Also, keep in mind there are different meanings about what is "legal".

There are things you can do that are "legal" in the sense of not being criminal. So you won't go to jail for doing them.

Then there is the question of whether particular evidence is admissible if you sue someone. Or if they are criminally prosecuted. Just because the gathering of the evidence was not criminal does NOT mean that the evidence is admissible in court.

So if you are gathering evidence to help you decide how to deal with your spouse, remember that evidence which is more than sufficient to motivate you to file for divorce may not be admissible in the divorce case when it comes time to divide assets, award custody of the kids, etc.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have read up on this topic.

You can be breaking state and FEDERAL laws by using some spying techniques offered. Purchasing these products is not illegal, but using them can be if you don't know the laws. Even using a PI that may implement illegal techniques can cause problems for you!

Sure, you could tape conversations...but only if you are a party involved in them. You can't tape your WS's conversations with others - that violates the wiretapping statutes.

If you are intercepting e-mails then I think there is more gray area because of the newer technologies and the law/case law's failure to move up with the times fast enough. If the computer is in the marital home (jointly owned or family computer) then it may be ok. If it's in the workplace - illegal!

If you wanted to use video surveillance in the marital home, I think you might be safe, but outside of it, I doubt it.

Using a GPS in a car depends on who owns the vehicle. If it's jointly owned or yours, I think you're safe...otherwise, you could be looking at illegal activity.

Good post, hoti.

Charlotte

I hope I am not obsessed. I really don't know. It's hard to step back and look at myself objectively.
I have heard him say (on my IRD [illegal recording device]) that he has not seen her since last July. So I can be pretty sure of that. However, since I have begun using the recorder, I have heard him struggle with his emotions. One time he'll be calling her names and expressing regret and guilt, and then he'll be recalling some "fond memory" or wondering how she's doing. A couple of months ago, he said "No--I'm not going to hurt (me) anymore...but I love the OW ". I'm encouraged that he does talk less and less of her, but then, when he does, I am crushed.
We've been married since I was 18 and I'm now 53. She is now 47. I never really even dated anyone else. I love him very much. I don't know how NOT to be married to him. I can't bear the thought of my family being divided even though our children are grown. Only our son, still in college, is at home now. I don't want them to know what their Dad has done.
Honestly, it's like he's been possessed! Admitting guilt, shame, remorse. I can't believe he has done this and neither can he. But it's like she's had some kind of weird hold on him. He's had two lives. I really think he has broken contact, but I'm not convinced that it wouldn't start again. I feel like I have to be on constant vigil. I actually heard him one time bemoaning the fact that men can't have two wives like in Old Testament days!
I want to try to make him understand the concept of honesty as Dr. Harley describes it. He "kind of" read the book HNHN w/me at the onset, but scoffed at the honesty chapter. Maybe I can get him to read it with me again now. Start over with it. I wish we could afford a good counselor, but we have no money. Chapter 13, lost his business, IRS problems, he's doing part-time carpentry while looking for a job that will let him stay home or that pays enough for me to leave my job and move. So, we have those tremendous pressures, too.
I plan to search for some kind of weekend marriage retreat that is near home and that we can hopefully afford. That would be worlds better than spying, I know.

Also, the point of my post was not really to consider the legal/illegal ramifications. If there's one thing I can say with certainty, it's that my husband would never bring charges against me.
I guess I'm feeling morally guilty for recording him and I really wanted someone to tell me that I'm justified.

Notoveryet,

Sounds like you have your answer.

That he is not in contact. So in this case, I feel your spying is hurting you. In that, you have heard H mention he still has feelings for OW. That his is not over his addiction toward OW. So this hurts you emotionally.

But, give him credit, he has not contacted her. I would suggest you quit monitoring your H unless you begin to see signs that warrant monitoring. Do that for yourself, I believe this would help your healing.

The M retreats are fantastic. I attended a 2 day retreat (free) offered my the military base in my area. It was open to anyone who wanted to attend. The only down side, it was a Thursday-Friday schedule requiring me to take vacation time to attend.

It was a great way to boost recovery focus together.

I would suggest you ask your church, or base chaplain (if you have a base nearby) if they know of what is offered.

Our church schedules weekend marriage building events at very reasonable costs. Typically charging only whats required to cover guest speaker, food, overhead.

If you have a nerar by military base, and need assitance with researching that option, let me know.

-JKT

Thank you, JKT.
You make a lot of sense. I guess I should put away my devices and just continue to meet needs as much as possible -- which by the way, I have been doing.
Hopefully, OW will find someone else to support her and leave my husband alone. (She is 3 times divorced and has broken up at least one other marriage--surely she can find someone else.)
If I can get him to agree to read the Needs book and be open to a retreat, I think maybe I can begin to relax a little and start to trust. I'm just so afraid that if I let go and put trust in him, he'll relapse. I'm sure I could not go through this again. I am only just now having an occasional day when I don't cry despite the anti-depressant. Since 2003 there have been so many changes. Early retirement to help care for aging parents; losing my father; my hysterectomy, losing my mother - Alzheimers; taking a new job; husband going into business; affair; financial problems; losing mother-in-law; moving in with father-in-law as temporary care-takers; Chapter 13; losing father-in-law; IRS problems; etc. Things that once seemed so unthinkable, so foreign have happened.
I just wish so badly that he would take the initiative and think of these things himself, you know? I wish he would think of renewing marriage vows. It would mean so much if he would initiate some of the effort instead of just pretending nothing is wrong and acting normal.

Re the marriage retreats...
We live in a tiny little town and attend a tiny little church that doesn't offer such programs.
I thought of checking with some larger churches in a nearby city. I believe there is a naval base in Pensacola, Florida, which would be fairly close. We are not military...do they offer such programs for civilians?
Thank you so much for your help.

I am VERY familiar with P-cola "retired Navy guy". I still work for the Navy.

Here is the NAS Pensacola Chaplain's website. With contact information.

NAS P-COLA Chaplain

Due to the military poulation in thhat area, they may not be able to assist civilains. BUT, I can guarantee they can point you in the right direction for support... PLEASE call them!

-JKT

Yes, I'm well aware... I remember metally keeping score of who was working harder toward recovery. Does it ever result in arguements and LB's?

Do you think it's healthy?

My recommendation would be to lead by example. Do the leg work in finding a M retreat. If you run into B.S. excuses for from him not to follow thru with attending. It's time to have a chat about effort.

I believe it is only illegal if she records from or off a phone line ('wiretapping'). Having a recorder in the room or car which could record what could otherwise be heard by eavesdropping is not illegal, from what I understand.

A recording is also more definitive and more admissible than a polygraph

your understanding is wrong. You cannot record a conversation in all states without knowledge of at least 1 person...and in some states...alll parties need to consent. The use of a phone is NOT required.

As the thread owner mentioned. It was never a question of legality. It was an issue of morality.

Any legality debate is unnecessary, and off topic.

JKT, I do not appreciate you trying to suggest what I can or cannot post. I was responding to another poster.

Your comments on my posts are unnecessary.

Well, I don't understand how anyone can concern themselves with morality of their actions if they are unconcerned with the legality of their actions.

Since you mentioned P cola, I will assume you are in Florida.

Here is a snippet for you.


A Florida court has ruled that it is not ok to install spyware on your spouse’s computer to monitor what they do, and that, indeed, to do so rises to the level of a punishable criminal offense.

The ruling arose in the context of divorce proceedings between James and Beverly Ann O’Brien. Beverly, apparently suspicious that her spouse was being unfaithful with someone with whom he conversed online, installed Spector, a PC Magazine award winning spy program, on his computer.

Low and behold, it turns out that the game of Yahoo Dominos wasn’t the only thing at which James was playing with his domino partner, and Beverly attempted to introduce the chat logs as evidence in their divorce case.

The evidence, however, was against Beverly, as the Court ruled that by installing the Spector spyware on James’ computer, and reading the logs, Beverly had in fact broken the Florida wiretapping law, which says that anyone who intentionally intercepts any electronic communication without appropriate authority commits a criminal act.

http://www.theinternetpatrol.com/spouse-vs-spouse-spanked-for-spying-with-spector-spyware

Good points.

It is also interesting that this wife...supposedly in a recovered marriage..is not being honest with her husband about her actions. What happened to radical honesty???

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it yet, but if you are considering snooping on your spouse via electronic devices and/or software, private investigator, etc; consult with an attorney first.

Every state is different.

Thanks, JKT, for the info. I am planning to call.
I believe he will be open to attending.
I have to say, he is making some effort. Wouldn't say that I "keep score". He was actually the one who pressed me into going to a counselor. He volunteered to see her individually to work on some issues he has. But all that time, he was still checking up on the OW while she was in rehab (which we paid for), and then began seeing her when she was released. That is why I'm so afraid to let go of my vigilance. He persuaded me so many times that he was trying to work on our marriage while his actions said the opposite. So though he appears to be making effort. I'm just not sure if it's real or just for my benefit.
Also, it came to light that he has some problems for which I believe he should seek more counseling. He was gang raped as a little boy....he never told me this, but he was able to talk about this to the OW who had a similar experience. He said that she was "just like him". He kept it from me and everyone else all these years. Never even told his parents. And there was sexual abuse from several cousins. He admits that he has problems. Says he has prayed and begged God all his life to take these problems away, but he has been in constant battle. With this woman, the wall finally broke. And, to be honest, by using the tape recorder and hearing how he talks to himself so much, it has me a little worried. It just doesn't seem normal. He has actually referred to himself as "we". Do you think I'm overreacting?
Should he get help with all of this prior to marriage counseling? Or maybe that can be done simultaneously.

HRUH??!!

How on Earth did you get roped into THAT???????

Charlotte

Dancing Machine: The first 5 months of the A took place about 300 miles away in the city where most of his work was. Since we had separate checking accts (that mistake has been corrected!)I was not aware of the money that was being shelled out. Since she was unable to hold a job due to her cocaine addition, he totally supprted her - like a 2nd wife. I have held a job for 35 years and contributed to our family. She sucked us dry. I found receipts for the apartment, utilities, some of her old bills, medical bills, contacts, counseling, food -- all the way down to her make-up, hair color, underwear and K-Y. There has never been a time in our marriage when we could have afforded this, but especially at that time, when the business was shaky and as it went downhill fast. I recall I was trying to be so thrifty--taking lunch to work, no Cokes or snacks from the machine, turning out the lights, turning the heat down and putting on an extra sweater. All the while he was cheating on me. And continued up until at least last July when he paid a bad check debt for her -- maybe more, I don't know. It was like he had no control--he had to do whatever it took to "help" and "protect" her. Even though, time and time again, he stated that the A was probably why his business went down -- that God was punishing him.

ba109: Thanks for the advice, ba109. I never meant to imply that I'm unconcerned about obeying the law (although there are many thingss that are immoral yet legal). But a big debate on legal issued was just not the input I was seeking.

medc: "This wife" is not sure she's actually in a "recovered marriage". For 2 yrs. there have been about 20 times when I THOUGHT I WAS in that state, but found that I was wrong. The recorder was the only way I could think of to know for sure where his head is. He even had our counselor convinced he was through w/OW. If I let go and find out later he's still having contact I just don't know if I can take it. I can't do this anymore. It's just a conundrum -- I need to be able to believe he is being true to me-- really willing to work on the marrige in word and in deed before I can take that step.
As a matter of fact the first counselor we saw (the one he lied to) encouraged me to use the GPS that was available through his Nextel account. And the one I saw a couple of times this past May told me to "go for it" when I told her about the tape recorder. Both of these are Christian counselors. And I feel more like I'm "invading his secrecy" rather than his privacy...since his musings are often about the OW,and, yes, I am aware that the courts wouldn't see it that way.

And...how does one go about scheduling a lie detector test? What places offer such a service?