cat, I'm so glad that you have LA here. I know that I still have a long way to go, but her faith in what I could do when I wasn't so sure helped me have faith in myself and make hard choices. And I've fallen short, too, so that's where amends came in. That we can start fresh in our marriage and in our liofe every day. I've shared that with you in my posts to you, too, that I have so much faith in what you can do.

That was a lot that you shared, and thanks for being brave to do that. I thought I was the only one that wished my H gone, not caring how. Watching movies with characters who were widows and thinking how lucky they were. In denial about how blessed I was to have H's presence. Just sometimes, most of the time I was happy H was alve and kickin'! But at those times I let my resentment steal the joy from my day.

What do you think about getting the medication adjusted? Or maybe IC more often?

My IC has been gone for the last month. I was supposed to go Tuesday, but D17's dentist appointment ran late so I had to cancel. I go back to check meds on 6/27.

I know I sound really pathetic right now about the dishonesty and stuff, but it has been my coping skill for 30 years. Like any other abuse situation, I do what I have to, to minimize negative reactions. Personally, I don't give a flip if I'm honest with H. I've tried hundreds of times to be honest with him and he shuts me down nearly every time because he doesn't want to hear (if it's about him) or because he is always right and I am always wrong, so whatever I'm honest about, he tears down, and I'm left feeling worse. So in my opinion, I've given him plenty of chances to allow me to be honest with him, and he's not buying. That said, I have stepped outside my comfort zone more and more. A year ago, I never could have admitted my money problem to him, and I learned I didn't get yelled at. So I'm progressing.

Now, that doesn't mean he doesn't look down on me for sharing my shortcomings. I get that shake of the head with the disgusted grimace of his - a lot. But I expect it now and no longer hope to approach the level of sharing and trust that other people enjoy. He has to look down on me to be ok with himself; I get it.

But when it comes to my daughter, I'm more interested in helping her survive childhood without hating herself, than in teaching her to be honest above all else. I've seen firsthand what self-doubt does to a person when the parent doesn't approve of you, and I don't want her spending the next 50 years trying to overcome her father's disapproval. Sure, I agonized over it, but in the end, I felt the best solution for us, since I'm not strong enough to stand up to him all the time and become one of those couples who never stops fighting - because that's what we will be when I start doing that, as he will not be backing down and he never accepts my arguments, is to urge her to be honest about things that won't tear down her self-esteem when she has to confront Dad, and choose certain other things that we won't disclose.

For instance, when I found out she was emailing those pictures of herself a few months ago...I get why she was doing it. She's never had sex, barely even kissed, while half her friends are doing it regularly. Hasn't had that many boyfriends. She had gone through a lot of bad stuff this year concerning boys. So she was reaching out to get some strokes from a guy she felt safe with, to help her feel more desirable and as...'with it' as most of her friends. Bottom line, I was upset, but I understood.

Her dad, on the other hand, always assumes the worst of her first, and then maybe relents and says she isn't acting like a sl*t or coming on to boys or trying to sneak around or...you get the idea. And I can guarantee, with his low opinion of females, that if he knew about the pictures, he would never respect her for the rest of her life. And he would keep throwing it in her face. I've tried telling him about this stuff, but he won't change; he won't do what it takes to be closer to her. So I have to affirm that, given the father she has, withholding some things from him - but at the same time getting a lecture from me about how this is never a solution to get out of a bad situation in any other aspect of her life - is in her best interest. You'll just have to trust me on this.

Jayne, about your question...I just don't know. You know I have no self-esteem. On a clinical level, I understand I'm a capable person. But that doesn't pull me out of the self-loathing pit I'm in. So I really just don't think I'm there yet, to hear the hard words. Let me get on the ADs for another 6 months to see what they're doing, cos I don't feel anything yet. I will continue to find ways to assert myself, and be honest, and try to detach my self-worth from his negativity. But it's had 30 years to soak in, on top of the crappy childhood I had, so I'd like a little more time, please.

I'm a card-carrying member of the Cat fan club...

That's not going to change.

I do restrain myself from trying to reach through my monitor and throttle you--because of the way you injure and abandon yourself at times. For you to better to yourself.

That would be me relating to you, seeing me in you, Cat.

I'm thinking cemented eggshells...is that even possible? Would that make an analogy into an oxymoron...'cuz I know it takes one to know one.

When did my suicidal thoughts stop? When I went to Alanon and found MB (like a week apart). That was nearly 30 years of flashes, images, scenarios in my mind finally done. What a relief.

I wasn't weak...I believe I was doing to myself what I did to others...so I pass that on...and it doesn't mean, ever, you gotta do it. You know that. Threat of throttle notwithstanding.

You are my equal, and Jayne's equal, and EO's equal...and your entire fan club's equal...in every way. You can't change that.

What you can do is choose to believe it to your marrow, CP. Seriously. It's true. God didn't make no junk ever. You know this...

I can't help but think of ways to get you out of there, get you the space and time you need...I don't know if battered women's shelters have grants--I know they have resources. I know they must have transition guides, plans, something...maybe it's at a national level?

I believe you've thought of a thousand ideas already...I'm asking to show I have these hidden assumptions about the way the world works in me. I know how thorough and dedicated you are. This is me with my wishfulness showing.

You've made a lot of progress...and nothing you do now takes away from what you've done...that's the nice part of the past being unchangeable...keeps your progress intact.

You've been brave, honest, studious, understanding, and you've shared yourself here on MB...I don't get the low self-esteem...or no self-esteem, I think you said. I wonder if you've blocked H's love deposits for so long (maybe to also block his major withdrawals), you block it all...even your own appreciation, admiration, attention and acceptance?

Or did you wait to see an outcome before you recognized yourself? Did you say, "If this works then"...those if-then statements...and when he didn't change, that means YOU failed?

Please allow your focus to be on you, feel how well you love and don't block from over 30 years of habit (and can you pick my house and move for me, too?).

Leave his grimaces and gestures alone...they are his...about him...and you know all about people who disparage, snark, discount and degrade--they do so to themselves constantly, inside, and show it to no one. Maybe not even hear it going on...and still feel the pain from those beliefs.

You don't have to solve anyone...not even your DD17. Nobody is broken, 'k? Please pull your focus back onto you and do not dwell in possible responses...you're living in very real emotions being handed to you by your brain for what didn't happen...doubles it.

That's what happens with eggshells, we experience what we feared anyway...even if it doesn't come to pass.

Learn to leave when he rants and you build resentment. Leave the room...and if you resent watching tv next to him, then don't. Not now. Read, walk, talk to a neighbor, listen to birds, do shadow puppets...and smile, know your own glory and significance...as we do. Easy for us others to see and appreciate...HURTS US to see you not do so.

Are you saying, "I acknowledge to myself--I'm valuable and worth sharing. I'm choosing not to right now?"?

Is it parentifying or spousification?

LA

Thanks LA. Lots to think about as always.

Cat, just wanted to let yu know I was thinking about you today. You remember YAL, how painful it is to watch someone suffer through being abused. When there are other options. You are so special, hon.

Just wanted to let everyone know I've been thinking about what you said about D17 and her cavities, it's been eating at me. She went to her second of 4 appointments Tuesday, and H called me when I was on my way to get her, asked where I was (as always - sorry, small DJ), I said taking D17 to the dentist. That's all I said. So then my guilt really started eating into me because I lied by omission. So that night, I told him the truth, that she asked me not to tell him because she feels he criticizes her for everything, and she didn't want to get chewed out. Like I've said, when it's about D17, he's willing to change himself. Anyway, the next night, he casually said "so how did the dentist go?" She looked at me like a deer in the headlights, and just as casually, said "I got some cavities filled." He said "Really? Was it scary?" She said "No, I just turned up my MP3 player so I couldn't hear the drill." And that was it.

A year ago, he would have given her a 30-minute lecture and she would be in tears.

She did ask me later how he knew she went to the dentist. I told her he called when I was on my way to get her. Now, if I was completely healed, I would have told HER the full truth, that I told him that she asked me not to tell him, but I figured she could do fine without that knowledge. I know it's manipulation on my part, but I think their interaction has given her a little bit more respect for him, which might make their relationship a little better.

Not perfect, but better. And like LA tells me, my perception of what he will do, and my subsequent leaving him out of the equation, robs me of my integrity because I don't know for sure he will disappoint me. So I gave him a chance, and it worked out. I think all three of us learned something.

cat:

I know what you mean by with holding information to protect your daughter. I'm guilty of doing the same thing.

It's very hard to fight maternal instinct and put the marriage relationship first.

I struggle with it all the time, and I just wanted you to know that you aren't alone.

My justification is that I'm maintaining a more peaceful household, and a part of me is resentful that I have to do one to get the other.

I guess we all have our separate struggles, but I wanted you to know that I get you. I understand how you got to where you are, and I understand why it isn't okay with you too.

Thanks, Soolee. That means a lot.

Cat, way to go on the O&H, on the feeling fear and speaking, anyhow. Telly and I were also talking about how it's not obvious to figure out how to balance the United Front idea without taking on our H's "stuff" as our own.

You didn't share the whole story with your daughter yesterday. I can relate to that, because it can take me some time to process how I want to handle something, too, amending as I go along. Thanks for sharing your process with us. I think together we can make so much more sense of all this than any one of us alone.

I find so much encouragement that your H responded well, too.

cat, that's great! Actually the way things turned out may be even better than if she had told him first... by you giving him a heads-up, he was allowed to "compose himself" and not lash out from his emotions. Also by you letting him know how scared she was, it gave him a view of how he was coming across to her.


Um, this is just my tentative opinion... (I seem to be speaking out against H&O lately!) but when it comes to children, I think holding back information is sometimes warranted... and DD17 is not yet a full adult. I think until she's an adult, she doesn't need to hear that sometimes you broke her confidence and shared things with your H that she asked you not to. Once she's an adult (and possibly with kids of her own!) then I think she'll understand and agree with your decision.

If I'm outvoted, that's ok.

Really? That makes me feel much better. I guess I'm just so hyper-sensitive these days of being thought of as manipulating people, you know?

After the fiasco a few months ago with the pictures, I eventually went out and installed a keylogger on her computer, to make sure she was really over it. I use it twice, told the IC (who we both see) about it, and I could see the disapproval on her face (the IC), so I thought about it and realized I really didn't want to be that mom who reads all her private stuff. So I tried to delete it, and I couldn't figure out how!

Jayne - lol. I was going to say the same thing in my own words, but I have to agree with you that some things, as my mother once told me, are 'better left unsaid' and this is a 50-year-old solid marriage to a very wonderful, loving man.

I do agree with openness and honesty, don't get me wrong, but I think something has to be said for maintaining a peaceful home also. Also upsetting our husbands over things that aren't life or death may be considered a love buster. My husband is one of those personality types.

My husband always tends to think that if I'm letting him in on something negative, it means he has to fix it, and since he's always fixing things at work, he feels like he never gets a break, so sometimes it just isn't worth it to any of us for me to tell him every single little thing, kwim? It can make or break the peace in our house, and who needs that kind of angst?

IMHO it's our *job* to manipulate our kids, KWIM?

When they're 1 and 2, we manipulate them so they don't do something dangerous or destructive - we put sharp and breakable things out of reach (lying by omission) and we distract them with bright, colorful *soft* objects with rounded edges (manipulating their behavior and the outcome).

We manipulate them to play nice with others; to eat their veggies before dessert; to finish their homework before playing.

We don't tell them the full truth about financial or marriage problems; we only release age-appropriate information.

We don't tell them the full horror about why they are not to talk to strangers; we just tell them enough so that we're pretty sure they won't do it (lying by omission; manipulating their actions).

As they get older, we become more and more H&O. An adult would rightly be very angry if their mother tried to manipulate them instead of being H&O. So your DD17 is getting there, but I think the way you handed things was great - when she's 25 or 30, you can tell her about the time she had cavities... and you guys can have a good laugh at the things moms will do to protect their kids, just as she stops little Billy from trying to climb the wobbly bookcase.

ETA: Thanks Soolee! Anyone care to join in singing "The Circle of Life"...

From the day we arrive on the planet
And, blinking, step into the sun
There's more to see than can ever be seen
More to do than can ever be done
There's far too much to take in here
More to find than can ever be found
But the sun rolling high
Through the sapphire sky
Keeps great and small on the endless round
It's the Circle of Life
And it moves us all
Through despair and hope
Through faith and love
Till we find our place
On the path unwinding
In the Circle
The Circle of Life
[FS:] It's The Circle of Life
And it moves us all
Through despair and hope
Through faith and love
Till we find our place
On the path unwinding
In the Circle
The Circle of Life

LOL Couldn't resist. You ask, and you shall receive.

Count me as the dissenter. I stayed quiet on too many things for me, and we got less and less compatible. I resented holding myself responsible for things that were out of my power to fix.

Soolee, I think what you're saying may be okay for some folks, but these people willing to gain at others' expense need to feel the consequences of their actions, IMO, and I was getting in the way of it by trying to shield him from it. They were poorly parented and then found spouses willing to continue parenting them. I'm washing my hands of that everywhere that I'm aware of, and hopefully if there's places that I don't see, the folks in my life will point it out to me, or I'll get healthy enough to see it.

You all have valid, important points. I guess I'm going to have to add it all to my little knapsack in my mind of things to remember so I can apply the best decision at the time. I think that my ultimate goal will be to (1) avoid deliberately hurting anyone and (2) look for opportunities to enhance our relationships (all 3 of us), which includes O&H, but also understanding, compassion, integrity, and self-awareness.

Count me as the dissenter. I stayed quiet on too many things for me, and we got less and less compatible. I resented holding myself responsible for things that were out of my power to fix.

Yes, I know what you mean, and believe me it took me years to determine what things weren't in my power to fix and what things were - what situations I could change for the better and what things I couldn't.

Soolee, I think what you're saying may be okay for some folks, but these people willing to gain at others' expense need to feel the consequences of their actions, IMO, and I was getting in the way of it by trying to shield him from it. They were poorly parented and then found spouses willing to continue parenting them. I'm washing my hands of that everywhere that I'm aware of, and hopefully if there's places that I don't see, the folks in my life will point it out to me, or I'll get healthy enough to see it.

I think the circumstances are always going to alter cases, and in the case you're describing, I can understand handling it differently. My situation is a bit different I guess.

Well, I didn't do that well tonight. MrCat called, as always, on Friday pm to see what we had planned. I told him nothing, he should come home. I was on line trying to line up a vacation for August, since we never got around to it. (Inside note: for 30 years, Friday night has been movie night for him, but now that D17 is older she has put her foot down and said she WON'T be seen at the mall on Friday night with her parents); yet he still wants to do things with her. Problem: not much to do.

Anyway, I told him to come home. Asked D17 if she wanted to go to the community pool when dad got home. Yes. He got home, asked him if it was ok if we went to the pool. He asked, like he does every week, aren't we going to the movies? I reminded him that D17 doesn't want to be seen at the mall on Friday night with her parents. So he sits on the couch, pouts, and falls asleep. Wake him up, ask him whether he wanted to go to the pool. He says yes, falls asleep again. Give him his swim trunks, we get ready, wait around for him cos he saw a show on tv he wanted to see until 8pm. (yes, I'm DJing)

Finally go to the pool, D17 and I sit and talk, MrCat falls asleep for an hour. Wake him up when the pool closes at 9, walk home (a block away), he falls asleep on the couch again, news is on. D17 asks to have the remote control, I take it from him, he wakes up and complains he's watching the news. I get mad. I throw the remote on the table, leaving it on his station (news). He asks what's wrong, why am I mad, I think about it, finally say "what about all the times you come into the bedroom and I'm watching something, and you take the remote away and change the channel without even asking me?" He has no response. So I get up and start cleaning, drink more wine, come in here and start writing. This is our pattern. I know I could fix it, if I were to take it all on my own shoulders. But at this point, all I can think is, why bother? And why should I?

Honestly, all I want out of life any more is to have a tiny apartment, work and come home, pet my cat, eat my tv dinner, watch tv, go to sleep, and get up and do the next day. That honestly sounds like heaven to me.

God give me strength to just say 'I want to leave you. Pay attention or get out of my way.'

"What are we doing tonight?"

"Nothing. You should come home."

Cat--I don't understand this because I hear you hearing his question as "Should I come home if we aren't doing anything tonight?"

That's me. My filter.

No more Friday nights as family nights? Which nights are marriage nights?

I know I'm reactive right now from my own stuff going on. About me, not you...

Want to ask, are you married to your DD17 or your H?

What's your top priority? Because he had a special thing going he enjoyed every Friday night and now, because DD17 doesn't want to do it, you don't either.

You and H could have gone to the movies. You aren't afraid of being seen there with your H, are you?

LA

No, I asked him if he wanted to go with me, and he said no. And she'll go with us any other time; just not on Friday nights, cos that's the night all the kids are at the mall, so it's cultural suicide to be seen at the mall with your parents.

I actually wasn't quite that rude on the phone. I think what really happened was
Him: What are we doing tonight?
Me: I don't have any plans.
Him: Are we going to a movie?
Me: Don't you remember, D17 doesn't want to go to the movies with us on Friday nights any more.
Him: Well, then, should I come home?
Me: Yeah.

Then when he got home, sat down, and I said how about going to the pool (thinking that we never do anything as a family except shop or go to movies or eat out), he said "I thought we were going to the movies."

Maybe I'm just frustrated that I'm not being heard.

No, that's not true. I'm frustrated that if it isn't what he wanted, he pouts. Or sleeps.