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I am so confused by this "OP is not responsible for the consequences of their actions" argument. Why, because you find yourself so overwhelmingly attractive or something? We all know charismatic people, but choose not to lower our values for them.

If you embezzled products from your work, and a friend fenced them, sold them for you, knowing it was stolen merchandise, you would both be arrested. Your friend couldn't say, I didn't work for that company, so I had no responsibility to them. No, of course you would both be held accountable for your actions.


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[/quote] The OP did not "knife" my wife in the back I DID!!!! All the blame resides with ME!!!! Blaming the OP is an easy way of coping. [/quote]

Hu-
I have just spent a couple hours reading your posts. YOU sound EXACTLY like my WH... I just want to let you know that our situations are VERY similar. I want to tell you that "YES! the B@#$^ that you were sleeping with DID knife your wife in the back." YOU BOTH DID! Blaming the OW is NOT an easy way of coping. My pain is bearly tolerable some days but I keep plugging away, doing things and acting the way my WH thinks they should be done to recover our marriage. But what about my feelings in all of this? Why shouldn't I HATE the OW for what she contributed to. The OW KNEW that the man she was seeing was MARRIED but continued to see him for years. I grieve, I cry, and I scream alone so that my WH will not be hurt from MY pain. I feel soooo sorry for your wife. She is trying right now to make things right. Probably doing EVERYTHING to please you. I can't wait until you see her rage, it will come. How DARE you defend the B@#$^ that helped to cause her pain. THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE NEEDS RIGHT NOW!!!! She needs to know, and you need to prove to her, that the OW will never again be an important part of your life. YOU and your OW kicked your wife when she was down and YOU are still kicking her by defending the immoral B@#$^. So let the OW take half the blame for F@#$%^& over YOUR family and inflicting so much pain on the woman that you profess to love.

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Originally Posted by hu7668
Being a OW or OM has nothing to do with morals, frankly if you are placing all of your faith in morals to stop affairs your stupid.
So if you've been here for a while, what type of love busting behavior is calling or judging another person to be stupid?

It's one thing to disagree, it's another to verbally attack those who disagree with you.

I will not attack you, but I'll tear into your arguments.
Originally Posted by hu7668
Tell me how many of you ever finished dating someone before you found someone else?
My behavior, or anyones behavior doesn't define what is moral and what is immoral. After all, didn't your mother ask you about jumping off a cliff if your friends are doing it.

Besides, there is much to learn from those who jump off the cliffs and live to tell about it. So even if it's wrong to start dating someone while still dating another (and you make an invalid assumption that anyone has actually done that) that anyone here has or hasn't done that is irrelevant to it being right or wrong.
Originally Posted by hu7668
Everyone finds someone else before they move on you learn that lesson from middle school on.
Really? Everybody? So if I find one person who didn't do this, the foundation of your argument is shattered.

Welcome to the one who will shatter your foundation. I have never started dating another while still dating a previous when I was dating EXCLUSIVELY. I have casually dated and was upfront when doing that that I was not looking to exclusively date. If they were not OK with that, that was fine by me.

If we mutually decided to take dating to an exclusive level, I dated exclusively, period.

There are folks who actually will live by a moral code and not just do what the world is doing.
Originally Posted by hu7668
To believe people turn that off once you get married is silly at best. That is why people become WH/WW or OM/WW. It is what you have done since you were 12. Forget the argument of people grow up, that is just as silly as putting faith in morals.
Well, if you think the world works that way, I hope that works for you. Frankly, I would not even be friends with someone who appears to be as jaded as you seem to be.
Originally Posted by hu7668
I made a comment on another thread about responsibility to marriage and where to place blame. Seems a lot of people just want to blame the WH/WW or OM/OW ignoring the fact the BS has a part in the whole mess.
Let's define which mess before I agree or disagree. It's clear from Dr Harley's writings that both spouses share responsibility for the state of the marriage.

However, Dr Harley himself says there is no excuse for an affair. NONE! That would include blaming the BS for the selfish choice to engage in an affair.

So the decision to take that course of action is entirely the responsibility of those who choose to engage in an affair. The BS is NEVER responsible for a decision made by another person.

Originally Posted by hu7668
Since if the WH/WW was happy they never would've looked in the first place. Which is the WHOLE idea behind MB.
Blame shift! People are responsible for their own behavior, period. If their marriage is so bad, they should work on it, or end it well in advance of even looking.

The people who do not do this have no one to shift the blame for these hurtful actions upon. They are the lone responsible adult in charge of their personal behavior.

No spouse can decide for another to have or not have an affair.
Originally Posted by hu7668
People get caught up in emotions and opportunity, it is that simple. Throw love into the mix and the mess gets even deeper.

Basically, it's the follow your heart crap, and don't be concerned about who you might hurt.

BTW, what they are doing is not love, but lust. Love is the sort of thing that is the polar opposite of cheating. If you are having sex with someone who is not your spouse, there is no way you are "in love" Love is something completely different and it's sickening that folks would call something so dirty and sordid as an affair, "love."

That ranks right up there with ethnic cleansing, or the final solution in terms of bending and twisting words beyond comprehension to justify hurtful, sinful behavior.

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Originally Posted by hu7668
Originally Posted by BHHFSGuy
If you read SAA or Not 'Just' Friends you'll see how many, many affairs are not sought out at all.
Sorry doing believe in this either. Because there has to be a reason the person was open the affair in the first place. Sure a one night thing can be a "just happened" but an affair no way. For an affair to happen there was something missing from the marriage.

Originally Posted by BHHFSGuy
A BS can also be unhappy in a M and not cheat.

You give the right opportunity, interest and neglect and everyone has their price.

Originally Posted by swan's song
Your post comes across as a person that beats their spouse because they did not take out the garbage make the bed the right. or has the cans in the pantry all facing in the same direction.

See this is the drama I find funny from the more senior members here.


Everyone has their price. It's my job as a spouse to protect my wife by setting the price so high and being so selective, that I only accept offers from my wife.

It is my job to place such a value on my wife that no others measure up.

In other words, everyday I take steps to make sure I'm not tempted by others. Even if we are having an issue, it's my job to protect her and the marriage and not be "open to offers" from others.

I'm a buy and hold investor. I don't buy stocks and then sell them days later.

The same with my wife. I don't take one now, but look for a better deal later. I make sure I'm getting and giving a good deal to my wife.


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Originally Posted by hu7668
Tabby1:

From my impressions for reading the MB material is where I am getting my ideas. Maybe I am making all of this too black and white, which would not surprise me because I am from a IT background. I always look for the root cause of an issue not the fluff that can lead you too it. The fluff in these cases is the OP and the affair. To me the root cause for the affair is more important then the OP or the affair itself. Since learning about the whole emotional needs concept I better understand root causes of these issues.
I'm in IT as well. Been doing it for 25 years now. Met the guy who invented ethernet and worked on one of the original FTPD servers in college what seemed to be 100 years ago, not to mention packet switched voice in the late 1980's early 1990's before it was a big buzz.

Just so you know you are not dealing with an intellectual lightweight who is easily intimidated.

So I can also compartmentalize very well, which means I'll buy what your are selling, but only if it's packaged correctly.

Currently, you have a lot of things right, as far as I can tell, but I don't think your filesystem is coherent at this time.

You are mixing data about the state of the marriage with data about the affair.

While the affair impacts the marriage the state of the marriage can NEVER CAUSE an affair.

On one hand, you are arguing that the state of the marriage CAUSES the affair, or is responsible for the spouse choosing an affair.

On the other, you say everyone has their price.

There is a contradiction here. Because if everyone has their price, there is no way to prevent an affair. Their is nothing I can do as a spouse to prevent someone from offering that price.

So either you are not correct about everyone having their price, or you are not correct about a spouse being able to prevent others from meeting that price threshold.

If everyone has their price, Dr Harley's work on meeting emotional needs and protecting the marriage is worthless.

(Which then begs the question, why are you here if this is so worthless?)

So I'm not buying what you are selling with regard to responsibility for the affair. You are engaging in a blame-shift where the victim of a crime is blamed for the crime.

Dr Harley equates affairs with rape. No one deserves to be raped, ever. Not even if they are dressed in a provocative manner. As a society, we rightfully reject the arguments of rapists who claim that the victim asked for it. That the rape was partially her fault for being in the wrong place, or dressing in a fashion where he could not control himself.

We lock such folks up if they cannot control themselves.

Yet folks are arguing that those who engage in affair can shift the blame for choosing an affair upon their spouse because of a failure to meet emotional needs.

Bzzt. Wrong answer. This sort of rape of the marriage and family is just as inexcusable, period.

You have nothing on me with regards to Black and White thinking. Affairs = ALWAYS WRONG. Affairs = RESPONSIBILITY of Participants, ONLY! BS has ZERO responsibility for WS's affair.

Doesn't get more black and white than that.
Originally Posted by hu7668
I did not say the BS is solely responsible there is plenty of blame to go around. Most of the blame lies with the WS, but the OP just seems to be the easy target. The OP is just the opportunist that took the invitation.
Or OP gave an invitation. Who knows. The BS responsibility = 0. Not more, not less, exactly zero.
Originally Posted by hu7668
Your is the most rational reason I have seen for blaming the OP. But I see past your reasoning back to the root cause of the problems that belong with the WS/BS. If find the whole drama of the OP to be a waste of resources that could be better spent on fixing the root causes.
I don't blame the OP, other than for choosing to engage in selfish behavior. While the OP may not know the one they are sleeping with is married, they certainly know they are not married to their partner. So they own their part in this little sinfest.
Originally Posted by hu7668
Vows like any promise are not worth relying on. If I would've know how hard marriage was going to be when I got married I would've tried and communicated better then I have. Actions are what keep a marriage together not some silly set of words.
I wouldn't call the words silly. But I do agree that the actions mean far more than words. The actions of one who chooses to have an affair are far more powerful than any words they've spoken.

The thing is, actions are born from thoughts. And everyone thinks in words as far as I can tell. So meditating on what you've vowed to do, and then doing it is far more powerful than just living by chance.

The only one who can make my words worthless is me. My wife cannot render my words worthless, nor can you. Not even my former wife can do this, and she is very good at destroying things, LOL.
Originally Posted by hu7668
CV55:
Your right about the taking responsibility in making the marriage vulnerable. Will never say that the BS is totally responsible, because they are not. I am not arguing that. I am arguing the whole idea of morals and the OP. Sorry but the "predatory OP" you mention does not exists. Sure you can be chased, but unless there is interest and neglect being chases is like having a 12 year old interested in you. Your just not interested.

The whole notion of people growing up?? Oh come on! What we out grow our emotions except those approved by our spouse?
When we grow up, we consider the emotions of others and not only our own. For those who choose affairs, one could make the case that they are not emotionally mature, because a healthy, emotional adult doesn't engage in behaviors that are hurtful to others.

They may from time to time accidentally hurt. But they also care enough to apologize and learn from their mistakes.

I think those who engage in affairs CAN do this as well if they want to.

If they don't want to, I'd argue they are not healthy emotional adults, but children trapped in big, hormone filled bodies.
Originally Posted by hu7668
Everyone:
I am not defending affairs, which seems to be the impression a lot of you have. My beef is with the notion of morals and the OP. Morals do not play into the thinking of the OP, opportunity does. The OP supplies the opportunity that matches the interest and neglect the WS has. Then emotions will override ANY and ALL morals you have.

Then I guess you've not met many ESTJ's (MB type indicator personality types, very similar to Mr Spock!) There are quite a number of personality types that use emotion as a secondary or even tertiary means of deciding a course of action. Reason, logic and ethics are valued before emotion by many, including myself.

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Originally Posted by hu7668
Originally Posted by KiwiJ
medc, you know as well as I do that this is for real. Good grief, it's textbook fog.

You know something - I refuse to write him off. Here on MB is a very good place for someone to start. If we write him off, how will he ever get to see the wisdom here.

No one wrote me off when I arrived here. I have a feeling if I arrived here now in the same state I was in then, I'd have been run off too.

Why is the simple answer for everyone here the "fog"??? Why cannot a different opinion just be that?

Sorry alot of what I keep reading here is dogma that goes against things I have been reading in HNHN. I started to read the book again and NO WHERE that I can find is there this assignment of blame to the OP. I find plenty on the WS and even some on the BS, but NONE on the OP.

I think you read wrong with respect to the BS. Dr Harley is clear not to blame the BS for the choices of the cheating spouse.

He does say that not meeting needs puts a marriage at more risk. However, to say that this is blaming the BS is not accurate.

I would agree that Dr Harley doesn't blame the OP in what he writes.

I think this is two-fold. First, the more attention placed on the OP, the more the WS is encouraged to think about the good attributes of the WS. Second, Dr Harley's focus is on enticing the WS back to the marriage. One cannot really do that by focusing on the OP.

Actually, the only time the OP really comes into play is if plan B is put into place, and then the WS gets ZERO EN's met by the BS and the OP has to step up and meet all those needs.

Dr Harley knows that few OPs can do this and the affair is likely to die. There is the addition of LB's by the OP when they are expected to meet more needs as well.

There are exceptions of course.

But the OP is not a major factor in recovering the marriage and little focus is placed upon the OP, for good reason.

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Here is what Dr Harley told me:

Quote
MelodyLane: Let me add something to what I have already written to you. I hope I'm not being too redundant.

You will hear Joyce and I repeat, "there are reasons but no excuses." One of the reasons for an affair is that emotional needs are not being adequately met in marriage, which makes an affair that meets those needs more tempting. But the same thing can be said of some who rob banks. They may be out of work, need money to pay the rent, ask for a loan but are refused by the bank, which makes robbing it more tempting. One reason for the robbery is that the bank refused the loan, but it wasn't the bank's fault that it was robbed. On hindsight, a bank might have helped the robber get the help he needed through social services, but the bank is under no obligation to do so, even though they advertise that it is a "caring bank."

An affair is different from robbing banks in that a couple have promised to be more caring than banks. But the principle is the same. The lack of care by one spouse does not excuse harmful behavior by the other spouse. Even when one spouse absolutely refuses to be affectionate, or to make love, or to talk intimately, or to join in recreational activities with the other spouse, it gives them no right to have those needs met by someone else of the opposite sex in an affair. They have the right to separate until the other spouse meets those needs, or even divorce when it becomes obvious that there will be absolutely no cooperation (there are many who strongly disagree with me on that point). But an affair is so cruel and so painful that nothing any one spouse does (including having an affair themselves) can justify the suffering that an affair causes.

Making a disgraceful act more tempting by someone is no excuse for that person committing the disgraceful act. Besides, in most marriages, there are times when emotional needs are not being met for reasons beyond anyone's control. That's why I recommend extraordinary precautions to help spouses avoid an affair. They are to not allow anyone of the opposite sex to meet their need for affection, or intimate conversation, or recreational companionship, or sexual fulfillment. When those needs are met, they deposit so many love units that you are likely to fall in love with that person, and make you hurt your spouse in the worst way possible. I hope that explanation helps.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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It's funny, but I used to hear the same crap off of criminals. They would say..."IF she had just let go of the purse, I would not have had to shoot, beat, stab etc..." If the victim did everything that the "criminal" (adulterer) wanted...well, then they wouldn't have had to do ...

Affairs are 100% the fault of the WS and the OP...100% of the time (the ONLY exception is if the WS lies to the OP about his/her marital status...in these cases, the OP is also a victim of the dirt-bag WS and not really an OP).

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medc,
Do you really think that's 100% true? That if the WS lies to the OP that they are completely innocent in it all? Don't you think that there would be some clues somewhere that the OP is choosing not to see to convince themselves that everything is on the up and up? My WH told the OW that he wasn't married or was divorced. There were plenty of signs that he WAS married and I feel like the OW chose to IGNORE them.

I think an OP is never 100% clueless.

Otherwise, I totally agree with what you said. smile


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Now - one day at a time....
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Originally Posted by onlyUcan
medc,
Do you really think that's 100% true? That if the WS lies to the OP that they are completely innocent in it all? Don't you think that there would be some clues somewhere that the OP is choosing not to see to convince themselves that everything is on the up and up? My WH told the OW that he wasn't married or was divorced. There were plenty of signs that he WAS married and I feel like the OW chose to IGNORE them.

I think an OP is never 100% clueless.

Otherwise, I totally agree with what you said. smile

I'm pretty sure that even if the OP doesn't know the WS is married, 100% of them know they are not married to the man or woman they are sleeping with.

So the I didn't know garbage of any OP means nothing. They know they are not married to their partner and that makes them in the wrong right there.

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They know they are not married to their partner and that makes them in the wrong right there.

Egg-zak-lee!

S&C


No man likes to have his intelligence or good faith questioned, especially if he has doubts about it himself. - Henry Brooks Adams
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Originally Posted by steadfast and committed
Quote
They know they are not married to their partner and that makes them in the wrong right there.

Egg-zak-lee!

S&C

Probably not going to be a popular point of view, but thanks for standing with me here.

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There is no way that a BS is ever going to buy into the notion that the OP carries no blame for contributing to the hurt that has been heaped on them. OP's don't break vows to the BS, but they ignore the rules of common decency at the very least.

Here is why the WS’s recognition of the OP's responsibility in the affair is important to recovering a marriage. First, as has been stated, blaming the BS and exonerating the OP sends a message to the BS that the WS's loyalty still rests with the OP. Second, if a WS is unable to recognize how the OP was upping the bid to meet his price (or even understood that he was on the auction block) then how can the WS put in place the necessary precautions to protect his BS in the future? Finally, if a WS is unwilling to see the truth of the OP’s character, then that WS will always be comparing the reality of his BS to the fantasy he carries of the OP. Reality rarely measures up to fantasy.

If a WS truly accepts that their behavior was wrong, then how on earth can they claim that the OP, who was doing the exact same thing, was not also wrong and just as culpable for any destruction caused as a result of the relationship?

The BS was not responsible for the affair. The OP was not responsible for the state of the marriage, but the OP certainly is responsible for being an accomplice in compounding the trouble within the marriage.


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Exodus,
I would LOVE you to post that on my thread


Recovered marriage, recovering self, life gets better everyday laugh
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If that was what I had said, you would have a valid argument.

I clearly said that Dr Harley doesn't focus on the BS.

For marriage building, the WORST thing to do is to focus on the OP.

I never said the OP wasn't responsible, their actions didn't hurt, etc.

Dr Harley simply doesn't focus on the OP, other than if plan B is in order, then the OP has to step up and meet all needs and has more opportunity to LB.

None of what I've said contradicts the truth of what you say.

LU... was looking for documentation in Dr Harley's books about hating the OP. It's a fruitless exercise if you wish to rebuild your marriage, and is likely to lead one to an LB.

So I think it's best to put the OP out of your mind. The goal is to build a marriage, not plant a seed of hate in your life.

Originally Posted by Exodus1414
There is no way that a BS is ever going to buy into the notion that the OP carries no blame for contributing to the hurt that has been heaped on them. OP's don't break vows to the BS, but they ignore the rules of common decency at the very least.

Here is why the WS’s recognition of the OP's responsibility in the affair is important to recovering a marriage. First, as has been stated, blaming the BS and exonerating the OP sends a message to the BS that the WS's loyalty still rests with the OP. Second, if a WS is unable to recognize how the OP was upping the bid to meet his price (or even understood that he was on the auction block) then how can the WS put in place the necessary precautions to protect his BS in the future? Finally, if a WS is unwilling to see the truth of the OP’s character, then that WS will always be comparing the reality of his BS to the fantasy he carries of the OP. Reality rarely measures up to fantasy.

If a WS truly accepts that their behavior was wrong, then how on earth can they claim that the OP, who was doing the exact same thing, was not also wrong and just as culpable for any destruction caused as a result of the relationship?

The BS was not responsible for the affair. The OP was not responsible for the state of the marriage, but the OP certainly is responsible for being an accomplice in compounding the trouble within the marriage.

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EE, I had no disagreement with what you posted. I just clicked on the nearest "reply" button to respond to the thread's theme. I apologize for the confusion.

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Quote
So the I didn't know garbage of any OP means nothing.

That's all well and nice for you...and others that subscribe to the same thinking...

BUT...

What if no intercourse was involved...what if they just kissed and went out on dates???

What if the OP was truly clueless...I HAVE been out on dates with a married woman in the past...I NEVER knew and when I did...well, let's just say things got a bit ugly.

Quote
They know they are not married to their partner and that makes them in the wrong right there.


So...all people need to subscribe to your line of thinking on this or they are wrong? Think about what you are saying. You are equating a person that goes out on dates while NOT married to an adulterer. That is pitiful.


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100% of them know they are not married to the man or woman they are sleeping with

not everyone believes as you do about premarital sex. That doesn't make them low life adulterers.

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That if the WS lies to the OP that they are completely innocent

Well, IF I were married and met a woman...and told her I was single and available...fooled her...she is blameless. Look how long WS are able to fool the people closest to them...those that know them best...it would be exponentially easier to fool someone you do not live with and have limited interactions with. So, yes...I do think a person can be totally in the dark about this. IF they have knowledge and still continue with the WS...their fault is obvious. We cannot condemn a person for being tricked.

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Originally Posted by medc
Quote
So the I didn't know garbage of any OP means nothing.

That's all well and nice for you...and others that subscribe to the same thinking...

BUT...

What if no intercourse was involved...what if they just kissed and went out on dates???
When I was in the Army, this sort of thing happened a lot. I'd meet a woman and get to know her, and then something didn't seem right.

She'd be married and her husband deployed.

So I'm glad I was not having sex with any of these folks.

I can't say that I followed the rules about no sex before married when I was in my 20's. But being older and wiser, I see the wisdom in following such a rule today.

Of course, it doesn't really matter. My first wife and I didn't have sex with one another before we married. Didn't really stop her from having an affair.

We'll see how it turns out this time around.

I don't expect everyone to enthusiastically embrace this way of thinking. But I do think the very situation we're talking about here is one of the reasons for such a rule.

It makes a good case for adopting such a rule in one's life.

However, I still don't buy the totally clueless excuse. Sleeping with someone is pretty serious and can have some pretty serious consequences. So wouldn't it be best if you checked your partner out BEFORE hopping in the sack?

That's a pretty big thing to no know about the person you are sleeping with.

And if they are lying about it, wouldn't you want to know before you became emotionally and physically involved with them?

They may not know. But ignorance is seldom an excuse. What if he/she had AIDS instead of being married.

Ignorance can be fatal!

Originally Posted by medc
What if the OP was truly clueless...I HAVE been out on dates with a married woman in the past...I NEVER knew and when I did...well, let's just say things got a bit ugly.

Quote
They know they are not married to their partner and that makes them in the wrong right there.


So...all people need to subscribe to your line of thinking on this or they are wrong? Think about what you are saying. You are equating a person that goes out on dates while NOT married to an adulterer. That is pitiful.


Quote
100% of them know they are not married to the man or woman they are sleeping with

not everyone believes as you do about premarital sex. That doesn't make them low life adulterers.

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Originally Posted by Enlighted_Ex
If that was what I had said, you would have a valid argument.

I clearly said that Dr Harley doesn't focus on the BS.

For marriage building, the WORST thing to do is to focus on the OP.

Just to keep things clear, the issue was NEVER "focusing" on the OP, but BLAMING the OP for her crimes against the BS. HU does not believe his OW should be blamed by his BS for her part in the affair, but believes the BS should be blamed because she did not meet the WS needs and made him have an affair. No one has ever said that she should focus on the OP at the exclusion of marital recovery.

HU believes that his the OWH should not blame HIM and that his BS should not blame the OW. THAT is the issue.


Quote
hu7668: I made a comment on another thread about responsibility to marriage and where to place blame. Seems a lot of people just want to blame the WH/WW or OM/OW ignoring the fact the BS has a part in the whole mess.

Quote
hu7668: I am more the sure her H feels like I am to blame. It is miss placed but he is free to blame who he wants too.

But of course a normal person is going to despise someone who slept with their husband and knifed her in the back. Any decent, mentally healthy person will hate injustice. That is a sign of decency. Anger at being assaulted in such a manner is a HEALTHY response.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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