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Dino69 Offline OP
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Thanks Snuggle,

Not sure what I like about chewing anymore. I guess it's more habit than anything. I just like the taste I guess, I chew mint.

The day is good so far. I did have panic attack a little while ago though. All the sudden I just had this overwhelming feeling about the A. It was like a truckload of bricks on my chest all of the sudden. I couldn't breathe, like I couldn't fathom a way of getting over this whole thing. It felt like all the sudden I just coudn't figure anything out. Kind of weird, since this whole thing started, it was the first time I felt like I wouldn't be able to handle getting past the affair. I'm still feeling a little short of breath right now as a matter of fact. We haven't dealt with any of it now that I think about it. I've been so wrapped up in trying to figure out if she wants to stay married that I haven't really given any thought to whether I can get past the A or not, I thought I had but I don't think I really have! I don't need this right now. I feel like I've gotten into a decent mindset about things. My appt with the doc yesterday went pretty well and I felt good when I left. This morning went well with the wife. She gave me a hug and I kissed her on the cheek. It's so hard not to get overly happy about those things. I came in to wake her up so I gave her a kiss on the cheek and then I laid down next to her with my back to her and she put her arms around me and rubbed my back. I try so hard not to let myself get caught up with the touching but I miss her so bad I just kill myself with the thoughts. She tells me she has no problem touching me but doesn't want me to get any ideas that all the sudden things are going good.

Anyway, I don't want to get myself down. I hope I don't get another one of those panic attacks, that was really heart wrenching. I sure can't wait to get some real counseling, I really needs some professional help for this thing.

hope your day is well


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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Dino69 Offline OP
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Had a pretty good day today. A couple of moments that I fought off. That attack this morning was something else, dang it hurt. Anyway, emailed back and forth a couple of times with the wife talking about daily happenings. How do you get by without making yourself crazy with trying to define each little action or word or email? I'm still having trouble with that and it sucks. Some days are better, but today was a good day and I still managed to get myself worked up...a little.

Today it was just email, innocent stuff. We were talking about my tobacco quitting. It started by me telling her I had an appt with the hosp, she asked why I have so many dr appts (not many, just seem to be in bunches and I just had the mental health appt yesterday)I told her it was to get the free nicotine gum and patches and whatnot. She say "good on you", your kids will be happy. Then she says she remembers the kids asking me to quit years ago, glad you're finally starting to listen to your loved ones. ??? Why the jab? Or is it one? Why can't she tell me she's happy for me? Is it that hard? These are just questions that get manufactured in my head when I start down that stupid road. I didn't respond back to the last one.

It seems that anything that triggers the thought that she isn't in love me gets me going and I'll be honest, it depresses me big time. The only thing that has seemed to work for me with any consistency is for me to make myself mad and disinterested. When I do that she notices and it turns her off. She even mentioned that she noticed it after the last time we had our GOOD talk. I knew eactly what she was talking about too! the day after we had that good talk, I was thinking about some stuff and got a little pissy inside. Tried not to show it and was nice but I knew I acted different for a couple of days. (The day after the good talk was actually the day I started sleeping downstairs). She said she noticed it and was kind of surprised because we had just had the GOOD talk. Fathers day when we had a BAD talk, she said she wondered why I was acting "weird" the couple days afterward.

So, if I act in a way that makes things a little better for me, she notices and it makes things actually worse. Again I'm in a quandry. But I have been for awhile.

I still need some thoughts on whether my sleeping downstairs is a good or bad thing. It's not like I'm out of the house but I've heard things about leaving the marital bed. What kind of signal does this send to her, any ideas? I tried to get into our bed one night after I woke up downstairs feeling hot and after I laid down, my brain started thinking again and I yanked myself out of bed and went back downstairs. Since then I haven't been in our bed. For the first couple of weeks she made little comments about me coming back upstairs because of my back, or how she didn't ask me to sleep downstairs but now she doesn't mention it anymore. I guess she's used to it. She seems more receptive to hugging me now in the AM so I guess thats a nice side effect but I could see how it would be easier to hug me in the moring than sleep with me all night, I don't know. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Anyway, off to the house. If anything, going home everynight is an adventure, or any other time I have to see her or talk to her or interact with her in anyway. It shouldn't be like that with my wife. Life like this sucks. 5 months can't go by fast enough. At least when we get back to the states the excuses and waiting and lack of options will be gone. Then again, who knows what will happen, maybe things will works themselves out before we leave???? I'm not counting on it.


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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I think if you have trouble sleeping with her, there's nothing wrong with the extra bed. Let her think whatever she wants - it's all because of her, anyway.

I wish you could find some ways to get out of your rut, to start thinking about other things, doing other things, to kind of get your life back. In other words, try to stop focusing on marriage so much right now, and find other outlets. Did we discuss volunteering yet? It's a great way to make you feel better and you're helping someone out, too.

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Thank you so much for your reply to me, Dino...I appreciate your time in pondering and sharing--hits my boundary of consideration. Thank you very much (and now, I'm repeating).

Great to know you're working on getting an appointment set with Steve Harley. I hadn't read that. I really did read your thread, too...still, I missed that part. I'm glad you're making it a priority, too. The time-difference would be daunting...good to know you're going ahead, anyway.

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She won't talk to anyone, don't know if she ever will. I don't know what to say about that. She's very strong willed. I understand that her stubborness is what got us here but I have to work with what we have. It may not work out for us but I have to try with what I've got. I still believe that somewhere inside her she stills sees us as a family. Maybe after some of this shock and pain wears off she'll be willing to MC for both of us. She knows I've already been going on my own, she's just not ready, reasons why not don't matter to me.


She isn't talking to anyone right now. I'm rephrasing so you can see reality. Your choice to consider if she ever will is fantasy. Might be the reason you have nothing to say about that right now.

Not criticizing you...clarity is really tough when you're in crisis...'cuz you're in it...I'm not. Which is one of the great things about MB...we are all in different stages of what you are going through. I found the more I focused on clarity instead of resolution, the better I felt.

Would you consider that all humans are strong-willed? I ask this, seriously, because we all have free-will...it's our own. Sometimes, hard to see; remains true. Her choices and yours have gotten you to here...to right now...I don't believe in just one thing...we are complex humans, living complex lives with thousands of variables...and in our marriages, both our halves bring us to right now. You are strong-willed, as well, IMO.

More big kudos on going to MC and continuing, even on your own. This once was usually advised here on MB. Just realized, I haven't seen it for awhile. Dropped off my scope. This is really important...active commitment. Thanks for bringing that back for me.

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Again an LB issue. I believe she doesn't come out and tell me because she believes sooner or later I'll back her into a corner and demand to know. I've told her that thats not what I'm trying to do, but thats her perception and perception is reality unless the perception is changed, correct? As for the "legal" reasoning, let me explain. He's still going through his court martial. Shes afraid she will get called to testify, she wants it to done and over, doesn't want to get caught unprepared. Uses the contact to remain "aware" of the situation over in that other country. She says the same thing the 2 times she told me she talk to him. Says she never made any promises to me about that, just that she would tell me if I asked, said she wouldn't lie to me, her way of justifying to herself her actions. I hope to talk to the Harleys about this whole thing.


You still choose to define NC as an LB issue not an affair buster. I respect your choice...I chose differently. Also, it was clear to me at the time that WH would tell me of each contact...and yes, my snooping revealed contact before he chose to tell me...and other times, he told me first. Didn't contradict that he agreed to tell me. Broke our old habit of me having to back him into a corner to confront an issue--that was our CA pattern. It was ours because I hid my stuff within my confrontation (making it his stuff), so I say both of our CA pattern, one dance.

Helped us to see our power...each our halves. Mine to verify, his to divulge. Both of us had problems in this area before...mine to make him divulge and him to verify I was making him. LOL. I like our parts now.

I hear you say that your WW didn't agree to divulge, report, act transparently, is that correct?

You know that we can't really prepare for the unknown...contact is not needed to prepare ourselves to reveal the truth. Sure is if we are preparing to skirt, shade or misconstrue it. We need contact to deceive. Again, clarity here...not judgment.

When you tell her that's not what you're trying to do...would you consider stating it's your belief that the affair does not end until all contact ends? No exceptions? Not you trying...you believing? (This becomes important in recovery, I believe, separately identifying your beliefs from your actions...so beginning this in the affair-busting stage helped me.)

She did tell you she talked to him (using that excuse)...was this her voluntarily telling you of contact those two times, or you asking? I'm confused...not you doing it, 'k? You're saying she remembers her promise differently...agreeing only to being honest about contact IF you asked? Can you see how this perception enabled her to then manipulate you into not asking, using your fear of conflict against your marriage?

These are just infidelity patterns--though I think they become more obvious, striking when infidelity is the crisis--good to know patterns so you can change your half. That's what I'm going for here. So now, when you make agreements, clarify in summary what is being promised..."I promise to not ask you about contact daily because you are agreeing to be transparent, is that correct?" Do you believe she agreed to transparency before, was that your understanding?

Thank you for talking about it here, too. I support your choice of making NC the primary question and discussion with the Harleys.

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I don't know what a realistic timeframe is. I do agree that I won't let it go long enough that I lose my love for her and begin to resent. I told her that on sunday, she doesn't grasp why I would begin to resent her. She's fogged out still. Believes that if we don't work out we could still be the best of friends for the kids sake. I never thought I'd last this long but I'm still here kicking and still upbeat. Like i said, I set milestones for survival. I'm usually a strong person, I do this for her and our family but maybe after I regaining my inner strength, either I'll walk myself or she'll see it and be attracted back.


She doesn't have to grasp your resentment...your half is to inform her you resent her choice to have and continue her A...that you're minding your love bank and a part of standing for your marriage may require she leaves before moving back to the states...you don't know. And being clear that you will not be best friends when she is attacking your marriage...you are best friends with your union. So if she chooses divorce, you will be a co-parent, not a friend or best friend. Let go her response...focus on your half of communicating this...knowing you did.

Again, listen and repeat really helps in handing her back her beliefs..."I hear you think we will continue to be act like best friends if we divorce. That's what I hear you telling yourself, is that correct?"

I like how you failed to meet your expectation and survive and grow, anyway. I see you as strong, standing for your marriage...stronger than you expected to be right now. I understand you don't, at times, see yourself in the same light...and that sometimes, you do. Of course, I believe you aren't doing this for her and your family...I see you as doing this for you, your marriage and your family.

I think you're in a really healthy state of mind, not basing your choices on your emotions...so I don't doubt you can reach that goal of getting back to the states.

I'm curious, though, as to what predetermined, progressive boundary enforcements you made in regards to NC in yourself...because when we don't enforce, we create and maintain resentment. We don't enforce based on our emotions...they just signal us when our boundaries are being crossed...same signal whether we are crossing them or others.

Also, I can see your POV about her carrying the marriage and now you carrying it while she is weak. I'm pondering that...because it really helped me to see contact as my WH attacking the marriage...no weakness in his choice--yet, the addiction continues, so the weakness for the fantasy fix continues...I'm striving to see this from your eyes.

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I struggle with that thought daily. She knows she made a stupid mistake, knows she threw away her career for something she believed made her happy at the time. Casualty of war as I said.


I feel like I'm probing an abcessed tooth going back to this...and I think I found something...she knew she was throwing away her career and had justified already throwing away her marriage and family as well as attacking and aiding in the destruction of another marriage and family...is a complete package in her circumstance. Now she isn't facing the loss of her career--she will retire as scheduled--nor the loss of her marriage or family...possibly struggling with how she could possibly be forgiven so much, when she didn't forgive before? I dunno. And she hasn't been forgiven by OMW and kids, either. Nor really by you...I believe forgiveness is a long process...so when we stand for our marriage, we promise to work on forgiveness...that to forgive too fast is to not heal, only pretend to heal. Like promising we will heal, not acting like we already are.

I hope you've seen in my sigline that I am FWW...so I do understand your casualty of war POV. Only too well. Which is why I probe the tooth...I probed my own. You can tell me to stop, really. Posting is healing...and you're correct...there is so much to heal from in infidelity...in my case, a literal lifetime of it. I appreciate your contribution to my own healing in your posts. I'm seeing this as you explaining, not excusing her choice, is that correct?

See, I used my infidelity to fight for my marriage, too. I don't see you as saint, bad guy--just in between, like me. Like the rest of the world, actually. I used the same reasons you have...because I saw where he carried me, when I acted atrociously...and no, we didn't recover from my infidelities or his before...we just went on...repeating...until MB...then we really got to NC and recovery. Together. I hear you.

Not a sacrifice at all...steps for redemption, my part. For me. About me. I'm now allergic to the word sacrifice, can you tell? Even in quotation marks. LOL.

That was a key element in my infidelity.

And why I bought into DH's infidelity, too.

About salvaging, saving, fight for your marriage...I use the term standing for it because you can salvage, save and fight for your half of the marriage...not the whole...in my book. This helped me out when WH chose to recommit...wasn't me saving; really it was me standing for our marriage, my half. Got to see his choices more clearly from this POV. Helped with my resentment, my not creating it or maintaining it. I got that part down well, I think!

Doesn't sound weird to me...what's normal in infidelity, really?

I do hear negative self-talk from you at times. I can relate to that.

I like your phrase that you're paying the mortgage on a home you don't live in right now...you're not making your choice dependent on her choice...nor on outcome or immediate reward. Would you say that's different from your previous choices?

Here's you response to my worry about you mitigating (which was mine, all about me, btw):
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I think about this too. Should I be handling this differently? Should I have acted different on dday? Did I act as I did as a way to amipulate her into coming back to me? I asked myself all these things. DDay was almost a relief for me, I finally found out why she was treating me the way she was, shy she didn't love me anymore. Misplaced hope it was. What I've learned is that her A wasn't what took her away, her becoming "aware" of me is what drove her away. Her time away allowed her to "see" for the first time how I had "manipulated" our marriage into what I thought was good for us. She finally stood up for herself, I'm kind of proud of her, not the A mind you, that is something for me to deal with also. "us" to deal with, just not right now. I am doing some things for brownie points, I'll admit that. I need them, there is nothing in my love bank, nothing, I'm paying on a mortgage for a home I no longer live in. But, I am NOT doing anything I'm not prepared to continue. Make no mistake LA, if we get this thing turned around, it WILL NOT go back to how things were, no way, neither she or I will live with that.


Can't tell you what you should have done...makes no sense to me except understanding the urge to have done differently in the past. I even use the word "should" or "shouldn't" as a signal I'm not in my adult thinking when I say it...so does my DH...we highlight when we hear/say it to each other.

What you are doing now is what matters, what's real. Not misplaced hope...you felt relief from finally knowing...which is terrific. There was a cause, you found out, to her behavior (and you weren't it...only used as a justification for a cause). Hope isn't a plan...sure is as necessary to recovery and thriving all the other ingredients. I believe hope comes from us humans being new every day...why it springs eternal...so when you feel hope, know it's not someone else giving it to you, 'k? How can it be misplaced then?

I want to challenge you to rethink your beliefs you shared in your post that I italicized. Doesn't mean you're thinking wrong...means I hear you taking in her foggy reasoning as your own. It's where you got a foothold for standing for your marriage...when your choice to stand didn't require a foothold...it's a choice we make or don't. Doesn't mean you really are taking in her stuff as yours here...that's my perception.

(About those who thought their marriage was bullet proof...separate from your use of that belief...did you read where Dr. Harley emphasizes that this blind trust is one of the causes of A's?)

You cannot drive her away from her desire, her focus, what she prizes and prioritizes. You already know this...I'm bringing it back. For you to be unfaitful, you had to convince yourself your BW wouldn't mind, wouldn't notice, wouldn't matter to her for you to take the action you did...would take you to believe something not real, and depends on you not stating your beliefs to her before you took the action, too. We sure can experience infidelity as if they drove us or we drove them to it.

Your A did make a huge withdrawal in her love bank...and you know that her staying right now added love to yours...so can you see where she blocked your deposits over the last five years, not that you weren't making any? Part of being wayward is re-writing marital history from resentment...don't buy into it. The more you see what you did since your A, the better you can see what she is and isn't doing right now...choosing your own healthy honest perspective...for you. Right now.

Do you really believe you are powerful enough to have manipulated her into having the marriage you had? I ask because if you believe that, you'll believe you can salvage or save your marriage, too...which isn't reality. Maybe you want to be seen as the destroyer so you can now be the creator/healer? What do you think?

During this same period of my life that you're in right now, I got a good hold on my constant all or nothing perspective...what I chose as my perception and perspective from habit (a life-long one). That's what I'm asking you about, from my own filter. Some of the statements you make trigger that in my mind. Doesn't mean you're doing it, 'k?

Would you say part of the relief of DDay also came in the form of honesty? Why you see her as finally standing up for herself--because she was finally honest with you about her thoughts, beliefs, feelings, perceptions--her experience in the marriage?

You know what you have in your love bank? Your choice to love and all the deposits she ever made...remembering them, what you may have blocked out or not realized enough to allow the deposit...you have healthy memories of loving and being loved...and right now, you have love bank deposits from yourself for acting from love. Remember, she can't take those away...you made them, 'k?

Please know when to give yourself brownie points...self-congratulate, support, encourage...very important. You may have used her for this, meeting all of this EN, and now, you meet part of it, reasonably, for yourself. In recovery, keep it that way, too.

\:\)

I support you in your commitment to a new marriage when NC is established and held to (to get to recovery). A lot of my questions are about the new habits you are forming now...during her A time...because we don't magically change when the opportunity comes...we prepare by changing ahead of time...our stuff, our half...so our desire meets the opportunity.

Like the prior CA you both have chosen in the past. It's tough to see when you are in a lifetime habit of defining, seeing and avoiding conflict to see the process...we act from it in a compact instant...breaking it down, finding its parts is part of changing...as well as choosing to slow down our reaction time...choosing to act not react. Prepares you for recovery...your half, IMO.

Your belief that she will not want what your marriage was like for her pre-A, to me, is an assumption. You don't know. It's okay not to know right now. I hear you speaking for your commitment, your goals and your steps. Not hers in the future.

Or are you forming some future marital boundaries involving her?

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Honestly, I've never even thought about the OMW other than I'm sure shes not doing so weel herself. I have to imagine that she suspected him of something or he had a history of these things or why would she be snooping in his email? Not sure if you knew, shes the one who found out everything and exposed to everyone. I found out because my wife had to tell me about the NC order. Wife says that in their last time physically together, they had talked about working at home on each others marriage since they knew it would be the last time they could actually see each other. I don't give it much thought because it doesn't really matter. The PA is over, there may be some emotional attachment still left but how long can it go on? Can she really continue with me and have her ENs filled over the phone? She may be able to, but I won't stand for life like this, won't happen. If she chooses a phone relationship over our marriage, she's weaker than I thought and I'll be good to be rid of her anyway.


To reiterate...I'm not going for shaming or guilting you when I ask you to consider, ponder...what you don't consider/ponder may be part of your own CA tendency (habitual reaction) or mine. I ask what occurs to me...for part of healing entirely from the infidelity in your marriage is to see the far ripples...to actively consider, ponder, probe and resolve within ourselves. Assumptions will cut you off from seeing the ripples, and therefore, not healing entirely (you'll miss steps of redemption and ownership). In Alanon, we learn to ask what is our part...to focus and see it, the whole of it, instead of being responsible for the whole of it. Our part is sometimes small or large or medium...instead of focusing on the size, we just determine our part...so we can see our real power and limits in each situation, event or relationship.

I share this to share my filter...how Alanon helped me to bust my own fantasy game (the all or nothing) and establish my new belief that reality is not what I fear...it's where my real comfort, joy and thriving lives. So I live in it.

I hear you saying your DDay only occurred because your WW had to inform you of it because of the military NC order. So in essence, the OMW, through her exposure, did expose to you (because your WW chose to inform you...still didn't have to). And you chose to not see OMW as a partner in your A busting. That's what I'm perceiving, am I correct? You don't know what she thought, felt, believed or perceived--you just know her actions discovered the A and she chose to expose and report it. She snooped. You did not. She discovered, you did not. So your half of trusting and verifying wasn't in place at that time...and it is now, as part of your acts of love, am I understanding this correctly? Do you plan to trust and verify in your new marriage?

I also perceived you separate her A into PA portion and EA portion, as if they are separate...and they may be very separate to you, is that correct? Would make it tough to believe, then that contact continues the A, because you're separating it into physical contact from emotional contact...like continuing half of the A, maybe?

I wonder, also, if this is reality...because realistically (they are humans, too) he could have flown into town and part of the long hours you believe she puts in at work are actually continuing the PA...because you wouldn't know, would you? Not that I assume this is happening...I have no way of verifying no PA activities...and don't know if you have. Given the severity of his situation, the court martial, seems not likely. Then again, given the severity of the consequences, may not have seemed likely either.

The emotional attachment you ask about how long it can go on...for as long as there is contact. Think about those marriages which suffer from EAs with past boyfriends, who only have contact once every five or ten years...and the WW says, "Oh, he's not a factor" when he HAS been the third-party in their marriage the whole time...because he is the fantasy she went into, in her own mind, and compared to her H's actions or non-action...the fantasy guy in her head...was in her marriage, too.

Reading Harley, you know that we act to create and maintain emotional connection and have resulting feelings...we do this through conversation, admiration, attention, appreciation...so yes, contact means connection...continues the A. You can emotionally, even recalling in your own mind the connection, continue it. How we learn to cherish, honor and love our partners. We do it actively. Contact is action. You yourself are feeding yourself love deposits through memory right now...and through your contact with her.

Which is why developing healthy marital and personal boundaries protects your marriage...as to your thoughts, beliefs, perceptions and actions.

As to your belief that reporting her saying she has had continued contact would require proof, I'm not so sure. I don't make that assumption. Seems to me you reporting her violation of the NC order would then spur them to inquire further for proof, and if they found it themselves, then would possibly imprison her. Her actions having consequences...not you doing to her. Again, for clarity not condemnation. And I hear you saying your reason to not report contact is because you cannot see how her imprisoned would help your marriage, is that correct?

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Safe in the satisfaction that I did what was just and right? That I stood up for our marriage? Is what she doing a crime other than hurting my feelings? The only reason it's an actual crime is because we are in the military, adultery is only a crime in the military and in the eyes of God. In 5 months it won't even be a crime for her. Will she see that I acted in the interest of our marriage and come running back to me after she spends her time Leavenworth? I think not. She know she's doing wrong. She'll deal with it her way, like I said, she is not weak. I, on the other hand, am not so strong. So this is a test for me too. Allow her to make her own choices, something I never did. Do I reall think that this will make or break our marriage? I don't think so. It can if I allow it to. The time will reveal itself to me if I need to pack up and call it quits.


I ask for your limits...where your final boundary is set...and if contact continues through to October, to when you both retire from the military (do I have that correct?), then reporting her will no longer be an option, will it? I hear you don't believe in this policy and therefore, do not report it...or that you don't believe in the consequences of this policy in regards to saving your marriage, or both? I believe the military is well aware of the grave consequences of adultery, and a rule in support of marriage. I also believe that the consequences are not a detriment and may not fit the act, either. Part of it...the exposure part, I agree with. Makes sense to me, though, that prison would be a final boundary, however long the internment. One that isn't taken until many crossings of it previously. Might even reflect that the A (the crime) continues until there really is NC as ordered.

Not pontificating here...sharing my stuff with you and hearing yours...you are in this position as the BH...I'm not. Wasn't. Have one son in the military right now and one who served four years.

Coming back to something I already quoted from your post:
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If she chooses a phone relationship over our marriage, she's weaker than I thought and I'll be good to be rid of her anyway.


I didn't respond to this directly, more indirectly. I still don't have a way I'm satisfied with, the words I want to address this directly right now. Will you consider this further so we can return to it later?

Another re-quoting from above:
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Allow her to make her own choices, something I never did. Do I reall think that this will make or break our marriage? I don't think so. It can if I allow it to. The time will reveal itself to me if I need to pack up and call it quits.


You seem to have a solid handle now on your limits...what you cannot control. I wondered if this retrospective belief comes from when you didn't have a solid handle...that you never did allow her to make her own choices before?

I hear you saying you don't believe that contact can make or break your marriage unless you allow it to for your half, your choices...and you will know in time if you have a final boundary for it by seeing if you call it quits as an enforcement?

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We both agreed that her inaction made me the monster I was, she owns her part in it.


Are you implying then that now you will not do the same, that your inaction will not be what you choose? (I see you as acting for your marriage...and believe she saw herself do the same...that this is a mutual belief, which made YOU into the monster you were, scares me.)

Can you follow the trail...think of the ways she could have taken action to guide you in your actions today?

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Thats only part of it. Anger from her stupidity, anger from her loss, anger from her inaction. Lots of anger. I have to work on the repeating back to her. I think about doing it, but it good for me just to keep from the LBs and DJs when she starts in on the "reliving" the past again and again. It's getting better each talk. She apologizes when she does it, at least shes aware now, she wasn't months ago. I'll try to do the repeating back thing, it would probably do good to hear herself saying what she says.


Anger is a part of grieving...the second stage. We can become stuck in one phase. Good to know, I think. I understand that eliminating AOs, DJs (all LBs) and listening and repeating are not your habit yet...good to know they are your goal. Can definitely feel like an overwhelming all-at-once requirement. Helped me to see that listening and repeating gave me MORE time to NOT LB...eased my way into practicing my new choices of response into habit...which lessened my experience of feeling overwhelmed, as well. I encourage you to put it first...and then you can see where doing it aids you in lessening your reactivity (which is our permission to LB). Good to know your marital communication is improving with each talk. Listen and repeat is mutually aiding...her in hearing, as you said, what she's saying; and you in not taking in what she's saying in relation to yourself. To confirm or clarify.

Which is really listening and not just thinking we are (an assumption cut out right there).

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I'm not saying she will need a separation. I've told her very clearly that a separation is just a cop out, a way of not dealing with our situation. But I also accept that a separation is not the end of things. Only the end is the end. I'm just aknowledging the possibilities. We haven't talked about it at all. She even says that she isn't thinkin about it. Just one of the many things said during our relationship talks. We try not to discount anything, leave everything on the table, things we never did before. This is progress for us no matter how twisted and strange it may sound. We let things sit in the shadows for so long, just talking about things no matter how unpleasant, it progress.


Thank you for clarifying for me. I agree with your belief about separation and it not being the end...that the end is the end. I really needed to hear that. You caught me reactive to my own assumption. Which helps me. Thank you for that, too. Great to hear the new steps you're doing which you know you didn't do before. Sounds like you're feeling relief, too, as a consequence of not conflict avoiding. O&H has so many rewards...lap them up, 'k? Real pride versus your previous self-image pride...learning the difference protects you and grows you into thriving.

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I understand this all too well. It is a delicate balancing act to remain truthful oneself while at the same time wanting to feel loved. I miss her so bad it seems that sometimes I will do anything. I know I won't, she wouldn't let me anyway, she'd see right through my deceptions, that may be another one of her fears. I'm not looking to decieve her or myself. I have no delusions of makgin "temporary" fixes for the sake of short term affection. For once in my life, I have a vision of long term health and happiness for our marriage. It's taken me 18 yrs to realize, unfortunately it took a nuclear bomb to wake me up. I can only hope it's not too late. Only she can decide that. Pressure from me and pushing her into choices won't do. No matter where her rationalization comes from, she will make her own choices without my influence. The only influence I can give her from my standpoint is for her to see that I am the safe place, that she can come back home to ssfety without fear of regression to the way it was. If she sees that, I have no doubt she will make the right choice. It the damage is too great and she doesn't see it, there is nothing I can do. Only regret what could've been. I do feel fear LA, i do. I don't want to lose her, I don't have my compass yet, you're right. At least I don't have my spiritual compass anyway. I am trapped by fear right now, I'll admit it. I don't think I'm doing anything irrational though, I feel like I'm still ok in that aspect.


I bolded the first part because it's so profound to me I wanted to find it easily whenever I needed to re-read it. You equate honesty with losing the feeling of being loved, is that correct? As if one precludes the other, rather than ensures it?

I think you encapsulated the base premise I had for having A's...that being radically honest with myself was not possible and feeling loved at the same time. I'm a bit stunned. I now live in radical honesty and feel greatly loved...even when my DH is not acting from love overtly when he withdraws. Wow. I didn't realize this until you wrote that. Thank you for sharing. I did the balancing thing (which is CA) inside myself for decades...going all the way back to childhood.

As for the missing...I believe you are missing your real wife and we all have felt this part of living with the wayward partner, remembering the real one. Do you think that's a good signal you do understand they are different, maybe? Or do you mean you miss all the loving actions your real W used to take that the WW doesn't? Seems like your real W comes to the table for talks, sometimes...and she's new, too, in that she's making different choicees now in regards to CA.

Sometimes, I would miss the known because I was living in the present, full of the unknown...all my own changes...even the old known DH was better than the WH...my perception from fear and fear of newness, changing choices.

I came to realize I took a lot of comfort in my DH's pre-A image that I'd made up...wasn't really him...was who I had made him in my mind. Letting that go, seeing him new every day, resulted in my not missing him at all...took time...and a deep awareness of presence and the non-overt ways he acted from love. Was a very challenging goal. Still is, at times.

The portion of my post that your quote is replying to was in regard to your own self-deception...catching it, if you will, from her...and I hear you saying you believe your WW would catch your self-deception and call you on it? I hope you meant you will catch your own...though I do believe in partnering, this is healthy for us to do for our partners and ourselves. Enmeshment means we rely on our partners to do it and not ourselves. I think I'm hearing you correctly...you mean in partnering.

Kudo yourself greatly for waking up, even if it took a nuclear bomb going off...because you woke up. Healthy admiration and appreciation for this...please don't discount it (what you may be saying with the nuclear part) in any way...or you will discount what others do by judging how much it took for them to do it. I believe as humans, that it takes what it takes for us to understand. And I see you striving to understand, then be understood. Self-mercy and forgiveness begins with you, as a process. Please process this in healthy way for you will be working on forgiving and showing true mercy for others, too.

I appreciate how you're viewing this as the long-haul, not shortcutting. Again, your post helped me to see in retrospect, some choices I've forgotten...and that was another one. Changed my shortcutting pattern consciously, with intent. Thank you.

I see you as actively forging your own compass, right now, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. Thank you for sharing the process, the journey. You are forging, crafting, examining and creating even while you fear, from love. That's true courage. Way to go.

LA

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Good to hear from you again cat.

And thanks for the support. I was just wondering what some of you thought about the extra bed thing. I really don't care much about what she thinks, but it would be nice if she asked me back into our bed. But even if she did, there's be at least a small condition of "some" snuggling or touching or something. The whole reason for me not sleeping there is because it makes me feel so bad. I'm not getting back into our bed to make HER feel good about sleeping. Does that sound a little selfish? It isn't really, it's protecting myself.

You did mention volunteerig cat. I'm staying busy really. Softball season is on which is 2 nights a week (when england isn't raining out our games, had a double header tonight which was cool, but it was really windy). I try to stay involved in some squadron stuff too. Plus the kids keep me busy and I like to cook dinner. Me and D16 are leaving sunday for 5 days in Italy for the highschool girls volleyball camp. Me and a couple of the other parents are chaperoning the girls. Weather is supposed to be nice but raining a couple of days, europe is green for a reason you know. It will be nice to get away, I will miss her anyway, terribly. Like I said, we get along pretty darn good, just missing the physical and emotional affection. We usually spend a couple of hours everynight sitting together watching tv or cooking together, so all is not bad. Most is all in my own mind, some in my position would be grateful, I guess I am but miss alot of things. Hope that we get that back is a positive but negative at the same time.

Is there a way to let go but hold on at the same time (without going crazy)? I like to think I'm getting better at it, but at times feel like I'm still at dday. I guess when I look back, I've made big strides. Wow, I was a mess 6 months ago, and she wouldn't give me the time of day. Now at least we actually talk to each other and she kisses me on the head and hugs me, even says "I love you" fairly often. So I guess you can call that progress. As for progress in myself, I think I'm doing ok. I still have some trouble "standing up" for myself. At least it feels that way sometime. It may just be my pride trying to rear it's ugly head. Sometimes it feels like I'm somewhat of a door mat. I guess its a matter of opinion depending on how you're looking at things.

Thanks again cat, don't be such a stranger


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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Thanks again for your time LA. You make me use my head and that helps immensely. I will try to define some of my responses a little more clearly, that way you can give me even better ideas to ponder.
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When you tell her that's not what you're trying to do...would you consider stating it's your belief that the affair does not end until all contact ends? No exceptions? Not you trying...you believing? (This becomes important in recovery, I believe, separately identifying your beliefs from your actions...so beginning this in the affair-busting stage helped me.)

She did tell you she talked to him (using that excuse)...was this her voluntarily telling you of contact those two times, or you asking? I'm confused...not you doing it, 'k? You're saying she remembers her promise differently...agreeing only to being honest about contact IF you asked? Can you see how this perception enabled her to then manipulate you into not asking, using your fear of conflict against your marriage?


Our NC agreement (if you can call it that) was this; when I first broached the subject this was her response "I won't promise you anything, I don't want to hurt you like you hurt me if we end up contacting each other in the future to see how the other is doing. I still value him as a friend but I will only talk to him if we need to discuss something dealing with the case." I was still kind of new to the whole concept of NC and it's effects so I was ill prepared in stating my expectations and boundaries. Her using my past violations as justification to not promise anything also caught me off guard, I was very new to this, I still am. This causes somewhat of a problem because each time I asked about NC, I also told her it would be the last time I mentioned it (because of the LB factor). I guess you can call what I'm doing is granting somewhat of a "grace" period. It may sound a little off, but I guess I'm trying to test my own ability to trust her judgment while at the same time seeing if she will make the right choices without me badgering her as I did in the past. I don't quite know if this healthy or not. I know she has been in the fog, it's obvious, but I also believe that she has come out of it alot and I'm hoping that she can see her violation of her own boundaries and choose the right path on her own. Like I said before, she is very clear on what my boundary is for our future recovery if we get there. So if she really believes she can continue contact, remain true to herself, and recover our marriage at the same time, she may be fooling herself.
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She doesn't have to grasp your resentment...your half is to inform her you resent her choice to have and continue her A...that you're minding your love bank and a part of standing for your marriage may require she leaves before moving back to the states...you don't know. And being clear that you will not be best friends when she is attacking your marriage...you are best friends with your union. So if she chooses divorce, you will be a co-parent, not a friend or best friend. Let go her response...focus on your half of communicating this...knowing you did.

This is a subject that will be revisited in future R talks. She says that she knows I'll be a real pain if we ever split. I won't, but I'm not going to pretend that we BFF either. My view is that if we are such good friends, why aren't we still married? That's MHO. Of course I'll be cordial, but unless it involves the kids, I don't think spending time with her alone will happen. It wouldn't be healthy for me because unlike her, I still want to be married. We'll talk more about this subject for sure, I think she's got some rosy picture of us hanging out and laughing going to the movies and visiting each others homes, just not being married, not gonna happen.
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she knew she was throwing away her career and had justified already throwing away her marriage and family as well as attacking and aiding in the destruction of another marriage and family...is a complete package in her circumstance. Now she isn't facing the loss of her career--she will retire as scheduled--nor the loss of her marriage or family...possibly struggling with how she could possibly be forgiven so much, when she didn't forgive before? I dunno. And she hasn't been forgiven by OMW and kids, either. Nor really by you...I believe forgiveness is a long process...so when we stand for our marriage, we promise to work on forgiveness...that to forgive too fast is to not heal, only pretend to heal. Like promising we will heal, not acting like we already are.

LA, she did throw away her career, she is retiring as a way of mitigating punishment. She wasn't ready, she still had a very good path in front of her and her goal of reaching the top rank of Chief is gone. She is a much better professional than I have been in the military, now it's gone. Her 20 yrs of hard work are gone and replaced by the results of a decision to be "happy" for a short time in fantasy. I feel bad for her on that point, I really do. Thats why I supported her so much on the professional front. I was a witness to her 20 yrs of dedication. Her mistake was horrendous but it doesn't erase 20 yrs of dedication to the country in my eyes. Her retirement will be a very small, quiet and lonely ceremony just to cover the leaglities, she doesn't want anything thing more because of her guilt. It should have been a huge celebration of moving on to a new life but will instead be a solemn reminder of everything she sacrificed for her indiscretion. If this isn't a clear indicatin of how As blind you to the truth, I don't know what is. This is again why I use the term "casualty of war". Emotions involved in times of terrible stress can be overwhelming. Your life being in danger daily can have a profonud effect on your view of reality. Not justifying her, just airing some environmental factors. We all chose on how to react to them, she happen to choose wrong.
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What you are doing now is what matters, what's real. Not misplaced hope...you felt relief from finally knowing...which is terrific. There was a cause, you found out, to her behavior (and you weren't it...only used as a justification for a cause). Hope isn't a plan...sure is as necessary to recovery and thriving all the other ingredients. I believe hope comes from us humans being new every day...why it springs eternal...so when you feel hope, know it's not someone else giving it to you, 'k? How can it be misplaced then?

My hope is mine. She doesn't see any from what she tells me. It's what I hold onto to keep me strong, the days that hope seems weak are the days I feel weak. Hope is something that reaches into the future, involves things yet to come that are larger than today. When I said misplaced hope, I foolishly thought that we would suddenly be back in each others arms wondering why we did all the bad things to each other.
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I like your phrase that you're paying the mortgage on a home you don't live in right now...you're not making your choice dependent on her choice...nor on outcome or immediate reward. Would you say that's different from your previous choices?

That's part of the new me. I don't to be reactionary anymore. Many of the reasons for our current reality were because of reacting vs acting. I'm doing what I believe to be right and what I want. If she chooses to walk away from us, I want to be able to tell myself I "stood up" for my marriage. I want her to be able to tell herself "he stood up for our marriage but I still chose to walk away". This won't be over soon, if I was looking for immediate reward, I would've failed myself a long time ago. I can say that I did do that in the beginning, it killed me, that helped me change my perspective.
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Would you say part of the relief of DDay also came in the form of honesty? Why you see her as finally standing up for herself--because she was finally honest with you about her thoughts, beliefs, feelings, perceptions--her experience in the marriage?

Definitely...as much as it hurt, it helped me see our reality, not the fantasy I had manufactured. It helped me see my shortcomings, my mistakes. I saw what I needed to be doing vs what I was doing. Showcased how I thought the things she was doing were helping us when in reality they were killing us all along. With this knowledge, my hope grows. I voiced this optimism to her many times, maybe it's contageous. I told her I wished she had done this 5 yrs ago, maybe we would've had a 5 yr headstart on what were doing now. She says she should've left me then, what can I say about that? She didn't, here we are, what now?
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Do you really believe you are powerful enough to have manipulated her into having the marriage you had? I ask because if you believe that, you'll believe you can salvage or save your marriage, too...which isn't reality. Maybe you want to be seen as the destroyer so you can now be the creator/healer? What do you think?

I thought I did, but she made those choices. Chose to accept my actions, believing that it was for the greater good. I don't believe in anyway I can save this marriage by myself. No way. Even if she makes the decision to recommit, we'll have alot of work to do, together. I do catch myself believing me the destoyer. I know I didn't do it by myself, but if I'm being honest, It was about 80 me, 20 her. Like I said before, I don't give her A that much credit. It does get the golden star for my awakening though. I can't see any other way that would've shook me into reality.
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Like the prior CA you both have chosen in the past. It's tough to see when you are in a lifetime habit of defining, seeing and avoiding conflict to see the process...we act from it in a compact instant...breaking it down, finding its parts is part of changing...as well as choosing to slow down our reaction time...choosing to act not react. Prepares you for recovery...your half, IMO.

Again, a delicate balance LA. I'm still learning how to approach conflict in healthy way. Like you said, a lifetime habit of CA is hard to break. I hate conflict, one of my worst attributes. Do it at work, do it at home, do it at the restaurant. I'm trying though, at least I'm aware. I keep all these issues I need to address in my head. Looking for the opportune time. Now is not the time for some, an unwilling participant has no interest in conflict resolution. Preparing a clean safe work area goes a long way in doing productive, healthy work. It may that some conflicts never get addressed because we never get to that point, remains to be seen.
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I hear you saying your DDay only occurred because your WW had to inform you of it because of the military NC order. So in essence, the OMW, through her exposure, did expose to you (because your WW chose to inform you...still didn't have to). And you chose to not see OMW as a partner in your A busting. That's what I'm perceiving, am I correct? You don't know what she thought, felt, believed or perceived--you just know her actions discovered the A and she chose to expose and report it. She snooped. You did not. She discovered, you did not. So your half of trusting and verifying wasn't in place at that time...and it is now, as part of your acts of love, am I understanding this correctly? Do you plan to trust and verify in your new marriage?

I'm not quite sure how to answer this one LA. She told me that she was planning on coming clean when she returned from her trip, doesn't matter now. As far as choosing to have OMW as a partner, i guess I never did, didn't think about it, part of my selfishness I guess. Oh, she didn't have a choice but to tell me. My commander called me in the next day to tell me about the NC order. Commanders talk to each other. Luckily she had told me and I didn't hear it from my commander. As far as trust and verify, I'm not sure if I believe in that concept just yet. I'm hoping that a future healthy marriage won't need it. By this, I'm saying that O&H should preclude this. Verifying, by nature, conveys mistrust in my opinion. You would hope that in a healthy marriage, it can be talked about without conflict, in that sense yes, I would say that I will trust but verify.
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I also perceived you separate her A into PA portion and EA portion, as if they are separate...and they may be very separate to you, is that correct? Would make it tough to believe, then that contact continues the A, because you're separating it into physical contact from emotional contact...like continuing half of the A, maybe?

Never thought of it quite like that but I would say you're right. In a sense I don't believe they are separate, that's why I talk about the NC thing so much. It gives me security to know that the PA is almost an impossibility, almost. She did bring him here once right after she got home, they hung out for a day, he told wife it was an official thing, it works on civilian wives sometime. The EA part is what I'm trying to give her some leeway for. I'm under no misconception that she cared/cares very much for OM, thats what happens. I'm hoping that she will see that, that she will cut it off herself, we'll see.
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I wonder, also, if this is reality...because realistically (they are humans, too) he could have flown into town and part of the long hours you believe she puts in at work are actually continuing the PA...because you wouldn't know, would you? Not that I assume this is happening...I have no way of verifying no PA activities...and don't know if you have. Given the severity of his situation, the court martial, seems not likely. Then again, given the severity of the consequences, may not have seemed likely either.

Don't think I haven't thought of this myself. Have found myself driving by her work on a few occasions to see if her car is there. Even popped in or made lame excuses to come by. I guess that proves your case about verifying. But everytime I do it I feel like crap. This snooping around is part of what got me here in the first place. I never had reason to snoop and pry and mistrust before but I did it regularly, it drove her away, she told me it was doing it while it was happening and i didn't listen. No that I have reason to snoop, I catch myself saying, "don't do that crap, trust her for once, this is what got you in trouble in the first place". How can I display my new self and make her feel safe to come back while at the same time I LB by mistrusting and disrespecting her? Kind of a catch 22 huh? I know the text book answer, she deserves it. But at the same time, how do I hope to have a marriage to rebuild if I cut it off at the knees before we ever get started? Why would she want to risk herself with me again if I'm displaying the very traits she found so disgusting in the first place? Someones got to change something, i choose it to be me. I'm going to have to trust, if she proves me wrong, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. They call it the 180 in some circles. If you're doing something that doesn't work, do something else, right?
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And I hear you saying your reason to not report contact is because you cannot see how her imprisoned would help your marriage, is that correct?

Putting her well being in my hands with the knowledge that she contacted him is a huge risk for her. Especially since I'm the one who is hurt most by this information. It shows me at the very least that she trusts me with her safety in some small way. I'm not sure that most waywards would risk that kind of info with their BS, not with the potential consequences of reporting it. Maybe she feels safe because she believes I'd never do it, maybe she still believes we are close enough to protect each other, I don't know. I choose to believe otherwise. Maybe I'm not reporting because it gives me brownie points? I'm not so sure about that either. I guess that if I believed it would help our marriage, I would do it. I think I know my wife, most of her anyway. If she's gone, she's gone. Again, I choose to try and hold onto a marriage to save. I'm not saving it myself, I'm just keeping it afloat until either she helps me, or she abandons us and I have to jump in a liferaft.
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You seem to have a solid handle now on your limits...what you cannot control. I wondered if this retrospective belief comes from when you didn't have a solid handle...that you never did allow her to make her own choices before?

I hear you saying you don't believe that contact can make or break your marriage unless you allow it to for your half, your choices...and you will know in time if you have a final boundary for it by seeing if you call it quits as an enforcement?

I'm getting alot better recognizing what I can't control, doesn't make it feel any better yet, but that's getting better too. Contact will not make or break our marriage in and of itself I don't think. It will be a combination of both our choices. My final boundary will be no contact. Again, unless she is committed to saving our marriage (she's not yet, at least hasn't said so) my boundaries don't mean a whole lot. For now, I'm trusting that she is making the right choices. For all I know, she hsan't talked to him since the last time she told me she did. Do I believe that to be true? I have to right now, just to reinforce my decision to trust. She may very well prove me wrong, we'll see.
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I ask for your limits...where your final boundary is set...and if contact continues through to October, to when you both retire from the military (do I have that correct?), then reporting her will no longer be an option, will it? I hear you don't believe in this policy and therefore, do not report it...or that you don't believe in the consequences of this policy in regards to saving your marriage, or both?

We are not both retiring, only her. I'm still going for another yr or so, we'll see. She is choosing to go with me, or is it the kids? The kids are going with me regardless of what she does, I think she's resigned herself to that. I won't let her have them, another consequence of her actions. I've asked her why she doesn't move on and start her new life somewhere without me, she says she isn't ready to decide that yet. There could be a number of reasons, I choose to believe she still holds hope for us too. She could be staying for finacial reasons, the kids, who knows. I have to believe that if this life altering epiphany she had is really real to her, she would take this opportunity to jump ship and start anew. I think she's keeping herself fogged in on purpose in some way. If she really believed that our life was so unbearable, why plan to make another move to an unknown state where she knows noone, no connections, nothing only to continue with the source of all your misery? As for the reporting thing, I don't believe in the confinement thing on the grounds of adultery but thats not what the confinement would be for. Confinement would be for disobeying a direct order. The NC order is directed by the commander and is legally binding under military law. NC orders are given for numerous reasons, adultery is just one. So my reporting her is like me saying "hey, she's not listening to you, she's still doing it!" Once she's out of the military, the NC order means nothing. Thats part of my reasoning when it comes to my boundary. Even if she did maintain NC right now. I couldn't be sure of her motives, she could just be holding out until she retired. If she commits and really has NC, then I can put more faith in her. But if she continues when we come back and still hasn't committed, I think that will do it for me. Plus we'll have more options, I can ask her to leave and she can get her own place if she wants, here it's impossible. Alot of constraints here. I can make her leave in the states if need be. Obviously the law will be on my side regardless of our past. Just some clarification as to my thought processes at this time.
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Anger is a part of grieving...the second stage. We can become stuck in one phase. Good to know, I think. I understand that eliminating AOs, DJs (all LBs) and listening and repeating are not your habit yet...good to know they are your goal.

I have the LB, DJ and AO thing down pat. I haven't lost it in any of our past talks, I'm quite proud of that, not my strong suit in the past (if it doesn't work, do soemthing else \:\)
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I bolded the first part because it's so profound to me I wanted to find it easily whenever I needed to re-read it. You equate honesty with losing the feeling of being loved, is that correct? As if one precludes the other, rather than ensures it?

I think I was more intending to say that sometimes you lie to yourself in order to get loved. In other words, you may be tempted in some instances to be dishonest to yourself in order to keep that "loved" feeling. A balancing act as I said. A healthy relationship can tread the boundary without crossing it, can't it? I'm not really conveying my thought well. I'll try again later.
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As for the missing...I believe you are missing your real wife and we all have felt this part of living with the wayward partner, remembering the real one. Do you think that's a good signal you do understand they are different, maybe? Or do you mean you miss all the loving actions your real W used to take that the WW doesn't? Seems like your real W comes to the table for talks, sometimes...and she's new, too, in that she's making different choicees now in regards to CA.

Thats a hard concept to grasp, makes me think I never really knew her but I know better. I know she's new, fear of not liking the new her is also an issue. It may come to pass that the new her is not for me, we'll see. But I do miss her, the wife I knew. Most of her is buried under yrs of anger from past and present. Buried under guilt and remorse, I know that. I do miss the loving actions too, miss them terribly, she loved me well, even recently. I hope to get there again.

I want to thank you LA. I've never really taken an indepth look at why I had my A. You've got me curious now. I alwasy thought it was just a "man" thing but I believe that in order for me to be truly honest with her and myself, there had to be underlying reasons and I'm going to investigate myself. I'll do some soul searching and post my findings. I hope to continue this exchange with you. You're helping me more than you'll ever know.

Thanks LA


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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My day was good, thanks for asking \:\) We bought a new lawn mower and I slightly pressured my husband to go w/ the corded electric mower (better for the environment, easier to maintain), but secretly I was a little worried it would not mow as good or be a pain to use and it would be all my fault we wasted $$ on the thing, so I was relived when he used it today and said it worked great. He even said he felt good about it being more environment-friendly when our neighbors stopped by to check out the new mower ... hee, hee!

I hope you don't have any more panic attacks too. However, on a positive note, it sounds like the one you did have didn't last very long. To me that is the key take away. You overcame it, rather than it overcoming you. A lot of other people get stuck there and you didn't, so bravo! I give you an A+ :)!!

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Snuggle, congrats on the "green" mower! Sounds like you and hubby are negotiating healthily. I'm glad for you.

Thanks for the A+. Not sure if I deserve it though. Is it ok to have these little breakdowns? Sometimes they last a little longer than others, sometimes they're just a fleeting thought, like a cold slap in the face, then you press on. I count close to 4 months now since dday. I'm not sure how much these things have changed since then. When I'm alone and crying (I allow myself to occasionally) it feels just as bad each time. I can tear up in the middle of a meeting from the smallest trigger. Last night wife and I were watching "America's got talent", there was an opera singer and suddenly I started crying silently. Pretty sure wife saw me but she was crying a little too (don't know why) but he was good. I usually try to let it all out when I'm alone, it helps but I feel disappointed with myself sometimes for being weak. Is that ok? I think they are getting further apart, I don't want them to totally go away. For some reason I believe that if I don't cry, it will signal that I've lost my love for her, I don't want that, not anytime soon anyway.

I feel pretty good today, she told me she loved me too, before I left for work. I felt good even before she told me that so it was a good morning. Not much sleep last night. Stayed up posting too late, lost track of time but slept well. She looked so beautiful this morning, even in uniform. She's always been my one love, never doubted that for a second.

Hope everyone is doing well, thanks again Snuggle and LA.


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Dino,

I just read this thread and it pains me so. I hope you are doing in the right thing. It seems to me that contact is contact and that there really isn't a difference between an EA and a PA (okay, maybe with a PA, the BS triggers on different things and SF between the WS and the BS might not be as affected if there is only an EA). Now your WW is putting you in a position of keeping a secret, the best fertilizer for an A.

This kind of contact has been upsetting me so much with my WH. Every time they saw/talked to each other it was 1) a fix to both of their addictions 2) a delay in recovery of our marriage and 3) a direct insult to me, the BW. Of course, I am so early in this that I probably should not be talking. With us, the longest period of NC is 12 days and right now it is NC for the past six days. But I really think total NC is the first and primary recovery element.

AM


BW - 65
WH - 60
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
DD - 44, DS - 30, DS - 23
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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AM

I appreciate your empathy. This situation won't be forever, it is only temporary, where it goes from here is the mystery. For now I have to retain my faith in her, it may be a foolish errand but that is my choice for the time being. Sooner or later reality will come crashing down on her, I just hope I'm still around to want to save us. Only time will tell. I know my actions on this subject go against one of the MB principles but I'm the one here and I think I'm thinking clearly enough to judge what would be in "our" best interest considering the circumstances.

These situations work out on different timelines for different people. I'm so happy hear that you guys are already on the road to working things out, at least you're trying. I hope that one day soon we will also be working together to save ours. But for now, I'll be the rock for us, giving up would be easier, i figure I shoud start fighting for something.

thanks and good luck


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Good luck to you too. I hope this plan works for you and your family.

H admitted last night that there was contact on Tues and that he had lied about it to me. Rather than getting better, I am inching towards plan B. I may have already spent too long in Plan A now. I have a couple of more mental milepost checks before I start a Plan B. If/when i do it, H will have lost just about everything.

AM


BW - 65
WH - 60
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
DD - 44, DS - 30, DS - 23
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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AM

Remember the big picture. Don't react to hastily especially after hearing news like that. Step back and see everything. Remember like I have to, they are still in sort of an addiction. I have been in somewhat of a Plan A for almost 4 months and as far as I can see, just now seeing some kind of result. I may be a very bad example of what to do but at least were still here and as far as I can see, still have a chance. As of now I still want to save "us".

Also, be sure of plan B and plan accordingly, that will mean no contact, AT ALL. Going dark is what they call it. Not a very feasable option for me right now, but I haven't ruled that out for after we get back to the states. Actually, our time here and me showing my new self and taking care what few ENs she allows me to should improve my chances should I decide to Plan B when we get back.

Believe me, I know how you felt when he told you about the contact, it sucks. I think about it every minute she's not around and I'm not absolutely sure about what she's doing. I'm dreading being gone this week with my daughter because it's a whole week not being able to know what she's doing. The thing is, I'm actually going to be at the base that the OM is at. I know what he looks like and I know his name, i hope I don't accidently run into him, I may do something stupid...The only thing that eases my mind a little is that my son is staying here and she'll at least have to take care of him, so in a sense, she can't just run off somewhere. I'm just thinking stupid right now but thats what happens when you get turned inside out.

Anyway, think about it, don't be hasty. When you get antsy, remember, I've been at this for 6 months+.

Take care


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LA

So I was thinking about the past and what could have possibly drove me to choose breaking marriage promises by having an A. Obviously there are no justifiable reasons for doing so, it was a choice I made however horrible it was. I used to think it was strictly a selfish act of childishness that wasn't driven by any other need than my desire to act like a teenager. After thinking on it a couple of days, I looked back at some of the feelings I believe I had and I'll try to convey them based on ENs as good as I can.

My wife has always been somewhat of a "tomboy" in the sense that she is very atheltic and loves to compete. This was one of the things that we shared as together time. Playing sports was one of the ways we socialized. This was also one of the reasons she has always got along better with males than females. She grew up in Hawaii surfing and beach activities. One of the things I remember bugging me was that she was a sweats and t-shirt kind of girl. She is beautiful, don't get me wrong, perfect body everything. But I remember beig upset that she didn't dress a little more feminine back then. I didn't expect her to prance around in lingerie at home or wear mini shirts and dresses all the time, but seeing her in sweats and t-shirts all the time used to bug. So I guess this would equate to my EN of attractiveness. It sounds so weak because she really is beautiful and has always pushed the right buttons for me.

She's always been very strong. This used to manifest itself by her having to have a say in the details of every minute action of our day. We kind of laugh about it now because she knows how she was and has since changed dramatically. She would yell at me about where I parked, how I drove, everything from how I cut the grass to which brrom to use and how to do laundry. Much of the same things that most men complain about. The best example of this is when we would go on vacation and go to an amusment park. She would run our visit to the amusement park like a guided tour. She was the only one allowed to hold the map and would direct our schedule like a prison warden, we laugh alot about that now, but back then it used to drive me nuts and I do remember building up a resentment towards that. One of the things I remember wanting was her to at least let me "feel" like the man of the house sometimes. I did do what I wanted, when I wanted but I remember somehwat disrespected when she would act so controlling in a sense. I would do things she asked and then she would tell me how to do it, I used to get so mad. I sometimes wished she were a bit "meeker" or more feminine in a sense. Not so strong headed and stubborn.

After about 10 yrs of being married, she started to be a little more homebound. She started to have less and less enthusiasm about going out and having get togethers or going to peoples houses to bbq and drink or socialize. She tells me now that it was a product of how I treated her but I don't believe that. I used to throw DJs at her like "you're the oldest acting 28 yr old I know", "you act like a grandma already". By the time we were married 13 yrs, we did little as far as dancing or partying or anything like that. It started the trend of my going out on my own and the downhill slide began.

Thats as much as I can come up with. She was as perfect to me as I could ask, in hindsight, but I can remember vividly how I saw things back then. I guess when you're younger, little things have so much more impact.

The OW in my case was about 10 yrs younger than me and single. She worked with me and had given me attention from the day I first met her. She was very cute and very much a girly girl. After knowing her awhile, I knew she would never be the type of girl I could be with or have a "real" relationship with because she was kind of oppsite of how my wife was. Its weird to say I was attracted to this but it's also the reason why I say that my A wasn't caused by anything that my wife did! Does that make any sense? We didn't have a real physical relationship. Never slept together but had dangerous little physical contact episodes at work of all places. To tell you the truth, I had thought that one day we would find a way to hook up but I always seemed to find excuses not to take it all the way. Even when my friends and I would go out, I would flirt and talk to girls but whenever it got to crunch time, I would always look for a way out. I over stepped my bounds no doubt, but I never went all the way. I guess the danger aspect of it had me hooked. We would talk on the phone and write dirty emails to each other and it would really get me going. It was so exciting, but never once did I think I was unhappy with my marriage or even come close to wanting to get together with the OW in anyway. None of this matters to BW though. I might as well have because the effect it had on her is the same either way. The following 2 times of being caught breaking the NC rule just made things worse. We never reconciled my A so the refresh of each contact just tore her apart. She said the last one just broke her down. Of course she held it in like she does everything and we were back to normal within weeks. The steady decline in her affection told me that things weren't normal. I knew the reasons but chose to believe that it was just her being an old woman and not taking care of me, deep inside I knew the truth but my taker just kept at it.

So, I know I'm not the same man I used to be. i know I'm a much better person and look at many things in a much better light and actually despise the things I would do back then. Not just because of me now being a BS, but I think my morality finally took a positive turn about 3 yrs ago and I haven't looked back. Unfortunately my change in attitude didn't carry over to all aspects of me, I believed my changes should have been noticed by my wife and when they weren't, my taker let loose on the jealousy and controlling behavior that has gotten us to this point. I didn't cover all of my shortcomings because there were many. But I believe these were the back breakers. I think in the moral sense, I'm finally where I'd like to be and believe myself to be a pretty honest and righteous person. I hope that my wife will see this someday and give me a final chance.

Thanks for spurring this effort to look inside myself LA. I never really gave it much thought. I guess if the subject ever comes up again between my wife and I, I'll know what to say and maybe it will help bring us a little closer on the O&H part of our lives. If we ever do get to the healing part, I will do my best to get to the root causes for her A so that her and I will never again have the poison inside us breeding that contempt and resentment that has eaten away at us for so long. Hope your weekend was good. Daughter and I are off to Italy in the AM. Worries on my mind but I hope the don't rule my week. I will be sure to look in on you guys when I return.

Thanks again LA


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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Well, back from Italy. Had a great trip with the girls and v-ball. Weather was a nice change from cold gloomy England. 80 degrees everyday and sunny. Great food and had some fun.

Talk to wife each day, things seemed pretty good. She took thursday and friday off which kind of pissed me off a little since she never takes off when I'm home, oh well. Makes me wonder why but then again, my mind can manufacture all kinds of stuff. Son was home with her and had some friends stay the night.

I'm pretty sure I ran into OM the day I got there. He is stationed there in Italy. Kind of weird how it happened. We had just pulled up to check into our rooms and this car pulls up as we're walking in. I look in the car and I was dumbfounded. Now, I can't be absolutely sure but I've seen a couple of pitures of him but they weren't his full face. But his features are pretty recognizable, curly brown hair, green eyes, kind of skinny face. I'm almost positive. I walked up to the car and asked if him if he was Captain &^%%#*, the guy said it wasn't him but he seemed a little nervous. I walked away and looked back to see and he looked over at me a couple of times. He had a little boy with him and he was parked in front of the office stealing internet service cause he was just sitting in the car using his laptop, probably emailing my wife. (anyone got a good keylogger for me? it will be for a MAC). Probably doing that since they confiscated all his home computers for the case and his wife probably had the internet service cut. Needless to say, I was pretty upset after that for awhile. I had a little self consciousness about the guy being better looking than me but if that was him, I have even less respect for my wife. I guess love is blind huh? I haven't said anything to the wife about it yet, she may already know, does it matter?

Anyway, hope everyone is well.


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Well, from everything I've read here, people usually trade down when they have an affair, i.e., pick someone less attractive or appealing than their wife. I wouldn't worry about it.

Sounds like you're doing a good job of handling it; I wish I had better advice.

I guess, just keep trucking, keep your integrity. That's what it's all about, right?

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WELCOME HOME DINO!!!



Glad you had a nice time in Italy. I am so jealous!! I would love to have a week in Italy. I would have gelato every day ... hee, hee!

Anyway, you know yourself better than I, are you being at all paranoid? How many people are stationed at the place you went to? Brown hair, green eyes and a skinny face ... not quite as defining a trait as say, a tattoo of a tiger on his left buttock, is it? I'm guessing since his name wasn't visible, he wasn't wearing a uniform, so do you even know the man's rank or if he was army? Don't let yourself get caught up in pointless anger and suspicion, because I have 2 words for you ... Love Buster.

Ok, now go and have yourself a great week!

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Snuggle

Don't worry about LBs, I don't do that. But yes, I do know about him, he's a Captain in the Air Force, (the 3 of us are in the the Air Force by the way, not the Army, but I still love my Army brothers). I know where he works, obivously he does the same job my wife does, thats how they ended up working and sleeping together. I know it was him, like I said, I've seen pictures that I've since gotten rid of. there aren't that many people stationed there and the public places are pretty small, everyone visits the stores and commissary so it's not uncommon to run into people. I had a feeling I'd run into him sometime. The Air Force is not as big as you think. I run into people I know everywhere around the world.

I am going to mention it to her though, not in any kind of confrontational way, just to let her kow I've seen the enemy and that I'm disappointed again. Didn't want to ruin the weekend, you know? She came down and laid with me last night even though she was a little standoffish yesterday, says she couldn't sleep. Nothing other than that, no hugging or anything, just laid next to me and slept. I cried alot this weekend, I think I let some expectations creep in. Thought that maybe she would've missed me while I was gone and, well, you know.

I'm afraid I'm starting to create more distance between us. It's tiring to hurt everyday, the body has a defense mechanism against pain. I don't want to lose my love for her but it's getting harder everyday. I seriously think she's just cruising right now because she's under no pressure to do anything. I'm going to give her an ultimatum before we leave. I don't want to move to my new base in the same situation we're in now. If she hasn't given me a commitment by then, I'm going to tell her to plan her move without me and the kids, get her own life started without us.

Anyway, here's to a good week. I hope everyone has one.


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Snuggle

I need some advice bad. I talked with my best friend, he says I need to give her an ultimatum. He knows everything about whats happened and has known my wife and I since we got married. He wants the best for both of us but he thinks she should make some kind of commitment by now. I really value his opinion and now I'm just boiling inside. He says I need to have some respect for myself and make her make a decision. What the heck am I supposed to do? Please give me some sane advice, help me get my mind right. Everytime I think I'm doing ok, I get sideswiped by something. This week is not off to a good start.


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Dino, that's kind of what I've been thinking, too - that you guys should have reached a decision by now, if it's true you're not doing MB stuff. If you ARE doing MB stuff and think you can get somewhere with her by doing it, I guess it wouldn't hurt to just let it ride - see if things get better before the move.

But if it's pretty obvious she's leaving, you might as well work on that premise. I know you have housing issues, but if you did have an 'answer' it might make it easier to co-inhabit the same house, rather than wishing for something she's never going to give. Like you said, you hate to be in pain every day.

Did you guys ever do counseling together? She really sounds like it would help her.

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That's my dilemma cat.

Things do seem to be doing better, I think. I mean, we get along great, no fighting, we hang out, we do things, just not as a married couple I guess (no affection other than the occasional hug or goodby/goodnight kiss on the forehead or cheek if I'm lucky). I struggle with wondering about where this is all going. She acts as if she's staying with me. She never says she's leaving. I wonder if I'm just being impatient? I know that 4 months since dday is not all that long, but she isn't willing to talk with anyone or work on anything with me yet, I just don't understand. Why can't she make a commitment? She acts as if she has, but will not say it, as if she's scared that I'll change my ways. I don't know. If I knew she was committed, i could handle all this pain alot better. I could handle knowing that things aren't well right now but we're working on it. I could handle being in pain for a worthy cause, I could do it. I know she is an internalizer so she keeps everything inside so I never know anything. I try to talk to her once in awhile, every few weeks but so far it's the same story. She's not ready, she thinks I expect her to change overnight, she hates feeling like I'm trying to cage her up like I did before. I understand it all but I struggle with it all. I'm just venting really, frustrated and lonely. She cares not for my pain.

1 month and 7 days until Hawaii and family, I can't wait. Just another milestone to shoot for. 9 days until my base options come out, I'm not optimistic about what te choices are going to be. She says she's going with me but makes no promises about how it's going to be 4 months from now. I'm giving her the ultimatum before we leave here. Like I said, I'm not dragging this pain with me to the new place where we have the chance to start from a fresh perspective. I just need to last until then.

Thanks cat


FWH/BS (me)42, FBS/WW 39, married 18 yrs, WW A discovered 3/03/2008, my A discovered 06/2003
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