<BR>Hi Everybody,<P>In responding to people lately, I have found myself having the same thought repeatedly in one fashion or another - so I thought I would get some of your ideas about it...<P>You know how a lot of us speak of God's being with us through the pain and everything...and how He will guide us to where we need to go? <P>Well, I keep thinking that He must have been there when the infidelity was building up, right? <P>What I think I have the most trouble with is...Why would God's "Plan" include Divorce, if He does not want that for His "children"<P>Why, if He is teaching us something...does it not "click" in so that the lesson is learned?<P>Some cases of infidelity are clearly a "wake-up" to what is eroding in the marriage and leads to a wonderful renewal of bonds and spirituality......<P>I can see the purpose of those.<P>Why, then, are there also the ones that have absolutely no redemption value of any kind..I am talking about the ones where neither the H or W learn or change anything? <P>What is the purpose in this kind of outcome?<P>I guess, simply put....I'm asking Is God always there at the beginning or just the devil? If He's not than when does His plan kick in?<P>Yeah, I'm in a "deep" frame of mind!!!!<P>Probably the codeine!!! LOL!!<BR>(I'm sick - not a druggie!!)<P>Seriously, just been thinking about this more and more....<P>HUGS to ALL,<P>Sheba<P>PS - It might be interesting if in responding you say where you believe God's Plan or (or lack thereof) fits with your own situation. There's also the aspect of Fate!! <p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited October 15, 1999).]

Whoa, this is spooky! I just sent you an email before I read this topic.<P>I think we are presented with a situation (not necessarily by Him). God lets us make our own choices about how we deal with it. If we try and solve it ourselves, it may worK out. Then again, it may not. If we use God & his teachings to help us get through it, then we cannot go wrong, even if it doesn’t “seem” right to us.<P>If we had all used God throughout our entire marriage, then we wouldn’t be sitting here right now. We would have done things according to his teachings (the 10 commandments, the golden rule, etc.) and not gotten into this situation.<P>People can choose to get something or not to get something out of every situation. Free will and all that.<P>I don’t believe God’s plan includes divorce. But then again, his plan may not have included marriage to the spouse we have. Doesn’t mean though, that he will “sabotage” the marriage.<P>I don’t really know what I’m saying here. It’s late & far too deep for me right now. I’ll sit on it for a while.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Ya know Sheba I also thought why me, what did I need to learn from this lesson! I have had a lot of obstacles in my life...why another dilly...and I have found that this is one that has certainly made me very much stronger! And I am very definitly going to divorce my husband! No martyr **** for me! Homey don't play that game..<P>I am going slow as he is just figuring it out that he is a sex addict! and it is freaking him out...and it is messing up his work performance and since he needs a family to appear "normal" we will hang out...<P>The best I can say is well what about diabetes or cancer or MS or near sightedness..same kind of thing a real illness...<P>When I finally realized that this was an illness that would not disappear and I had the power to play with it and all the messy things that it could do to my kids I decided that no..this one was dangerous kinda like the crazy ebola virus...don't want to get the fall out or have the kids catch it...<P>my husband is pretty sick....his addiction gave me a bad herpes...he is a doctor! he also is into sadisism, and the kids say that he looks at them funny when they wear their bathing suits or ballet leotards and tights..they are 12 and 14...starting to look like mini victims....so I think by seeing this as an illness it makes it pretty easy to put it into perspective. God didn't make the previous generation have the predisposition for this stuff..two people got together and made your husband and voila...this is the result...takes time to get there and time to fix it or control it...I have too little time and I have spent too long nurturing it by making excuses for his rude behavior toward me and his absence as a father...poor hard working doctor...there is no excuse..never..its an illness

Sheba,<P>Excellent thread! Along the same lines...<P>How do you tell the difference between God "telling" you something and wishful thinking?<P>I have been told that God would never "lead" you against his teachings. That makes sense.<P>My W (the betrayer, and the OM for that matter) are very religious (what a paradox). She is totally in conflict right now with what she knows is right and what she wants. She keeps waiting for the divine meesage she wants. She has even looked through the bible for loopholes to the prohibition against divorce.<P>So everyone - how do you tell the difference?

Sheba,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well, I keep thinking that He must have been there when the infidelity was building up, right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, He was there but the reason the infidelity occurred was because we humans are sinful naturally which means that we tend to go against His will. Satan entices us to stay there because he controls the material world. God has not yet taken those powers away from him.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What I think I have the most trouble with is...Why would God's "Plan" include Divorce, if He does not want that for His "children"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He only allowed divorce as an out for those children who had hard hearts. It was basically an allowance He made so Moses could make the people happy so to speak. In Malachi it states that God hates divorce. I am convinced that any child of His will not seek divorce because His child loves Him and wants nothing more than to do those things that please Him.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why, if He is teaching us something...does it not "click" in so that the lesson is learned?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is the sinful nature that is controlled by Satan that keeps us from learning those lessons sometimes. In order to learn those lessons we must read His word daily and pray to Him asking for forgiveness of the sins that He has revealed to you. Yes, He already knows. The praying is to show that you are aware of where you have failed Him. It is through the reading of His word that He speaks directly to us.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Some cases of infidelity are clearly a "wake-up" to what is eroding in the marriage and leads to a wonderful renewal of bonds and spirituality......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This only occurs if the relationship with Him is developed. Just like communication with your spouse is essential to having a wonderful relationship. The same holds true for a relationship with Him. If we are not reading our Bibles with regularity that relationship also deteriorates and we fall pray to Satan's lies which he mixes a little lie with a lot of truth which makes the whole thing a lie because we are deceived into thing that which is not true because of the little lie mixed in with the truth.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Why, then, are there also the ones that have absolutely no redemption value of any kind..I am talking about the ones where neither the H or W learn or change anything? <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Neither one really knows the Lord and they can't understand why their lives are a mess and they keep seeking something that keeps alluding them. That what they seek is a deep relationship with god. Once we have established that relationship by accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior do they achieve that which they seek.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>What is the purpose in this kind of outcome?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This one only God can answer for each individual. He teaches each the lesson that that a certain individual needed because we all learn what is important to us at that moment. Once we learn that lesson, we are then to testify so that someone else can learn from what He has revealed.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess, simply put....I'm asking Is God always there at the beginning or just the devil? If He's not than when does His plan kick in?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>God's pla is always in effect. Satan tells us that God is not doing anything. God is always on the job. What Satan means for evil is always worked for good for those who loe God. The reason we don't see His plan in effect is because we take our focus off Him onto those things that we think are more important such as money, our spouses, our children, our possesions. We can put nothing before Him. These other things are our gods. He is a jealous God and will not stand for anything to come before Him. Once He is on the throne of our lives then everything becomes clear for the saved where it is cloudy for the unsaved.<P>2sad4words,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>How do you tell the difference between God "telling" you something and wishful thinking?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You know when God is telling you something because the Holy Spirit reveal it to you. Once you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior the Holy Spirit lives in your spirit guiding you along the way. Most preachers don't tell you that Satan guides you in the other direction. There really are only two who control: God and Satan. Satan tells you that you are in control of your life when in reality you are in control of who has control over your life:God or Satan. God plainly says that He will guide your path. I would point you to the scripture but I haven't memorized scripture to know exactly where to go to show you. However, I have come across it in my reading the Bible through in a year. I will complete reading it through in March 2000. It is a good idea to read it through in a year every year because He reveals something new just as you pick up something you missed when you watch a movie again and again.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have been told that God would never "lead" you against his teachings. That makes<BR>sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> He never does. If we are mislead it is Satan who is doing the misleading. We fall for it because Satan knows far more than we give him credit for. God created him just as He created us.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My W (the betrayer, and the OM for that matter) are very religious (what a paradox). She is totally in conflict right now with what she knows is right and what she wants. She keeps waiting for the divine meesage she wants. She has even looked through the bible for loopholes to the prohibition against divorce.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Just as the pharissees and sadducesses were very religious so are your W and the OM. It does not mean that they KNOW Him. To know Him is to love Him, and to love Him is to obey Him. They have not obeyed HIm and therefore do not love Him. When they get to know Him they will see the error of their ways. My W claims to know Him. She knows Him just like Satan knows Him: in a way that doesn't ensure eternal life. It is what is in the heart that determines whether you truly know HIm. I know I sound judgemental. I am not because you will know a tree by its fruit. They have none of the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Read 1 Cor 13, the love chapter.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So everyone - how do you tell the difference?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You tell the difference by reading His word so that He is inmeshed in your flesh and spirit. You have to develop a meaningful relationship with Himas you try to do with your W. Once this happens you will be able to know because He says you must test the Spirit by the Spirit which is through becoming familiar with His word. The only way to do this is to read the word. To get further clarification on thing said in the Bible you must get together with fellow Christians so that He can reveal that clarifictaion through the other believers.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by professorg (edited October 15, 1999).]

Because God is too busy to micromanage individual people's lives?????

Sheba, wish I had all day and much greater wisdom, but I thought I should respond.<P>As I understand it, since that infamous bite of apple, we are all sinners and sin is a part of our world, although we are saved from our sin through our faith in Jesus.<P>Faith alone, Grace alone, Scripture alone. I used to know the latin words for this.<P>God does allow trials to come into our life, but He does not cause us or others to sin. In fact, He promises to provide a way out from under it. <P>He also promises to work all things toward the good and that he has great plans for us.<P>I deeply believe we all have a purpose, but that doesn't necessarily mean that purpose is clear to us.<P>If we live within God's will as outlined in his Word (which includes seeking forgiveness when we mess up, which of course is daily), our lives will be blessed. This is not to be confused with the idea that living a "good life" earns us anything. Our lives are a reflection of our faith. I'm not sure that means our lives will always FEEL blessed, but I think it means his purpose will be fulfilled both in the lives of others and the his ultimate goal of guiding us safety to eternal life with Him.<P>It is my intention to walk closely with God, but I can't say he talks to me in words and tells me what to do. I've seen answers to prayer and I'm sure he works daily in my life, but to be honest I'm a little leary of people who say God clearly calls them to do this or that. One time I was sitting in church and feeling sorry for myself that I wasn't getting time to do my artwork and immediately a thought popped back "That's alright, if you never do it here on earth, you will have time in heaven." I think that was God talking.<P>Two times when I was really upset and laying in bed praying with tears running down my face I asked for a sign that things would improve. Both times at that very instant my H rolled over, put his arm around me. One time he said, don't worry...everything will be fine. I think he was asleep and I really don't think he knew I was awake or crying. I think that was a direct sign.<P>Sheba, I know you are not only concerned about your marriage, but you are deeply concerned about your H regardless of what happens to your marriage. That is some kind of love, by the way. One book I really suggest you look into is "The Power of a Praying Wife" by Stormie Omarian. Sometimes the best thing we can do is pray and let God do the rest. This gives you a great prayer framework...not magic words, but guides you to pray in all areas of your H's life.<P>I don't know the answer to your question specifically about marriage and the why's. I do know that God sometimes says, right now.<P> <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

For a really scary answer to your question, read Job. <P>But also pay attention that everything he lost was also restored to him because of his faithfulnes.<P>One of the verses that keeps coming to me, is "I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten." Joel 2:25<P> <P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>

Hi Everyone -<P>Thank you all for the responses...I am reading and thinking ......just wanted to pop in here for a second to say Hi to Mrs. M4B!!!<P>Hello Mrs. M4B - I am so glad to hear from you and have missed you. I am very worried about you and I have been praying for a resolution to your situation and a calming of your fears.<P>Make sure you keep us updated...I don't respond to emails cuz I don't know who sees what........but I am here!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

Hiya. I have to pop in here too. I must agree with Faith Hope Love's recommendation of Stormie O'Martian's book "Power of a Praying Wife" . While we can't actually MOVE our spouses towards godliness (wouldn't that be great) we can pray for the Holy Spirit to be active in their lives. I believe that, inasmuch as our lives overlap/intersect with our spouses, we have the authority to ask God to intervene on our behalf. I'd like to hear from other Christians on their opinion of this theory, tho. I know that God doesn't force himself on us, but I think we can ask for God to work in our relationships with our spouses. What do you all think?<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>

God was there at the begining of the affair. But God gave us free will, to do as we please, and sometime if we don't like what God is saying we don't listen. I thought my H wouldn't do something like this because of his beliefs, but somewhere he began to doubt and lost his way. I knew he was having problems just didn't know how much. Also think in my case being so overwhelmed with everything that was happening I couldn't understand why would God let something like this to happen. But now I realize God doesn't let we do by our choices. But God is very patient and is always waiting for us to hope our ears and our heart to Him. I know the only way I'have gotten this far is because of my belief. Also I no long ask For what I want, but to help me deal with what is going on and to know the right things to do. I am no long ask for specific things, like having my H to come home. Instead I pray for guidance and for my H to be all right. I know that if H choses not to listen to God then there is nothing God or I can do. I have come to accept this and going on with my life with God's help. I still plan to do plan A and then B but I know it his choice and I have to live with it.<BR> Gosh such deep thinking. My brain hurts. We do get on some thought provoking subjects. <p>[This message has been edited by SDS (edited October 15, 1999).]

Sheba, <P>Excellent thread. There isn't much more I can add, but of course I'll try. <P>We should keep in mind that Satan takes pleasure in ruining marriages. Regardless if they are Christian or not. Of course, I believe he takes extreme joy at breaking a part a marriage with those who are one with Christ. <P>If he destroys our family, he chips away at our faith. "Maybe God doesn't care about me" we think. "Maybe I'm not really saved" we think. And on and on. If our faith is damaged, we aren't going to be a witness for Christ and so Satan claims victory.<P>Satan's warfare strategy is simple - disrupt relationships. The biblical answer is simple - we must resist this strategy on a continual basis.<P>Our prayers, especially spiritual warfare prayers, are our sword and shield for this battle. Add in the MB principals for depositing love units and our armour is complete. <P>Our battle is a little tougher, make that a lot tougher, when betrayal has infected the marriage bond. Often, Satan has a pretty strong foothold in the mind of the betrayer. Sometimes the foothold is in the betrayed who are unwilling to forgive. Time, God's grace, prayer and committment love can heal the damage.<P>Committment love is very important for all of us and is forgotten by many. Committment love doesn't mean that we close up and endure a horrible marriage. It doesn't mean we become martyrs by suffering with unending pain. It means we maintain hope. It means we maintain unending prayer. It means we sacrifice what we have to to make it work.<P>I suppose what I'm trying to say is that God can take the sin of infidelity and make good come out of it. That blessing is reserved for those who love Him.<P>I guess I got off the topic a little. I guess I'm in a "deep" frame of mind too. <P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited October 15, 1999).]

Hi Sheba<P> I have been reading my of the bible since discovery then I have ever done in my marriage. My wife & I go to church every Sunday and say our prayers at dinnertime. We both believe in God but neither of us took the time to get to know him. Our pastor has told us many times that it usually takes a broken man to search for god. You know what if I did not have this problem I don't know if I ever would have looked for God for help. I do not believe God could ever create a sin but he can turn something that is so painful to become something so beautiful. I have a whole new look on my relationship with my W now. I think it has been year's sense I looked forward to seeing her every day when I get home. To talk to her ask her about her day & how she feels about things.<BR> To day I was reading about praying. How to pray with confidence. What to pray for and how often. I came across many quotes that have stuck with me. So first thing I did was take five minuets to pray & ask for Gods help. To make me stronger, Grant me the wisdom to deal with each day as it comes. I came across many scriptures that have brought me peace today I hope that they will do the same for you.<P>Jesus says, "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete." <P>Believe. Jesus promises in Matthew 21:22, "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." Believing is at the heart of answered prayer. But how do you get this faith to believe? Should you try to work up some kind of state of mind that will in some way equal faith? Of course<BR>Not. <P>God does not require you to have great faith. You simply are to have faith in a great God. Jesus says: <P> If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, "Move from here to there" and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.<P>James instructs you to "ask in faith without any doubting" for the double-minded person cannot expect God to answer Hi prayers. <P>Don't worry about anything; instead, pray about everything; tell God your needs and don't forget to thank him for his answers. If you do this you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand. His peace will keep your thoughts and your hearts quiet and at rest as you trust in Christ Jesus.<P>So then again I prayed to God and asked him to help take care of our family please teach me to be the kind of husband who knows & can show his wife that she is truly loved, adored & Cherished. Please Lord help us work threw this so that we can become a family in you. I also asked the lord to open my W heart and let her know how much she is loved and let our families love renter her heart. I also asked for a simple need to please let my wife call me at work today just to hear her voice. & Guess what five minutes after that prayer she called. Not to say she loved me but just to let me know that she was thinking of me. I felt as the lord was with us. & He will not let any man break what he has created. It will still take a lot of work & I hope one day she will tell me that she is staying. But to know that God is with us helps so much. I hope when you pray that you will know that God is with you. He may not doe things the way we want but he will do the things for us that we need. His goal remember is to have us be with him & to know & love him. <BR> I must work very hard on trying to learn to know & trust God more. I am sorrowed that it took something so painful to teach me this. I broke a commandment before my W ever did. I was to love my W as to love oneself. I forgot that one. I pray every day that I never forget that again. <P>God's love be with you<P>Hugs<P>LotsofHope<BR><P>------------------<BR>

hi sheba, thanks for posting this topic! cl

sheba, i feel honored to give you advice as i have taken a lot of yours. God gives us (betrayers) the freedom of choice. we know whats wrong yet we do it. When the A finally ends we can choose to move on to someone else or turn our lives over to Him and follow Him in ur new lives. Some unfortunately choose to hurt other people for the rest of their lives too. NOT ME. Im resloved that my marriage may not reconcile, but I will continue in my new path. God will not let us go through what we cannot handle. we have a right to expect God to answer our prayers-but no right to pout if He doesnt. hes too wise to make mistakes-to loving to be unkind and He doesnt have to explain because He is a soverign God. ill pray for you tonight. Have faith in Him. thats all we can do.<BR>jerry-

Sheba,<P>The thing with God's plan is that He also gave us free will and we don't have to follow His plan. Life goes well when we do, but our resulting sin makes our lives the mess we are all in in this forum.<P>Read Romans 1 and see how God will "Give us up" to our sins. His will is not divorce, that is a result of poor choices one or both of us have made in our marriages. Hang in there and know that God does love us and His plan is perfect if we only follow it.

I feel as though I didn't listen to God when i was involved with my affair, his voice was clear and I ignored it. <P>After the trauma I turned to God (and don't we all in times of duress?) to help me and realized I should keep him there constantly, not just in times of hardship. It's a personal relationship I have with Him and it's the most important aspect of my life.<P>Sheba, I believe God was there during the infidelity, but some of us chose not to listen to Him unfortunately and suffered because of it. He had laid out a plan for all to follow (10 Commandments) that will give us the tools for a better life, but some of us will choose another path and end up hurting because of it. It's the "freewill" aspect of it all, all people have the choice and some choose the wrong path. <P>I have a concern though. And forgive me for voicing it. But some who are wonderful Christians will stay with their wives/husbands because of what they perceive to be God's will, and risk STD's. I'm talking of numerous affairs that show no signs of the adulterer's actions ending. I'm truly concerned for their health, is this what God has in mind when he speaks of forgiveness? Or is it the "dusting off the sandals"? I feel strongly that God's love and forgiveness does not mean abusing oneself and allowing someone to emotionally and perhaps physically harm another.<p>[This message has been edited by Connor (edited October 16, 1999).]

I don't want to leave this hanging out here with out thank yous to those of you who have posted.....<P>I am still contemplating all of this and I have no idea if I will ever figure it out for myself.....<P>Hearing all of your opinions helps me tremendously and I thank you for them.<P>I think that this train of thought began for me when I reflect on my lifetime feeling of divorce .... I am having a very hard time with:<P>1) Divorce in general...I know that God allows if adultery, but is that keeping my vow of better or worse when I know that my H needs help? Or is that abandonment as much as his abandonment of me?<P>2) As if that is not paining me enough, to have to sign papers that are lies is tearing me apart.....IRRECONSILABLE DIFFERENCES my A$$!!!! I CANNOT do that!! And because the lawyer told me a year ago that I did not need to prove adultery because of no-fault...I have no prove (not enough anyway) to put adultery on the papers. <P>I just might be seen on your national news some night as the crazy woman who went to the media because the laws suck!!!!<P>I'm not kidding.....I'm really torn about this and don't know what to do or how to "think" my way past this.<P>HUGS for listening and offering your opinions.<P>Sheba<BR>