Jayne, why did you need to take the children on the trip? It is tooo much!

Babysitter? Grandparents? was no one available to care for them? I used to care for kids for weeks at a time while thier mom went on business trips. Better for the kids and the parents.

And I have many times seen a mom bring little boys in the woman's bathroom. There is nothing wrong with it. If you were alone that is what you would have to do.

I guess you cannot count on your husband when it comes to childcare issues. Too bad.

Ya cant change him....apparantly. He half heartedly does everything. I am irritated at him just from what you have told us. I hate half assed stuff. If you do it, do it right.

My MIL and FIL just recently stayed at our house for two weeks while we were in NZ, so this was too soon to (a) ask them to do it again, or (b) leave the kdis again for so long. They're getting old enough so that it's easier to take them than it used to be. In a lot of ways, they're actually old enough for it to be fun to be with them places.

Plus, if we move here, I want the kids to be prepared, to see the place along with us so it isn't so mysterious and scary, and to get excited about moving here. I want to show them some really fun things to do here, and also to let them come with us for some of the house-hunting stuff. I'm trying to explain things to them as we go: about daddy getting this job, and how good it would be if I could also get a job in the same place AND we could find a good school for them; about how it would mean leaving our house, but we could get another house, and this house we could get a dog and plant a garden since we'll be here year-round, etc.

And they are now old enough that they really don't want to go in the women's bathroom. In fact I did try to get DS6b to go with me into the women's when DS6a was taking so long, but he didn't want to. But yes, when they were younger I took them in all the time.

To H's credit, tonight at dinner when DS6a started to go to the bathroom by himself and H was talking to me and I was watching 6a walk away, H decided all on his own to follow him to the bathroom.

Jayne, I find it interesting how you seem to consistantly take on too much, and then you complain and are filled with resentment. I have done this also...but less lately.

Could you learn to take on less? And NOT be filled with resentment or feel like complaining?

Or are you stuck being a person that wants to do too much?

Hmmm, wow... You see that? You aren't the first to tell me that, by any means...

It feels to me like I can't or don't want to *not* do any of the things I'm doing. I've been trying to learn to say no... and in fact recently I declined a nomination to be on the executive board of something, and was relieved and proud of myself for saying no.

Resentment... so if I am *choosing* to do all these things then I shouldn't resent H's not choosing to do the same?

I try to phrase things in the form "I want to do such-and-such" rather than "I have to or I should do such-and-such". Even if it's something unpleasant like a chore, if I'm doing it to avoid an unpleasant outcome (like doing paperwork or housework - the outcome of *not* doing it is worse than the unpleasantness of doing it).

So I'm sure you're right. I'm definitely the type of person who plans more activities in a day, and puts more things on my to-do list, than is realistic. I've also started adding 30 minutes in between activities even if I think it isn't necessary. I'm finding it is necessary, and the 30 minutes is helping me be on time.

But if there's something specific that you're hoping I see, can you spell it out a little better? I may just be tired and distracted and not seeing something specific.

In other news, it looks like we're really gonna move here. H signed his contract and both places I visited earlier this week want to find funding to hire me. The kids have mostly enjoyed their time here and are comfortable with the idea of moving here. Mission accomplished!

Bumping for a friend... if you want to just reply on my thread you can...

Ears, I just saw something you wrote on Cullenized's thread and I want to copy and paste it here if you don't mind. It's something I want to be able to read often:


You've said things like this to me before, about anger being useful in showing us stuff, and about frustration. That's something I need to be reminded of often. Thanks.

Thanks, jayne, me, too! It wasn't until I reread the Dace of Anger this year that I really "got it", that willingness and participation in arguing is telling myself and H that I am not willing to protect myself, that I will put my protection in his court, to do or not do. NO! I am going to protect myself, I am capable, and that's the choice I want to make for myself and my marriage.

Uh oh, jayne, I wanted to clarify that part about boundaries. I was SO relieved when I read on AmI's thread that a good marriage (back in state of intimacy, in a permanent way) doesn't need you to enforce boundaries with your partner. Because of Rule Of Protection, don't be the cause of your spouse's unhappiness. So you would share your O&H, and the person would stop.

That goes both ways. When we are feeling reactive or argumentative, that is our signal that WE are in State of Conflict, willing to gain at our spouse's expense. So we need our boundaries to protect our spouses and our marriage, and ourselves, too. And that forwards us in our goal, our choice, to get to state of intimacy.

That's where drive-by O&H is so helpful, gives me a tool to share my O&H respectfully when I'm out of touch with the respect that I have for H and myself and my choices.

Ears, thanks for both of those posts explaining more. I think what you have written, I need to hear and remember. It's the remembering that's the problem. Thanks for writing it on my thread.

It seems I keep forgetting about frustration. Even this morning, I started feeling angry and frustrated, because we're going to have to pay someone to fix our sprinklers, and I'm blaming H for not blowing them out last fall before they froze. Every other year H was in Canada and my neighbors did it for me, but this year they moved and H was here. And our yard looks awful now.

Ok. Nothing stopped me from doing it myself, or calling M&W (neighbors) asking them to come show me how to do it. I'm sure they would have. Yes I was busy and working outside the home and H wasn't, but he prolly felt just as busy as me even if he was working from home. If I chose not to get it done cus I was too busy, then that's the choice I made, the priority I set, that the work I was doing was worth more to me than having to pay later for any damage.

I think I understand what you are saying about boundaries, that we need them when there's a state of conflict, but the ultimate goal is for each spouse to protect the other, so boundaries won't be needed. Would that sort of look like, I would set my boundaries, but if H is protecting me (and vice versa) then those boundaries are not being crossed or even approached, so I don't have to keep up a state if vigilence to protect my boundaries?

Jayne,

Just popping in to say...

Healthy boundaries are needed to live a healthy, connected and respectful life.

Boundaries help intimacy...getting to and staying in intimacy.

Boundaries make conflict connective.

Misused boundary enforcements create conflict and withdrawal.

Consider your frustration...what is it signalling you? Frustration comes from unmet expectations...and anger comes from someone crossing your boundaries and that someone includes you, too.

LA

Thanks LA for popping in!

My frustration was coming from my expecting to continue the way I had been... not having to worry about the yard, expecting that H would just take over doing everything M&W had been doing without even being asked. I've been spoiled, I've been doing almost no yard work the whole time I've lived here, M&W did everything and I didn't even have to think about it. That's unrealistic to expect to be able to live like that and continue to have a nice yard.

Another source of unmet expectations is with myself. I place so very many expectations on the things I want to get done. I want to do yard work but I've got other stuff that's higher on my list. In fact I've got so many things on my list I don't know where to begin, again, my big huge eternal struggle.

And I put some of that frustration onto H, with an unspoken expectation that everything I don't have time to do, that he should do.

Right now he's handling the sprinkler problem in his way, not the way I was suggesting (to call M&W for their opinion first) but I believe his way will actually achieve the desired results faster than my way. And I told him. I thanked him for doing such a good job of taking care of the matter and that I agree his way was the right thing to do.

Another place I feel frustration, is when I get phone calls when I finally hunker down to get some paperwork done. I don't feel comfortable telling ppl I'll talk to them later, and I just sit there with frustration and resentment growing. Learning to respectfully express that I will call them later would be good.

Wow, jayne, I love examples, because they take this out of thoughts and promises and gestures and bring it into actions.

Does taking the piece of burnt toast prove love and maturity, and taking the tasty toast prove selfishness?

We had a huge escalation last night, DD7 and 12 were so upset. Our rental in SoCal is a 1 bedroom, with a futon in the living room. H gave the kids the bedroom until I got here. but when I got here, H and I took the bedroom. Last night was my last night, and the kids thought they should have the bedroom, and were so mad at how SELFISH I was to not give it to them. I plan to reread Between Parent and Child and HNHN for Parents when i get back; I think there's some answer in there that will help us work this out better.

ears, this is not a dis, but a minute, tiny observation I've felt in the past of you and your kids. There's no doubt at all you love your kids and are a great mom, but I've felt that you and I have a different viewpoint in one aspect. One thing I've always maintained with my daughter is that I want her to express herself, test herself, and never be afraid to try things or say things, however, I tell her that I expect her to understand that it's an adult's job to raise the kid. An adult's job to make decisions, make choices that are for the best of all involved, and even make choices the kid won't like. Because, adults are more educated, more mature, have more wisdom, have experienced more, can legally take care of things the kids can't, and generally make the better decisions. By the time my D17 turns 18, I expect her to have a lot more savvy than when she was 8 or 12 or even 16. But she still won't be in good enough shape to take care of all problems yet; it's an ongoing process, and the older one gets, the more one is able to take on and able to make better decisions.

The other aspect of that is that, because of this difference, it is NOT up to the child to question what the adult does. Unless abuse or danger is involved of course. But assuming it's a good loving parent like you or me, the child doesn't get to question my decisions.

Letting them think they have that right is a disservice, IMO. It's what is creating a generation of young adults who think they deserve more just because of who they are and how they were raised. Who quit a job because they've been there two years and aren't made manager yet.

You'll do them a favor to teach them that there will always be someone higher up on the chain; that there are times you get free will to do what you want, but it's not gonna happen with your parents - or other adults.

So bottom line, it never would have occurred to my D17 to question why the adults get the bedroom, because she knows that the adults make the decisions, she can only ask for things - not expect them (but she trusts me to always take care of her beyond her expectations), and when we say something, the only way she'll get something different is if she can come up with a great argument for why it should be different. Win/win all around.

I hope that makes sense. And I hope it gives you a different perspective to think about.

Thanks, cat, for your perspective. I totally agree with everything that you said. I think kids need to be able to relax safe trusting that their parents can make sound decisions for them. Last night made it really obvious to me that something is missing in my execution. I think I still have time to get this right. I'll talk to H; I think he feels this way, too, and would be willing to communicate this to them together.

Hi ears,

Yes I agree with cat. I was sitting here wondering why the kids thought they had a right to the bedroom; why they could accuse you of being selfish.

My kids are younger so maybe I haven't reached that stage yet. But even if my kids tried to claim the good bedroom for themselves, and pouted, they would still know that they didn't really have a right if I said no.

About the burnt toast, to me it's entirely different. Young bodies need food. But young bodies can sleep on hard surfaces, and smaller spaces, easier than old bones. My kids think it's a treat to sleep in sleeping bags on the living room floor, in "forts" they build. I'd never dream of asking my mom to sleep on the floor.

Another reason the adults get the one bedroom, is cus you're married, ya know? Unless there's abuse involved, you're doing your kids right by protecting intimacy between you and their father.

So yes, for the grownup to take the choice piece of toast IMHO is selfish.

I've prolly got this very unrealistic romantic (in the fairy-tale sense, not in the lovey-dovey sense) view but I'm reminded of a couple different stories. One was from "Uncle Arthur's Bedtime Stories" about a poor woman with a bunch of kids and sometimes all they had was one glass of milk. They would pass the glass around, each one was sposed to drink just down to a certain line and pass it on. Of course the mother usually drank much less than her "share" and passed the glass on. But I bet if anyone slept on the floor it was the kids, not the mom.

Also, that book "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" or something. They also were very poor. Again I can picture the mom going without food or nice clothes so the kids could have more. But I can't picture the mom sleeping on the floor so that the kids could sleep in a bed.

How did it go in CA?

Ok, today I have an OPPORTUNITY to practice what I'm learning to recognize from anger and frustration.

We went to the 4th of July fireworks last night, and the kids wanted sparklers. I said I hadn't seen any for sale and wasn't sure if you could buy fireworks in this state. H said he saw some when he was at the store earlier. He said he didn't buy any, but we could buy some later. (I dunno if he explicitly promised, or what; well prolly the kids asked if we could and he prolly said "We'll see" cus that's what he usually says.) But by the time the fireworks ended and we got out of the traffic jam, the store was closed. H said we could get some tomorrow (today). I said, they prolly won't be available on the day after the 4th. He said, of course they will, we've bought sparklers for their b-day before. Well I don't remember that, but he was insistant that of course we could.

Last night DS6b was sad at bedtime and I asked what was wrong, and he said that we wouldn't be able to get sparklers the next day. I said, well daddy seems to think we can. I can't do anything about it now, but let's see if he's right.

And then today, H wanted to take the kids to the library but they didn't want to go, and I asked him if he wanted to tell them they could get sparklers afterwards. I didn't hear (I had to go potty) but the kids later told me he said they'd get sparklers after the library.

You guessed it - they couldn't find any at the store. Of course H bought some other things that he wanted. He said we had to go to another store to get the sparklers. You guessed it gain - that store was closed.

It isn't that I feel bad about my kids not getting sparklers. I didn't say we'd get sparklers. It's that I *really* don't like broken promises, lies, and disappointment.

H is acting pissy these past few days, like he's mad at me, but when I ask he says he's just tired. He found out a few days ago that someone he went to h.s. with died. When he told me, I said things like, "Oh no! What happened?" etc, and he just snapped "I already told you all I know!" So I shut up, and he started telling me more. (sheesh)

When he's acted moody I've asked if it's bothering him and he says no. I've tried just a little, gently, asking if he wants to talk about it. No.

When one of my friends died, I thought he was incredibly insensitive and wasn't willing to listen to me talk about it. Maybe it's a Mars/Venus thing. Maybe I should do what someone else said guys would want, and give him SF.

I offered a couple nights ago though and he said he was tired.

Grrrr.

Oh, I was gonna explore what my anger is telling me. I acknowledge that if I really wanted the kdis to have sparklers I could have seen to it myself. I have no control over wheat he may promise or imply to the kids. I can't "fix" his relationship with them. I can't protect them from ever being disappointed, not even from their own father.

I *could* practise some H&O if he'd listen. It would prolly be most effective as a drive-by.

Or I could withdraw.

Dinner's ready, gotta run.

I don't really have any insight into touchiness; never been able to fix that, either. The only thing that comes to mind is taking the higher road, staying cheerful, being available - safe - so he can maybe slowly start feeling like dealing with you won't be a win or lose situation, which, IMO, is sometimes how men see everything. Mars/Venus. Basically, I think what they really want from a wife is a replacement for their mother - safe to be vulnerable.

I'd like to second this, jayne It sounds to me like you are in State of Conflict and your H are in State of Withdrawal, not experiencing your marriage from your Givers' view, but your Takers', and those Takers' needs are not getting met. Did I get that correct? Unless there are extreme cirumstances in the way, just being kind and doing those small EN meeting things that you are enthusiastic about should get you all back into State Of Intimacy, right? Have you two eliminated the LBs like AOs going forward? What's your assessment of the situation?

You know I work to do small EN things for H evyday, things that I'm enthusiastic about, to experience intimacy even when we're in conflict. I think, too, that it made a big difference asking H to do small things for me, too, like "My shoulders are so sore, but I'd love it if you would rub them for me, how would you feel about that" Then we both could feel really good about ourselves and each other. Would that be honest for you, to ask your H for small, specific things that you think he is usually enthusiastic about?

I can relate to the sparklers thing. We have had trouble fitting everything in, too, when we were scrambling in so many difrections. Moves are really hard that way, but fortunately temporary. Or is this part of a larger issue?

We had a family talk yesterday about family roles and sharing O&H and respecting parents' decisions. Kids do fight against limits, I think that's part of the process, but I think this was good that it came out in the open in such an OBVIOUS way, because we've had this undercurrent for some time, playing out over and over again. That's why the burnt toast thing jumped out at me, because my kids would act like martyrs if they had burnt toast and their dad or I didn't. It's natural to work to give our kids extra in the way you described, jayne, like extra milk, but that toast example triggered me to how everyday situations turn into victim-rescuer-persecutor triangles in my house. I was trying to make sense of it in my own mind, and here I saw an analogy in the burnt toast you posted about, an analogy that helped me make sense of it. I am so encouraged that we could talk about it and diffuse it from the pattern that the kids had thrown on top, trying to make sense if it themselves. And then once we talked it out calmly, they didn't see it like that yesterday.

Yes, very much in a state of conflict for me. For him, withdrawal? How would I be able to tell? It isn't like he's communicating any less than usual, which is to say almost not at all.


Long story, I'll give detailed update in next post, right now I wanna get just a couple things out there. He's AOing, I'm trying to communicate H&O but I'm crying. He's yelling and being sarcastic.


Really? Even in the midst of an argument? I dunno what that would look like in our case, he seems to just want to have nothing to do or say with me. I don't know what to do, I feel powerless to make anything better.


At the moment I don't think that would go over well at all. Maybe after he cools down. He used to make coffee for me in the mornings, even if he's mad. Lately he occasionally wouldn't. He didn't this morning. If he wouldn't do that, then I don't see him being open about doing anything else.


I *feel* like it's the same old story, the same conflict, that I want H&O and communication and he claims we all just don't hear him correctly. The stress of moving, jobs, and all the trips is prolly making things worse though.


Interesting, I didn't realize the subtext that the burnt toast held for you. I wouldn't like it if my kids acted like martyrs if they had the burnt toast - in that case I might be tempted to take the good toast! J/K. But I wouldn't want to foster an attitude of entitlement in them. I see many examples of young ppl feeling the universe owes them something - it doesn't. Not saying that's your kids, just saying I try to combat such attitudes when they appear. Or at least I *thought* I did...

Anyway, one time my bf at the time asked me if I'd be the type of mother who would take the burnt toast for herself. That's why that particular example has stuck in my mind. Now, I *always* take the burnt piece. I hope xbf is happy, wherever he is!

Maybe you should walk away for now? Nothing has to be settled today; wait til you're stronger. That's why I'm in here; we were cleaning out garage so MrCat could work on D17's car. That's because I was having to climb over 2 lawnmowers and other assorted stuff to get to his tool box yesterday, and mentioned that I pulled my back out; he asked how, I told him it was trying to get to the toolbox. But now that we're cleaning out the garage, the whole mess of the garage is MY fault! AO every 3 or 4 minutes. So when he gets really nasty, I have to walk away. Don't know if that's my passive aggressive way of getting what I want (no AOs at me) and punishing him (having to do it alone), or if it's me protecting myself so I don't start crying. All I know is it's better than standing there listening to him tell me how worthless I am.

I guess my moral is be careful what you wish for, huh?
clean garage *weighs against* getting torn down