Weird timing as I just posted on another thread about a WS's firm boundaries with women and here a few days later I find an email.

My biggest concern early in our R was his lack of firm boundaries as he is very, very friendly sociable joking-type person. Pre-A I felt a few times he was "flirting" with women right in front of me but he didn't feel it was "flirting".

We have talked the issue out...he has told me what boundaries mean to him and I ask him periodically if he is being careful with coworkers and he assures me that he is...ie, no personal problem conversation, no flirting, no one-on-one lunches, etc.

Then I find an email that was sent to him last TH from a woman that he must have had a rotation with. He hasn't written to her and he didn't respond though I can see that he read it. I know through their work email they can find anyone else's email so she may have found his email address on her own. I haven't spoken to him about it as he is at work. Here is the email.


I know my H will say they worked together on a mock drill and that they probably chatted through the day and it was nothing(to him) but I am very upset about this. My heart is racing and I am having a hard time keeping calm.

Why didn't he tell me about this? Maybe he felt it was innocent but he knows I check his email...wouldn't he know that I wouldn't like this? Not to mention for her to send this email she must have felt very friendly with him which is making me very angry. I don't want to be in a situation where I have to constantly worry. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

Just got off the phone with my sister who said this sounds like he is being asked on a date and that while he probably did not intend for this to happen, he obviously did not have firm boundaries with this person to feel that she could send an email such as this. Any feedback? How should I handle this? Thanks very much for listening.

I'd be pretty upset if someone asked my W out, too.


I'd be even more upset if she didn't tell me about it.

Then, I'd be even more upset when I realized she must've been behaving in a manner that made it seem OK to ask her out.

She WAS asking him out...don't let him convince you it was anything less.

Hi!

This email would be a big ouch for me.

Sounds kind of too friendly if you ask me.

The "hang out or grab a bite to eat or something sometime" kinda comment would definitely raise my eyebrow.

Is is presumption on her part and brazen (cause it DOES sound like a date)? Or did he do, say, something to give the impression that this could happen?


Is an email back out of line?

Something like.... "Are you asking MY HUSBAND on a date"? Then say that it sure sounds like it...with a lol right after it.

committed

Looks a lot like my WH's e-mails with ow initially. This is not a normal co-worker e-mail, don't let him confuse you.

I have male friends at work where I have been friends for years, I wouldn't write anything with the tone this has, it is flirty and clearly she is looking to start a relationship.

Sorry that this has happened...

BA

This is what I would do...but I'm no expert. Or, you could reply "sure, meet me at _______ at 7 o'clock." You could show up and confront her in person...or sit in your car and watch her get stood-up by your H.

Thank you so much for the responses. OK, so you all have confirmed what I was feeling.

I will be approaching my H about this tonight. I want him to explain to me where he thinks things went wrong that she felt he would be open to receiving a flirty email like this so that we can figure out what other EPs need to be in place.

Does this sound right?

This is what we have talked about so many times...just as recently as this weekend...having good marital boundaries. He swore on a stack of bibles he is very careful. What is wrong with him?

I don't have a high tolerance for someone not being totally honest with me. I am feeling so emotional that this could easily snowball. Please help.

TBP,

You should feel triggered, and yes it's reasonable to expect your H to have boundaries in place to prevent these situations from occuring.

I beleive your H needs acknowledge your need for Extra - Ordinary Precautions on his part.
H needs to protect you by having very solid boundaries.

I think H sending a response to this e-mail, that you approve, would prove beneficial for both of you.
(Just something like; Hey, I'm married and out of love and admiration for my wife, I don't socialize, or e-mail with any other women at any time.)

Use this event to drive home the need for H to have extra, extra, "Extra-Ordinary Precautions". This event can strengthen your M if handled from this approach.

Thanks for your response. It helps me to organize my thoughts. I think I will approach him this way.

Can I ask, don't you feel he must have put out a signal in order to receive an email like this? What if he won't acknowledge this (which is what I'm anticipating)... How will he be able to strengthen his EPs if he can't acknowledge that he wasn't using good boundaries in the first place?

I am fairly certain he is going to maintain he was using good boundaries but she got the wrong idea anyway. I am trying to prepare myself.

Yes, Possibly!


I would not give H the oppertunity to acknowledge anything.

Just explain that you are hurt and he needs to improve his boundaries (EP's) to protect you from another event such as this from happening in the future.

TBP,
This is where his attitude really, really comes into play. If he is really trying to meet your needs here and protect your marriage, there is no conceivable reason that he will get indignant and unilaterally state that he did nothing wrong. If he acts insulted or self-righteous that you are even bringing this up, thats a red flag. Not a red flag that he actually intentionally flirted, but a red flag that his attitude and approach to your marriage are still screwed up.

Its very possible that he did not consciously do anything other than be friendly and sociable to someone he had to work with. But that does not mean that there weren't signals sent subconsciously. If he is truly repentant and open to helping you with your fears/concerns, he CANNOT state that he didn't do anything wrong, because here she is, basically asking him out. He may not have meant to send them, but she picked up on certain signals, which in itself, confirms their existence.

A truly repentent WS might respond with something like "I don't know what I did to give her this impression. Let me explain our interactions throughout the training to the best of my remembrance, and maybe you can pick out something that may have given her the idea that an email such as this was appropriate. If I did something wrong, I want to know so I don't make the same mistake again."

A not-so-repentant spouse might say something like "I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't mention this email because I didn't remember after I logged out/didn't think it was a big deal/whatever. You are never going to trust me again, are you?"

One response is about introspection with your happiness in mind. The other is a simple dismissal designed to make you the problem.

Good luck tonight.

Wow, wonderful post. Thank you very much for taking the time to write that...really.

I feel like I can approach H in a calmer way because now I know the way that he handles the conversation will give me a lot of information about whether we can move forward in our R...because, to be frank, the dark cloud that has hung over me daily since Day One of our Recovery is the fear of this happening to me again.

If he is unrepentant and has been telling me he will use EPs just to satisfy me while not really taking steps to protect our M or even REALLY believing this is something he needs to do...then I do not think I can stay in this M. I really just don't believe I can live this way.

Thanks so much for your help.

An update...

So our talk about the overly-friendly email from a coworker didn't go off so well. He felt he was being accused of something when he did nothing wrong. The discussion quickly escalated into a fight. When we both calmed down, he apologized, detailed the interaction, answered all my questions...then we emailed a response similar to what TST suggested.

Then...if you can believe it...a 2nd email from another female coworker in ONE week. I was stunned. This is what it said:

H explained that this coworker is a "friend" that worked at his previous job...now at his new employment... He said their interactions were in a group of four. He insisted he was only "friendly"...

Too friendly and chatty if you ask me but clearly, this is an area that we don't seem to see eye-to-eye on. I think he overlooks how much a lack of boundaries played a role in his EA and other indiscretion... He is focused on the fact that he has good intentions and that we have a much stronger M now. My analogy to him? Marriage-building and good intentions is like a protective gate around our M but lack of boundaries is like leaving the gate unlocked.

He said he didn't want to respond to this 2nd email. He felt it would embarrass her when he was certain she only thought they were friends (but he did agree it was inappropriate). Once I let him know I felt it was important to send a response, he agreed but he seemed to then avoid the topic and kept putting it off (Yes, he is VERY passive agressive).

Things spiraled into a conversation that had a lot of LBers and him telling me I needed to get over this...that I should be able to tell from his actions he wasn't going to do anything ever again...and then the icing, he told me our real problem wasn't the email itself but that I had checked the email!!!

I became numb, stopped speaking to him, and began to imagine the possibility of separation.

I approached him this weekend with how I was feeling, and he was very upset. He said he doesn't know what he could have done differently in his interactions with his female coworkers and he felt frustrated that I didn't trust him.

We talked for a very long time about everything. I told him I thought we needed to work with the Harleys...not only about EPs but about POJA and LBers. He wants to do that and I will be calling and trying to set up an appointment for this week. I really don't think we can afford not to do this. I think the triggers set off by the emails coupled with the fact that he has been busy at work and not meeting my ENs as much has put his LoveBank in the red.

I feel stronger than ever now if you don't follow the MB recovery plan very closely...things will eventually unravel. If you made it this far, please chime in with your thoughts. Anyone have success stories counseling with the Harleys? Wish us luck.

ps: We also found a book "Emotional Infidelity" that we ordered and are going to read together. Anyone read it? The first chapter is avail on amazon and seems to emphasize the danger of "friendships" to a M...

As an outsider looking in, it looks like he's a player...flirting with any and all females he finds attractive. One overly-friendly co-worker is one thing....two means he's putting out "the vibe" (see the movie "Dumb and Dumber").

Or is he so studly that women constantly fall all over themselves to be his AP, even when he shows no interest?

Part of attempting to R SHOULD be that he has ZERO female friends, co-workers or otherwise. Those emails were not business-related, obviously.

I think your H should find a new job yesterday, and you'd better watch him like a hawk.

Krazy, I don't think I can stop him from having female coworkers or encountering women in the workplace. I just want really good boundaries and EPs in place. Obviously, this isn't happening? not how he sees it...

He's not a player really but he's way too friendly and engaging. This is such a big part of who he is. (I've known him since elementary school)

In the past week, Blow #1 to our recovery was seeing these emails and Blow #2 was him telling me the emails was not a problem but my checking the emails was the problem. Huh??

That's why I'm hoping the Harleys can get him to acknowledge that he is not using good boundaries...

thanks much for the feedback...

I'm a reasonably attractive guy, allegedly, and I've never received a single e-mail from a co-worker like that in nearly 11 years with my current employer. Not one.

It's also an enormous red flag that he's trying to gaslight you...telling you that your snooping is the problem here.

Don't ever let anyone, including your WS, tell you that they get too friendly "without even realizing it". A guy is VERY aware when he's being flirty. Why is that? Because they are thinking about sex with the female in question while they are speaking to them.

The "Oh, he/she is just really friendly" stuff should be tossed out the window, especially after a d-day.

Krazy, Believe me, I hear everything you are saying. I find it hard to believe it is a coincidence that both the coworkers that emailed him are in their 20s...not married...come on...

He is in such denial that there was any signal given. He really can't understand what he did wrong. I think since he IS attracted to younger women (this came out in counseling as both OW were mid 20s) this comes across in his interactions...

I just can't deal with trying to be his watchdog, and I can't deal with worrying about this issue constantly long-term. Really keeping my fingers crossed that Steve or Jen are able to reach him like WhoMe's H (she told me a while back that my H reminded her a lot of her H)...

ps would love to hear from anyone counseling with the Harleys? what to expect, etc...

pps Thanks again Krazy. Do you have your own thread? I just realized I have seen a lot of your posts but never your thread...

I've made a few threads..mostly when I'm in a foul mood.

Good points!

Having a hard day...

Found a TM to my H from a coworker the other day, just said "Happy Birthday, FWH". It's not really a big deal as I know there was a note about it in his office and all his collegues were wishing him HB that day. I've seen other emails from this particular coworker and they have all been professional, only work-related content.

The thing that bothered me was...he admitted he knew it would be a trigger(for me to find a TM from a female coworker) but he didn't tell me about. I think he basically didn't want to deal with it.

With the two prior emails I found, I don't think I could have made it any clearer that I wanted us to be 100% O&H and I didn't want to have to find stuff on my own... He agreed! Well, we calmly discussed the TM and I told him not to be afraid to tell me about things like this, I'm not going to attack him, but any email, phone call, TM that isn't 100% work related, I feel he should tell me about.

Maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing?

I know that today the coworker who sent the TM is in the office and he hasn't called all day so I'm feeling just a little bit paranoid. ugh.

I'm feeling like we are so off-track when I felt like my H was the poster boy for MB R a month ago! I'm really hopin' and prayin' working with the Harleys will help us work through what the events of the last couple of weeks has brought to light... (Funny thing is I bet H doesn't even feel like anything is wrong!)

Thanks for listening. Of course, always open to feedback