Debate moved from Bh75's thread in GQ2. The latter two points have been rolling around in my head for a few weeks now but I haven't taken the time to post them.


Well said.

Bh75's WW wanted him to pick a church and start going...and then when he didn't, her response was to start an A? How moral.

RB's WW was/is a Christian and didn't have any trouble committing the sin of adultery...and yet somehow an abortion is unthinkable because she's a Christian and abortion is murder and therefore a sin? I thought sin was sin?

When people do bad things it's because God gives them free will and they choose to do evil. And yet people pray that God will 'work on his/her heart'. Ummm...I thought we had free will?

I find God's version of "free will" amusing.

I walk into a convenient store with a handgun, point it straight at the clerk's head and say, "You have free will. You can choose to give me the contents of the cash register or not. It's your call."

Aren't I merciful? I allowed the clerk to exercise his free will!

I always liked Andy Prieboy's "Tomorrow Wendy" song.

Why?

Good music, good lyrics.

"It is complete now the two ends of time are neatly tied
A one-way street, she's walking to end of the line
And there she meets the faces she keeps in her heart and mind

They say 'good bye' Tomorrow, Wendy, is going to die,
They say 'good bye' Tomorrow, Wendy, is going to die,

Underneath the chilly gray November sky
We can make believe that Kennedy is still alive and
Were shooting for the moon and smiling Jackie's driving by and

They say 'good try'
Tomorrow Wendy is going to die
Tomorrow Wendy is going to die

I told the priest, Don't count on any second coming
God got his [censored] kicked the first time he came down here slumming
He had the balls to come, the gall to die and then forgive us
No, I don't wonder why, I wonder what he thought it would get us
Hey, hey, good bye
Tomorrow Wendy's going to die

Hey, hey, good bye
Tomorrow Wendy's going to die
Tomorrow Wendy's going to die

Only God says jump
So I set the time
'Cause if he ever saw her
It was through these eyes of mine!
And if he ever suffered it was me who did his crying

Hey hey, good bye
Tomorrow Wendy's going to die
(Tomorrow Wendy's going to die)
Tomorrow Wendy's going to die
(Tomorrow Wendy's going to die)
Tomorrow Wendy'd going to die

Hey, hey, good bye
Tomorrow Wendy's going to die

Hey, hey, good bye
Tomorrow Wendy's going to die
Tomorrow Wendy's going to die
Tomorrow Wendys going to die"

-Andy Prieboy, "Tomorrow Wendy"


I also like XTC's "Dear God"

-ol' 2long

bitbucket (C00per?) - the questions seem insincere at best and not truly inquiring. Just more attempts to bash believers and say "everyone else except for Christians can sin."

There is a difference between "Should not" and "Can not."

Perhaps you might want to start there.


You begin by taking a gift of God to us (Free Will, the ability to choose) and fail to see the very same application of "lack of humble submission TO God" to Eve and her exercise of "free will" and the abuse of it.

The remaining respondents posts are more of the same and not worthy of serious discussion of legitmate, sincere, questions rather than "points" of scoffers.

Whatever FH.

Just let your wife justify her affair with scripture and your own church turn you away because "god hates divorce", but you aren't the one who's filing for divorce OR committing adultery.

Church is nothing more than guilt relief and permission to be immoral for 6 straight days, cause we're "pre-forgiven" it doesn't matter how much ruin you leave in your wake.

Oh yeah, the ones who act like that (90%) "aren't really saved", heard that one too.

All I can add is that the three worst things that have ever happened in my life, were done to me 'in the name of religion.' Yet I still attend church every week. But it's mainly to give my D17 a foundation, so she will have the knowledge she needs to make her own religious decisions as an adult.

Well, Bitbucket, that's why I don't pray for God to make people do something or to change them or show them the light according to what I think is the light.

I pray because praying helps me keep other people's needs in mind. Praying helps me be less selfish, but it doesn't really do anything else. I believe God is all knowing, so He knows what's best. Then, God is all powerful so he can do anything. And he's all good. So, He'll know what's best to do, and he'll do it. I can only see a very small picture. God certainly doesn't need little old me to tell him anything.

I'm a Christian, but I certainly don't equate murder with adultery. God may for give someone for murder as quickly as someone who commits adultery, but the damage the behaviors cause are very different. (BTW, I'm not sure if I consider all abortion murder. It's a difficult question that I'm very conflicted about.)

Plus, plenty of people don't have any problems committing sins like lust, avarice, gluttony, hubris, etc. Most of the time, we are totally unaware we are even guilty of these.

Finally, and obviously, Christians aren't the only ones who have affairs. It's just annoying at times when anyone says "It's my exact religion or you're going to hell," and then that person doesn't practice what he/she preaches.

And, Pariah, that former church stinks. Not all religion is good, and not all religious organizations are good.

Actually I moved my post of my own accord a minute or two after I posted it. I saw the debate that I was entering into as extraneous to Bh75's thread.


It's unfortunate that you dismiss questions that are inconvenient and difficult to answer as 'insincere', but to each his own. I'm not here to bash anyone's beliefs; I'm pointing out what I see as inconsistencies between actions and professed beliefs.


Yes. We 'should not' cheat on our spouses. We 'should not' steal or commit murder. But we can do all these things. Just because you can do a thing does not mean you should do a thing. I wasn't aware that this was under debate.


I actually have more of a religious education than the average agnostic. God told Adam and Eve that they could eat the fruit of any tree in the garden, except from the tree of knowledge, which was forbidden. As any parent can tell you, the predictable happened, and Eve bit into the apple. If she had simply obeyed God's instructions (humbly submitting to God, if you will), she could have exercised free will within the given limitations. Just because she could eat the apple didn't mean she should have. Eating the apple was clearly an abuse of free will.

I'm not exactly sure how that is relevant to praying that God "works on people's hearts" when we're supposed to have free will. The Pharoh might have let the Israelites go earlier if God hadn't hardened his heart.

That's what I was driving at! People praying for God to make people do something seems like praying for a removal of free will.


That sounds like a great place to come from. I know that focusing outside myself helps me be less selfish, and can make my own issues/wants/problems seem less important.




Exactly! Inconsistency between action and belief is one thing - but when someone is vocal and strident in their belief, the hypocrisy is magnified somehow.

This is what I was referring to as "insincere."




You've got to be kidding here, bitbucket.

So let's take it apart and address each disrespectful judgment and perhaps you'll see a little more clearly what I meant by "insincere questions."

It's unfortunate that you dismiss questions that are inconvenient and difficult to answer as 'insincere', but to each his own.

It's not the question that is insincere, it is the obvious tone and motivation behind that question. The question is phrased to "prove a preconceived point," not to have a sincerely inquiring discussion with the possibility of changing one's mind (when a decision on the point had not already been "written in concrete" in the mind of the questioner).

As some on system can attest, I have not been "shy" about addressing, dicussing, even arguing, "inconvenient" and "difficult" issues. I have found it to be pointless to engage in such discussions with dogmatic opponents to God and Christianity because emotions generally tend to rule and "reasoned discussion" soon flies out the window. I CHOOSE not to waste my time in such pointless endeavors. I WILL discuss them when someone may be in disagreement but open to an honest discussion.

I'm not here to bash anyone's beliefs

Yes you are, just like MyRev and Pariah are, even if you don't want to admit it to yourself. You just phrase it in a little less "in your face" manner. But the presupposition comes through loud and clear nonetheless.

Don't believe me? Just look at the Title to your thread. "Christians" and adultery. Not one other "group" included in your premise of inconsistencies between actions and professed beliefs.


I'm pointing out what I see as inconsistencies between actions and professed beliefs.

Interesting. And just how is that applicable ONLY to Christian beliefs? I think if you look closely, as in Pariah's experience, you will find that the "problem" is not with the faith, but with fallable human beings misapplying Scripture. As I have told Pariah before, the church of his experience was NOT following Scripture but was "picking and choosing" only what they wanted to and rejecting the totality of Scripture.

I happen to agree with you regarding many who profess a belief in Christ as well as many who profess a belief in other faiths, including the faith of Atheism. There often ARE "inconsistencies between actions and professed beliefs."

In virtually ALL cases it comes down to an issue of Pride in Self, and that is what Satan appealed to with Eve, that she would "be like God" rather than the humble servant of God.


So let's go back to the opening quotation:

The question is NOT about "removing free will," but one of addressing WHAT it is that "informs the will" so that a person can choose. Quite simply, God COULD have created human beings without "free will," and could have thus created a race of "robots," unable (incapable) of love or of choosing to love.

He could have created human beings to operate ONLY on the level of "instinct" and REACTIVE to their environment rather than with the ability to be proactive regardless of circumstances, including loving enough to die for someone who has not "merited" such a sacrifice.

The "change" that is prayed for comes from humble obedience to the Greatest Commandment and the Second Greatest Commandment. On those two hang all the rest.



That's correct. However, don't equate it with what "any parent can tell you." Adam and Eve were created perfect and without sin. Temptation TO sin entered in the form of "smooth talking, Scripture twisting, Satan. Rather than choose to listen to God, Eve chose to listen to her own pride....and the rest as they say, "is history." You contention that "the predictable happened" implies that people will ALWAYS choose "badly," for "self-interest" ahead of anyone else, and I disagree with that. That some people WILL do so is given. Equally true is that some people will not. The "motivation" for the "will not" is the question that needs addressing. What IS IT that informs the will and why "should not" someone choose "wrong?"

You can think what you want. I have no axe to grind with Christianity in particular - it is with hypocrisy in general. The publicly pious who beat their chests and tell the rest of us how moral they are, while going home and cheating on their wives and beating their children. The ecologist activist actors who tell the rest of us to carpool, while they drive about in stretch limosines and private aircraft.


This 'group' and 'subject' were the topic of heated debate on BH75's thread before the relevant posts were moved to OT, which happened after I started this thread. My motivation was to title the thread appropriately, not send a message.


It isn't. However, the actions of professed believers were the topic of this thread. As far as I know, we only have a handful of posters from other faiths here. To me the board seems to be largely composed of evangelical Christians, non-practicing Christians (you may have another term for them), agnostics, and the odd atheist.


You were absolutely correct to tell him that.

A very dear friend of mine (now deceased) had a quote that he attributed to Paul: In all things, preach Christ, and if you have to, use words. I don't know if this quote is correct or not, but it's always stuck with me.


So is this why I see many believers attributing sin/evil to Satan and not to individual flaws or failings? The notion that 'original sin' originates with Satan?



I think you lost me there. Can you restate that please?


I actually saw a parallel with children. Most children (and many adults) are about testing limits - seeing how far they can go or what they can get away with. It's about testing authority. If I tell my DS4 that he can play anywhere in the house except for one particular room, I'm fairly certain he will go in there - it may take 15 minutes or it may take 2 days. When he does, he will be corrected somehow.

So the parallel I saw was that Adam and Eve were created without sin, as my DS0 was born without the ability to disobey me - because he lacks the ability to comprehend when I tell him to stay out of the dog's water bowl. As he gets older and becomes more aware, he will eventually reach a point where he understands that I want him to stay out of the dog's water bowl, but will choose to mess with it anyway.

That was why I said 'as any parent knows'. It seems predictable to me that children will test limits, and that was the metaphor I was using.

Um, excuse me? I'm not here to "bash" "your" beliefs.

I disagree with some things you say, but I haven't named you PERSONALLY......yet.

I'm just not a hypocrite cramming kool aid down other people's throats.

When your church turns you out into the wilderness because of someone else's sin, let me know. You might just experience a little bitterness.

All of the sanctamonious religious ones bashed Job for his bitterness, JUST LIKE YOU DO. We are allowed to lament and complain about being wronged. I have every right to warn just how corrupt the church really is. The church is a viper's nest and satan freely walks the halls, unless you are so sinless that there is a hedge built around you.


When you've met the Man himself, let me know.

We'll compare notes.

Why is it bad to want to be God-like? Supposing God made us in his image, which I believe although I doubt God has a corporal body, wouldn't that point to God wanting us to be as like him as possible?

But, then, I'm uncomfortable with the word "sin." I prefer "evil doing" and "wrong." I don't believe in the concept of original sin either. I'm a practicing Christian, and I have very different beliefs from hardline evangelicals or Roman Catholics.

Did you know that a lot of the early Christians didn't share the same beliefs about Christ? That's what the conference at Nicene was supposed to solve. LOL.

Pariah, your ex is a nut job. I know she acted atrociously. But, surely you wouldn't want to be married to someone who could treat another person the way she did you or the way she treated your pet.

If God is omniscient, there can be no truly free will.

God can "see the future", for lack of a better term. He knows what is going to happen before it happens. Therefore, we do not have free will, even though we may perceive it as such.

If we truly had free will, and the future wasn't set in stone already, God would no more be able to see the future than you or I.

Of course, that would make him less than omniscient, which brings up the question, "What else can't God do?"

Krazy, I disagree. Knowing the future does not rob someone of free choice. Do I believe God knows every detail? Hmm. I think He could, but I doubt that. I think of it more of God seeing the whole pattern of the tapestry while I only see my own thread and parts of those threads that are near mine.

Plus, consider the prophesies of ancient greek myth. Oedipus knew his future thanks to a prophesy, but that knowledge didn't dictate his actions nor the actions of others.