Tabby and Catgirl, I am so sorry to hear this. I was a bit disappointed with my in-laws since they just said that my WH had to make his own decisions, but to my knowledge they never accepted OW. That would have felt terrible. I am so hurt that people I thought were my friends accepted her. It was particularly sick since she took her 5 year old daughter to see her affair partner - my WH - and his friends!

And the part about not being happy... I don't think you can run away from your problems, they will still be inside you and you can't run from yourself. You haven't solved anything and you are likely to do it again and again.

Being a OW or OM has nothing to do with morals, frankly if you are placing all of your faith in morals to stop affairs your stupid.

Tell me how many of you ever finished dating someone before you found someone else? Everyone finds someone else before they move on you learn that lesson from middle school on. To believe people turn that off once you get married is silly at best. That is why people become WH/WW or OM/WW. It is what you have done since you were 12. Forget the argument of people grow up, that is just as silly as putting faith in morals.

I made a comment on another thread about responsibility to marriage and where to place blame. Seems a lot of people just want to blame the WH/WW or OM/OW ignoring the fact the BS has a part in the whole mess. Since if the WH/WW was happy they never would've looked in the first place. Which is the WHOLE idea behind MB.

People get caught up in emotions and opportunity, it is that simple. Throw love into the mix and the mess gets even deeper.

OH.......this is gonna get good. I'm off to get a snack and sit back and watch the fireworks!

LOL! Yep!

Charlotte

I'm off on vacation in a few hours so I'll bite!


I notice you're a junior member so maybe you haven't had time to read everything here. Either way, you are mistaken in your interpretation of the WHOLE idea behind MB. I'll try to clarify for you but if you read around a bit you'll find these statements over and over again:

1. Marriage is a partnership, so when their are problems, both spouses are responsible for a share of those problems. This is true for all problems with the exception of abuse and adultery. I assume you understand abuse so I'll skip ahead to adultery.

2. Adultery is a choice. It is a unilateral choice made by the WS. The BS doesn't get to participate in the decision. Therefore, the WS is 100% responsible for this choice.

3. While the BS may be partially, even mostly responsible for the problems in the marriage beforehand, there are absolutely NO circurmstances under which adultery is a solution to any marital problem.

4. There is no room for a 3rd person in a marriage.
The OP, whether married and a WS him/herself or not, is a slimebag for getting involved with a married person. There really isn't anything more to be said about OP's and even if they are someone known to the BS, there is absolutely no value in any effort put forward to develop or repair a relationship between a BS and their WS's OP.

So basically, when it comes to an affair, the WS is at fault for unilaterally choosing to go outside the marriage. Plain and simple.

Oh, and I wanted to add that you are perfectly correct when you say that being an OW/OM has nothing to do with morals. They have none.

All I can say is wow, lessons learn in middle school huh.

Moral:


1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel.

3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.

4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.

5. conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral): a moral man.

6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.

7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.

8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.
–noun

9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.

10. the embodiment or type of something.

11. morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.






You know like when you find a wallet with money in it and you return it as is.

When the hot co-worker hits on you and you ignore because YOU know its not the MORAL thing to do your spouse.

Just because your not happy or mad at your spouse gives you no right to go out and seek your happiness in some one else's arms,
hey I know some YOU can do sit down and talk to your spouse and let them know that you are not happy and seek some help together with a professional, instead of hooking up with some else.

Don't put the blame on the BS about your choice to cheat , I have yet to see a remorseful ws post telling us they their bs was in the hotel room with them when they chose to throw those wedding vows out the window.

Your post comes across as a person that beats their spouse because they did not take out the garbage make the bed the right. or has the cans in the pantry all facing in the same direction.



"Since if the WH/WW was happy they never would've looked in the first place."


Wow thats like a bank robber excuse of robbing a bank because he's broke.

No, that is not the whole idea behind MB. And while it is not uncommon to assume that 'the WH/WW must've been unhappy or they never would've looked' it's not true for many affairs. If you read SAA or Not 'Just' Friends you'll see how many, many affairs are not sought out at all. In addition, even if the WH/WW wasn't happy it isn't always the fault of the BS. A BS can also be unhappy in a M and not cheat.

You know Tabby1 would have valued your post back if you not for the "junior member" line. I read all of the information on this site and several of the books before I ever posted. The whole notion that you have spent more time on a web forum therefore you know more is silly. Because tell you what I have seen from a lot of "senior members" here is nothing but drama.

I will give you that an Affair is no way to handle marriage problems. But to say the WS is 100% at fault? Sorry don't buy into that. Because if the BS did a true partnership then you never get a WS, therefore no opportunity for an affair.

As far as OP being involved in a marriage and if they have the "right" to be there. They were invited in the marriage there is NO WAY for a OP to force their way in. So the OP is not the one to blame for issues the blame belongs with WS and BS. Blaming the OP for the problem is like blaming your dog for taking a steak off of the table when you walk away. It was your fault for setting the plate and walking away.

So again morals play nothing into this. It is all neglect, interest and opportunity from the WS and BS. Relying on morals to keep your marriage "safe" is like holding sand in your hand.

But like I have seen in threads over and over here it is just seems easier to blame the OP. Since a lot of people seem to not like self reflection or they just liked the status quo where they were happy but neglecting the WS. The OP is just fills the opportunity that was there.

Sorry doing believe in this either. Because there has to be a reason the person was open the affair in the first place. Sure a one night thing can be a "just happened" but an affair no way. For an affair to happen there was something missing from the marriage.


You give the right opportunity, interest and neglect and everyone has their price.


See this is the drama I find funny from the more senior members here.

I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt. What you are saying goes against MB as well as a number of authorities on infidelity.



Since when is the BS solely responsible for a "true partnership"? Like I said before, both spouses share responsibility TOGETHER for pre-existing marital problems. It is a complicated dynamic that is different for every couple.


I actually agree with most of this - especially the comparison to the dog taking the steak. I don't believe they were necessarily "invited" in. Sometimes, yes they were. Most of the time they actively pursue that "invitation."



If one has morals, you have more than your hand to hold the sand in.


Yes it is easier to blame the OP. Pointless in many ways, but easier. The BS has spent X number of years with their WS. They have loved them. They have raised children with them. They have been through good times and bad. The BS KNOWS their WS's virtues. On the other hand, the OP is usually some stranger with no prior significance to the BS other than the person for whom their WS decided to ruin their lives. Any positive virtues the OP might have are not known and will never be recognized by the BS. They are easier to blame because we WANT our WS to be the person we loved and lived with all those years, not the ugly monster they are right now.

Hi hu7668! Oh I'm gonna bite too! I guess you can call me an old timer MB drama queen too.

First off, never for one minute did I accept one ounce of responsibility for H's A. Never did, never will. I'll accept responsibility for my part in making the M vulnerable, but he is the one who fell down the slippery slope, not me.

Second, the idea that all these As happen because ENs aren't being met is pretty ludicrous. Some of the time, like what happened in our M, life happens, and it ain't always pretty. People die, people get sick, people are stressed, people get screwed up. And God forbid if there is a predatory OP that is so dysfunctional and needy in the mix. In our sitch all the stars were alligned perfectly, with an OW who very willingly moved in for the kill. Yep, H didn't invite her in, she invited herself. Before he knew what hit him H was hooked on all the feel good chemicals being shot right into his being. Much nicer than facing the life circumstances surrounding us.

Third, yes As are very junior highish. FWH and OW acted like they were 12 yrs old. OW's love letters were the funniest things I ever read. "We share the same stars, moon, and sky!" The thing is as long as people don't grow up these As will keep on happening. I'm Med to a man now, not some junior high boy living in some fantasy world that there is a soulmate who will just make him whole.

What you are essentially saying here is that infidelity is an acceptable way to deal with any problems in the marriage. Well, all marriages have problems of some kind at some point. So should we all just cheat? Sorry, but the marriage vows include "for better or for worse", "in sickness and in health" and "for richer or for poorer" - all 3 of these cover things that could be missing from the marriage.

When you make those vows, you are promising to "forsake all others" - as in NOT to have an affair, despite the fact that bad things do and will happen in your life together. So an affair doesn't just "happen" because something is missing. An affair happens when the WS breaks their vows. Plain and simple.


Only if one decides to break their vows.

Originally Posted By: swan's song

Your post comes across as a person that beats their spouse because they did not take out the garbage make the bed the right. or has the cans in the pantry all facing in the same direction.

Hu's post:
See this is the drama I find funny from the more senior members here.

Why is this drama when you said your self that a ws cheats because his or her spouse is not up to par with keeping them happy, last time I looked it was not my Sig Other job to keep happy, it's my job to do so can he share his happiness in life with me? Yep and I should do the same sharing the joys and the pains that come my way.


Like BHHFSGuy said there are a lot of BS on here that chose not to cheat on their spouse even when their WS is living with the OP.
I'm sure that they had the opportunity to do so and yet they don't because they know it's not going to solved anything by sleeping with some one else something the WS has to figure out themselves in the long run

Tabby1:

From my impressions for reading the MB material is where I am getting my ideas. Maybe I am making all of this too black and white, which would not surprise me because I am from a IT background. I always look for the root cause of an issue not the fluff that can lead you too it. The fluff in these cases is the OP and the affair. To me the root cause for the affair is more important then the OP or the affair itself. Since learning about the whole emotional needs concept I better understand root causes of these issues.

I did not say the BS is solely responsible there is plenty of blame to go around. Most of the blame lies with the WS, but the OP just seems to be the easy target. The OP is just the opportunist that took the invitation.

Your is the most rational reason I have seen for blaming the OP. But I see past your reasoning back to the root cause of the problems that belong with the WS/BS. If find the whole drama of the OP to be a waste of resources that could be better spent on fixing the root causes.

Vows like any promise are not worth relying on. If I would've know how hard marriage was going to be when I got married I would've tried and communicated better then I have. Actions are what keep a marriage together not some silly set of words.


CV55:
Your right about the taking responsibility in making the marriage vulnerable. Will never say that the BS is totally responsible, because they are not. I am not arguing that. I am arguing the whole idea of morals and the OP. Sorry but the "predatory OP" you mention does not exists. Sure you can be chased, but unless there is interest and neglect being chases is like having a 12 year old interested in you. Your just not interested.

The whole notion of people growing up?? Oh come on! What we out grow our emotions except those approved by our spouse?


Everyone:
I am not defending affairs, which seems to be the impression a lot of you have. My beef is with the notion of morals and the OP. Morals do not play into the thinking of the OP, opportunity does. The OP supplies the opportunity that matches the interest and neglect the WS has. Then emotions will override ANY and ALL morals you have.

Happy never mentioned "happy" that is such a relative term it is not funny. It your job as a spouse to keep your mate interested to the point they are not interested in someone else. When you are both interested in each other guess what you do get happiness (whatever you define that as).

Again if you took a BS and gave them the right OP, the right opportunity etc... they would. Everyone wants to feel love. Which may not involve sleeping with anyone.

OP are not to blame for any of these affairs. They are just an easy target for blame. Because to not blame the OP requires you to look at yourself and your spouse to determine what went wrong. Self reflection is painful and sucks, so people naturally take the easy way which is to blame the OP.

Ahhh, that explains it ! (sorry, that's a cheap shot I know!)


I completely agree with this rationale. However, emotionally, I hate my Wstbx's OW anyway for reasons I stated earlier.


I think you are combining 2 things into 1. Here lies the difference. (1) there are problems in the marriage. (2) one spouse decides to have an affair because of (1). Issue (1) may have many possible solutions that normally require both spouses to work on. Issue (2) happens when one spouse unilaterally decides to break their vows. They use Issue (1) to justify their actions but in reality, it is a completely separate thing.


Thanks. Perhaps my drama regarding the OP is a waste but honestly it takes no energy for me to hate Wstbx's OW. It would take way more energy to try to forgive her and that's not something I have the time, energy or motivation to do. I do realize it's fruitless but that doesn't change how I feel.


The whole idea of marriage is based on vows and promises. If they are not worth relying on, then it's not worth getting married.


Who says a faithful spouse has never been interested when somebody else has shown in them? Have you never been flattered by a compliment before? Have you never been flattered that someone was interested in you? Have you never connected with someone on an intellectual level, really enjoyed the discussion only to find out later that they were actually flirting with you?
These things happen to everyone all the time, yet people aren't jumping into bed with the flatterer. A faithful spouse is faithful not because nobody ever shows interest but because their vows were important to them.


Again I agree that morals do not play into the thinking of the OP. If they had morals, they wouldn't jump at the opportunity. This is what separates us from the dog stealing the steak. It's also not entirely opportunity - some OP's make their openings and truly are predatory. But like you and I both agree on, the OP is unimportant anyway.

Emotions do not override my morals or those of truly faithful spouses. This is what makes them faithful.

Well i can tell you that i have always stopped dating someone simply because after a time i realized they were not the person i wanted to be with and i never had any "waiting" when i broke up with them. As a matter of fact it was a long time before i dated anyone else after i broke up with a person from middle school on until i met my FWH.

And my FWHs A was very similar to CV55, it was losing his mother, turning 50, and the stresses of life in general. And though i know the the FOW did not "rape" my H, she constantly pursued him knowing full well that he was married and had three kids. He kept a family picture on his desk.

I have been told by more than one source at his company that she went after him BIG TIME. And like i said i certainly put more blame on my FWH than i do the FOW, i feel she has a part in his choice to have an A.

But i like CV55 will never accept responsibility for my FWHs A, he made those choices, i did not.

So, is it your assertion that when a single person get's involved with a person they know is married, that they are acting in a moral and just manner, so long as the married person is okay with it?


They have some responsibility. I mean, if nobody would ever date a married person, I'd bet there would be a lot less infidelity.

FWIW, I think many people mistake contempt for OP's as blaming them.