http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationsh...ur.aspx?cp-documentid=8294755&page=1

Glorifies the OW a bit too much for my taste...but interesting nonetheless.

"But somehow, after interviewing the women you're about to meet, my past doesn't seem so shameful."

And there's the whole reason for her article.

Yeah. Great.

It was not ok for my x to seek friendship w/ a woman outside our marriage. And, it was not ok for her to respond.

Just what we need. Make it seem like they aren't so bad.

But OMs are just as bad.

the interesting read is how all these ow/op seem so self imposed to feel justified in their lack of character and morals because THEY were in a low time.

it just goes to show how society has become so self indulgent for everyones own personal satisfaction rather then take the nano second to think about one's consequences on another human being(s) like a bs or children of a bs.

"Four years later, we got engaged. We've now been married for more than two years, and have worked through our guilt over how we started. And despite what people may think, I don't consider for even a nanosecond that Todd would cheat on me. There's just too much history, love and potential for it to be worth it. And those are his words"

LOL, probably the same words he told his wife.................

I was reading the other day on the other board a thread called "low moral character".

There were over 200 replies and only a couple thought that an affair indicated low moral character. Not surprising since they are all OW.

But sometimes I wonder if they REALLY believe it.

Funny enough, I was watching Tori & Dean, completely forgetting THEIR past, until she brought it up. She was saying that he was married when they met and he left his wife for her, so it's always in the back of her mind that he would do the same thing. Of course, his reply was, "but I was in an unhappy relationship then". I just wanted to pull his hair out! Stupid, stupid man and OW!!! I changed the channel.

And in a few years she will be here in SHOCK, SHOCK I TELL YOU, because the cheater she married..........CHEATS!!

And I won't feel a bit sorry for her because she VOLUNTEERED for it.

OW are mad!
I don't know how they justify this in their minds. Worse are the WS who try to justify their OW/OM's behaviour.
A few weeks back, my WH was trying to convince me that the OW is sweet n innocent n that she hasn't done any wrong. He then tried to convince me that we could get back together when he is 60 n i am 56 I told him that never in a million years would I ruin someone else's marriage/relationship to build my own. That shut him up!!

Yes, it is amazing how they all spout the same stuff. How can they be so STUPID?????

Yes, the OW in my sitch is so wonderful, would never cheat on my WH and is so much more mature than I am. We were on the phone and I was fed up so I let him know that yeah maybe you think she is so wonderful and so much better than I am, but I never cheated with another woman's husband and took said husband away from his children. He hung up on me

That is so funny! It's amazing how they suddenly run away from hearing the truth.
U can only laugh at them

I know! It amused me a little then, but it really cracks me up now. He is so silly and when I think about some of the things he said right after Dday...I just have to laugh because they are so senseless!!

From the article....

What self-serving, victimization drivel!

"He'd pull me into bed..."

I've read all sorts of stuff like this -- I've had a fascination with understanding the OW mindset because my wife WAS the OW twice.

What drove her to it, how did she justify it, how did she look in the mirror every morning?

It truly amazes me...I don't think I could handle the guilt. Not only was my wife cheating on our family, but she was taking part in destroying two other families (her second OM had quite a few kids).

This was not the woman I married.

She, of course, blamed the OM and they, of course, blamed her.

Naturally, the second OM had an easier time of convincing his wife that my wife is a "hussy" when they learned he wasn't the first affair she'd had.

Thanks for the post -- interesting read.

A tad OT, but how can the OW's family justify her behavior?

My ExH has been living with his OW now for over 2 years. Her family adores him, even though he's just a few years younger than her parents are!!

OW cheated on her H to be with mine, yet her parents seem to approve and they approve of them living together knowing she ruined my M and my kids lives!

I'm sure they are real proud of how their only daughter turned out!

"I'm sure they are real proud of how their only daughter turned out! "

Yeah, I just found out my WH's ow parents and her sister are enabling his affair. bet they're real proud she has broken up a family.

I don't know, I guess I just can't understand how a parent would actually be O.K. in knowing their daughter cheated on her own H, to be with a married man with 2 kids, to cause a divorce, and then live with him, who is truly old enough to be her father.

Her parents have met my kids, so they see the children that were affected by all of this, yet they still are O.K with it and encourage it.

I mean we are now D'd, so even taling about this is a moot point, but how morally screwed up are people these days when they condone their own kid's affairs?! BTW, ExH's mother LOVES the OW, and she too encourages the whole situation!

Guess I wasn't raised to think that was an O.K thing to do.

OW parents are supposed to be very religious. Guess they missed the memo on commandment number 6...adultery!

Spin it around and ask what parent would for their child to be in a relationship with a person that has a history of cheating on a spouse, gf/bf,

I think most parents would want the best for their kids, and knowing that the person that their child has settle on in a cheater speaks volumes of the whole family moral compass.

Funny twist this has taken. My WstbxH's family was initially angry with him, with the exception of his mom. He convinced her that he actually met someone and fell in love in the 5 days between when he asked me for a divorce and D-day and she bought it . I think a lot of it was that she didn't want to believe her own son did something like that - her other son had only just discovered his WW's A 2 months prior to this. StbxMIL actually gave OW birthday presents that she bought for me and did everything she could to smooth things over between WstbxH and his brothers. But despite her insistance that WstbxH never actually cheated, she went to Scotland last fall to visit the rest of the family. I received Christmas cards from all of them addressed to Tabby and WstbxH - hope you can come visit soon etc.,etc. In other words, she was too ashamed to tell them - even though WstbxH and OW had been living together for over 6 months by then.

On OW's side, she has a large family. Almost all of them rallied around OWH. She has one sister who she is still close with, who enables the A and even babysits her DD to help keep her from her father (OW is trying to turn WstbxH into dad and is getting frustrated because neither DD nor OWH accept this :o). She has one other sister who still speaks to her, but her sisters DH is good friends with OWH and they have told OW that WstbxH is not welcome at their house. They hosted Christmas last year without them.

It's bizarre how family reacts and even more bizarre that OP's and WS don't seem to get it. WstbxH and OW are trying to get married because that way, everyone will have to accept it. Yeah, that'll help .

Every family is different. Some totally accept these As and don't rock the boat. My H's family did this when 2 siblings had As. Now, years later some of them are very different because of their own experiences.

I read online today a story about the golfer (Norman?) who is paying his exW 100M settlement. Apparently he had an A with Chris Everet? and they Med. Apparently all 4 Ss used to vacation together pre-A. I just realize this A crap is all over the place. It's accepted in many areas and flaunted publically. People are so pathetic in that they really think they have to have this man or woman that is Med to someone else.

Oh well! Not sure what my point is. I guess it's no surprise that so many folks don't see As as immoral behavior. What's important is "being happy"!

Tabby and Catgirl, I am so sorry to hear this. I was a bit disappointed with my in-laws since they just said that my WH had to make his own decisions, but to my knowledge they never accepted OW. That would have felt terrible. I am so hurt that people I thought were my friends accepted her. It was particularly sick since she took her 5 year old daughter to see her affair partner - my WH - and his friends!

And the part about not being happy... I don't think you can run away from your problems, they will still be inside you and you can't run from yourself. You haven't solved anything and you are likely to do it again and again.

Being a OW or OM has nothing to do with morals, frankly if you are placing all of your faith in morals to stop affairs your stupid.

Tell me how many of you ever finished dating someone before you found someone else? Everyone finds someone else before they move on you learn that lesson from middle school on. To believe people turn that off once you get married is silly at best. That is why people become WH/WW or OM/WW. It is what you have done since you were 12. Forget the argument of people grow up, that is just as silly as putting faith in morals.

I made a comment on another thread about responsibility to marriage and where to place blame. Seems a lot of people just want to blame the WH/WW or OM/OW ignoring the fact the BS has a part in the whole mess. Since if the WH/WW was happy they never would've looked in the first place. Which is the WHOLE idea behind MB.

People get caught up in emotions and opportunity, it is that simple. Throw love into the mix and the mess gets even deeper.

OH.......this is gonna get good. I'm off to get a snack and sit back and watch the fireworks!

LOL! Yep!

Charlotte

I'm off on vacation in a few hours so I'll bite!


I notice you're a junior member so maybe you haven't had time to read everything here. Either way, you are mistaken in your interpretation of the WHOLE idea behind MB. I'll try to clarify for you but if you read around a bit you'll find these statements over and over again:

1. Marriage is a partnership, so when their are problems, both spouses are responsible for a share of those problems. This is true for all problems with the exception of abuse and adultery. I assume you understand abuse so I'll skip ahead to adultery.

2. Adultery is a choice. It is a unilateral choice made by the WS. The BS doesn't get to participate in the decision. Therefore, the WS is 100% responsible for this choice.

3. While the BS may be partially, even mostly responsible for the problems in the marriage beforehand, there are absolutely NO circurmstances under which adultery is a solution to any marital problem.

4. There is no room for a 3rd person in a marriage.
The OP, whether married and a WS him/herself or not, is a slimebag for getting involved with a married person. There really isn't anything more to be said about OP's and even if they are someone known to the BS, there is absolutely no value in any effort put forward to develop or repair a relationship between a BS and their WS's OP.

So basically, when it comes to an affair, the WS is at fault for unilaterally choosing to go outside the marriage. Plain and simple.

Oh, and I wanted to add that you are perfectly correct when you say that being an OW/OM has nothing to do with morals. They have none.

All I can say is wow, lessons learn in middle school huh.

Moral:


1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

2. expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work; moralizing: a moral novel.

3. founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.

4. capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.

5. conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral): a moral man.

6. virtuous in sexual matters; chaste.

7. of, pertaining to, or acting on the mind, feelings, will, or character: moral support.

8. resting upon convincing grounds of probability; virtual: a moral certainty.
–noun

9. the moral teaching or practical lesson contained in a fable, tale, experience, etc.

10. the embodiment or type of something.

11. morals, principles or habits with respect to right or wrong conduct.






You know like when you find a wallet with money in it and you return it as is.

When the hot co-worker hits on you and you ignore because YOU know its not the MORAL thing to do your spouse.

Just because your not happy or mad at your spouse gives you no right to go out and seek your happiness in some one else's arms,
hey I know some YOU can do sit down and talk to your spouse and let them know that you are not happy and seek some help together with a professional, instead of hooking up with some else.

Don't put the blame on the BS about your choice to cheat , I have yet to see a remorseful ws post telling us they their bs was in the hotel room with them when they chose to throw those wedding vows out the window.

Your post comes across as a person that beats their spouse because they did not take out the garbage make the bed the right. or has the cans in the pantry all facing in the same direction.



"Since if the WH/WW was happy they never would've looked in the first place."


Wow thats like a bank robber excuse of robbing a bank because he's broke.

No, that is not the whole idea behind MB. And while it is not uncommon to assume that 'the WH/WW must've been unhappy or they never would've looked' it's not true for many affairs. If you read SAA or Not 'Just' Friends you'll see how many, many affairs are not sought out at all. In addition, even if the WH/WW wasn't happy it isn't always the fault of the BS. A BS can also be unhappy in a M and not cheat.

You know Tabby1 would have valued your post back if you not for the "junior member" line. I read all of the information on this site and several of the books before I ever posted. The whole notion that you have spent more time on a web forum therefore you know more is silly. Because tell you what I have seen from a lot of "senior members" here is nothing but drama.

I will give you that an Affair is no way to handle marriage problems. But to say the WS is 100% at fault? Sorry don't buy into that. Because if the BS did a true partnership then you never get a WS, therefore no opportunity for an affair.

As far as OP being involved in a marriage and if they have the "right" to be there. They were invited in the marriage there is NO WAY for a OP to force their way in. So the OP is not the one to blame for issues the blame belongs with WS and BS. Blaming the OP for the problem is like blaming your dog for taking a steak off of the table when you walk away. It was your fault for setting the plate and walking away.

So again morals play nothing into this. It is all neglect, interest and opportunity from the WS and BS. Relying on morals to keep your marriage "safe" is like holding sand in your hand.

But like I have seen in threads over and over here it is just seems easier to blame the OP. Since a lot of people seem to not like self reflection or they just liked the status quo where they were happy but neglecting the WS. The OP is just fills the opportunity that was there.

Sorry doing believe in this either. Because there has to be a reason the person was open the affair in the first place. Sure a one night thing can be a "just happened" but an affair no way. For an affair to happen there was something missing from the marriage.


You give the right opportunity, interest and neglect and everyone has their price.


See this is the drama I find funny from the more senior members here.

I was just giving you the benefit of the doubt. What you are saying goes against MB as well as a number of authorities on infidelity.



Since when is the BS solely responsible for a "true partnership"? Like I said before, both spouses share responsibility TOGETHER for pre-existing marital problems. It is a complicated dynamic that is different for every couple.


I actually agree with most of this - especially the comparison to the dog taking the steak. I don't believe they were necessarily "invited" in. Sometimes, yes they were. Most of the time they actively pursue that "invitation."



If one has morals, you have more than your hand to hold the sand in.


Yes it is easier to blame the OP. Pointless in many ways, but easier. The BS has spent X number of years with their WS. They have loved them. They have raised children with them. They have been through good times and bad. The BS KNOWS their WS's virtues. On the other hand, the OP is usually some stranger with no prior significance to the BS other than the person for whom their WS decided to ruin their lives. Any positive virtues the OP might have are not known and will never be recognized by the BS. They are easier to blame because we WANT our WS to be the person we loved and lived with all those years, not the ugly monster they are right now.

Hi hu7668! Oh I'm gonna bite too! I guess you can call me an old timer MB drama queen too.

First off, never for one minute did I accept one ounce of responsibility for H's A. Never did, never will. I'll accept responsibility for my part in making the M vulnerable, but he is the one who fell down the slippery slope, not me.

Second, the idea that all these As happen because ENs aren't being met is pretty ludicrous. Some of the time, like what happened in our M, life happens, and it ain't always pretty. People die, people get sick, people are stressed, people get screwed up. And God forbid if there is a predatory OP that is so dysfunctional and needy in the mix. In our sitch all the stars were alligned perfectly, with an OW who very willingly moved in for the kill. Yep, H didn't invite her in, she invited herself. Before he knew what hit him H was hooked on all the feel good chemicals being shot right into his being. Much nicer than facing the life circumstances surrounding us.

Third, yes As are very junior highish. FWH and OW acted like they were 12 yrs old. OW's love letters were the funniest things I ever read. "We share the same stars, moon, and sky!" The thing is as long as people don't grow up these As will keep on happening. I'm Med to a man now, not some junior high boy living in some fantasy world that there is a soulmate who will just make him whole.

What you are essentially saying here is that infidelity is an acceptable way to deal with any problems in the marriage. Well, all marriages have problems of some kind at some point. So should we all just cheat? Sorry, but the marriage vows include "for better or for worse", "in sickness and in health" and "for richer or for poorer" - all 3 of these cover things that could be missing from the marriage.

When you make those vows, you are promising to "forsake all others" - as in NOT to have an affair, despite the fact that bad things do and will happen in your life together. So an affair doesn't just "happen" because something is missing. An affair happens when the WS breaks their vows. Plain and simple.


Only if one decides to break their vows.

Originally Posted By: swan's song

Your post comes across as a person that beats their spouse because they did not take out the garbage make the bed the right. or has the cans in the pantry all facing in the same direction.

Hu's post:
See this is the drama I find funny from the more senior members here.

Why is this drama when you said your self that a ws cheats because his or her spouse is not up to par with keeping them happy, last time I looked it was not my Sig Other job to keep happy, it's my job to do so can he share his happiness in life with me? Yep and I should do the same sharing the joys and the pains that come my way.


Like BHHFSGuy said there are a lot of BS on here that chose not to cheat on their spouse even when their WS is living with the OP.
I'm sure that they had the opportunity to do so and yet they don't because they know it's not going to solved anything by sleeping with some one else something the WS has to figure out themselves in the long run

Tabby1:

From my impressions for reading the MB material is where I am getting my ideas. Maybe I am making all of this too black and white, which would not surprise me because I am from a IT background. I always look for the root cause of an issue not the fluff that can lead you too it. The fluff in these cases is the OP and the affair. To me the root cause for the affair is more important then the OP or the affair itself. Since learning about the whole emotional needs concept I better understand root causes of these issues.

I did not say the BS is solely responsible there is plenty of blame to go around. Most of the blame lies with the WS, but the OP just seems to be the easy target. The OP is just the opportunist that took the invitation.

Your is the most rational reason I have seen for blaming the OP. But I see past your reasoning back to the root cause of the problems that belong with the WS/BS. If find the whole drama of the OP to be a waste of resources that could be better spent on fixing the root causes.

Vows like any promise are not worth relying on. If I would've know how hard marriage was going to be when I got married I would've tried and communicated better then I have. Actions are what keep a marriage together not some silly set of words.


CV55:
Your right about the taking responsibility in making the marriage vulnerable. Will never say that the BS is totally responsible, because they are not. I am not arguing that. I am arguing the whole idea of morals and the OP. Sorry but the "predatory OP" you mention does not exists. Sure you can be chased, but unless there is interest and neglect being chases is like having a 12 year old interested in you. Your just not interested.

The whole notion of people growing up?? Oh come on! What we out grow our emotions except those approved by our spouse?


Everyone:
I am not defending affairs, which seems to be the impression a lot of you have. My beef is with the notion of morals and the OP. Morals do not play into the thinking of the OP, opportunity does. The OP supplies the opportunity that matches the interest and neglect the WS has. Then emotions will override ANY and ALL morals you have.

Happy never mentioned "happy" that is such a relative term it is not funny. It your job as a spouse to keep your mate interested to the point they are not interested in someone else. When you are both interested in each other guess what you do get happiness (whatever you define that as).

Again if you took a BS and gave them the right OP, the right opportunity etc... they would. Everyone wants to feel love. Which may not involve sleeping with anyone.

OP are not to blame for any of these affairs. They are just an easy target for blame. Because to not blame the OP requires you to look at yourself and your spouse to determine what went wrong. Self reflection is painful and sucks, so people naturally take the easy way which is to blame the OP.

Ahhh, that explains it ! (sorry, that's a cheap shot I know!)


I completely agree with this rationale. However, emotionally, I hate my Wstbx's OW anyway for reasons I stated earlier.


I think you are combining 2 things into 1. Here lies the difference. (1) there are problems in the marriage. (2) one spouse decides to have an affair because of (1). Issue (1) may have many possible solutions that normally require both spouses to work on. Issue (2) happens when one spouse unilaterally decides to break their vows. They use Issue (1) to justify their actions but in reality, it is a completely separate thing.


Thanks. Perhaps my drama regarding the OP is a waste but honestly it takes no energy for me to hate Wstbx's OW. It would take way more energy to try to forgive her and that's not something I have the time, energy or motivation to do. I do realize it's fruitless but that doesn't change how I feel.


The whole idea of marriage is based on vows and promises. If they are not worth relying on, then it's not worth getting married.


Who says a faithful spouse has never been interested when somebody else has shown in them? Have you never been flattered by a compliment before? Have you never been flattered that someone was interested in you? Have you never connected with someone on an intellectual level, really enjoyed the discussion only to find out later that they were actually flirting with you?
These things happen to everyone all the time, yet people aren't jumping into bed with the flatterer. A faithful spouse is faithful not because nobody ever shows interest but because their vows were important to them.


Again I agree that morals do not play into the thinking of the OP. If they had morals, they wouldn't jump at the opportunity. This is what separates us from the dog stealing the steak. It's also not entirely opportunity - some OP's make their openings and truly are predatory. But like you and I both agree on, the OP is unimportant anyway.

Emotions do not override my morals or those of truly faithful spouses. This is what makes them faithful.

Well i can tell you that i have always stopped dating someone simply because after a time i realized they were not the person i wanted to be with and i never had any "waiting" when i broke up with them. As a matter of fact it was a long time before i dated anyone else after i broke up with a person from middle school on until i met my FWH.

And my FWHs A was very similar to CV55, it was losing his mother, turning 50, and the stresses of life in general. And though i know the the FOW did not "rape" my H, she constantly pursued him knowing full well that he was married and had three kids. He kept a family picture on his desk.

I have been told by more than one source at his company that she went after him BIG TIME. And like i said i certainly put more blame on my FWH than i do the FOW, i feel she has a part in his choice to have an A.

But i like CV55 will never accept responsibility for my FWHs A, he made those choices, i did not.

So, is it your assertion that when a single person get's involved with a person they know is married, that they are acting in a moral and just manner, so long as the married person is okay with it?


They have some responsibility. I mean, if nobody would ever date a married person, I'd bet there would be a lot less infidelity.

FWIW, I think many people mistake contempt for OP's as blaming them.

This is one statement I can agree with for sure. Contempt is understandable, blaming them though too many other factors involved.


Who's moral values? Yours or theirs? See that is the problem with morals they are too fluid a concept.

Have you ever spent any time at TOW web site?

Then you are ignoring the work of experts who have spent decades studying infidelity.

The reason is that EVERYONE is open to an affair, it is hardwired into our nature. If you have read some of Dr. Harley's books or listened to his radio show you'll know that is the point he makes: we are all wired that way. When our ENs are not being met in a M we are simply MORE LIKELY to have an affair. Even Dr. Harley has said that the subtitle 'How to Affair-Proof your Marriage' is not entirely accurate because there will still be people that have affairs even if their spouse is trying to meet their top ENs.

"Who's moral values? Yours or theirs? See that is the problem with morals they are too fluid a concept."

How about we use the word "integrity" instead of "morals"? Or maybe "right action" vs "wrong action". In affairs the WS and the OP are engaging in very deceitful, nasty behavior. In fact, most BSs, if not all, are so traumatized by an A that they experience PTSD symptoms. So I would say that lying, deceitful behavior is not only very wrong, but it also isn't walking on a path of integrity. I don't think there is any fluidity in any of these concepts. Would you say that raping a woman is a fluid concept? I'll take it down a notch. How about a man or women gets drunk,chooses to drive under the influence, the passenger with them is also drunk so doesn't take away the keys,and a child that is crossing the street is killed. Maybe we should blame that child for crossing the street at the exact time the fools in the car are driving by.

Life is about choices, and hopefully becoming aware enough that you start making good ones. Neither the WS or the OP is making good choices.

Only to criminals and wayward minds. our prisons are full of people with "fluid morals," and that is exactly where they belong!

"Tell me how many of you ever finished dating someone before you found someone else? Everyone finds someone else before they move on you learn that lesson from middle school on. To believe people turn that off once you get married is silly at best. That is why people become WH/WW or OM/WW. It is what you have done since you were 12. Forget the argument of people grow up, that is just as silly as putting faith in morals"

Er, actually, not me, nor my H. And I'm the FWW. The only person responsible for an A is the wayward person. Oh yes, I did all the blaming of my H in the world when I was first out of my A. My H, who was not responsible in any way whatsoever for my A.

Putting faith in morals? Most people do. Every day of their lives. An A is an immoral act in anyone's language. Even at my very foggiest I knew I had behaved immorally. Yes, I see myself as a moral person. I don't lie, cheat and steal in my real life but I sure as heck did when I was having an A. It was the step over that boundary that caused me to drink heavily and behave out of character. I couldn't reconcile my standards with my behaviour. Result - total misery.

I am also the OP to the OM's W. I intruded into their marriage and I am to blame for that. No one else. Just me.

It takes two to make a marriage and two to break a marriage.

I know I wasn't the perfect wife, but he wasn't the perfect husband either. But I didn't go out and cheat on him. I kept my vows. We had our problems. I was willing to work on them via counseling. He was not.

I think in today's world, a lot of people have to have instant gratification. If someone doesn't fit in with their lifestyle anymore, or if they aren't happy with them anymore, then they discard them like a ripped piece of underware and get another, instead of fixing what they have, they just bail.

No one deserves to be cheated on because the BS doesn't tickle the WS's fancy anymore. Work on the M, or get something called a D-I-V-O-R-C-E !!! An A is NEVER an option!!!!!!

I will NEVER blame myself for my ExH's A. He had a choice. If he wasn't happy in the M, he could have talked to me about it, gone to counseling or left me and D'd. He chose to have an A. That is something that is 100% his, not mine.

His OW, who is 18 years younger BTW, knew he was M'd and had kids. My ExH took my kids to lunch with her. At the time he told my kids that she was a "very good friend" of his. If he never did that, I probably would never have put 2 and 2 together and discovered his A. I had no clue he was cheating on me, he hid it quite well. She was M'd herself. And you say that morals do not have a role here?!!!

Sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree.

OP have no morals, because if they did, they would not go after married people to begin with. "If" she had to have my H so bad, then she should have kept her panties on until she and he were both D'd.

Same for my ExH. If he was not happy in the M, then he should have D'd me first, not cheat on me and my kids.

Sorry, but it really gets my blood to a boil when people have the nerve to say that OP played no role in the matter, "it just happened".

People have choices, things just don't "happen" You can always say "No, I'm M'd".

My ExH's OW knew he was M'd, had kids, but pursued him anyway. Sorry but if that is someone that had morals, then I'd like you to explain to me someone who doesn't have morals.

And please know that I feel the same way about my ExH. He knew she was M'd, but he pursued her anyway.

All I can say is that they are both scumbags and deserve each other.

No, this is what silly immature people do.


There's no way this person is for real. No one can be this clueless. I am going to assume this guy/gal is nothing but a joke.

It's Fog. Nothing but...

Mods, could you please move this thread to "other topics."

Done!

medc, you know as well as I do that this is for real. Good grief, it's textbook fog.

You know something - I refuse to write him off. Here on MB is a very good place for someone to start. If we write him off, how will he ever get to see the wisdom here.

No one wrote me off when I arrived here. I have a feeling if I arrived here now in the same state I was in then, I'd have been run off too.

Oh pooh!!

I know no such thing and have been here long enough to feel that I can recognize fog vs. bull pukey.

No one is asking you to write him off Jen. are they?

Moving this here is tantamount to writing him off.

Fog IS bull pucky. Everyone knows that.

I can pick a troll a mile off and this isn't a troll.

I don't think we'll see him back anyway.

That's your opinion Jen...I happen to disagree.

As far as moving it here...the topic no longer merited staying on GQII...so, as the author of the topic, I asked to have it moved. I think it was quite appropriate. If the mods disagree, they are certainly within their rights to move it back.

perhaps it would suit you well to use proper English before calling anyone else "stupid" for putting faith in morals. YOUR use of the word "your" is incorrect. You're sure to make a better impression with future insults if you use proper grammar.

Why is the simple answer for everyone here the "fog"??? Why cannot a different opinion just be that?

Sorry alot of what I keep reading here is dogma that goes against things I have been reading in HNHN. I started to read the book again and NO WHERE that I can find is there this assignment of blame to the OP. I find plenty on the WS and even some on the BS, but NONE on the OP.

Oh the last gasp of correcting grammar and spelling. Like other sites I go to when you really can't defend your position just pick on spelling and grammar.

HU,

The majority of your posts from various threads since you arrived here are to defend the OP. Why is that so important to you?

Jo

I answered that in the other thread also.

Basically for two reasons.

1) I find the focus on blaming the OP to be a waste of time. Since they are not the root cause of the situation.

2) I will admit I find topic that I find interesting and I like to discuss (some say argue) the accepted dogma. In the case of OP it is worth discussing. Since I am reading HNHN and I can't find anything where the author places blame on the OP. I do find words on blame towards WS and BS since they are ones with the marriage in trouble.

hu, of course the OP is to blame, that is just common sense. It takes 2 people to have an affair. The OP is to blame for climbing into bed with a married person.

And who is to say it is a "waste of time" to blame the OP? You? When someone has been knifed in the back by an OP, it is not a "waste of time" to blame the knifer, it is the reaction of a normal healthy psyche who has been knifed. It wouldn't be RATIONAL for a knifing victim to NOT blame their attacker. It would be extremely dysfunctional.


So what? I don't see the relevance of your statement.

I only hope and pray you don't say this kind of thoughtless, cruel nonsense to your wife. To try and convince her that she shouldn't blame someone who knifed her in the back is cruel, stupid and thoughtless. You and the OW did a terrible thing to your wife and you are both to blame. Trying to pretend the OW isn't to blame only adds insult to injury and is a form of GASLIGHTING.

Please quote me the EXACT QUOTE, page and paragraph, from HNHN where it says "don't blame the OP."

Thank you...

Again with the simple answers of the "fog" and "gaslighting".

The OP did not "knife" my wife in the back I DID!!!! All the blame resides with ME!!!! Blaming the OP is an easy way of coping.

What is the relevance of my statement? Since everyone here claims to be doing the MB principles but blaming OP is not a principle I can find.

See your answer is why I am discussing this topic. If the OP is not invited into the marriage then why are they even a topic for the recovery of one? The focus should be on the WS and the BS and no one else. That is simple logic to me, the problem started with the WS and the BS and therefore should end with them.

See that is thing there is NOTHING in the book about blaming the OP, that topic is NOT discussed. Seems that topic is only found here.

But I can give you the page, paragraph and sentence where is puts the blame on the WS and the BS. I will post it once I get home I forgot to bring it with me. But it is on the second page of dealing with an affair. Says something to the effect that the BS is to blame for allowing the WS love bank to degrade to the point where the WS was interested in an affair. But I will get you the exact quote later.

So, in other words you cannot produce a SINGLE quote that states that one should NOT blame the OP?


Blameshifting. The WS and the OP are 100% responsible for the affair.

You people want negative proof? So the argument you folks have is since the topic is NOT TALKED ABOUT there for it exists??


Really well then wait until I give you the quote because that is NOT what the book states. It clearly states the WS and BS are to blame.

Dr. Harley: "Let me add something to what I have already written to you. I hope I'm not being too redundant.

You will hear Joyce and I repeat, "there are reasons but no excuses." One of the reasons for an affair is that emotional needs are not being adequately met in marriage, which makes an affair that meets those needs more tempting. But the same thing can be said of some who rob banks. They may be out of work, need money to pay the rent, ask for a loan but are refused by the bank, which makes robbing it more tempting. One reason for the robbery is that the bank refused the loan, but it wasn't the bank's fault that it was robbed. On hindsight, a bank might have helped the robber get the help he needed through social services, but the bank is under no obligation to do so, even though they advertise that it is a "caring bank."

An affair is different from robbing banks in that a couple have promised to be more caring than banks. But the principle is the same. The lack of care by one spouse does not excuse harmful behavior by the other spouse. Even when one spouse absolutely refuses to be affectionate, or to make love, or to talk intimately, or to join in recreational activities with the other spouse, it gives them no right to have those needs met by someone else of the opposite sex in an affair. They have the right to separate until the other spouse meets those needs, or even divorce when it becomes obvious that there will be absolutely no cooperation (there are many who strongly disagree with me on that point). But an affair is so cruel and so painful that nothing any one spouse does (including having an affair themselves) can justify the suffering that an affair causes.

Making a disgraceful act more tempting by someone is no excuse for that person committing the disgraceful act. Besides, in most marriages, there are times when emotional needs are not being met for reasons beyond anyone's control. That's why I recommend extraordinary precautions to help spouses avoid an affair. They are to not allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet their need for affection, or intimate conversation, or recreational companionship, or sexual fulfillment. When those needs are met, they deposit so many love units that you are likely to fall in love with that person, and make you hurt your spouse in the worst way possible. I hope that explanation helps.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

You are the one who is making the claim that since you can't find it in the book, THEREFORE, the OP should not be blamed.

THEREFORE, it is up to YOU to substantiate your assertion that the OP should not be blamed with an EXACT QUOTE.

Chapter and verse please.

Somebody is looping for loopholes in the Bible, isn't he?

Could it be THIS QUOTE?

Here is Dr. Harleys clarification of that quote. I think you need to read this carefully:


Dr. Harley
Member


Registered: 11/16/00
Posts: 2070

MelodyLane: Let me add something to what I have already written to you. I hope I'm not being too redundant.

You will hear Joyce and I repeat, "there are reasons but no excuses." One of the reasons for an affair is that emotional needs are not being adequately met in marriage, which makes an affair that meets those needs more tempting. But the same thing can be said of some who rob banks. They may be out of work, need money to pay the rent, ask for a loan but are refused by the bank, which makes robbing it more tempting. One reason for the robbery is that the bank refused the loan, but it wasn't the bank's fault that it was robbed. On hindsight, a bank might have helped the robber get the help he needed through social services, but the bank is under no obligation to do so, even though they advertise that it is a "caring bank."

An affair is different from robbing banks in that a couple have promised to be more caring than banks. But the principle is the same. The lack of care by one spouse does not excuse harmful behavior by the other spouse. Even when one spouse absolutely refuses to be affectionate, or to make love, or to talk intimately, or to join in recreational activities with the other spouse, it gives them no right to have those needs met by someone else of the opposite sex in an affair. They have the right to separate until the other spouse meets those needs, or even divorce when it becomes obvious that there will be absolutely no cooperation (there are many who strongly disagree with me on that point). But an affair is so cruel and so painful that nothing any one spouse does (including having an affair themselves) can justify the suffering that an affair causes.

Making a disgraceful act more tempting by someone is no excuse for that person committing the disgraceful act. Besides, in most marriages, there are times when emotional needs are not being met for reasons beyond anyone's control. That's why I recommend extraordinary precautions to help spouses avoid an affair. They are to not allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet their need for affection, or intimate conversation, or recreational companionship, or sexual fulfillment. When those needs are met, they deposit so many love units that you are likely to fall in love with that person, and make you hurt your spouse in the worst way possible. I hope that explanation helps.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

No that is not the quote.

HU, you misunderstand what Harley tells us. The WS and BS are responsible for the STATE of the marriage which could have made the affair possible. The WS AND the OP are the two sole responsible parties for choosing (the CHOICE) to have an illicit affair.

The BS is in no way shape or form responsible (or to blame) for the affair. That was a CHOICE the WS and OP made.

Jo

I was asking about your morals. My point being that if you think it is okay to date married people, then the rest of the debate is merely fluff.

My other question was related to assigning responsibility. I find it difficult to believe you would assign zero responsibility for the A to the OP. I mean after all, they could have chosen not to engage in the activity. Unless, of course, you're asserting that people do not have free will. Which, again, if you are, then the rest of the debate is merely fluff.

IMHO, these two points come together. I say this since "blame" is usually associated with indicating responsibility (whether full or partial) for a harmful or incorrect action. If you believe dating married people is neither harmful nor incorrect, or believe people are unable to chose their actions, then there is no blame. Aside from that, then the OP's have earned some blame.

Whether assigning that blame to the OP has any benefit to recovery is a different topic. I think it does, but others opinions may vary.

Tell you what LovingAnyway gave the best reason to dislike the OP and one I cannot argue with. To prove you are on team marriage.

That is the best non-emotional reason I have heard and one that is simple and true.

We need to speak to your wife, hu. Can you send her to GQ11 and have her look me up?

I think your defence of the OP is quite interesting Hu.

I think some of what you say is partially right. The OP can be a soft target for assigning blame but that is actually quite productive at first as it deflects the anger of the BS away from the (hopefully) repentant WS.

But of course the OP is just as responsible for the affair as the WS - it's just that to the BS, the OP is really irrelevant. It was the WS who made promises to the BS to love and honour and cherish, not the OP. But the OP is just as guilty as the WS.

Eventually in recovery, focus moves away from the OP as they really are irrelevant.

I agree with Mel - please bring your BS to MB.

Hu, what you don't seem to be getting is that it is VERY important for the BS's recovery and, really, that is the only recovery you need to be concerned about, to hear that the OP means NOTHING to the WS. Defending the OP, saying the OP wasn't at fault, saying it has "nothing to do with the OP" is tantamount to saying that the OP was a great person and, if only circumstances had been different, you'd be with them now.

You just don't seem to understand that saying that is like sticking in the knife, twisting it around, taking it out, then sticking it in again.

It is IMPORTANT, really, really important to the BS that you negate the OP. It is one of the biggest steps forward that a WS makes. I don't think you realise quite what it means to a BS.

After my A, I said to my H that he had liked the OM before, that he'd thought he was a great guy. I said he still is, he hasn't changed. (Yes, I said things like that when I was totally foggy.)

I couldn't believe the look of horror on my H's face. He said, that was before he f***ed my wife. The OP is the enemy, the enemy of the marriage, the enemy of recovery.

Hu, if you were my husband, I would be highly offended that you want to let OW off the hook. I would be very suspicious that you are still "in luuuuvvvv" with the "wonderful OW" and trying to play the "noble knight" so she can be the "innocent damsel in distress".

I would probably kick you out on your butt until you could admit that she acted the wh0re same as you did.

I have more to say, even though I seem to type in invisible font.

You say that the OP is not in the equation. You say that you are 100% responsible. Yes, you are 100% responsible but you are wrong that the OP is not in the equation.

I can almost see your thought processes. You think because the A is "over" and the OW is "gone" that's all that matters. The wonderful, sainted OW can live on in your memory. (sarcasm, extreme sarcasm there).

That is NOT all that matters to your BW. Do you not understand that the BS obsesses about the OP? They wonder if they match up, they wonder if you did different sexual acts, they wonder what was lacking in them to make you look at another person. They question their worth, their attractiveness, their whole life. For the BS, it is ALL ABOUT the OP.

My H will still punch the OM in the nose if he ever sees him. My A was 6 years ago. You just cannot remove the OP from the equation.

I am so confused by this "OP is not responsible for the consequences of their actions" argument. Why, because you find yourself so overwhelmingly attractive or something? We all know charismatic people, but choose not to lower our values for them.

If you embezzled products from your work, and a friend fenced them, sold them for you, knowing it was stolen merchandise, you would both be arrested. Your friend couldn't say, I didn't work for that company, so I had no responsibility to them. No, of course you would both be held accountable for your actions.

[/quote] The OP did not "knife" my wife in the back I DID!!!! All the blame resides with ME!!!! Blaming the OP is an easy way of coping. [/quote]

Hu-
I have just spent a couple hours reading your posts. YOU sound EXACTLY like my WH... I just want to let you know that our situations are VERY similar. I want to tell you that "YES! the B@#$^ that you were sleeping with DID knife your wife in the back." YOU BOTH DID! Blaming the OW is NOT an easy way of coping. My pain is bearly tolerable some days but I keep plugging away, doing things and acting the way my WH thinks they should be done to recover our marriage. But what about my feelings in all of this? Why shouldn't I HATE the OW for what she contributed to. The OW KNEW that the man she was seeing was MARRIED but continued to see him for years. I grieve, I cry, and I scream alone so that my WH will not be hurt from MY pain. I feel soooo sorry for your wife. She is trying right now to make things right. Probably doing EVERYTHING to please you. I can't wait until you see her rage, it will come. How DARE you defend the B@#$^ that helped to cause her pain. THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE NEEDS RIGHT NOW!!!! She needs to know, and you need to prove to her, that the OW will never again be an important part of your life. YOU and your OW kicked your wife when she was down and YOU are still kicking her by defending the immoral B@#$^. So let the OW take half the blame for F@#$%^& over YOUR family and inflicting so much pain on the woman that you profess to love.

So if you've been here for a while, what type of love busting behavior is calling or judging another person to be stupid?

It's one thing to disagree, it's another to verbally attack those who disagree with you.

I will not attack you, but I'll tear into your arguments.
My behavior, or anyones behavior doesn't define what is moral and what is immoral. After all, didn't your mother ask you about jumping off a cliff if your friends are doing it.

Besides, there is much to learn from those who jump off the cliffs and live to tell about it. So even if it's wrong to start dating someone while still dating another (and you make an invalid assumption that anyone has actually done that) that anyone here has or hasn't done that is irrelevant to it being right or wrong.
Really? Everybody? So if I find one person who didn't do this, the foundation of your argument is shattered.

Welcome to the one who will shatter your foundation. I have never started dating another while still dating a previous when I was dating EXCLUSIVELY. I have casually dated and was upfront when doing that that I was not looking to exclusively date. If they were not OK with that, that was fine by me.

If we mutually decided to take dating to an exclusive level, I dated exclusively, period.

There are folks who actually will live by a moral code and not just do what the world is doing.
Well, if you think the world works that way, I hope that works for you. Frankly, I would not even be friends with someone who appears to be as jaded as you seem to be.
Let's define which mess before I agree or disagree. It's clear from Dr Harley's writings that both spouses share responsibility for the state of the marriage.

However, Dr Harley himself says there is no excuse for an affair. NONE! That would include blaming the BS for the selfish choice to engage in an affair.

So the decision to take that course of action is entirely the responsibility of those who choose to engage in an affair. The BS is NEVER responsible for a decision made by another person.

Blame shift! People are responsible for their own behavior, period. If their marriage is so bad, they should work on it, or end it well in advance of even looking.

The people who do not do this have no one to shift the blame for these hurtful actions upon. They are the lone responsible adult in charge of their personal behavior.

No spouse can decide for another to have or not have an affair.

Basically, it's the follow your heart crap, and don't be concerned about who you might hurt.

BTW, what they are doing is not love, but lust. Love is the sort of thing that is the polar opposite of cheating. If you are having sex with someone who is not your spouse, there is no way you are "in love" Love is something completely different and it's sickening that folks would call something so dirty and sordid as an affair, "love."

That ranks right up there with ethnic cleansing, or the final solution in terms of bending and twisting words beyond comprehension to justify hurtful, sinful behavior.

Everyone has their price. It's my job as a spouse to protect my wife by setting the price so high and being so selective, that I only accept offers from my wife.

It is my job to place such a value on my wife that no others measure up.

In other words, everyday I take steps to make sure I'm not tempted by others. Even if we are having an issue, it's my job to protect her and the marriage and not be "open to offers" from others.

I'm a buy and hold investor. I don't buy stocks and then sell them days later.

The same with my wife. I don't take one now, but look for a better deal later. I make sure I'm getting and giving a good deal to my wife.

I'm in IT as well. Been doing it for 25 years now. Met the guy who invented ethernet and worked on one of the original FTPD servers in college what seemed to be 100 years ago, not to mention packet switched voice in the late 1980's early 1990's before it was a big buzz.

Just so you know you are not dealing with an intellectual lightweight who is easily intimidated.

So I can also compartmentalize very well, which means I'll buy what your are selling, but only if it's packaged correctly.

Currently, you have a lot of things right, as far as I can tell, but I don't think your filesystem is coherent at this time.

You are mixing data about the state of the marriage with data about the affair.

While the affair impacts the marriage the state of the marriage can NEVER CAUSE an affair.

On one hand, you are arguing that the state of the marriage CAUSES the affair, or is responsible for the spouse choosing an affair.

On the other, you say everyone has their price.

There is a contradiction here. Because if everyone has their price, there is no way to prevent an affair. Their is nothing I can do as a spouse to prevent someone from offering that price.

So either you are not correct about everyone having their price, or you are not correct about a spouse being able to prevent others from meeting that price threshold.

If everyone has their price, Dr Harley's work on meeting emotional needs and protecting the marriage is worthless.

(Which then begs the question, why are you here if this is so worthless?)

So I'm not buying what you are selling with regard to responsibility for the affair. You are engaging in a blame-shift where the victim of a crime is blamed for the crime.

Dr Harley equates affairs with rape. No one deserves to be raped, ever. Not even if they are dressed in a provocative manner. As a society, we rightfully reject the arguments of rapists who claim that the victim asked for it. That the rape was partially her fault for being in the wrong place, or dressing in a fashion where he could not control himself.

We lock such folks up if they cannot control themselves.

Yet folks are arguing that those who engage in affair can shift the blame for choosing an affair upon their spouse because of a failure to meet emotional needs.

Bzzt. Wrong answer. This sort of rape of the marriage and family is just as inexcusable, period.

You have nothing on me with regards to Black and White thinking. Affairs = ALWAYS WRONG. Affairs = RESPONSIBILITY of Participants, ONLY! BS has ZERO responsibility for WS's affair.

Doesn't get more black and white than that.
Or OP gave an invitation. Who knows. The BS responsibility = 0. Not more, not less, exactly zero.
I don't blame the OP, other than for choosing to engage in selfish behavior. While the OP may not know the one they are sleeping with is married, they certainly know they are not married to their partner. So they own their part in this little sinfest.
I wouldn't call the words silly. But I do agree that the actions mean far more than words. The actions of one who chooses to have an affair are far more powerful than any words they've spoken.

The thing is, actions are born from thoughts. And everyone thinks in words as far as I can tell. So meditating on what you've vowed to do, and then doing it is far more powerful than just living by chance.

The only one who can make my words worthless is me. My wife cannot render my words worthless, nor can you. Not even my former wife can do this, and she is very good at destroying things, LOL.
When we grow up, we consider the emotions of others and not only our own. For those who choose affairs, one could make the case that they are not emotionally mature, because a healthy, emotional adult doesn't engage in behaviors that are hurtful to others.

They may from time to time accidentally hurt. But they also care enough to apologize and learn from their mistakes.

I think those who engage in affairs CAN do this as well if they want to.

If they don't want to, I'd argue they are not healthy emotional adults, but children trapped in big, hormone filled bodies.

Then I guess you've not met many ESTJ's (MB type indicator personality types, very similar to Mr Spock!) There are quite a number of personality types that use emotion as a secondary or even tertiary means of deciding a course of action. Reason, logic and ethics are valued before emotion by many, including myself.

I think you read wrong with respect to the BS. Dr Harley is clear not to blame the BS for the choices of the cheating spouse.

He does say that not meeting needs puts a marriage at more risk. However, to say that this is blaming the BS is not accurate.

I would agree that Dr Harley doesn't blame the OP in what he writes.

I think this is two-fold. First, the more attention placed on the OP, the more the WS is encouraged to think about the good attributes of the WS. Second, Dr Harley's focus is on enticing the WS back to the marriage. One cannot really do that by focusing on the OP.

Actually, the only time the OP really comes into play is if plan B is put into place, and then the WS gets ZERO EN's met by the BS and the OP has to step up and meet all those needs.

Dr Harley knows that few OPs can do this and the affair is likely to die. There is the addition of LB's by the OP when they are expected to meet more needs as well.

There are exceptions of course.

But the OP is not a major factor in recovering the marriage and little focus is placed upon the OP, for good reason.

Here is what Dr Harley told me:

It's funny, but I used to hear the same crap off of criminals. They would say..."IF she had just let go of the purse, I would not have had to shoot, beat, stab etc..." If the victim did everything that the "criminal" (adulterer) wanted...well, then they wouldn't have had to do ...

Affairs are 100% the fault of the WS and the OP...100% of the time (the ONLY exception is if the WS lies to the OP about his/her marital status...in these cases, the OP is also a victim of the dirt-bag WS and not really an OP).

medc,
Do you really think that's 100% true? That if the WS lies to the OP that they are completely innocent in it all? Don't you think that there would be some clues somewhere that the OP is choosing not to see to convince themselves that everything is on the up and up? My WH told the OW that he wasn't married or was divorced. There were plenty of signs that he WAS married and I feel like the OW chose to IGNORE them.

I think an OP is never 100% clueless.

Otherwise, I totally agree with what you said.

I'm pretty sure that even if the OP doesn't know the WS is married, 100% of them know they are not married to the man or woman they are sleeping with.

So the I didn't know garbage of any OP means nothing. They know they are not married to their partner and that makes them in the wrong right there.

Egg-zak-lee!

S&C

Probably not going to be a popular point of view, but thanks for standing with me here.

There is no way that a BS is ever going to buy into the notion that the OP carries no blame for contributing to the hurt that has been heaped on them. OP's don't break vows to the BS, but they ignore the rules of common decency at the very least.

Here is why the WS’s recognition of the OP's responsibility in the affair is important to recovering a marriage. First, as has been stated, blaming the BS and exonerating the OP sends a message to the BS that the WS's loyalty still rests with the OP. Second, if a WS is unable to recognize how the OP was upping the bid to meet his price (or even understood that he was on the auction block) then how can the WS put in place the necessary precautions to protect his BS in the future? Finally, if a WS is unwilling to see the truth of the OP’s character, then that WS will always be comparing the reality of his BS to the fantasy he carries of the OP. Reality rarely measures up to fantasy.

If a WS truly accepts that their behavior was wrong, then how on earth can they claim that the OP, who was doing the exact same thing, was not also wrong and just as culpable for any destruction caused as a result of the relationship?

The BS was not responsible for the affair. The OP was not responsible for the state of the marriage, but the OP certainly is responsible for being an accomplice in compounding the trouble within the marriage.

Exodus,
I would LOVE you to post that on my thread

If that was what I had said, you would have a valid argument.

I clearly said that Dr Harley doesn't focus on the BS.

For marriage building, the WORST thing to do is to focus on the OP.

I never said the OP wasn't responsible, their actions didn't hurt, etc.

Dr Harley simply doesn't focus on the OP, other than if plan B is in order, then the OP has to step up and meet all needs and has more opportunity to LB.

None of what I've said contradicts the truth of what you say.

LU... was looking for documentation in Dr Harley's books about hating the OP. It's a fruitless exercise if you wish to rebuild your marriage, and is likely to lead one to an LB.

So I think it's best to put the OP out of your mind. The goal is to build a marriage, not plant a seed of hate in your life.

EE, I had no disagreement with what you posted. I just clicked on the nearest "reply" button to respond to the thread's theme. I apologize for the confusion.

That's all well and nice for you...and others that subscribe to the same thinking...

BUT...

What if no intercourse was involved...what if they just kissed and went out on dates???

What if the OP was truly clueless...I HAVE been out on dates with a married woman in the past...I NEVER knew and when I did...well, let's just say things got a bit ugly.



So...all people need to subscribe to your line of thinking on this or they are wrong? Think about what you are saying. You are equating a person that goes out on dates while NOT married to an adulterer. That is pitiful.



not everyone believes as you do about premarital sex. That doesn't make them low life adulterers.

Well, IF I were married and met a woman...and told her I was single and available...fooled her...she is blameless. Look how long WS are able to fool the people closest to them...those that know them best...it would be exponentially easier to fool someone you do not live with and have limited interactions with. So, yes...I do think a person can be totally in the dark about this. IF they have knowledge and still continue with the WS...their fault is obvious. We cannot condemn a person for being tricked.

When I was in the Army, this sort of thing happened a lot. I'd meet a woman and get to know her, and then something didn't seem right.

She'd be married and her husband deployed.

So I'm glad I was not having sex with any of these folks.

I can't say that I followed the rules about no sex before married when I was in my 20's. But being older and wiser, I see the wisdom in following such a rule today.

Of course, it doesn't really matter. My first wife and I didn't have sex with one another before we married. Didn't really stop her from having an affair.

We'll see how it turns out this time around.

I don't expect everyone to enthusiastically embrace this way of thinking. But I do think the very situation we're talking about here is one of the reasons for such a rule.

It makes a good case for adopting such a rule in one's life.

However, I still don't buy the totally clueless excuse. Sleeping with someone is pretty serious and can have some pretty serious consequences. So wouldn't it be best if you checked your partner out BEFORE hopping in the sack?

That's a pretty big thing to no know about the person you are sleeping with.

And if they are lying about it, wouldn't you want to know before you became emotionally and physically involved with them?

They may not know. But ignorance is seldom an excuse. What if he/she had AIDS instead of being married.

Ignorance can be fatal!

Just to keep things clear, the issue was NEVER "focusing" on the OP, but BLAMING the OP for her crimes against the BS. HU does not believe his OW should be blamed by his BS for her part in the affair, but believes the BS should be blamed because she did not meet the WS needs and made him have an affair. No one has ever said that she should focus on the OP at the exclusion of marital recovery.

HU believes that his the OWH should not blame HIM and that his BS should not blame the OW. THAT is the issue.




But of course a normal person is going to despise someone who slept with their husband and knifed her in the back. Any decent, mentally healthy person will hate injustice. That is a sign of decency. Anger at being assaulted in such a manner is a HEALTHY response.

I'm clear.

I was just saying Dr Harley doesn't talk much about the OP because frankly the marriage is not about the OP, so there really isn't much for him to say.

hu7668 indicated he was looking for some instruction from Dr Harley to blame the OP.

I agree with him, it's not there. That doesn't mean the OP shares no blame. Dr Harley just doesn't waste his time talking about someone who can do nothing to help the marriage, except by being in a state of perpetual NC.

So Dr Harley not saying anything one way or another about blaming the OP is meaningless.

If this guy is really an IT profession, he should know that logically speaking, just because something is not seen, doesn't mean it's not there.

Just because I don't see a fault in a computer system, all that proves is that I've not see the fault. So just because he's not seen where Dr Harley puts blame on the OP is no indication there is no blame to be shared by the OP.

Personally, I think he doesn't because it's pointless to blame the OP. It keeps the OP part of the discussion, which goes against what NC is all about.

One wants the memory of the OP to fade away. This can't happen if the BS is harboring anger and obsessed with the OP.

This is one of the few things I agree with from hu7668. It does NO GOOD to focus on the OP if you are marriage building.

They own blame, big deal. If you are MB'ing, you have bigger issues than apportioning blame to the OP.

Not to mention it's likely to open you up to LB'ing, and that is NOT good for the marriage.

That's all I'm saying.

Right, but that was never the issue. And that is not what hu7668 is saying. The issue is blame, not focusing on the OP at the exclusion of marital recovery. What WILL interfere with recovery is if my WS tells me that I cannot blame an OP who just knifed me in the back but that I AM responsible.

Even so, OF COURSE there will be focus on the OP by the BS. It would be ridiculous to expect otherwise. Do we tell the rape victim "oh, don't blame him!! don't ever focus on your rapist, it interferes with your recovery!" That would be nuts. psychoville. Betrayed spouses do tend to focus on their rapists, but that is more likely to contribute to their recovery, rather than IMPEDE IT. Working on recovery and having a HEALTHY RESENTMENT against your rapist are not mutually exclusive practices.

Show me a WS who does not take accountability for their crimes against the OP spouse and I will show you someone who is NOT in recovery. Not even close..

He was looking for ways to shut up board members from blaming OPs and using the fact that Dr Harley doesn't say "blame the OP" to achieve that end. He doesn't believe the OP should be blamed because HE does not hold himself responsible for his crimes against the OWH. He is protecting his OW. He is not asking this to achieve recovery, but to silence blamers.

To me it's just like the do you want to be right, or do you want to be married question.

I think in his own, twisted way, he's stumbled on to a truth.

His motives are suspect, as a WS, no doubt. But the kernel of truth is that it is fruitless to dwell on blaming the OP.

Many here DO EXACTLY that. I did that when I was still married to my now former wife.

It did absolutely nothing to restore the marriage. It was wasted emotional energy.

So you are 100% correct they own some blame.

But for anyone MB'ing to focus on this is counter productive to MB'ing.

This is the assessment I see that hu7668 is making.

I know folks who were raped and the best thing for them was when they no longer saw images of their attacker in their dreams and in the faces of folks around them.

It doesn't happen overnight, and the anger for the OP will not dissipate overnight either.

But I don't agree that it does any good when it comes to MB'ing.

It doesn't do any good to stuff it down either. So it has to come out and be processed in a healthy manner. And if one is trying to MB, that's an admittedly difficult task.

But the OP has to "go away" for both the WS and the BS for complete recovery. Not just physically, but emotionally as well. For both!

The OP will never "go away" for either. Both the WS and the BS will always carry their memories of the OP. The key is understanding eveyone's role in the situation so precautions can be put in place to avoid repeating mistakes. HU's unwillingness to consider that the OP contributed to the affair or his wife's pain makes it hard for him to understand his own vulnerabilities or really empathize with his wife's pain and how the other woman impacts her.

I read on another thread where a poster was given an assignment by Steve Harley to think of any possible situation where the OP might show up and how she would handle that situation. In other words, establish extraordinary precautions. That doesn't sound like ignoring the OP in recovery. How can HU establish those precautions if he doesn't even see the OP as a factor in the equation?

Again, that is not the issue. He is not interested in recovery at all, he is interested in running protection for his OW and avoiding accountibility for his crimes against the OWH.

I don't agree that its "fruitless" to dwell on someone who just raped you and tried to destroy your family. It only becomes a problem when it impedes recovery or causes the victim to be so angry that they act out, which is the rare exception.

To force oneself to not think about the rapist is counterproductive and very dysfunctional. A person who has been assualted in this way will be obsessed with the assaulter for some time. That is how normal recovery evolves. Over time the resentment and hatred diminish. This is part of the grief process. Having feelings of resentment is a normal, healthy reaction.

Mrs Z seems to understand the impact the OP had on her husband.

Excellent points, Exodus!

I would also add that Steve Harley and Dr Harley have never told a BS, to my knowledge, that they should STUFF normal feelings of resentment towards the OP. While the OP is to be kept out of sight, it would be unrealistic to imagine that the OP could be kept out of mind.

But the bottom line is that any healthy normal person can and should BLAME the OP for his/her crimes against them. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

We are NOT discussing the morality or lack thereof of premarital sex...AND NOT ALL DATING OR INFIDELITY INVLOVES SEX. We are talking about the morality or culpability of the OP. Can you dispute what I have said about the WS being able to fool those closest to him and how that pales in comparison to their ability to fool another person???

Whenever I see a WS defend the OP, it tells me that they have a self esteem problem. They derive their self worth from what others think of them and if the OP, who thought so highly of them, is not a good and worthwhile person, then it destroys their self esteem.

The chain is "OP is good, OP likes me, so I must be good". Rather then address the later connection (OP likes me, so I must be good), which is the unhealthly part. They attempt to bolster the first connection (OP is good, OP likes me).

Deriving your self worth from what other people think of you is unhealthy because it tends to make people unauthentic and its not sustainable.

I imagine people who defend OP's who know their AP is married have already concluded that the OP is not a good person (or at the very least a person acting in a bad way). They just can't face what they translate that into and what it says about themselves. Which is "OP is bad, OP likes me, so I must be bad."

I would guess when people like this stumble in to a community that has generally accepted that OP's are not a wholesome bunch, it stings. They feel compelled to defend OP. They mask it as not being part of recovery, or relevent, but in the end, all the really want is for people to say "yeah, OP's are a fine bunch." That way, they can keep their self esteem in tact.

medc,
I can see that. I think once you've gone through it though, your suspicion radar is alot higher.

The only time that I would have respect for an OP would be if they RAN AS FAST AS THEY COULD from the WS once they found out.

And I'm sure you chased that woman off! I can only imagine.

Just to be clear...I DO believe that OP are not good people. I think they are scum suckers that deserve every bit of scorn that comes their way. People can change for the better...but while they are knowingly having an affair with another person's spouse, they are pond scum.

FWIW,

I'd like to remind folks that I was the BS, not the wayward spouse. I worked with Steve Harley.

Not once did he say to focus, examine or perform any kind of exercise that was about the OM.

His focus was on two things, my eliminating any LB's and my trying to make deposits in my WW's Love Bank.

I don't deny the emotional aspects and judgments about an OP's behavior.

I would not argue against such perceptions being wrong or inaccurate.

My point is, it's a fruitless exercise. It's wasted energy. And, if taken to an extreme, it can damage your marriage if you being to LB as a result of having your buttons pushed dwelling on the OP.

That's all I'm saying.

Should hu.... defend his OP? Of course not.

But wouldn't it be better if he were to focus his energy on how he's hurt his wife, rather than defending the OP? Of course!

If his wife were to attack the OP in his presence, there is a chance he'll come to her defense.

If she were to talk to him about his behavior, and only his behavior, and not giving much if any credit for her behavior, then there is no wiggle room for the WS.

For any BS to focus on the OP just gives the WS a chance to either make excuses or defend.

Leave the OP out of it. NC includes not even bringing up the fact there was an OP in my opinion. It's all about the WS's behavior. Nothing else matters.

If the WS doesn't correct his/her behavior, who the OP is is meaningless. There could be a whole string of OP's.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not saying one is wrong to be mad at the OP.

I'm saying if allowed to become an obsession, it will block any potential recovery.

EE, this misses the point again. You worked with Steve on marital recovery steps, not personal recovery. Blaming the OP is a matter of personal recovery. One must blame the OP and deal with their resentment in order to recover. Steve does not work with couples on personal recovery. It makes no sense to say that one shouldn't BLAME the rapist just because it never came up in your exercises.

I assure you that Steve would NEVER tell a BS to "not blame the OP" for the harm she/he committed. That would be ridiculous.

Simply put, a normal, healthy person will blame their rapist and it will take time to deal with the resentment. Nowhere do the Harleys EVER say that one shouldn't BLAME the OP or feel a natural resentment towards them.

EE, denying natural, healthy feelings is not healthy and will only impede recovery. It is dysfunctional and does nothing to serve a healthy recovery.


No, it would be irrational and not conducive to mental health to "leave the OP out of it." I sort of doubt we would tell a rape victim that she should "leave the rapist out of it." That would be silly.

And no one here has suggested that any BS bring up the OP to the WS. Again, NOT THE ISSUE!

medc,

You just love to argue don’t you?

EE simply meant that if someone wasn’t married to someone else and was having sex with them they were already wrong, no need to take it further. No need to determine if the person they were having sex with was married or not. He spoke from his background as a Catholic. He spoke based on what God says about fornication in the Bible.

Now just so you don’t start another argument that not all people believe in Christianity, there are many other religions that frown on fornication and pre-marital sex. And for those that don’t have those morals well only time will tell.

Now for your need to be right about things…

You are right that just dating someone isn’t committing adultery. And not all dating involves sex. EE never said anything about that, you are twisting his words to instigate something. So you are free to continue dating. And yes it is possible that a person can fool (lie to) another about their marital status when accepting. However, I don’t think that EE even had a question about that. Sorry EE for speaking for you. I don’t even think that most posters disagreed with you about that. Maybe EE if you were to post something agreeing with medc on this one he’ll feel better.

Oh! And if I can disagree on one more thing… Personally I think that OP’s are not “pond scum” I think that they are actually the sticky stuff that holds the “pond scum” to the bottom of the pond.

Please continue with putting blame on the OP. Personally this is what I believe.

The BS has to accept blame for anything they did to help create a bad environment in the M. Rarely is there a case where the BS has zero blame. But I guess they could exist.

The WS is also to blame for anything they did to help create a bad environment in the M.

The WS is 100% to blame for their choice to have an A.

The OP is to blame for having an intimate relationship with a married person if they knew they were married.

The OP is to blame if the had sex with someone regardless of whether or not that person was married.

There is plenty of blame to go around when it comes to affairs.


Have a great day!

S&C

This is a marital recovery site.

So the advice I give and the observations I make are with respect to marital recovery.

I don't think I miss the point at all. The point of this place is marital recovery.

I'm dead on target, staying focused on marital recovery.

You may be right about personal recovery. Yet this is not a personal recovery site. Steve was concerned about my personal well being as well. He suggested I see a Dr if I felt suicidal, possibly getting on AD's.

So I wouldn't say SH was unconcerned with my personal recovery. He was concerned.

But you are right, I'm approaching this from a MB/marriage recovery perspective, and dwelling on the contribution of the OP is unlikely to contribute to a stronger marriage.

I've been clear that I'm speaking in that narrow perspective, and not in terms of personal recovery. I said nothing of personal recovery, as far as I can recall.

Actually, my ex-wife was Catholic, private school and all. Didn't seem to grow after being planted. She didn't seem to take the Sacrament of Marriage seriously. Or perhaps that is her "get out of jail card" since she can claim based on the churches teaching that she was not really married to me since it was not in the Catholic church, but in a Baptist ceremony. Perhaps it doesn't count for her. Who knows for sure?

I was baptist, poor and public school. Seemed to stick for the most part.

Not perfect, by any stretch.

FWIW.

Sorry about that EE. I stand corrected. Let me fix that.


"He spoke from his background as a Baptist."


S&C

Enlighted_Ex, I think its important to accept that a normal healthy person WILL blame her victimizer. Doing so does not impede recovery, but trying to pretend that the OP carries no blame is not healthy or rational. No BS should be asked to stuff their feelings and Steve Harley and Dr Harley have never asked any BS to stuff their normal,natural feelings in my 7 years of being here.

I don't think its a good idea to tell a rape victim they shouldn't blame their rapist anymore than I think its a good idea to tell a grieving BS they shouldn't blame their attacker. That helps no one.

When I was in therapy (imagine that) my therapist said your life is alot like driving. You tend to go where you are looking.

So if you focus on the OP, instead of focusing on where you want to be, you are unlikely to get where you want to be.

Maybe that doesn't work for everyone.

However, I think it works for most.

I can't tell you where or where not to look or to focus your energies. I can tell you I was advised to look at where I wanted to be and to focus my time, talent and treasure on that.

I believe the same is true regarding any sort of focus on the OP. It takes your eyes off of the real destination.

And to be clear, I've never said the OP doesn't deserve blame. I simply disagree with those who think apportioning blame to the OP is a fruitful exercise. I think it's a waste of time, as it takes the focus off of what was going on in the marriage and how a couple will navigate through recovery.

The OP rightfully deserves blame, but that blame does nothing to recover the marriage.

first off...screw you and your attitude of late.

Second, it wasn't me that was twisting the intent of the discussion. I made a comment about how people are fooled by WS at times and there are times when a person is an unknowing participant in an affair. EE responded to my post by saying that isn't true and gave his/her reasoning.

If you don't like where my thread is going, I suggest you get off of it. Trust me, I won't miss your input here.

me too


yeah, there was a swift response.

Let's be clear, shall we.

I didn't say they didn't know. I simply don't give them any slack for being ignorant of the facts.

Like I said, being ignorant can be deadly in todays world.

They may not know. But ignorance is seldom, if ever, a good excuse.

medc,



Not true medc. This is what he said...



He didn't say it wasn't true. Said he didn't buy it and that ignorance is seldom an excuse. See you're twisting words and putting words in people's mouth (post) that they didn't say and making an argument out of it.


Or you can just put me on ignore.

Have a nice day.

S&C

assumptions all around. Since this discussion was not about a religious perspective and the pitfalls of premarital sex....the comment about 100% of the people not being married to the person they are sleeping with was misplaced.


Good people have premarital relations...sorry to burst your bubble...there are good people that are not bound by religious perspectives and such. BUT, as I said before...not all affairs are sexual...so that is another reason this was misplaced.

I do see that I read something into the post that wasn't there...but as usual S & C...you are only trying to stir the pot even further.

medc,


I was simply trying to point out where you misread something (which has been known to happen sometimes). I didn't want you to look like an id10t and have your thread go off on some tangent away from the topic. Which you seemed to have recognized. Good for you!

EE point is still valid in the discussion. Having sex with someone's daughter before she is married is considered a no-no even to those that don't have a religious back ground. So if they paid attention to that, they would not even have to worry whether or not the person they were screwing was married or not. Even you have to agree that if a person didn't have sex with someone they would not need to worry whether or not they were married.

Whether or not someone that is "good" can have a pre-marital relations? We if you mean by a relationship you are correct good people can have a pre-marital. If you mean relations as in sex? Well that depends on your moral code. EE spoke from his and I guess you spoke from yours.


S&C

I find that quite an extraordinary remark but you are entitled to your opinion of course. Before you immediately think it's because I'm an FWW I "think" premarital sex is okay (which I do), my H who is the BS in our relationship has no problem with it either. In fact he had a heck of a lot of pm sex before we met as young people. I didn't.

My DD lives with her fiance and has done for 2 years. They are marrying in January next year. Her father and I have no problem whatsoever with her living arrangements. We are extremely happy for two very nice young people. Very nice and very good young people.

Jen,

Most religious people will disagree with you about pre-marital sex. Dr Harley would also disagree with you about "living in sin" before marriage - it dramatically decreases the chances of a happy marriage.

It is quite amazing that the moral code we live by while single seems to be thrown out to accommodate an affair though.

I thought the last dig was not really called for.

I don't even know why I responded really. Just the ridiculous thought of my dear, sweet daughter not being a "good" person I suppose.

I really don't want to get into this. I just wanted to say that my very dear, very moral H has no problem with his DD either.

I don't happen to think that PM sex is moral for me. I do not however feel compelled to judge others based on my beliefs regarding this subject.

I know a lot of good people...many that I call "friend" that do not agree with my beliefs about PM sex. Doesn't make them bad people.

THat wasn't a dig at you or any other FWS Jen. It's merely a statement of fact.


I made no judgement about good or bad, naughty or nice.


Our view on this would obviously differ and I'm not making any judgements about Rob either. A father is supposed to be the guardian of his daughters virginity.

I agree 100% MEDC.

Whether or not PM sex is moral, NOT having PM sex with your future spouse is like buying a car you haven't test-driven.

You might get lucky, but it's unwise at best.

No intelligent woman would marry some loser who required her to perform in bed like an unpaid wh*re before he married her. If he wants a good sex performance, he can go pay a hooker, because this lady doesn't put out for free.

Treating sex like a animalistic performance act instead of an act of love and passion misses the point entirely and relegates the sex act to nothing more significant than 2 jackrabbits getting it on. Great sex is a result of LOVE, RESPECT and PASSION, not some cheesy sex technique.

Any guy who ever said that to me would be shown the door. [after I kneed him in the groin]

Thank you for saying what I was looking for the words to convey. You said it so much more..uhmmm..eloquently.

Mel, you really need to break out of your shell and learn to express yourself!

ITA, tabby1. Thank you for clarifying.