit acts of violence that would never occur to them beforehand in reaction.

Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming this horrendous evil on the adulterer, but it is important to note that adultery can drive victims insane, and with some betrayed spouses, that is a VERY SHORT DRIVE. I suspect it was a very short drive in the case above.

I know perfectly rational, sane, decent, law abiding people on this forum who were so distraught at the news of their spouses adultery that they beat up, punched either their WS or the OP. [I beat up my husband, in my business suit, on the side of the road in busy traffic when I caught him with his OW - okok, maybe I am little insane ] If perfectly normal, law-abiding people can be driven insane with grief, then imagine how our less stable brethren deal with this horror?

Adultery is a horrendous, evil crime that effects people in different ways.

I'm sure some of you heard the headlines of the man in Northern California that beat up a 2 year old in the street with people watching. Eventually a police officer shot the man in the neck, he died. The 2 year had long died before the man was shot.

This may not have made the newspapers yet, but a friend of ours is in that county's police dept. and he told us that the wife of this man was pregnant, had cheated and told him that not only was the baby she was carrying not his, but the 2 year old that he had been raising was also from a different OM.

He beat that child to death because of the adultery. I won't give any other of the gruesome details of the condition of the body that were shared with us, but I'm sure you can imagine.

Words cannot even describe how that made me (and I'm sure everyone else involved or that knows/hears about it) feel.

MEDC - what is missing is a Savior. For the same reason that Jesus was "slaughtered" for us, by us.

But without Christ we are all little more than "animals" driven by our OWN attempts to "control" our lives and rationalize our behaviors.

It IS sad.

But WITH God, all things ARE possible, including recovery from the terrible devastation of adultery.

MEDC

This needs careful discussion, because I am in no way defending this man's evil but...


....Brian wasn't a dangerous animal when I have met him. Just a "bloke" as we say over here. I wonder if the highly vindictive behaviour unleashed his basest instincts? I clearly ALSO would never want a a man who had used violence to be granted access to hi kids but as I understand it there was never a civil discussion about this. I see the whole situation as provoking a man who had previously used violence when provoked.

This couple by all accounts had a particularly unpleasant and adversarial split up and divorce. I can't help thinking that even a failed attempt at recovery might have let some steam out of the hatred they had for each other and so those babies might still be with their mother now...

You know that saying that is used on here sometimes " do you want to be RIGHT or do you want to be married?".

It occurs to me that similar is true of divorcing:

"do you want revenge or do you want a divorce?"

Maybe I am just advocating making some effort at diplomacy in all tense adversarial situations so that the most extreme behaviour can be avoided. I dunno...

I just ache for those kids....

This reminds me of the guy who jumped out of the apartment block on holiday in Greece. Threw the kids out with him but the little girl and the father survived. Not everyone loses their mind over infidelity but it obviously unhinges otherwise 'normal' people. I think it is so incredibly sad.

I am not a passionate person, in fact I am normaly the most even tempered woman you would ever find.
When WH told me about his A, i called him a word starting with C that I NEVER use, I drove recklessly home, I smashed photo's, oranaments belonging to him, got the axe and attacked a statue, several of his hobbies book, and certificates.
THEN I broke into his MSN and abused his OW, then broke into his bebo and posted that he was a hypocrite and had been shagging her, then used the same accoint to abuse OW on her bebo in a away that looked like he had done it. And I did it so all their workmates would know. I would have attacked the car, but decided it would be good in a divorce settlement.
It took me 3 days to apologise to WH and OW.

Yes, infidelity unhinges people

Bob, If it was part of this man's "basest instincts" to hurt his child...he was a dangerous animal.

While I recognize that infidelity can cause a lot of pain...and at one time I sat with a gun on my forehead...I believe with all of my being that ANYONE that takes the lives of their children as an act of ANGER and VENGENCE is a horrible person that put on a different face for those he knew. Most likely it was only those closest to him that saw his true nature (perhaps it played into the reason for divorce)....and I truly hope that while the babies are with God that this father is suffering immeasurable pain. He deserves it and more.

I am all for diplomacy...but that does not mean an attempted recovery in all cases.

Perhaps this stuff is different for me Bob. I was at the morgue every week...sometimes every day (I worked a wagon and we had the wonderful duty to transport victims) and I saw the babies stacked four high on shelves awaiting autopsy. I have ZERO tolerance for anyone that hurts children. They are evil to their core.

You won't find me arguing MEDC. I hope there's a special place in hell for child abusers and killers.

Just looking at ways to prevent abusers from reacting like Brian did. Could his sick instincts have been kept in check during a more civilised and less punitive divorce ? He never hurt his kids before.

I personally can't believe they buried him at a church...one of Squids friends and old Karate colleague actually attended his FUNERAL. Where does THAT come from ????

Shameful. He should have been dumped in a landfill.

MEDC - you raise an interesting topic with this "positional statememt."

Bob's "positional statement" was that an attempt to recover a marriage that has suffered infidelity is always "worth a shot," as in "Doing something POSITIVE is infinitely better than doing nothing."

But what you are speaking to is the "base inherent nature of ALL people," which in my opinion is spoken of as the "sin nature."

Biblically speaking (and you know me), there ARE people who have been "Given Over" to evil and who do NOT have a future wherein they will accept Christ and, thereby, God's forgiveness.

We all DO live in the world with such people, and the father or mother who kills their children is in the same "league" in my mind as the current crop of "Islamic Terrorists."

Yet many propose "negotiating" with them as if they will somehow be convinced to "see things our (meaning 'right') way."

We CAN negotiate with them, and we MIGHT be able to stave off some future violence, we might even convince them to be "good citizens of the world" and not kill other people.

The SAME sort of thought is what Bob was talking about in a "nothing to lose, but everything to possibly gain" sort of attempt at recovery from infidelity. At the very least, OUTSIDE people might (as in counselors, attorneys, etc.) be involved and AWARE of the emotional states of the husband and wife, and might be in a position to intervene in, or diffuse. potential violent responses.





MEDC, I don't necessarily disagree with your statement, as we ALL have a "horrible person" within us that is part of our sin nature.

However, there is also something to be considered about "temporary insanity," which I believe is a condition that virtually ALL Betrayed Spouses (who are truly in love with their spouse) flirts with, perhaps even stepping a foot "over the line" before jumping back onto the "sane side." It is THAT condition that I think Bob is speaking to. That "temporary insanity" IS temporary and that recovery efforts might just provide the "lifeline" needed for the person to get back to the "sane side" wherein they CAN begin to start thinking rationally again.




This is "different," MEDC. You are describing an "after the fact" issue while Bob is attempting to address the "before the fact" issue.

That's the inherent "problem" with the police. They are NOT designed to be a "preventive force," other than by "accident." They are designed to react "after the fact," and perhaps through that intervention prevent something from escalating or to prevent the "perp" from hurting others.

The COURTS on the other hand, let them out. THAT is where MY anger is directed these days...on the "bleeding hearts" who are more interested in the person who HAS already harmed children and THEY are SUPPOSED TO BE the system that removes those people from the general public. That's "intervention after the fact."

Bob is trying to get to the "intervention before the fact," on the basis of the "temporary insanity" that can grip a lot of people going through infidelity.

My "tongue-in-cheek" suggestion for "after the fact" offenders...construct a lot of prisons in the "Anwar" section of Alaska and put them all there. Escape if you want to...but there they stay. Perhaps when the technology allows for it, I would "move" them to prisons on the Moon....escape if you want to.

"Before the fact," however, intervene. Attempt recovery regardless of whether or not is "seems like" it would be "successful" in terms of staying married. Put "at fault" divorce BACK as the main "test" for divorce. Put God back into the schools and teach disciple and morals to all the "skulls full of mush." You get the idea.

God bless.

FH, I do NOT think that these are the basest instincts of people...I was quoting Bob.

A positive step can be taken without attempting to recover the marriage.

I also do not agree that we all have a horrible person within us.

And while I see your point about "after the fact" I suggest that the man was no good to start with...it was just hidden. Your concept of policing is accurate for some jurisdictions and not others. I can tell you that we would nearly as much time trying to prevent (heck, that is the function of patrol) as we did reacting to crime.

I understand where Bob was going with this...I just don't buy this is an isolated incident...I have seen too many things happen where the dirty little secrets that were well hidden for years finally come out.

I somehow missed if this man was the BS or the WS...or do we know?

I am friends with the mother of a man/BS who last Dec. 14th killed his young children as they lay sleeping in their bed in his/their home. He then shot his x-wife, whom he divorced end of Oct '07, and her lesbian lover in their bed in the apartment where they had been living for a couple of months. Then he drove about a half hour away in another county, started driving erratically, and shot himself in the head/commit suicide as he was being pulled over by the sheriff.

Six months later and his mother is in a deep depression...still trying to reconcile all that she knew about her son and his love for his children, as well as what lead up to him being able to do that and whether or not there was something she could have done differently to prevent it. She deeply loved her son and her grandchildren and the loss it immense.

He wanted his family to be perfect and he saw the pain his children were experiencing. It all happened way too fast...from D-day in late July to divorce in Oct....the whole shock was so great. I had suggested Marriage Builder's to his mom but she said he wasn't interested in reading anything on the internet. He was a bright man, a teacher. He was in a doctorate program and a local University.

Although his wife quickly had given up primary custody to him, she seemed to be starting to regret the decision and in an apparent effort to save face she was about to start to paint him as abusive (which there had never been any evidence to suggest) and regain full custody while messing with the kids minds and poisoning them against their father. He was in a deep depression and may have been not taking his Anti-d meds as prescribed. He did have a few skelatons in his closet...so to speak, that she could have brought out with which to hurt him.

There's lots more to these stories than what is reported in news reports. Obviously, both men were troubled. But neither one may have been 'normally' violent monsters. It is also deep pain and depression which can trigger such thoughts and actions. God knows what was in their hearts and minds in those moments. In this man's mind he may have thought he was sparing them all a very painful life...however warped his thinking may have been.

I know when I was in the depths of my personal BS h@ll, I would fantasize acts that would have put me on death row...But by the grace of God I never acted on any of those fantasies...none involved my kids...I never could imagine harming my own children, and ultimately it was probably thinking of the pain it would cause them that I knew acting on my fantasies wasn't worth it and would help no one. I am not sure some people in that frame of mind can fathom the ultimate consequences of their actions.

I think through their depression these men must have been feeling extremely hopeless about any future life for themselves and their children. One can write it off as being selfish delusion or revenge...but only God knows their hearts, I certainly do not.

Hi Trix


I know more by the grapevine than is availalable in the news but I won't write unsubstantiated gossip on a board that google can search.

Juts know it wasn't a very happy marriage from the get go.

Ok, BP.

Here is another link with only slightly more detail.:

Another article

Nothing surprising there. Not quite the "bloke" he seemed to be huh??? Monster.


He didn't LOVE the children or his wife. He was their tormentor...obviously incapable of love.

The poor children.

MEDC Ryan is the adult child of his W from a previous M, who along with his MIL conspired to split the marriage up as viciously as possible.

Not justifying Brians violence towards him but smacking an adult is different to smacking a child.

But I will not defend this man. I just think it is simplistic to define a person as either an ogre or a saint with nothing between.

Brian was not my choice of friend, and the sport in the UK has thrown up its share of vile men, God knows ( he was a good friend of Squid's OM remember)but until he committed that evil action, he is a man you'd have met in a bar and not passed comment on negatively IMO.

I wish his evil state of mind had been defused before he felt entitled to murder those babies, that's all.