I think I've worked on that aspect a lot, but not recently and probably not enough. It's often hard to do because she gets upset whenever I even suggest that the divorce might not happen...she sees it me not really listen to her.

It really needs to be her idea to get back together, and I think she needs to have to have something concrete to point at as the reason why she wants to stay married.

So here comes another random point. I think I've mentioned that I'm realizing and accepting how judgemental I am, and am working to eliminate that.

And I guess I've always known this but I get this judgemental personality from my mother. And since I'm now leaving with Mom, I get to look into the mirror a lot. I recognize more how things sound, and how hurtful it can be. What I've also noticed is that judgements are usually pretty useless.

Most of the conversations tend to be around my marriage situation, and it always has some component where she mentions that my wife is doing something wrong. I've gotten to the point where it upsets me when she does that, and I end up defend my wife to my mother. I don't always like I should, but I do it more. In the last conversation, I commented that I thought my wife was brave for have the guts to separate, but Ma didn't understand that as she said that my wife obviously didn't make the effort to make things work. I told her that that was a stupid thing to say as not only do you not really know what my wife is going through inside, but it's a completely useless statement to make, as blaming her for not trying isn't going to motivate my wife to try. It just builds resentment and reinforces the idea that I don't really know her. Where is the upside? Only possible benefit is that it keeps the guilt off me, thus making it easier for me to not deal with reality. It won't stop reality from coming though.

Anyway, completely random thought.

The upside is it teaches you that when two adults marry, they shake off the parental control/judgment and become one, and defend each other - to their parents. Your mom is just trying to protect you, I get it. But your allegiance is to your wife, for better or worse. Unless she's a total mistake, and I don't see that yet.

So, things have been relatively quite, but good I think. I haven't talked with her much, but we've had several good emails, joking around a bit too. She got really sick on Tuesday, and I let her know I really felt for her and wanted to help out anyway I could.

She had been planning to drive to San Antonio this weekend, to meet up with a friend from California. However, the friend just canceled on her, saying that she and her hubby had been arguing lately, and she wanted to spend a weekend with him instead. My wife said it was no biggie, but I know better. I called and left a message to say sorry about all that.

I had gotten her two gifts that I was planning on giving her before she goes. One was a CD of a group she likes...driving music. The other was 3 pre-paid massages. She liked the first one so much I wanted her to have some more when she felt she needed it.

This is really hard. I hate watching her have troubles and not being able to do anything about it. I guess this is just all part of it.

update: I ended up telling her about the massages in email. Her reply: "omg, I feel guilty that you did that, but at the same time it makes me so dang happy. Thank you so much!"

That's got me all mixed up for some reason.

Ok, because of her 'guilt', I sent an email last night saying that I wasn't expect a gift to change how she feels or that she's now required to reciprocate. I didn't because I thought it would make her happy. she hasn't responded but I didn't expect her too.

I had also asked her she wanted to go out for a family dinner sometime this weekend, and she said she'd get back to me. It's not because she's got potential plans, she just not sure if she wants to do that, or what I might think it will mean. I'm tempted to tell her nevermind, I didn't intend for it to be complicated at all, but a part of me says I'm just being vindictive or hurtful. I don't like the way this feels though.

Maybe I should just try and make other plans.

"That's got me all mixed up for some reason."

"Ok, because of her 'guilt', I sent an email last night saying that I wasn't expect a gift to change how she feels or that she's now required to reciprocate."

OUCH!! I can understand where you are coming from, but I also know from deep down inside myself that a message like that would not been just to console the other person - it would have been just as much to console myself.

Chances are, the best thing you could have done was give her time to deal with her own mixed emotions while you dealt with yours. Let the positive feelings be there instead of telling her what you were or weren't expecting. With your expectations or l/o she could have had a chance to jump back to any negaives that might have been "looming in the dark" so to speak.

Waiting is hard as heck!! Take it from someone with PTS & seperation anxiety issues. Sometimes it'll make you sweat, cry, get depressed and sleep too much. It'll make you think you are totally CRAZY!! It'll make you doubt yourself, the other person, the whole relationship -- but in the end, if you can just hang on and "let it be" you'll come out better on the other side.

Next time she expresses that she likes something that much (even if she says she feels guilty) just let her know that you're glad she likes whatever it is. That validates her positive emotions and leaves room for her to deal with her own neg. emotions.


"I'm tempted to tell her nevermind, I didn't intend for it to be complicated at all, but a part of me says I'm just being vindictive or hurtful." YEP!! Been there too!! Don't do it if you want things to come out positive in the end.


"I don't like the way this feels though."
Nope!! None of us ever do. Sometimes learning to deal with our own negative emotions is the hardest job of all!! Hang on though -- feelings do change according to circumstances. Try to find something positive to fill in the waiting time. Maybe a goal you could focus on. It has helped me soooo many times when I had to deal with stuff. If you can find a goal (maybe jsut a small one) to focus on, it can help.

Best Wishes,
RMW

Thanks RMW.

Yep, I think I screwed this up a bit. She sent me an email saying that she didn't want to do dinner this week, but maybe next week. I replied that that was ok, and I didn't want her to feel uncomfortable.

She then said that she wasn't uncomfortable (not sure I believe that) it's just that she wanted to stick to her diet this week. The asked in a separate email if she had done something wrong.

I said ok, I was kind of in a bad mood and overanalyzing, projecting my mood onto you instead of what said, or didn't say.

I hate this, I just want to know how she feels instead of guessing all the time. I want to communicate...a lot. Even worse, I know she guesses as to what I'm feeling which can't be good as she's likely to assume bad things to reinforce her opinion that divorce is the right way to go.

I hate the idea that I won't be able to win her back because of stupid little things like this. But then again, I'm not perfect and deserve more of a chance then this, so I can't blame myself too much.

You're right about goals. I also have to keep the big picture in mind, that this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Ok, the day is just getting worse. I still feel pretty crappy today, so called the house thinking that talking to the kids might cheer me up. It didn't. And of course the W asked how I was doing, so I told her. I didn't blame her, I just told her.

Then I did something that's probably stupid. I asked her if she still cared for me. She said she didn't want to talk about it right now (I've heard that a hundred times). She was getting mad. I said ok, I wasn't trying to start anything. Then she quickly said that she did still care for me. A lot. But she didn't want to tell me because she doesn't want me getting frustrating and trying to convince her not to go through with divorce.

Although it felt good to hear her say that, it really doesn't mean that much. Love is a verb, not just a feeling. I'm so tired of feeling like a fool, like she thinks nothing of me. Trying to be there for her when I know she won't be there for me. Knowing that she's starting to go by her maiden name even though I'm still her husband and still paying all the bills. Yes, I'm mostly angry right now.

I am not going to call her back and I'm not going to ask her to change her mind. I am so tempted to tell her to sped up the divorce to try and get a loan for the house so that I can move on. I know that doesn't really fix how I feel though. I don't know what I'm going to do now. I know I need a few days off from her. From all of this. I need to figure out how I'm going to a good weekend dad. How I'm going to respect my possible XW, while I still hurt so much. Figuring out how I'm going to be able to have a live with my kids not around, and then be able to put them first when they are. I'm scared. Really scared.

I know I'm not perfect and I have a lot of work to do on being a good husband and a Daddy, but I don't want to be done yet. I don't want to see my wife and kids suffer and not be able to do anything about. I don't want to be alone, reliving all my past mistakes everyday.

Ok, I'm not venting now.

Bless you mel,

Just reading what you wrote made my head spin and remember some of the crap I've been through and put up with.

But in all of that I did remember something my IC said about control issues - not in me, in my xf. His were generally bad in the controlling dept. but there are instances where you can mean good things to come from what you are doing, but it still a control issue.


"Then she quickly said that she did still care for me. A lot. But she didn't want to tell me because she doesn't want me getting frustrating and trying to convince her not to go through with divorce."

Chances are she feels more "controlled" than "accepted". Maybe - maybe not. But I've seen it and felt that way before myself. It wasn't that the person wasn't trying to do "good", it's just that I didn't feel heard and understood - and accepted - validated by him.

Ain't taking sides, by no means, but maybe you need to look at your FOO and find out if there was anyone that you felt responsible for as you were growing up. And if you find that, learn to see where that affects the way you behave in relationships. It took me a long time to find some of my own issues and get past them. But you can do it.

If you are a reader - CHANGES THAT HEAL was a book that helped me a lot. By Cloud and Townsend

Wish I had more encouraging words to send you way. Hope your weekend goes better than the past few days!

Best Wishes,
RMW

No, you have it right. I get my controlling issues from FOO. I learned about controlling from mother, who hasn't stopped controlling yet. As well, I grew spending a lot of time alone. We move around a lot and I always had to make new friends. I hated when the friends I had did stuff with other friends.

I do see what your saying and I know that she is right. I had no intention of trying to talk her into it, but I did do that a couple times in the past. At this point I need her to tell me that she wants to try, but if she can't tell me how she feels about me, that will never happen. Catch-22.

And you are very right about her not feeling accepted by me. She's said that she doesn't think that I really know her, and she can be herself around me.

We made a promise to each other that we wouldn't do anything vindictive and we wouldn't close accts and things like that without the other being ok and aware. She trusts me on that.
Can I promise to her that I won't try and talk her into staying married to me? I don't want to promise that, and it seems like I'm contradicting myself. I don't want her to think I'm done with her, I want her to get a measure of safety with me.

I can't really even go forward as good parents in divorce like this. When she says pretty much nothing about me, I'm only left with the negative hurtful things she said about me. And those stick in my mind and I feel like she has no respect for me at all.

So can I make her a promise? Tell her that I understand? Should I just do nothing?

Don't promise her anything that you don't believe you can stick to.

I've been rolling it around in my head and so far the only thing that has come to mind is to tell her that you would like to understand. But that you need help in understanding it all. Maybe if she can give you some specifics that make her feel you don't understand or know her- that might be a starting point. Be sure to let her know you aren't trying to push her back into a marriage that she doesn't want but that you would like to understand more so that no matter what you can be a better person for the future.

Do you think that might help? It's the only thing I could think of that would help you in your growing and hopefully not make her feel pushed to do something she doesn't want to do.

Good Luck,
RMW

Oh yea, I have a very controlling mother too. But she tries to control through manipulation. She's 74 and still doing it!!

It's taken me to the age of 42 to finally stand up and let her know that her whinning pulls me down and makes my life harder than it already is.

I grew up trying to be whatever it took to make her (and my dad) happy - to make them proud of me - to get just a little bit of positive attn from them. Never got it and kept hooking up with abusive, neglectful men. Now, I'm beginning to back off on my emotions in the beginning and start looking at what will actually come with the behavior and situations that the guys put forth. And to let them know when something they do won't work for me.

For a first time, I'm actually considering myself as equally important in a relationship at the beginning.

Again -
GOOD LUCK!
RMW

You are equally if not more important at the beginning. Friends keep telling me that I need to take care of myself, but I keep thinking I'll just worry about that later. Probably need to take care of myself so that I'm not a pushover.


So she just called me, wanted to know if I was ok. Told her I was (because I was) and that I understood what she was saying. Went into detail, pretty much exactly what we talked about above. She said I didn't need to say that, but I told her I did because I don't want her or anyone else to not feel accepted or safe around me. I then said that I wanted to promise her that I wouldn't be controlling again, but laughingly said I didn't know if I could 100% keep that promise right now. I think she understood.

I was hoping she'd start telling me how she felt, but that didn't happen. Maybe someday.

edit: Oh, almost forgot, I even told her that went I got nothing from her, I had to fall back on the negative things she said about me...and she understood that.

I didn't read this post before I got the phone call or replied. What you said make sense, although I think I really have a pretty good understand of why she doesn't want to stay married. It's just that I know that she is holding back from me, that she has a wall. That even if I stop bad behavior, she won't accept it.

I want to know how she feels for two reasons. One because it's the only way she can ever really trust me with her heart again. Two, because it will encourage me to keep trying.

lol @me responding to myself.

Anyway, I got served today. Guy came to my mother's house and handed me the papers. It wasn't too bad, but I saw that the guy had a photograph of me. I didn't like that as it made me feel like a criminal or something. But I was expected it to be delivered so it wasn't a surprise or anything.

Since my wife and I had promosed to trust each other and be honest about everything in this. I sent her an email simply saying "I got served the divorce papers today." Nothing more.

She replied "Okay. Are u okay?" I've seen that response often enough to feel that it's less about concern for me as it is her trying to get rid of guilt feelings. She knows that I will likely tell her I'm not mad or something, so she can go on ok. But I didn't want to say that an assume she was feeling anything. I didn't want to lie and said it was ok, as if I was ok with divorce. This would help her guilt feelings and make her feel like what she's doing is right. I didn't want to say I was falling apart (because I wasn't) as this would just make me look weak and again, strength her resolve. I wanted to just tell her the truth.

So I said "I'm not happy about it, but I'm not falling apart if that's what you're asking". Pretty fair and honest I think (I hope). I don't think that was mean, was it?

She replied back "I'm not sure what I was asking. Sorry." I can't tell if she's mad or what, so I won't guess. And I feel like this is where I should end this conversation. I don't want to tell her it is ok, and I don't want to take responsibility for the consequences of her actions. And I don't know what she's sorry for. Sorry for asking or sorry for divorcing me. I don't even know if that's an apology, or a show of sympathy.

I feel like I should let this go, and go back to idle chit-chat when the time is right a couple days from now. Of course, she'll call me before then...she always does.

When she calls for idle chit chat, what does she like to talk about? Converstation generally is one of a woman's needs.

When you two talk again, before it's over, you might throw in that you love her and wish you two could work on things. That you are working on yourself.

Just a thought! gotta go for now. Been cutting yards since 2pm & I'm sore and need to soak some of it out before I get ready to go out tonight! I'll check back in later to see if you posted again..

Best Wishes,
RMW

My only thought is that, while you want to be a good Plan A, you don't want to me a milquetoast. If you're hurting, tell her so. If you're mad, tell her so. If you're ok, tell her so. Honesty and conversation are you main goals right now.

You're absolutely right cat. I talked with her briefly on IM today and thinks were ok. She thought I was upset with her,which I wasn't but it's not my fault she felt that way. I told her she was special to me and left it at that.

I feel rather inspired today, so it might be a good time for a love letter of sorts. We'll see.

So I got an email from her this morning. Basically, she said that she knew I was hurting and she was hurting too, but she didn't like the short responses I was giving her. She felt as if I was trying to make her feel bad and guilty, and she couldn't let me do that to her. If this continued, she didn't want to talk to me.

It didn't bother me because I knew that wasn't my intention at all, any guilt she was feeling was her own. So I wrote a long email, but my computer crashed before I finished, so I just called her.

She was cautious, but I explained that I was short because I didn't want to say anything stupid or that wasn't accurate. I didn't want to assume anything about how she was feeling or what she meant when she asked if I was ok. We had a short IM conversation last night that I ended quickly, but I did that because I said something nice about her, and didn't want her to feel obligated to respond in kind.

She understood that, and I furthered by saying that we needed to talk to more in order to avoid this kind of stuff, not less, and she was ok with that. I told her that I wanted to promise her I wasn't going to try and convice her to change her mind anymore, but that I knew it was going to be hard. But at the very least, she could know that if I started that, she could cut me off and tell me what I was doing. She seemed to like that too.

We then talked about the kids a bit, and I went on to be sweet on her for a bit, telling her how much I care. She actually thanked me for that. At one point she had said something nice to me (can't remember what) at which point she followed up that she wasn't changing her mind. I took that as a good sign.

Anyway, it was a great conversation. We seem to really communicate and make some positive progress, towards trusting each other at the very least. I hope it can continue.

edit: And yes, I did tell her that I loved her when I hung up. I don't think that bothered her either.

Awesome, good job!