You had better be prepared to sit next to OM on the plane.

BH75:

WW: "It's OVER NOW! You told everybody!"

BH: (calmly) I asked for thier help in helping me fix our marriage.

WW: "But you have EMBARASSED me in FRONT OF MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY!"

BH: (calmly) I explained the situation to them, and my plan for working thru these problems in our marriage, and how they can help.

WW: "HOW can I ever live with you again! How can I face these people again!"

BH: By working with me to recover this marriage, and these are the first steps:

A. No Contact
B. We move in together and live as Man and Wife again.
C. I'm committed to fixing the following things in ME that have created a Marriage that was "all it could be"

Then move to other subjects.

Plan A her. Let her buy you T-shirts. Is it manipulation? Probably. But so what. It's a chance to work with her, on something.

LG

You never told us if OM knows what you look like. Seems to me that she might have shown him pictures of her that might include you.

WS's typically have to focus on something. It keeps ones mind off of the really bad thing they are doing, aka having an A.

I've already advised him to avoid getting there too early & giving OM a chance to wimp out.

There oughta be plenty of "accidentally" spilled drinks on that flight. For starters.

lest anyone forget the doctors advice. win this woman back at your own peril.

I'm really not worried to much if OM shows up on the plane.

He's the one that's going to be uncomfortable on the plane, sitting next to me, knowing what I know.

If he shows up, he's an idiot, plain and simple.

I WILL remain calm, and perhaps talk to him, just to pick his brain a bit...

If he has an ounce of brains, he's not going to be on that flight.

I don't know if he knows for sure what I look like. My wife has a picture of her and myself on her MySpace page, but it's an extreme close-up, and only half of my face is really showing.

I will suggest that if YOU have an ounce of brains, you will NOT sit next to him and risk a confrontation. The feds do not take kindly to issues on planes. If you insist on going, change your seat.

I am curious...since airlines do not give out passenger names, how do you know you are sitting next to him on this flight???

As I've stated, he sent his flight information to her via e-mail...

His seat location was included in the information he sent.

Was just thinking about this.

She did NOT like the advice Dr. Harley gave you....which was to divorce her.

If she really wanted you to FILE NOW, she would have said it w/o all the drama. AND she would have agreed w/ Harley that your M was doomed...adding her own spin to it that you two weren't really meant for each other.

She's not saying that.

I'm almost positive she'll see you.

BTW: Why did you send OM a copy of Dr. Harley's letter?

I'm not sure really...

But, I think because I knew he would send it to her...

I wanted her to see that she's got some seriously deep emotional issues that she needs to overcome.

That's not to say that I have things to work on myself, especially after all of this is said is done, but I'm admitting that I need some help... She can't see that.

Also, I wanted OM to know that my wife is messed up, and even though we both know that, I'm still willing to work things out.

And yes, I agree, she will see me this weekend. The outcome of which, I won't know... but she will see me.

It's deep (REALLY deep at this point) inside her that marriage is important. She always truly felt that when she got married it would be forever. If she really wanted a divorce, she would have filed before she left.

I was thinking last night, that part of what's maybe going on is rooted in her childhood. There's some molestation history. There was a neighbor that molested her and her sister. Her dad never knew about it until she was in high school. I really think that she felt her dad should have done something to protect her, and to keep it from happening... but he never knew. Her dad did fly up to where they used to live to confront (kill?) this guy. But, he found out that he was already dead.

I don't know... part of me tells me that she really needs to know that I'm going to protect her at all costs. However, I'm not really sure how far the "all costs" thing is going to go at this point.

BH75 - can we talk for a minute?

Feels good to be "in control" again, doesn't it?

You've destabilized, perhaps even broken up the affair, at least from the OM's side.

You've exposed her affair to people she is "concerned about" regarding their opinion of her.

You are "going there" to present an ultimatum, the ultimate in "control."


What do YOU want BH?

WHY are you even trying to break up the affair?

WHY are you even "considering" attempting to recover your marriage, and on WHAT "terms?"


Perhaps now is a good time for you to do a little "self-examination" of your motives and goals, of what YOU are willing to do or not do, of WHY you want to recover your marriage and in what FORM would you like to have a marriage to your wife.

While others on the system may disagree with me, I base MY perspective on recovery following adultery on the Scripture, and my "advice" to other professing believers ON what God has to say in addition to what "practical, perhaps even secular" things you can do (because it is NOT enough to merely say, "well, I leave it in God's hands.")

BH, YOU are the spiritual head of your marriage. YOU are Christ's "stand-in" in your marriage. Do you intend to fulfill that role or do you intend to "go it without God" in your efforts? Do you intend to have Christ as Lord of your life and Lord of your wife's life, AND Lord of your marriage, or do you intend to "try it without God?"

BH, there is, in my humble opinion, a rather large difference between STANDING for what is right and being Obstinate and Controlling and Manipulating.

So how is your "standing with God" these days?



Let's do a little review of this thread and your situation, to hopefully frame some areas for you to think about before you go down to see your wife.

Back on page 1 of this thread I posted the following to you, so let's review how some of these things have progressed:
sundevil98 - I'm going to assume from your posting for advice here that you DO want to try to save your marriage, so I will offer you some suggestions along that line.

However, having said that, you need a "wake up call" for yourself.

You are approaching this from a way too "analytical" standpoint.

What is involved here are EMOTIONS, not logical thinking.

Having read through your JFO post, a few things are crystal clear at this point.

1. Your wife has already "checked out" of the marriage, due primarily to the separation. That (the separation) was "idiotic" in my humble opinion, but she has been living as a "single woman," with single female roomate(s) most likely.

Your threats of divorce do not scare me! That's what I have wanted all along, especially given your controlling and manipulative behavior.

This is the Wayward Spouse mindset of justification for having an affair. In their mind, they are "already" divorced.

A word of caution for you: You are using the "threat of divorce" as a means of manipulative control to get her to do what YOU want, rather than as principled stance as a consequence of her choice to disobey God and to commit adultery. Divorce is NOT a "weapon," it is a very sad consequence of unrepentant behavior because God wants to protect the Faithful Spouse from sin and sinful responses to being sinned against. The thought here is "Be angry (righteous anger over sin), but in your anger do not also sin."(Don't use anger as an excuse to commit sins of response yourself).

You are "justifying" your ultimatum as being "her choice," when in reality she is in no position TO choose right now. Until she sees her actions first as sin against God, she will be in no position to repent of them and seek forgiveness and restoration.


Your imposition on me ruins any sort of fun I might want to have!

The "fun" of being a single woman, not a married woman. It's part of the Wayward Spouse training manual.


It's like beating a kid while at the fair, and expect that they have fun. It makes no damn sense!

There is nothing "fun" about adultery or about recovery from adultery. It is WORK. It is humble submission of "self" and "self-centered emotions" TO God as Sovereign Lord, who BOUGHT you with the "price" of Jesus Christ.

This is the EXPECTED response of someone who IS under the "allure" of sin. It is THAT issue that must be brought to bear on our responsibility TO God, even when we don't "feel like it."


2. Marriage is nothing like dating or "shacking up," so your previous years with her are essentially meaningless and all you have is some 18 months of being married.

Neither of you has been doing a "good job" at "being married," and neither of you has been doing a "good job" of having Christ as the center of your lives and marriage, despite statements of "belief in God." God has assigned ROLES to both husbands and wives, and you have both been ignoring them and "doing your own thing" instead.

The question now is will you continue downthat path or will you actually turn TO God, not as some "band-aid" approach, but in really putting God at the head of your lives and marriage?


3. Unless you are a really poor husband (i.e. wife abuser, etc.), then THE issue in your marriage right now is a lack of meeting each other's Emotional Needs (not at all surprising since you are both living apart and living as though you ARE single).

You have listed some EN's that you think are important. God gave us our emotions, so it would seem to "make sense" to be cognizant of them and to actively work to meet them.

The Second Greatest Commandment is "in play" here: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself. "


4. Your "fight," if you choose to accept the assignment, is going to be "one sided" for quite a while, so you MUST commit to enduring through some very difficult times to come and to the commitment to DO what is necessary even though it seems as though your wife is "doing nothing." Please don't underestimate the emotional stress and toll on yourself of doing this if you choose to attempt to recover your marriage rather than to simply divorce her.

[color: blue] I am staying steadfast... she either meets me, and we reconcile on MY terms, or it's divorce time when I get back. [/color]

You certainly have the right to a divorce, if that is what you choose, but you are "thinking analytically" and not emotionally. You are NOT understanding the dynamics of an affair, nor are you understanding what WITHDRAWAL is and the INABILITY of a WS to think clearly while in Withdrawal.

Your "plan" WILL result in a divorce IF you think that this is "being steadfast." If a divorce is really what you want, and the rest of this is just to make yourself look like the "good guy" so when you DO divorce her you can maintain your "dignity," then by all means be "steadfast" in this manner. However, if your true goal and desire IS to recover your wife and marriage, then this ULTIMATUM needs to go. Divorce WILL remain an option, but your wife hasn't even made it to the point of being able to repent yet, and that is a result of very poor emphasis on God IN your marriage prior to all of this.



5. BRASS TACKS time.

a. Call the P.O.S. "Other Man" (do NOT email him, he needs to hear your voice, firm, tinged with anger, and he needs to KNOW that you WILL FIGHT HIM with everything at your disposal) immediately and tell him you know about him and your 36 year old wife. Ask him if he knows you and your wife are Married. Ask him if he thinks she is worth his being dragged into divorce court for "alienation of affection" and exposed as being a person of low moral values and a cheater who has no respect for marriage. Put HIM "on the spot" for his "side of the affair." IF he is a [censored], then be ready to expose what he is doing to his parents, work, etc. (so if you don't already know that sort of information, get cracking on getting it NOW).

DONE.

Good job!


b. Regardless of outcome, YOU fly down there and you DO NOT spend your time apart from your wife, and I don't care if she IS going "camping" for real. Take some "camping clothes" with you just in case, but I strongly believe her "camp site" is her apartment and that her roommates will be out of town for the holiday.

PLANNED.

Follow through on this, but don't be obstinately pushy about being with her all the time, like you have her on a choke collar leash. Be prepared for her to try to NOT see you at all. Be ready with LOVE, Patience, and Endurance for any opportunity to BE together with her. Keep YOUR emotional reactions "under control" as best you can and do not let "anger rule."


c. Either she moves back to you or move down to her IMMEDIATELY. Recovery is NOT possible while you are separated.

This "Step" must take place AFTER there is an agreement to "try to recover the marriage." But as long as you are separated, very little can be accomplished in the rebuilding of a marriage. Prior to moving, there are other things, such as a daily devotional that can be used where you can both talk about the devotional on the phone so as to be "on the same page" and have something to talk about that has God as the "center" and each of you as a servant of God.


d. Read all you can about Plan A, Emotional Needs, and the types of affairs to gain knowledge about what is going on in her head and what YOU need to be doing to show her the "real you" that is someone she would want to be married to.

This step appears to be in process. Get a copy of "Torn Asunder" by Dave Carder, you will find some very helpful information in there. In addition, if you'd like some pamphlets our counselor gave my wife and I when we began recovery efforts, I can email them to you. If you want them, give me your email address and I'll send them to you. One is called; "What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour?" and the other is called; "Marriage, Whose Dream?"

Both are written for Christians and the emphasis is on "God's way," not "Man's way."


6. Get ready for your wife to turn into a SHREW and be VERY hurtful to you, to say all sorts of things intended to get you to "accept" that she doesn't love you or want to be married to you. Given her previous statements about wanting a divorce, be ready to let her say whatever she wants but for you to remain steadfast in fighting to SAVE your marriage. In her mind, the marriage is already over.

Forewarned is forearmed.

You guys were right, this is a real s#1t storm. I am sure that she is not happy now.

"I gave you a chance, sorry you had to blow it"

" Don't come down here demanding I spend my f**(ing weekend with you! Not even if you were the pope would that be OK!"

" You have disgraced me in front of my family and friends. They have NO part of this and you should feel ashamed. That's the most humiliating thing I can think of. You have outdone yourself! I am shocked!"

" NEVER call me again

You are an @ss

go 2 [censored]"




7. Document everything, because if it does go to divorce by HER choosing, you will need all of that "stuff."

Here's an e-mail she just sent...

"Hey! We might have to e-mail more (he doesn't have access to my hotmail account) or actually just talk on the phone more than texting...given recent events. I don't want anything to be used against me if it comes down to legal proceedings & actual tangible proof of any inpropriety. But, if you can believe it, he texted me this morning about coming to visit & seeing about a job here!!! :-O He's an engineer & obviously void of common sense. Anyway, have a swell rest of your short day!! xoxo"

Continue to document all things. ( i.e., emails from the OM to her and/or to you )



8. IMMEDIATELY, if not sooner, separate all joint accounts, BEFORE you go down there or have a confrontation with the OM. DO IT TODAY, right now, before you do anything else. You might not believe it, but a Wayward Spouse, can DRAIN every penny you have in order to support her "wayward mindset" and to spend on the affair.

We have always had separate accounts. So, that's no issue.



9. IF she resists immediately ending the affair, be prepared to expose her affair to HER parents and ask them for their help in recovering your marriage because YOU, despite what she has been doing, love her and are committed to your marriage (that's why you married her in the first place).

DONE.



10. There has been no mention in your posts so far of any belief in God, but if there is, talk to your Pastor about the situation as adultery is FORBIDDEN by God.

She is a strong believer in God. I am too, but we don't go to church. Both of us don't believe in organized religion, but would like to attend worship services at some sort of non-denominational church. Our plan was to find one once we are back together.

Right now you are both operating "as if" God was NOT a part of your lives. Perhaps it might be time to reconsider the "place" of God in your lives as you seek to deal with, and recover from, adultery in your lives. What do you think about exploring this a little more?

It would seem that "holding off" and putting God on some "back shelf" in your lives has NOT been very effective for either of you up to this point.



BH75, 2long gave you, in my opinion, a VERY sound and very good post.

Recovery efforts AT THIS POINT IN TIME will be VERY "one sided," with you shouldering virtually the entire load. Are you up to that task? WHY do you want to recover you marriage in the first place? ASK yourself these "tough" questions about your motivation, as they will be the "guide" for you during a very turbulent, rocky, and extremely stressful time for both of you.



You, BH, are God's appointed spiritual leader in your home. Obviously, that role was not a high priority in the past, but here is your opportunity to BE the leader that God intended for you to be.

Here are three truths FROM God to all believers that you can "rest on" and "lean on" through these very difficult times to come, but only if YOU choose to believe God regardless of your feelings and circumstances at the moment:

(1) "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:28-29, NIV)

(2) "I can do everything through him (Christ) who give me strength." (Philippians 4:13, NIV)

(3) "Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy - think about such things. Whatever you have heard from me, or seen in me - put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:4-9, NIV, emphasis added)


BH, you have succeeded in "destabilizing" the affair. Anger and withdrawal have enveloped your wife and in that "fog" you will have to choose your course wisely. She is not capable of making rational choices at this time, but this IS the time when you can show her through your words and actions that GOD is "in control" of you and that you LOVE her even while she is being "unlovely." "This is love, not that we loved God, but that He first loved us and sent His Son to die FOR us."

Are you willing to do the same for your wife and her soul? Think about it, wrestle with it, answer it. HOW will you "interact" with your wife when the opportunity arises?

I have for years stressed the need for PATIENCE on the part of the Betrayed Spouse. YOU are looking for an "immediate end" to the "Waywardness" of your wife, and it's not likely to happen. PATIENCE, forebearance, endurance, faithful commitment to YOUR wedding vows, humble submission of your will to God's will need to be your "watchwords" every day. This is a LONG process.

BH, my marriage was "in the dumper" after a 6 year long affair. It took almost 6 years for us to reach "recovered." What is your marriage worth to you and what are you willing to "endure" for your wife, for your marriage, for a "right relationship" with God?

When you ask God "how much is too much," be sure to include asking Him if the death of His Son was "too much" or was it "what was needed because He first loved us while we were totally unworthy of His love, or His Son's sacrifice FOR us?"


God bless.

**edit**

Yes, IT is.

You know guys, even though YOU don't believe in God, Sun does. And he asked FH for his help.

FH, it's obvious that you put a great deal of time and effort into that well thought out post.

I hope it will help Sun.

Moved to off topics.

Agreed. *edit*

The religion debate has been moved to "OTHER TOPICS" forum.

No more of this particular debate is to be done on this thread.

Back to marriage builders discussions intended to help this member.

c00per

Thanks...

I appreciate the discussion, and I was able to read most of it...

To be honest, right now, my WW and I need God, our friends, and our family to help us out. Neither of the above are the only answer, I think they all need to work together to help us out.

I am still struggling with how much I am willing to endure... Dr. Harley's letter doesn't give me much hope, and that is weighing on my pretty heavily.

I am glad I exposed BEFORE I went down there. It would have been a long weekend otherwise. While I feel there's a chance to get her to agree to my terms of reconciliation, I don't have much hope that it will actually happen. I am willing to accept that and move on.

My plan now is to let her know I am willing to meet her needs...

I sent her a text message telling her that her car insurance payment is due. I asked her if she needed me to pay that for her.

Her reply:


I replied, "Your July payment is due. Do you need me to pay that for you?"

Her:


Me:

"OK, I will take care of that for you."

Then, per an agreement we had WAY before this whole mess started... (I have been paying a substantial debt to credit cards since before we married. I am finally getting to the end of this nonsense, and will make my last payment this month!). Our agreement, was that once I was done, I would help her with her credit cards (we have always had separate finances - she has her accounts and I have mine). These are debts (besides our wedding) that we had prior to our marriage. There is about $1500 that is on one of her cc's that is from our wedding.

She said


(The ACTUAL agreement was that I would start helping her AFTER july... We even discussed that the help would be less than what she is expecting considering we are in the middle of moving to another state, and there are a lot of things to take care of at home)

This is going to be a big dilemma in the near future...

If we are able to come to terms this weekend, I am still willing to help her... I'm not sure if I want to go to plan B, and there's no way in heck I'm going to support her and her wayward ways if I am filing for divorce.

Do I make this part of our joint agreement? She will accuse me of holding money over her head... But, she is holding the boundaries of our marriage over hers...


I guess I'm confused as to how long I try to meet her needs, and when I stop (I assume that stopping is going to Plan B).

Ooh finances... another sore topic of many Ms, and you're likely to get many different responses on that subject .

Here's the approach my FWW and I use in our M:

1. We maintain three sets of accounts - hers, mine, and joint.
2. We are personally responsible for our own person finances, including personal debt.
3. We are jointly responsible for joint expenses and debt (e.g. house mortgage, food bills, etc.).
4. Joint expenses are paid from the joint account. If that isn't possible (e.g. joint account does not have enough to cover), expense is paid from one of our personal accounts, with the understanding and agreement that such payments would be refunded from the joint account once it has enough to cover them.
5. Based on our joint expenses, and any joint investments we would like to make, we agree on what % of our salary we will contribute to the joint account. We review this agreed % every few months, based on the balance in the joint account, and what expenses, investments, etc. we forecast for the future.

So, based on the "financial plan" that seems to work for my FWW and I, I'd advise you to continue looking after any joint debt (e.g. wedding costs) you may have occured while M'd, but don't take on any responsibility for her personal debt.

It is hard to get them to understand that while they are screaming ... "I WANT A DIVORCE" "WE ARE NO LONGER MARRIED IN THE REAL SENSE OF THE WORD"....it's hard for you to pay their obligations. (Crazy-making at its finest.)

Holding money over her head...buying her back...semantics.

Why would she expect you to pay her bills when she no longer wants you as her husband?

It cannot hurt to ask her.

As long as you continue to financially support her...you are financially supporting her lifestyle.

She wants it both ways.

Do you want that?

I would tell her that you will HELP her with her financial obligations once you are TOGETHER as husband and wife.

That's what husbands do.


I am sure that others might have something different to say on this since FS is a need of hers.

JMHO
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