Rain,

You said
Your H would much rather work on the marriage and how to have a good relationship with you and fail, than have you run out seeking happiness with a man that WILL cheat on you, if you don't cheat on him first. Your H would rather give your son a chance to be from a home where the W and H love each other than quit.

You "don't get" that we are not talking about you settling. We are talking about you and your H changing your marriage in fundamental ways. It means you have to change your perspective on happiness, it means you have to address your addictions. You have had two affairs, and devastated your families finances with your decisions. Your current decision seems to be to leave. It is no better than your past ones and any others will not be either UNTIL YOU LEARN WHY YOU HAVE DONE WHAT YOU HAVE DONE. You need to seek counseling, you and your H can have a good marriage where YOU have happy and loved. But, YOU have to face some hard facts that you seem to avoid.

Your H had nothing to do with your gambling, your affairs. He did not get a vote. Neither did your son. You unilaterally made these decisions, all life altering. YOu are considering making another life altering decision and the bases for it is just as bad as your others.

Get help, obtain guidance, learn to see things differently, and if after all of this you feel the need to leave your H, I am betting her will be more accepting of it.

Don't you think it is odd that he is hanging in there on this marriage after all you have done? It means you are loved.

Time to quit acting like the victim and take an active roll in trying to save your marriage just as you have taken an active roll in trying to destroy it.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Rain, I know you feel like this is your true feeling, but if you would read the material here, and some other threads, you would realize that you saying you don’t love him is EXACTLY what every single person who is having an affair says. EVERY SINGLE PERSON. So do you see that it is only because you’ve been having an affair that makes you feel like you don’t love your H? That if you didn’t have a backup plan, your H would look more attractive? That it is the fog – the crazy thinking that wayward spouses get into that makes you think you know what you’re talking about? Sure, you may have been unhappy before, but whatever you are feeling right now is probably false and you should be wary of believing it.

If you read some of the other threads of waywards, you will see them, all of them, say that they can’t believe the things they said while under the influence of the affair. And they can’t believe their spouse waited patiently for them to come out of the fog and think straight again. And EVERY one of them said that, at the time, they were completely convinced that they were thinking straight, just like you say you are now. You’re saying you really know you’re not in love; but if you listen to all the people who’ve been through what you’re going through, they tell you that, no, you really AREN’T thinking straight right now.

So DON’T TRUST your thinking right now. Not until you’ve been away from OM for a good 3-6 months, at the very least.

Medc says that because it is YOU who is being the hurtful parent, not your H. It is YOU who is willing to walk away and tear up your child’s life for your own selfish feelings. So tell me, which parent looks like the better parent? And I think that if you think just because you're the mother you're going to get to keep your child, you are mistaken. I can pretty much guarantee that, after your record of mistakes, any judge is going to think long and hard before he lets your son even visit you, let alone live with you. So if you're going about all this thinking that you're going to start a wonderful new life with you and your son...you might as well just start thinking about your wonderful new life - BY YOURSELF.

And tell me what it is that we have spent 24 pages telling you? Do you even know? Are you even listening? What we have ALL told you is to stop being selfish. Stop putting your own needs ahead of your husband’s and your child’s for now, since you have to make up for the devastation you have caused. This is your one chance in your life to make up for your mistakes, and you sit there arguing that you don’t want to do it! That is what we are telling you, you just don’t want to see it.

Rain, what was your childhood like? I’m sure your penchant for running away from your responsibility comes from that, so maybe if you explain it, we can show you why you want to run away and why you want to self-destruct and believe you’re worthless and need to continue to be lifted up to feel worthy.

Finally, is your mother alive? Does she know about all this? What does she say?

I get so frustrated reading this thread.

I want so badly to reach Rain. But I feel like I am fighting for her attention with a hundred people all trying to educate her and pushing her to just TRY making her husband happy.

SHE IS SOOOOO NOT THERE. And that is not the way to reach her.

Even the thought of going back to the marriage and faking the effort leaves her feeling flat and lifeless. Its horribly depressing -- no matter how great of a guy her husband is.

All of you have no idea how depressing those suggestions are.
She feels right now like she is halfway out the door on this marriage. Everyone wants to push her back in -- and then if she decides she doesn't want to be in, she has to fight her way back out again.

Lexxy,

There are consequences for Rain that she can't/won't acknowledge if she walks out that door. The pain she doesn't know is worse than the pain she's in.

She's so not there - you're right. But if there is ANY good in Rain at all, she's going to see that with her track record with money there's no court in the world that's going to award her child support and custody/responsibility for the care of that child.

I believe Dude should Plan B her, keeping the child with him and she can go find herself, without the burden and responsibility for the child that she can't handle right now. If she insists that the child stay with her, she's like the recently pregnant 17 yr old that hasn't a clue what it takes to be financially and emotionally responsible for that child - everything here for her depends on HER happiness - and that will make it alright for the child - yeah right! NOT!

And my frustration comes from coddling posts like these. If you want the floor all to yourself, I suggest asking for her phone number or email address.

Lexxy, you're right of course. We can't make her see anything. But she says she's been listening and learning so I have to believe that it's possible she may find something here that hasn't occurred to her yet. You never know which post is going to strike a chord with someone, that one eureka moment that suddenly makes it all clear.

I really think that rain has never dealt with these issues before, that she learned it in FOO, and she really knows nothing but self-destruction. So I want to think that coming here just may be the turning point that shows her the piece of her life she's been missing.

Sure, we can't make her love her husband. But we can show her where the integrity comes from, and hope that she'll see it, and like it, and pick it up and try it on.

This is a CHOICE, rain. You can choose to be unhappy and bitter or you can choose for it to be different. If you want it to be different, take action to make it so.

Sitting and waiting for this to fix itself will not do it.

It is so easy to sink into old habits when you don't have clear direction on what you should do to change and improve.

Get that direction. You NEED to do differently this time no matter what you decide to do in the end.


You can't make good rational decisions when you can't think and are scared. Get help - find a plan to follow so that you CAN think clearly and so that being scared does not paralyze you.

I was thinking about you this morning and my own situation. My WH has become someone I don't even recognize and neither do his children. The man we knew is dead and in his place is a WH. Because the man we knew was dead, there was much grieving to do, confusion for my children and I. Honestly, it was a death, rain.

Do not kill the woman that you were to your husband and your son. The choice is yours alone. There is no middle ground. Either the WW in you will go to OM and kill Dude's wife or Dude's wife will win the battle and live to be the mother and wife you meant to be.

I have to agree with the others when they say if you leave that you should give all custody of your son to your husband, with visitation for you. You are not a fit mother in this state of mind.

If you don't, you are stealing your son from his father. Both will resent you for that. Don't make Dude and your son pay for your choices. Your husband shouldn't have to be a part time dad because of what you choose to do.

Put yourself in his shoes.....and then think about what your rights should be.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Withdraw from OM - absolutely NO CONTACT at all. Those feeings WILL dissipate and you will be able to think clearly.

This is why you MUST change what you have done in the past.

Openness and Honesty is ESSENTIAL for BOTH of you. He needs a plan, just like you do.


This is why you need a plan to do it differently. Habits are habits for a reason and we all have our share of bad habits. It takes work to get rid of those and do something new. Without doing that you will continue the pattern. That hasn't worked for you so far.

It CAN be different - and it already IS different. You have taken the steps to get here and to start to work through it. It's a start - don't give up yet. Give it a chance.

Have you read His Needs, Her Needs? When I read that book, it was like a light bulb went off in my head. Seriously. I wished I had found it BEFORE all this happened in my life. The concepts are so easy and sometimes you want to say "well, duh!" but then you realize while you are saying "duh", it's something you weren't doing and should have been.

You are already doing BETTER this time.

Please read Just Learning's post above over and over. Those are wise words.


Okay, I have to ask. At first I thought I knew the answer but maybe I'm wrong.

Are you willing, rain?

Do you want to hear what we have to say?

Are you willing to USE the advice you are given?

If you don't understand the advice, or disagree, post about it. The discussion can continue until you FULLY understand why we believe something is important. You still have the right to disagree - but at least you can disagree being fully informed.

Here's a suggestion I just thought of: if you can't afford to call the Harley's directly for counseling - call the radio show or send a letter/email.

Here's another thought I had regarding my situation that relates to you.

My WH told me the same things you are saying about your son. He will be happy when you are happy, you are a good mother, all those self-delusional things.

My daughters were 11 and 12 when this trauma happened to them. They have spent time with WH.

One of them chooses not to see him anymore. At all. She feels abandoned and unimportant. He chose someone else over her.

My younger daughter will be close behind. She is fighting hard to love him because she thinks she should. His choices have hurt her, too, and I don't know how much she will continue to make the effort for him.

We are two years away from d-day. There is still pain for all of us. The children most of all.

My WH once got REALLY angry when I was talking about the children and this mess. "Don't use my daughters against me!"

That was not my intent with him and it is not my intent with you.

Obviously, he didn't care about me and how hurt I was. I was hoping that he cared enough for his daughters to care how hurt they would be. It isn't "using" to state the truth.

My son looked his mom in the face and told her "you made me feel like garbage." Now, she would make it to all of his soccer games...cook him meals...help with schoool work... But at the end of the day...because of what she did to me and to him, he barely sees her now.

WS just don't get it.

And this is just what he was able to say to her. Think of all the stuff going on in his head and heart that he didn't know how to verbalize or didn't feel safe doing so.

These kids pay the highest price of all.

rain, my daughter wrote a note to her dad, I will see if I can find it in my thread. It may give you an idea of what your own son could be thinking and feeling.

Darn it, the link to my old thread won't work.

The gist of it was that my daughter took some of the blame for the break up on herself, as kids are prone to do.

She said "what could I have done to make you stay", "when I see old people still together I wonder why that can't be you and mom. Because of YOU, that's why. You threw it all away after seeing HER for two weeks", "I am so angry for what you have done but I still love you, but I don't think I should because you hurt us."

It was confusion, pain, and anguish.

It is so very important. Please get it.

Phew...that took some work to find, but here is the letter.


DD has given permission to use this letter on this site in hopes of helping other parents understand what their children may be going through.

Well of course she's "not there" Lexxxy, I've never known an active wayward that was, have you?

And you are wrong, *I* DO know how "depressing those suggestions are"...but I also know something else Lexxxy, I know the end result of following those suggestions, and doing right by your marriage and family...That is MY LIFE...I know it very well...I feel very qualified to advise Rain that choosing to do what is right leads to happiness (for all involved in fact)...

She will continue to not be "there" as long as OM is waiting in the wings for her...I see there has been some debate on 72Dude's thread regarding the usefulness of an NC letter when the WS isn't really sincere about it...I disagree with that...I am a FIRM believer that FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS, and I believe that Rain writing that letter would go a long way towards getting her feelings moving in the right direction...Not to mention, the benefit of slamming the door on OM AND the obvious benefit to 72Dude's position here...

She will also continue to not be "there" as long as she sits around lamenting about how very unhappy that she is, instead of CHOOSING TO BLOOM WHERE SHE IS PLANTED...

She MUST get that it doesn't matter one whit if she changes ALL the scenery around her, including all the players, EXCEPT for her...That her situation will continue to end up in the VERY SAME PLACE of "unhappiness" and "unfulfillment", unless and until she changes HER perspective...She MUST see that SHE is the problem here!!!

What others are trying desperately to tell her is that HAPPINESS COMES FROM DOING GOOD! From doing the RIGHT thing...Which, of course, is standing by the vows and commitment that she made to her husband...being the kind of mother that cares enough about her child to do what is BEST for him...One who does the RIGHT thing, even when it's hard...ESPECIALLY when it's hard...

Mrs. W

ETA: I have NEVER once regretted doing the RIGHT thing...No one ever does ya know...

Seems I should bump the "Affair Based Marriage" thread up for Rain to read. Give her a glimpse of where she's headed. A look into her future. Some folks just need to learn the HARD way.

Jo

Oh.My.God.

wildhorses, thank you (and DD) for posting this, but WOW did it bring back memories! I was 12 when my dad left so he could go screw "as many women as he wanted". The first thing he did when he moved out was to get a vasectomy. The first thing I thought when he told me that (yes, he told his 12 year old daughter) was "Wow, am I that big of a mistake that you want to make sure you don't make another one like me?"

Our house fell apart cos my mom couldn't afford to fix anything, and he was too busy out meeting women to visit very often; even if he had, he wouldn't have fixed anything for us. Our air conditioner leaked and fell through the ceiling into the first floor, and it stayed there for months while my mom scraped up the money to get it fixed. My dad would come pick me up for my weekly (usually monthly) visit, see the AC on the floor in the middle of the living room and not say a word.

One time a kid came to the door and asked if we wanted him to mow our yard, cos the neighbors were starting to get upset with us (our mower had broken months earlier and we couldn't afford to fix it). I was humiliated, said no. Went outside with those little scissor-like clippers and 'mowed' the whole yard by hand with the clippers.

He was so cheap our visits consisted of us sitting in the food court at the mall with a coke, and watching people walk by. And when it wasn't that, it was him taking me with him while he went to see this week's woman, and having me watch her kids while they went in the back room to screw.

He said he couldn't afford anything else because he was having to put out all this money to support us and also pay for his own apartment. His child support was $100 a month. So even that was my fault.

And despite all this, in fact the more of it I endured, the more I wanted to please him to try to get him to care. I told myself I should be grateful he even comes to visit. (I think he told me that a few times, too).

Sorry if TMI, but I wanted to show that you can't foresee how something's going to turn out. My dad never expected to be hated for doing what he 'had to do.' He never expected to become a selfish jerk, but he did. When he left, all he could see was the chance for a 'new, better' life than the one he was stuck with; never expected the devastation he caused.

So rain, if you think your son is going to be all right, you are deluding yourself, but more importantly, you are HARMING your son with your selfishness. When will you stop being selfish?

This is what I fear for my youngest daughter. That she will continue to try to please him - and will feel like a failure when she cannot.


Oh my goodness, cat. That just makes me want to cry.

cat, thank you for sharing that. The way your father betrayed not only your mother, but you and the other children too, is heart-breaking. I forget, what is your relationship with him like now?

From Mrs.W:

Something to think about. You could always choose D later, after giving it a shot now. You can't necessarily do it the other way around.