For those following my other thread:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...oard=35&fpart=all&gonew=1#UNREAD

I will be visiting my wife this weekend. I am going down there, with a clear head (I feel so anyway).

I want to try and reconcile my marriage. She has gone wayward, and I have exposed her relationship with her OM.

She has blown up on me, understandably...

However, I know she is still in contact with OM. She called him last night and they talked for about 30 minutes.

I am going to go down there and Plan A her this weekend. I am going to try and show her how things SHOULD be between us. I realize that we need to talk about our relationship, but it needs to be positive.

I want her to know that I need to meet her emotional needs. I want to find out exactly how I can meet her emotional needs. I want to figure out a plan that we can get back together, so we can start fixing our marriage.

I believe that her biggest concern is that I no longer meet her emotional needs. She doesn't meet many of mine, but I realize the focus needs to be about HER ENs this weekend. I will be able to live without mine being met. I am willing to show her that I can and will meet her needs. I have been trying since she left, and have been taking better care of myself. She is realizing this and is seeing some change. But, I need to do more.

Now, what is the best way to tell her that I don't want her to contact OM anymore? Should I give her a Plan B letter on my way out the door, when leaving, and go dark? I may consider Plan B for a while depending on how the weekend goes. But, it won't be for more than a couple months. I realize ultimatums are LBs... So, what is the best way to negotiate this into a Joint Agreement without love busting?

I feel that she is still talking to OM, and they will probably get together sooner or later and start a PA. I am not OK with this, and I will not stand for it. Any PA, and I will file for divorce. However, I will never know about it... She still stresses that the relationship is platonic, and she does not see it as an affair of any kind. Of course, I feel so much differently.

Should I tell her that unless I have access to her e-mail/phone records, until I move down there, that I will file for divorce? She likely will not accept these demands. Fine with me, but I just absolutely cannot handle a PA after all of this.

Help me to devise a plan.

I plan to wine her, dine her, tell her how beautiful she is, enjoy our time together, etc. I will remain calm. If she explodes on me for any reason, I will stay calm.

Other things we need to talk about...

Getting together again - living together. She does not want to live together, but she realizes that we need to be together to get things to work. I want to make her realize that we need to live together to make things work. I also need her to realize that OM needs to be out of the picture before we can heal.

We need counseling, bad. As soon as we are back together, we need weekly counseling. We need couples counseling, and we both need individual counseling. She does not feel that she needs individual counseling, and she says the most important thing is that I need individual counseling (even before couples counseling).

We need to start depositing into each other's love banks, and quit our bad habits and love busting. I will try to make her realize that I know what habits I have that she does not like. I will stress how I am working on changing my habits. I will tell her what things I do that bust our love for each other.

I do not believe that she wants a divorce... That's why she is seeing me this weekend. I have given her the option numerous times to not see me. She feels "imposed" upon for my visit. But, I have stressed that if she feels imposed, she's more than welcome not to see me.

What else can/should I do?

I need to work out, and clear my head some more... But, I will be reading any suggestions when I get back...

As far as other plans this weekend. If I know of OM to even step foot into her house, I am on the first plane to AZ, and I am filing for divorce as soon as I get back to Michigan. Him being in her house, is just the same as physical contact to me. I do not believe that he will be there as she has recommended that we use his tickets to go to a concert this weekend.

We had a very cordial and friendly telephone conversation this afternoon. Things seem to be going well for now. We will see how the weekend plays out.

Have you checked the seating on the flight again? What will you do if he's on it?

Charlotte

I am going to try to get a seat further in front of the plane...

The seating chart says the seat is occupied... Don't know if he's sitting there, impossible to tell...

I will not confront him at the airport, or on the plane.

I think, in your situation a Plan B letter at the end of the weekend or shortly thereafter IF she won't end her affair, er "friendship" but is receptive to your Plan A, spends time with you and you seem to make SOME progress communicating your changes and setting out the possibilities upon reconciliation (Plan A). The only reason to delay SHORTLY would be to appear non-reactionary and sincere in the conversations you had this weekend. Plan B APPEARS to a WW as punishment. Tough to appear punishing, then go dark. She'll do something that prompt your Plan B letter soon enough. Then you go dark and see if that stirs her up...while you have peace and quiet to start your own individual recovery and make your own, non-reactive decision about your life.

I think that's a better idea than an ultimatum with a threat of an immediate divorce filing. You'll likely KNOW if you have to go that route and it won't require an ultimatum...you'll just know.

You can let her know that if she even meets up with OM and you get any sense that it's gone physical that you will be done...period. You don't have to PROVE it.

OK...here is my Plan A "do's and don'ts" list that I'm copying from Longhorn's pinned JFO thread "For Newly Betrayed Spouses". Maybe this will help for this weekend:

Well, today I thought I'd add my "Do's and Don'ts of Plan A List". This list I carried around with me from early into my wife's affair and then well into recovery. I referred to it from time to time to keep myself grounded in how I wanted to behave. A big part of Plan A is being the best person, spouse and parent (if applicable) that you can be despite the circumstances around you. My basic premise that enabled me to survive day to day was "Act, Don't React" (i.e. - "ACT" like the person I wanted to be without any love busters and do not allow myself to simply "React" to the harshness of the reality I foung myself in at the moment). Using this basic premise, I was able to weather the roller coaster of infidelity and eventually restore my marriage.

There are many emotional strains on the wayward spouse but their primary problem/issue is the OP (Other Person). If "No Contact" has not yet been established they will behave with a single minded intention to get their "fix" of the OP. If you threaten their ability to obtain such fix depending on the length of time between fixes, the quality of the recent fix and the security of such fix you will be met with resistance in varying degrees. No doubt about it, your efforts WILL be resisted but how they do it is a crap-shoot. They may yell, threaten or otherwise blatantly attempt to manipulate you with fear, anger, intimidation or whatever OR be more caniving and attempt to appease you with lies, more deceipt and covert manipulation. Either way they are not really LISTENING to you...you are their secondary concern. Understanding that is essential.

Conversly, the things you do that do not interfere with their addiction will be strongly encouraged and reinforced or perhaps simply ignored. Again, it's manipulation. They will be nice to you, have sex with you, spend time with you IF you allow them to continue having their affair...unabated. The policy of appeasement does not work. You can't simply be a doormat no matter how comfortable your wayward MAY attempt to make you feel.

So in the end you are left feeling powerless and beat up. Which in all essence you are. It's THEIR addiction you have little influence over. Only the addict can decide for themselves when to releive themselves of their addiction. They will do so IF YOU behave according to the solid, well tested, professionally advised Marrigage Builders principles. You, of course, must practice both the "CARROT AND THE STICK of Plan A (see link in my signature line below) to attempt to bust up the affair. But much of the STICK does not involve your day to day interactions with your "FOGGED OUT" wayward spouse. My do's and don't list is how you manage your spouse while you do the rest of Plan A.

Some days your spouse will be kind to you and other days hostile. As you ATTEMPT to pull closer to them and reestablish intimacy they will no doubt respond by pulling away for fear of you interrupting their affair OR, if the affair is over, for fear of leading you on. If you pull away from them the Waywards may often pull you closer for fear of losing you, for fear of losing their options as they cake eat/ride the fence of indecision. However, if you pull away to hard you may run a huge risk that you will merely reinforce and legitimize their built up rationalizations and justifications. It's simply the roller coaster of infidelity and the more you recognize it for what it is the more POWER you have to control YOURSELF as you both progress through this mess.

The wayward emotional pull back is to be EXPECTED. Waywards almost always do this. They take a step towards you and you respond appreciatively...you acquire Hope and push for more, more, more. You hunger for HOPE and they fear it. WS's don't feel worthy of it and are holding on to so much of the rationalizations and justifications that they can't see straight YET...even if they HAVE recommitted to the relationship and gone to "NO CONTACT". They fear hurting you further, hurting their family further. They fear you are placing much more significance on each step forward than you should cause they legitimately and quite necessarily DON'T FEEL IT...YET. So they slap you down and retreat. They may even defend/insulate themselves from you by calling you NEEDY AND UNATTRACTIVE to get you to back off. Hence, the step backwards.

When you detach from the rollercoaster and allow him/her to proceed at his/her desired speed you can hopefully minimize the steps back. When YOU internalize and beleive yourself to be the obvious choice, acquire patience and the confidence that he/she would be a fool not to recomitt to you, then you become the confident, unpressing, spouse that swept them off their feet so many years ago. He/she can more easily recommit to the person they saw back at the beginnig of your relationship than they can to the devastated spouse they see before them now.

You are behooved to for the most part just let it go for now, OP's soon to be or IS out of the picture...this is just you and your spouse now. Try to date them (alone time without KIDS is KEY...family time is NOT as effective). Movie dates suck cause you can't talk but those are the kind of dates you want now. Consider loud restaurants, clubs and bars. Activity based dates where you are not seated facing each other forced to have that “serious talk”. But if they won't date you go out yourself and either have fun or feign fun. They will eventually get suspicious or feel the need to take a break themselves and hopefully follow along.

In conclusion, you only control you. The more you understand the dynamics of infidelity the more prepared you will be to anticipate it and combat it. Your spouse, as expected is behaving like an idiot right now and "idiocy" will likely be the forecast for some time. YOU must be the leader of your family and the leader of your marriage and despite the crap you are putting up with BE the best person you can be....simply, ACT, DON'T REACT.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

OK...the list of Do's and Don'ts.

Do's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

*sorry the above is a little choppy...I combined several similiar posts to compile this one.

No expectations.

Go with your Plan B letter in your back pocket just in case things go REALLY REALLY bad. Otherwise, Plan A and follow the fabulous advice Mr. W just gave you.

Oh yeah,

When you are actually WITH her you may be able to play the bluff that you obtained ALL their text messages from Verizon and thus, the cat is out of the bag.

Overcoming the wall of denial ("he's just a friend" & "I've done nothing wrong") crap is often essential to getting down to business with all the chips ACTUALLY on the table instead of dealing with all the gaslighting and manipulation (i.e. - LIES).

Mr. Wondering

Good deal.

Really???

Don't suggest counseling?

It has been suggested... That I go.

Can I go, then say, my counselor suggests that we both come to counseling?

No expectations

Yep, underline it and circle it three times.

I'd say it's OK to mention it as something the both of you should do as part of a recovery but likely don't push for individual counseling for her yet...since you have and she's not receptive.

Don't HARP on counseling as it's worthless until she goes no contact or you two are living in the same state.


You see...WW's are in "i'm cool" mode. They are completely selfish and all they hear is blah, blah, blah...and all they think is "he's soooooo annoying, demanding and NEEDY".

Unless she's receptive to it...you WILL NOT be having relationship talk all weekend. WW's just don't do that...they are disconnected from reality and wish to STAY there in fantasy land. "Relationship" talk is just too real and serious for them and if you push for it too much it just plays into their rationalizations and justifications. You've got a good STRONG game going. You've stood up for yourself well thus far and given her some great reverse babble. More of that without getting too cocky is the order of the day. Let her see what she will be missing.

Consider this...2 years from now, no matter the outcome...how do YOU want to look back at your actions this weekend. Don't be afraid of conflict...reasonable CALM conflict...but be a fun loving great guy too. You are HER loss.

Hope that helps. It's such a speculative situation. I have no idea what you are walking into but feel you'll have many answers come monday. Be smart. Stay calm. There's really nothing to get mad about. Your wife wasn't a great wife before. Your marriage was unsatisfying at best. You MAY recover and through recovery rebuild (or build for the first time like my wife and I) an MB marriage of extraordinary care. It's a long shot and you are doing her a favor offering it.

Hide your cash...maybe even get travelor's checks. You want bail money...just in case but you don't want her robbing you to support her affair. Also...be weary of her demanding to come to Michigan. She may want to hook up with OM HERE as an alternative to this weekend.

I'm rambling. You can call me at any time if you need situational advice.

Mr. Wondering

And vaya con Dios, my friend.

Charlotte

No relationship talk at all. Total Plan A and enjoyments - appreciate her - do all the emotional needs since you don't know for sure which ones touch her the most. Look good, smell good, feel good; appreciate her, laugh with her, etc. No demands at the end of it all - just a very powerful Plan B letter to give her with a single rose. And go dark. Very dark.

Let the Plan B letter state that she may not contact you for any reason, until OM is out of the picture. Follow the samples here on the web site and in the SAA book.

That may be, BH, but it shouldn't be yours.

The biggest "concern" is that she is willfully sinning against God and being disobedient to His commands to her.

Adultery is FORBIDDEN.

Her RELATIONSHIP with God IS, and should be, her "biggest concern," and it should be your biggest concern too in your love for her. THAT, before your marriage.

Get that one "wrong," and recovering your marriage will be the least of your concerns in the future.

God bless.

Mr W. - with all due respect, I strongly disagree with this "advice" as a "Don't" for any Wayward Spouse who claims to know the Lord Jesus Christ. For a sinning believer, this is a "must," not a "don't."

If God, and obedience to Him, is not #1 (and obviously for a Wayward Spouse it isn't at this time), then it is essential to "refocus" their "wayward thoughts" on just who it is they really are being "wayward" with.

For an unbeliever, I would agree with you for a variety of reasons, although discussing THEIR concept of morality would be appropriate and how their actions "fit" with their concept of "good moral behavior."


God bless.

Thanks for all the advice.

I will use what I can remember!

I won't stress religion and God upon her, but I will bring it up.

I asked her if she wanted to go to church on Sunday, and she said "no thanks". I was willing to change my flight to make it happen. Thought I had an earlier flight, but I leave first thing in AM on Sunday...

Okay...

Be safe, don't get sucked in2 fruitless arguments. Remember that you can always defuse an inflammatory si2ation by walking away - even say "I need a timeout" if you have 2.

best,
-ol' 2long

Why not change the flight and go to church anyway?

Invite her again, (she might change her mind) but if she doesn't, go by yourself.

Many will be praying for you this weekend.

Maybe this is somewhat different than others are saying in regards to relationship talk, but, being long distance it is what I would do before I boarded the plane to return home.

My ultimate goal would be to try and accomplish is to send the message that this experience has been a wake up call for you and is driving you to get what you want and deserve. That, for you, it is a turning point. You goal is to get a stake in the ground and a clear expression that you are taking action in moving in a new direction(an expression of your commitment to a new direction a commitment of what you want from a marriage and are determined to get). For her to understand how you see your marriage and what you want from marriage(an understanding of the past and a clear direction for the future where you will invest your time and energy).

I would explain your feelings on the current situation that whether she considers it an affair or not it is extremely hurtful and the opposite of what you envisioned when you traded marriage vows. It is a horrible experience and has made you really put effort in examining your marriage and defining what you really want and deserve from a marriage.

I would explain your view of your marriage - the past to now - the good and the bad. I would explain what you see as her view(from your point of view) of your marriage - the past to now. That you see the challenges and understand the opportunities.

I would explain what marriage means to you. What you want out of it what you envision it to be - your dreams - and that you are now passionately committed to get it and you will get it.

Your not threatening but you are upping the ante. You are expressing what you want from a marriage vs. what you have now and are doing it in such a way that it would be viewed as very reasonable by almost anyone, including her. Its not about her but about marriage and what you want out of it - your dreams. You are putting yourself out there. You are taking risks with no assurances from her - setting a tone on what you are going to get out of marriage in life.

That's really good advice...

And I think you've eloquently stated what I've been trying to do, and what I will try to do...

It's clear to me there are problems, as it is to her.

To me, this is a wake-up call...

I feel, somewhat, that this is her distress call.

However, I really feel that I have been lucky to intervene at the right time, accept the truth as it is (in all instances) and have been able to learn what to do about it.

Before this ever happened... I was on MB, looking for answers. I didn't look deep enough, because we got lulled back into our not-so-great marriage.

NOW, I've bought the books, and learning to apply what I've read. It's not easy, and it takes a lot of work. But, happiness doesn't come easy.

BTW, I noticed that last night, she didn't contact OM at all... I'm praying it stays that way...