ears wrote this to my friend on the EN board about a non-infidelity issue, but it really hit home for me. I believe it may come from Alanon. I attend my first CODA meeting on Saturday and start my own 12-step program. I could have used this as a mental note this past weekend.

I chose the user name back in '02 onlyUcan because I used to think "only u can serve me this way", meaning that all the lessons that I was learning from my new H at the time would make me stronger. Now it has another meaning in that "only I can" do this for myself.

I was posting on MB during 02 and 03 and then seemed to be doing well (OW finally gone). Came back in 04 with some incidents and then it seemed once a year 05, 06, 07 and now 08. Although the internet EA's from the beginning of the M were finally gone, it seemed that my WH had a porn addiction as well. It wasn't as severe as some that I have read about here and dwindled as well over the years. However, there were still PPV and cable (soft porn) and some internet sites here and there and I was not comfortable with that, especially because he lied about it quite often.

And he continued to talk with OW and have mini EA's via telephone and text, usually lasting no longer than a month before I would find evidence and "catch" him. One each year and then we would go a long time with nothing, I would then get laxed on the follow up of checking his cell phone for new numbers, etc. and suddenly I would have a "gut feeling" that it was time to check and sure enough, I would find something.

I have always been one to contact the OW myself and make it very clear that she was conversing with a M man. He would do the NC routine of a text message or email stating that what he did was wrong, loved his wife and family, could never talk to OW again, don't contact him, etc. Most often, he would change his phone number, but he was never in it long enough to make enough of a connection (04 - 06) for any of the OW to attempt to save something that really wasn't there, they just moved on.

Then came the Retarted, Wrinkly, old enough to be his mother OW that latched on to him in 07 and is now back in 08. In 07 when I answered his phone when she called and asked her who she was, she claimed that she was just a friend of my WH. She had left a message a few minutes earlier that I had listened to that was whining...."come on, why won't you talk to me?...don't be mad about what those guys said..blah, blah, blah? This OW worked at a grocery store that my WH and his male friends from work frequented each morning before going to the field for work. They teased him that he was screwing her because she was so nice to him and would give him free stuff (learned about that recently). He immediately admitted that it was crossing a boundary, called her in front of me and told her to never call him again and he changed his phone number. She had since quit the store.

That brings us to this year, 08. As I posted in May, he ran into her at his physical therapy appt. in April and I was not checking any phone records anymore and had that same "gut feeling" and listened to another VM on his phone. I've had access to his phone pw, email pw, cell phone records online for years now. And sure enough, another message from this same Retarded sounding OW. It said,.."just thinking about you and wondering how you are doing?, blah, blah, blah". So I checked the phone and text records and they had been at it for a month.

Of course without asking, he sent a NC text that he copied me on with the same old message, I was wrong, shouldn't have done this, I value my marriage, my wife doesn't deserve this, etc. She texted back a few times and I said my peace to her again about getting involved once again with a M man. She now changes her story that it has been an ongoing 3 year A and that they have had sex. Although there are lots of inconsistencies in both of their stories, my gut tells me that the sex part is not true. I'm open to being wrong about that, but I cannot find any contact with her since the early 07 texts and phone calls I mentioned before. She also claims this time around that she can't believe how stupid she was to fall in love with him. Barf!

Personal sidebar for a moment:
So I come back again to MB where I have found so many supporters (too many 2 list, some of which will be my lifetime mentors), even ML who called me out last year about being a VOLUNTEER vs. a VICTIM in all this because I continue to CHOOSE to stay. I get that. And then this year when she asked me where I've been and why don't I get a shovel and start doing some of the heavy lifting when I was complaining about posters being asked to stay to one thread (realized later that wasn't even my issue - see next paragraph). I get that too, so I went to work over the last few months and posted as much help as I felt I could, became invested in these people's lives and then realized some of the reason why I don't stay on the MB board when I think my marriage is working, it's depressing and sad because of the heartache and often times it triggers me when I normally wouldn't be triggered. So I've left when I felt that I have completed what was healthy for me and felt that my M was In Recovery. Hope that makes sense.

Then I realized I was identifying with posters that I felt like were being bullied or forced to comply with an invisible set of rules. Only to process that and realize it's a mirror of what I feel about myself. Jumping in to save my perception of the underdog (do that IRL too) only to realize that I'm not even saving myself. So I'm processing how that is not working for me and may be more of a conflict avoidance of my own issues.

I think at times, I have seen my WH as the underdog and I have felt sorry for him. He tried to commit suicide this last time around (in May). When I had first discovered the new contact with the Retarded OW, I was calm and had intended to move on. There were no DJ or AO on my part, probably because I was still numb. I had exposed him this time around, hadn't done that in the past. He was experiencing consequences that he had never experienced before. He spiraled himself, had called to be checked into the mental hospital and when they didn't have a bed, he took enough pills that he would have died had he not be a strong, in shape healthy male.

I have read Dr. Harley's books and I know the MB principles. I still struggle personally with DJ and AO, most often when I feel that my WH is using dishonesty to punish me. It makes me feel like I am literally being strangled and fighting for my life. I'm the kind of person that "needs" information.

WH claims that he has these EA's to fulfill an EN that I am not giving him, which is Conversation. It's not that we don't talk, but when we first met, I listened to him talk for hours and hours and enjoyed it. Now that we are M, I am guilty of wanting him to "get to the point", checking out and not listening. Since we redid the EN questionnaire, I have worked HARD at the EN part. Haven't done quite so well at eliminating LB though.

WH struggles with O&H. Guess what? That's my #1 need and my #1 LB is Dishonesty, go figure. So my lovebank has been DEPLETED very quickly over the years with these continued incidents. He is also dishonest about money and his occasional porn. I can understand relapses and slips and I'm willing to support those, but the lies are like poison to me.

Satan knows my weak points and I choose to allow my ego to take over and the picture show to play in my head and the conversations to occur in my head that cause me to be in pain. I know better, I just get weak sometimes.

This weekend, I was having a meltdown. He lied about receiving his disability check (hurt his back and it's taking a really long time for the money to fully come in), had a lame excuse (DJ) about watching some inappropriate You Tube videos and I worked myself up into a meltdown and suddenly realized that his parents were involved in the "original sin", so to speak by conversating with the 1st OW. It really wasn't their fault because technically, he had met her before me (she lived in another country) and she thought she was going to eventually marry him. He's very protective of comments about his parents. I was not disrespectful about his parents, I just shared that I was thoroughly hurt that no one acknowledged me in all this.

Old pain, old drama, really didn't need to go there, but I was
spiraling and I told him that I was going to file for divorce on Monday and that I had put my name on a waiting list for an apt. for me and the kids to move out. He was livid...about the fight, about the comments, about it all.

This all occurred via text message because I left the house to cool off and went to the book store. Sat in there for several hours while texting. Trust me, it could have been much worse if I stayed home and confronted him in person about it.

When I did get home, he came to the bedroom and told me to quit texting him and he was sick of talking about it, blah, blah, blah. I prepared for bed, had taken a Xanax to try to stop my spiral anyway and as I was drifting off to sleep, heard his truck leave, assumed he was getting something to eat, even though it was late.

HE DROVE TO OW'S HOUSE. He claims he looked up her name in the phone book once he got to her town (same town he works in, 20 minutes from our house) to find her address. He claims that he left with the intention of telling her he was moving in with her since I said it was over. Yes, that was one of the DJ/AO comments that I had made earlier about moving in with his GF.

Said that when he got there, he just ended up talking to her about me. The text messages that she sent him on Monday (that I discovered Wed and how I learned of this incident), and the subsequent answers I received from her when I asked her what occurred have confirmed to the best of my knowledge that he talked about me and she said she hates him, we are crazy, etc.

That doesn't change the fact that NC was broken. He admitted to his intentions of going, even though they changed once he got there, and feels like because he was honest about telling me that he went and how his intentions started out that he should have a free ticket of "let's work this out". He had made a comment to me Monday morning about wanting to "lay it all down", like laying down the weapons of lying. But I didn't know about the texts and the Sunday night visit until Wednesday when I checked the phone bill.

Needless to say, I was completely shocked and hurt. We had talked on Monday and had agreed to working through the Falling In Love, Staying In Love book and I had ordered it that day. We had 2 1/2 enjoyable days until I came across the information, including SF on Monday and purposeful UA time. I feel like a loser having SF with my WH when he had just broken contact on Sunday night.

I had explained to him that I feel like I have PTSD with all of the incidents that have occurred over the 6 1/2 years. I also explained that the "issues" with his parents had been pushed down and I had avoided discussing the pain around that out of respect for them. But when I processed it, I realized that back then, they weren't respecting me. Nowadays is a different story, they think I walk on water and I'm the best thing that happened to their son.

I never dreamed that he would make a CHOICE to retaliate against me the way that he did. He's upset now because he feels like telling the truth did not get him anything more than a lie would have because I have stated that it might be the best choice for us to seperate and he work out a personal recovery plan for his addictions and anger issues, etc. before returning. I told him that obviously we are not able to deal with this conflict in a productive way and if it results in a retaliation contact, I do not feel safe with him.

Personally, I know that I need to turn to God and strengthen my R with my Savior. I know that without Him and His promise, I cannot make it through this. I feel that perhaps the "only u can serve me this way" will die in vain if I do not open myself up to the lessons that God has intended for me in this last 6 years, specifically now.

I have learned alot returning to MB again and I thank all of you for contributing to that growth and knowledge.

I believe that I have stood in the way of our R by trying to fix things myself and thinking that I could make it all better, sometimes by just allowing it to be swept under the carpet. I have struggled with enforcing consequences for boundaries, I have that same issue with my children.

Should I be in Plan B, have I completely screwed up Plan A the whole time with my DJ and AO during the situation or would I be better off going straight to Plan D?

I have a long personal recovery process ahead of me.

Thank you for taking the time to read my current status.

OUC

oUc - in my opinon, the answer to your question is "no."


I have other things I'd like to say, but I will refrain from doing so because of fundamental differences in beliefs and I do not want to add to your current stress level. You ask your questions, and I'll try to answer them as best I can, if you think that would help you.


So suffice it to say for now, "separation" is not the answer. "Plan D" is not THE answer, though it certainly is your right if you choose that path.


I will venture an evaluation, however. Based upon what you have written and your husband's repeated "seeking OUTSIDE the marriage," I don't think your husband is a "born again" believer in the Second Person of the Triune Godhead. It is obvious, at a bare minimum, that he does NOT believe in what Jesus said: "IF YOU LOVE ME, OBEY my commands."

As the Creator of the world, as God the Son, Jesus spoke of ALL of His commands as part of the Trinity. Your husband obviously does not believe this nor does he believe that Jesus SHOULD be obeyed, regardless of his "feelings" or regardless of what anyone else might say that is in opposition to what the Bible says as the revealed Word of God.

So the question remains for you...what will YOU do?


Having lived through over 5 years of "contacts" myself before finally reaching "recovered," I understand the types of thoughts that are likely running through your mind. Having gotten to the point, several times during my own recovery, of thinking perhaps the "best course of action" would simply be to "throw in the towel" and get a divorce, I am sorry for the pain, hurt, and sense of "hopelessness" and "futilty" that you are likely feeling right now.

There IS hope. It is NOT hopeless. But it DOES require surrender by you and surrender by your husband.

The "question" remains: "Surrendered to WHO?"


God bless.

Plan D seems like the smarter choice right now...too many affairs...too much time.

Plan B is obviously an option and even if you decide to go "D", I would wholeheartedly suggest going to B NOW.

You personal recovery right now is a lot more important than holding on to a serial cheater.

Good luck.

Only,
Your kind words and thoughts have been a tremendous support over the last few months. It pains me that you are suffering as you are. What does your gut tell you to do? Is this a man worth saving? If you love him, it's plan B and you do your best to make it work. There is obvious anger on his part and he acts out towards you. I have no revelation to offer except prayers and a cyber hug...thinking of you today and tomorrow...and the next ...

I agree with MEDC. Plan B. It is part of Harley's plans for a REASON.

AT this point, IMHO, you are enabling this behavior; you are part of the sickness. You cannot save your WH from himself. You can work on yourself. It sounds like you have just been cleaning up messes left and right, as if he's your child or you are his keeper. Meanwhile, what has this done to you?

I'm not familiar with and can't relate to your situation, OnlyU, because your WH seems to be a serial cheater. I don't buy that it has as much to do about EMOTIONAL NEEDS as much as it being MORE of a CHARACTER ISSUE. Others know more about this but I would think that this takes a different approach than with the GARDEN VARIETY WAYWARD.

FH,
Honestly, I have not read any of your posts that I disagree with, fundamentally or otherwise. You are one that I consider a mentor and I would appreciate the straight shots from your position in Christlike Love At All Times. I think you know me best, along with a few others.

Also, the Surrender needs to be to Christ - for BOTH of us! I realize that I have allowed this situation to take all of energy and I have neglected my true duties as a Christian and many times as a Mother and Wife. No matter what I do, I plan to be on that personal Recovery - NO MATTER WHAT! I'm not going to betray myself or Christ any longer.

I completely concur that my WH has displayed any signs of a believer. And although he was raised Christian, I know that there is a difference between Believing "IN" Christ, than BELIEVING CHRIST! He has alot of work to do as well, and I'm not going to do it for him or try to guide him in what to do, that's where I've been getting in the way and making it easy for him.

So..if not seperation, how truly do we RECOVER? He has agreed to put a personal and M Recovery plan together and put it in writing. He has also agreed to a seperation if that is what I need, as long as I will agree to continue to work on the M.

When he wakes this morning, I'm going to ask him if he will join MB and post here for input.

Thank you - as usual!

MEDC & SL,

I do see that I have been enabling him. That's the reason I started IC again a few weeks ago and joined the CODA (Codependents Anon) group. I realize that I have to get control of that, no matter what direction I go in.

My head tells me that Plan B minimally is in order. My heart tells me that if he can create his own personal and M recovery plan without me controlling it, pushing him along, perhaps there is still a window open.

One thing that I will not compromise right now is my own personal Recovery plan though. I will be diligent about that and perhaps as that goes along and I get stronger, the path will become clearer.

Because as you asked "what has this done to me". I'm emotionally and physically sick from it all.

Thank you for taking the time to post.

fiori,
Thank you so much for the hug. I need it. I need support right now. I relate so much to what you have posted about your own feelings and struggles.


This is the part that scares me. I told him last night, do you realize that you acted out and made contact because of your anger about what I was saying about you acting out?? Makes no sense.

Sometimes I don't think he really gets it. I'm seeing such a deeper disturbed man than I realized.

I'm willing to keep my commitment to him and stand by him, but he has got to do the work, almost on his own for awhile. Does that make sense? I'm a mess right now.

Mimi,

It means alot to me that you took the time to post.

He has had alot of EA's, definitely labeling him as a serial cheater.

Not sure if I have made it worse by not giving him any consequences other than seeing my pain.

I have made his life with me something that he refuses to give up, I assume that means I have done a great Plan A, don't know.

He has deeper issues that I think he needs treatment for though, like an addict would. We'll see if he is willing to do that.

It's like being M to Jekyll and Hyde though because if you take away the addictions, he takes care of all the housework and cooking, loves to spend time with me, is always home, has good family commitment, plans trips together, goes shopping with me, treats me like a queen.

But then out comes Mr. Hyde....

onlyUcan, I think you already have the answer to your problem right there in the quote above. You cannot control your H, nor can you change him. His serial cheating has nothing to do with unmet emotional needs, but everything to do with who he is.

And who he is cannot be changed by you. My suggestion would be to accept him how he IS and decide accordingly. Can you live in a marriage where serial cheating is the NORM? Because that is how it will be. If you stay, you have to ACCEPT THIS. Like I told you before, you are a volunteer here, not a victim.

If you can't accept this, then you might want to consider your options, such as Plan B or divorce.

But the most important thing is ACCEPTANCE. You cannot change this man.

Now, he can change if he CHOOSES TO, but you cannot make him want to change and you cannot change him.

And I do appreciate your grabbing a shovel and digging in. I think if you are going to criticize the ditch diggers, you should grab a shovel yourself and get to work. I am glad you did.

Okay, then let's address some spiritual issues. There will be plenty of folks offering up help in various areas, so why don't you and I begin with the spiritual side.

What questions or specific areas would you like to "tackle" first, or what areas of doubt and uncertainty about being "born again" might you want to discuss?


Also, if it would help your husband, feel free to give him my email address if he'd like to "talk" more privately for a while rather than jump into the public forums of MB.

ML,
Ya..that was an interesting experience and enlightening for me to learn about what was really bothering me that actually had nothing to do with the thread that I created.

Anyway...

No, I'm not going to accept it. So a plan does have to be in place and I do need to keep moving forward. I know I deserve better than what I have allowed, created, settled for.


This will be key...I'm going to be standing back and watching because the one thing that has become CRYSTAL CLEAR to me since starting IC again and focusing on the Codependent Behaviors is that I have to stop standing in the way of other people's consequences.

Mercy cannot rob Justice, yet I have thought that I had the right to "cushion" the fall for my loved ones. Who am I to stand in God's way?

Thanks for posting, I do appreciate hearing your advice.

OUC, I'm so sorry to hear how things are, today. It takes a lot of bravery to listen to your gut, and to do what you need to do to get better. I don't think you need to make a stay or go decision today, but I understand how it feels like that, totally unbearable to think about going forward like this for even one more minute! What do you think about calling the Harleys?

((((OUC)))

FH,

Please email my address at the bottom because I do not see yours on here. I will give it to my H. I think he needs a strong mentor that will hold him accountable in Christ, however that works out. Hopefully that is something that he will choose. I know I have to get away from leaving the bread crumbs out for him to follow and making it easy for him.

Questions:
Is it my fault because of my weakness and my own inability to stay focused on the spiritual aspect that my M is failing? I'm not saying that I'm trying to fall on the sword here, but what's the reality of it? Am I equally not bringing the Spirit into our home because of harboring ill feelings towards him?

I know that the Mother has a role, I believe in it wholeheartedly, yet in many ways, our roles are reversed because I am the primary breadwinner. He does not complain about me working, he likes the money because he likes material things. And he takes care of the house and cooking. Right now he is out on a back injury, but prior to that he worked a rigorous full time job and still did it all and that has created some resentment. Do you think that by me working I have altered God's plan for us?

What kinds of things should we be doing as a couple, other than regular church attendance, family and couple prayer and scripture study to cultivate this environment that we so desperately need? Btw...when we fall short in the areas above, it is a noticeable difference.

How can I seperate his behavior and actions with the Man that I know he is and can be?

ears,

Thank you!!

Last night (early morning) when I couldn't sleep and was posting, I actually looked into the counseling center.

When his money comes in from the disability (should be in a few weeks), I think that is a feasible idea.

How many sessions are recommended so I can plan for it?

I am a bit terrified that we will pay for the sessions and be told that because of the number of times and time period this has covered that we are a "flop" anyway. Does that make sense?


He claims that as long as I am in the mindset of "working on the M", he will do anything to make it better. Feels like a condition, which frustrates me. When he does that, I do feel as KA has put it..."I don't need to be M that bad."

Just trying to sort out my own reactivity and accountability with our current situation and where to let him go. KWIM?

I thought of some more information:

The first year and a half or so we were dealing with his "letting go" of the OW that he had EA's with online. They had been a part of his life for a few years before he even met me. Those OW he had a connection with, some of them he had met in person and had sex with them before he met and M me. All of them lived out of state/country, except one MOW that he was still talking to online, but they had not met in person for several months before he met me.

Fast forward to the last 5 years and he has had very little connection with the OW, sometimes it has only gone on for a week before I have found out.

So it's almost like it's more like a child acting out and wanting to get attention. KWIM?

I have taken it very personal due to the "original pain" from the 1st year and a half of M.

He has not had a PA, not invested in these OW. I'm not making an excuse here at all, just trying to understand what I am dealing with.

He has NEVER asked me for a D or told me that he needed to be away from me.

He is always home and that Sunday night leaving the house late was a SHOCK for me because he has never been away from home or had unaccountable time in the 6 1/2 years we have been M. I didn't think to even wake up or follow him, didn't even cross my mind.

The only FOG that he has been in (after the 1st year and a half of the regular WS FOG) is that I'm accountable too for his actions or that he "didn't do it" with the Porn (lying).

But he has readily admitted that what he was doing is wrong.

Does that make sense?

OUC, I don't know how if there's a set number of sessions. I had one session, when I needed the insight and motivation, but my H was so mad, because he blamed my changes on my time here on the board, so he wanted at the time nothing to do with it.

I understand your fear, but I think they would let you know that upfront. And after the first session, you will see whether you two are or are not putting in the work.


Is he willing to back that up with action? I think this may be something that may be asked of you, for you to commit to the relationship for the time that you are working on it. You can see how more effective it would be, you two working togehter.

I think it is a condition that you have the power whether or not to choose, and are choosing. You're still here. Not giving to get. Letting go of the response. A choice you're making towards your goals, KWIM?

He is awake, talking with me about this, said we can do the sessions here or we can go to an outside MC.

We're about to sign him on to this website for a post. Should be interesting.

"He has NEVER asked me for a D or told me that he needed to be away from me."

Why would he want a divorce? He is able to carry on his affairs, one after another, after another, until you catch him. Isn't it wearing to be the warden?

And while you are spending all of your energies trying to catch and reform him, you are neglecting to work on your issues.

A 12-Step program should be a life saver. Stick with it.