Hello, first post. I'm not sure that I have a question so much as I need to vent. My W and I have been married for almost 5 years. We have 3 kids, the eldest is not mine by blood, he was 2 when we got married. The second was born nine months later. Needless to say, there were many stresses in our life that allowed us to neglect each other and focus on other things.

We have had issues for a long time, over money, communication, and your basic typical stuff most marriages face. We started growing apart and spending less and less time together. I became very depressed, and didn't really take care of it until this Januaury. After this, things were steadly getting better between us, until we had big blow up where I left the house, something she had wanted me to do for about a year, although I never really understood how far on the edge we were.

So I moved in with my mother, and she essentially went on with live without me and was rather happy. I, of course, was not in good shape at all, and I could not get her to really talk about things, or even say that she was willing towards reconcilliation or divorce. After about a month of this, we had another big blow up where we agreed to divorce while caught up in emotions. I immediately regreted it and she has held on to that.

However, since we reached this new stage, things have changed drastically. She went from being happy to being scared. She did not have a job and did not secure one until recently. Since she's a teacher, she won't actually start until the fall. She has had trouble sleeping and has said that she feels guilty about what this was doing to the kids. She has made an effort to include me more for the sake of the kids, and to be friends.

I was able to find some relief somehow, and was able to start working on what I needed to do. From the advice of my counselor, I purchased "winning your wife back before it's to late" and found that it fit my situation perfectly. I've been pretty good at being selfless and finding ways to demonstrate my love, although giving space and being patient is very difficult for me. I have been supportive of her in any way I can and told her how much I care and provided gifts her in every possible creative way I can think of.

So after 2 months of this, she has responded to my actions by telling me when things have meant a lot to her. She has never really turned me away to anything I've specifically done or said. So I've felt like I've made progress and shown her that I can be the husband that she needs me to be.

However, she is stubburn in wanting to carry out the divorce, and has held on to many hurts, even the ones that are years old. This weekend seemed to be especially telling. She had invited me to go to one of the many kid birthday parties and I happily went. She told me at this party that there was another birthday party immediately afterwards, and I asked her if she minded if I came, which she said no. The second party was rather ackward, and afterwards she told me that she didn't want me there, especially since her friends would see that I was being nice to her and would use that to tell her she was making the wrong decision. It turned into somewhat of a fight, though it was mostly her telling me all the things she doesn't like about me, followed by an email later repeating everything again. I was rather hurt by this, as I was really hoping that she was starting to turn the corner a bit and rethinking things.

Anyway, I normally respond in detail to things like this, but I waited till Sunday morning and simply thanked her for her email. She replied back "I'm sorry to hurt you. I really am." I didn't respond to that, and she sent another email on Monday afternoon asking a random question. I waited till Tuesday morning to answer, and got the immediate response "Okay. Are you angry with me? I'm sorry about the way that I said things to you. If I wasn't angry, I wouldn't have. I shouldn't have written you right then", followed by a phone call 5 minutes later asking the same question. I told her that I wasn't mad and replied to the email with "Really, I’m not angry. I’m really trying to respect your wishes and let you go, but I’m just not very good at it, so I probably just seem rather unemotional." Again, she immediately replied "I just feel bad and I don't want u to feel bad, but I guess we're going to. I'm sorry."

I pretty much know that I just need to leave her alone, but I am very scared. I'm afraid that I haven't shown her enough that she can believe that things could be different. But I supposse I've done all I can there. I don't know if she is subconciously having 2nd thoughts or just guilt. Maybe that doesn't matter now. Overall, I'm feeling pretty empty, and I'm scared that I will either get impatient and try and fix everything now, or will start looking for EN elsewhere. I try to tell myself that since she won't work till late August, there is plenty of time to wait. She may not even really be ready after that because of all the stress.

I don't know how to stop missing her. It's so tough having any kind of life right now as my family was my life, and I now have to live in a room at my mother's house. I've worked on things for sure, but it's so tough not to try and make contact with her, and find ways to keep myself occupied.

From reading other threads, it looks like I'm on plan B. Where can I find an article that defines these plans. Also, any advice is welcome, I've left out a ton of details and will fill those in as needed, but just wanted to get this out there.

-mel

mel,

I just wanted you to know you are not alone. This is a very hard road we are traveling. I will be praying for you.

Thanks Kathy.

Wow, Mel. It sounds like you handled that blow up and email really well. You can expect her to vent a laundry list occassionally as she moves from withdrawal to conflict before reaching that emotional connection again. This is actually a good sign, especially since you didn't just have a defensive knee-jerk reaction. Instead, you showed her you heard her.

Give it time. There are years of frustration and distrust to overcome for both of you. Drag your feet on the DV. She may come around yet.

And once she starts working.... She may really decide she wants to stay married. Working as a divorced mother of two is hard, as a mother of three it would be exhausting.

And no, don't rush into anything whether trying to "fix" the situation or date others. Now is a great "growth opportunity" for patience. All the tough times in my life, I've relabeled "growth opportunities." This helps me see the silver lining, and do the hard work rather than wallow constantly. Over the next several months, you will develop self-restraint and patience like you never imagined. This will be one of the hardest things you'll do, and it will be worth it whether you reclaim your marriage or end up divorced.

Thanks so much for the advice Greengables. I think you're right about things, but I fear that my wife is too far gone to ever turn back around. I need to be patient regardless(and I suck at that) and let her figure things out for herself. She says that she doesn't love me anymore and is deadset on divorce. She actually so a lawyer yesterday, so the wheels are in motion.

She was upset that the lawyer didn't give her good news about what she'd get from the divorce. I told her today that I was really worried about her future, not just the kids, and she told me she didn't near anything negative right now (regardless of how true it may be).

I think I really, really, really need to step back and leave her completely alone. There is nothing I can say or do anymore. That's so hard, becomes I'm very lonely. I miss her and don't know what to do with myself anymore. But you're right that this is a growing oppurtunity, and I do believe that I am capable of great change. There are things I can work on for sure.

I don't think she's as far gone as you think. Otherwise, she wouldn't have invited you to go to the party. Plus, think of the reason why she was uncomfortable with you at the second party: She didn't want her friends to tell her she shouldn't get divorced. In my case, I didn't want my ex to come to parties because my friends would get angry I was still with him.

Lonely is tough, but you know, it's good to know in your gut that you can survive being lonely. Do you have friends you can hang out with? What about joining a volunteer group or taking up a new hobby? I repainted my house one room at a time.

While I'd give her room, I'd also remind her of you. Send flowers every once in a while. Maybe don't sign your name. I just have a weird feeling she's going to see the changes you're making and come around.

I know what your saying, but that happened weeks ago. However, I do see signs that she cares. And one thing I've noticed is whenever she's done something that she knows hurt me, she immediately tries to make contact and smooth things over. She did that yesterday after she told me she saw a lawyer. I got several phone calls and few emails about things that didn't need to be discussed.

And I'm sorry to hear about your case.


I have friends that I can hang out with, but they are all pretty much married with little time. I'm trying to spread out my time and make new friends. Hobbies are somewhat difficult since I'm living at my mother's house (which totally sucks). I painted her living room a few weekends ago and put finish on a bookshelf this weekend. Thinking about buying some more unfinished furniture. I've also started scanning every picture I can find, and organizing them into folders. And I'm working on playlists as well. I workout whenever I can. I'm going to this series on raising your boys at the church. So yea, I got some hobbies, but it's not enough.

I probably should look into volunteering, thanks for the suggestion.


I thought that, and I spent a couple months doing that. She admitted that it was working to an extent and she felt good about what I was doing, but it wasn't going to change her mind. I haven't exactly stopped, but it's getting harder to do so.

She is convinced that not only will she be happy without me, but the kids will be better off this way as oppossed to growing up with parents that always fight. My parents always fought so I know how that goes. My Dad also had kids from a previous marriage and I know how that went as well. She doesn't believe we could possible reconcile and fix things, regardless of the fact that circumstances have changed drastically.

I've been hanging on to that same weird feeling your talking about, but it's getting harder and harder to keep up the faith. It's probably time to just put her aside and find a way to make myself whole again without her.

Hmm. Maybe it's time to make yourself whole again, but not time to give up on her. I'd still keep doing the stuff you've done that she admitted she liked. It can't hurt, and you want to prove to her you're in this for the long haul. The worst is when people make changes that are short lived. Short lived changes destroy trust.

Yea, I was thinking about that a lot last night. I know I am a better person then I used to be, and I've been doing it for myself, but I'm not there yet. I know the person that I was when we got married and I'm not that confident in myself yet, amoung other things.

Yesterday when we talked, which was kind of an arguement, I could tell that she was playing both sides of issues. She would tell me that I wasn't thinking of her as far as divorce settlement goes, but then when I told her all the things I was scared she would have to face on her own, she told me I was too negative. I'm starting to realize she's making me feel guilty all the time, and I can't let that happen.

As far as negative goes, it's ironic, because she's the one who's quitting, not me. We she calls as positive is really just ignoring reality. She tells me she's happy now, and yet she also tells me how stressed out and worried she is. Like me, she's on depression meds.

I think I've been trying to soften the blow for her too much, and she really needs to deal with the full brunt of what she wants to do. I agree, that she needs to know that I still care and I'm still here, but not try and protect her from all the things that come with divorce.

update: she just emailed me and said she wants to meet for lunch "because the kids want to see me". I am so tempted to say no.

Maybe, but don't! Be there for her each and every time, no matter how nasty she gets. Let her work out her conflicts on her own - you continue to be the good guy, the one she'll want to come back to. The high road. And consistently. That's what women want, I think.

yea, I told her yes, but I'm not going to make sure I don't do something stupid like I'm prone to do. By that I mean say something that makes me look desparate. There's a good way and a bad way to tell someone you think they're beautiful. We always get along great when the kids are there and don't talk about us really.

btw, I just got a lawyer. I don't want to, but since she has one I kind of have to. I still want to drag it out a bit though.

A good lawyer will help you drag it out.

I agree you should say yes to invites, but only if you don't already have plans. It does not hurt for your spouse to know you actually have a life. It makes you interesting and appealing.

How old are your kids, Mel?

Yea, things will drag out as well since my wife tends to procrastinate on things. It took her over a week to get the mobile phone transferred under her name, even with my help. When she starts teaching again in the fall, she's going to have almost no freetime and will be moving very slowly I'm sure.

As it turns out, I didn't respond to her quick enough and she was no longer near my office at 10:45 AM when I responded to her email.

My kids are 7-boy (technically not mine and already under child support from his biological father, 4-boy, and 2-girl. The 7 year is used to being shuffled around a bit and is quite, but wants us to get back together. My 4 year is taking it the worst and is extremely clingy when I get to be with him.

And yes, having a life is a problem right now. I do have friends I can do stuff with, but they are either married and busy, or coworkers who just want to go to happy hour all the time. I was kinda foolish during marriage as I let friends drift away.

Hey, me too. And, I don't make friends easily. I'm trying to work on that so I don't die a lonely old lady.

Actually you do have a life. It's just got an empty space right now. But, soon you'll have that filled with other stuff, like committees or a garden or a dog or heaven knows what will creep in.

When I started dating I had really mixed feelings because I didn't have any time. I'd have to give up some activities to fit in dates. Yoga class went by the wayside, as did obedience training and dreams of agility training for my dog. And, I haven't been able to hang out with Newly in about 2 years. She's an MB person I've met in real life. Oh, and it cut down my posting here for a long while.

At least your wife called to ask. That shows she doesn't hate your guts. I would go to extremes to avoid sitting down for a meal with my ex, and he would do the same.

Do you have a plan for the oldest son in case worse comes to worst? I'm assuming you'll want visitation with him just as with your other two. I'm really glad you have a lawyer to help you with that.

My only legal tie to him was by marriage. I can't see how I can get visitation rights since he already has a father who pays child support and has visitation rights. However, my wife (I need to learn these acronyms) has assured me that she will never prevent me from seeing him. I've been the main male figure in his life, and it would be cruel for me to drop out now, especially when his brother and sister get to see me.

However, since his Dad has weekends and I have weekends, the sometimes coincide and then I only get the 2 little ones. But the there are also times where he is with either of his two Dads, and Mommy may not get a weekend with him for several weekends in a row.

As far as sitting down together, it is very strange. The last time we had dinner together, was for my daughters birthday, about 2 weeks ago. The kids played in a sandbox almost all the time and we just talked to each other.

My mother said something last night that I think was right on. She wondered if either of us really ever trusted each other with how we felt and would tell something honestly that may expose us to potential hurt. And it's odd because there was one thing that my wife used to do that bothered me, and she never would stop. I realized that instead of telling her that I was hurt by what she did, I tried to say that it was morally wrong...which just made her feel like I didn't think much of her. A few nights ago I told her that what was happening hurt me...and then she stopped it. I was so surprised, and I don't even know how to say thank you for that.

Like you said earlier, I have a lot of learning and growing to do. I know I've changed a lot already.

As for her, she simply internalizes things and starts to build up a wall, instead of talking it out with me. It's sad maybe, the other night we got in a little arguement about lawyers and looking out for each others intrests and it got to the point where she started breaking down and expressing things she had never told me before. She said that I had told her at one point that "I don't love you" and "I don't like". She couldn't tell me when I said that, and I can't recall it or even picture a situation where I would say that. I truly believe she internalized that fear for so long (and I reinforced it unfortunately) that it became such a reality in her mind that actually believes I said it.

ok, I'm rambling now, but it feels good to talk. I am starting to consider maybe working a deal with her. Unfortunately for her, she has very bad credit, and hasn't even worked for the past 2 years. The home loan is under my name because we couldn't include her name and get a loan. When it was time to buy her a new car, again it had to be under my name and not hers. She's going to have to buy our house from me and her car as well, and I can't see how she can do that alone. Her parents are well off and maybe able to use there credit, but I don't know. As well, starting a new job, while going through a divorce, figuring out where you're going to live, and raising 3 kids is more then anyone can handle, no matter how confident and positive you can be. So anyway, I'm considering saying that we should continue living together in the house for another year. She can save up all the money from her job as a downpayment...maybe just buy the car for now to buildup credit. Then she can get a divorce. That gives me a year to show her that things are different and she doesn't have to do this. I know she'll not want to do this, but she may not have much choice. She'll have her guard up, but she could soften up a lot and rethink things. I can tell her that we should get along if we don't talk about us because that's what we do ok right now.

She's really needs to see how bad this is going to be for her before I mention that though.

An excellent plan!

It occurred to me last night that if she call to have lunch with me 'for the sake of the kids', I could do the same thing. So I called and left a message last night to let her know I was only working a half day today so I could make lunch. She didn't respond until this morning by email to ask when and where, so I called her back to work out the details.

Again rambling, but I'm getting tired of email communications, and even phone conversations to an extent. It's too safe, face to face convsersations make everything more real, more honest, and overall better.

Melvin, you aren't looking at it from your wife's perspective. She likes phone and email because it's safe. Safe is good.

Make sure the face to face contact is as benign as the phone calls. Benign has gotten a bad rap as "boring." It's not. It's safe.

I see what your saying. However, it bothers me that we have only sat down face to face and talked about us once in the past 4 months.

I've heard before, and it makes sense that communication is more then just words, it's tone and body movement as well. When you talk on the phone, the listener assumes body momvements to be more what they want to hear. In a letter email, the listener assumes tone and body movement. So given that she wants justification for divorce, I fear she takes the worst interpretation.

I don't know, I guess it helps to say little positive things on the phone or in person to help build up the trust.

So I'm just going to continue rambling on in this thread.

The weekend went pretty well, although no progress that I could hang my hat on. I lunch with the wife and kids on thursday. It was nice but a little ackward. I went to the house to be with the kids on Saturday morning, and as it turns out the kids were still sleeping and the wife had an hour before her hair appt, so we had time to talk.

It was interesting in that every time I come back to the house, I see something has changed. Some new decoration or new furniture, or she's move some of my furniture to the garage. I struggle with this a lot in that the house is still hours, and there is no guarantee she will get the house if/when we get a divorce. I know she's trying to move on, but it feels like she's pushing me out. I really have tried to show her that I appreciate her individuality, but that it's not always easy to watch.

From her side, she takes it as a personal attack. She believes that I don't like any of her opinions on decorating, which is not true...I'm just not void of opinions myself. A perfect example is our kitchen table, which was a square wood table that I brought into the marraige, pretty much the last thing that was mine originally. So when the 3rd kid was coming, we knew we needed a bigger table, and conviently her parents were getting rid of their big glass table. I wasn't crazy about it because I just had never grown up with glass tables and liked what we had. So anyway, she takes that as me dissing her opinions and putting her down. It really had nothing to do with her. I have to admit that I'm picky about things (working on it) but disagreeing with her doesn't mean I think she's wrong. In fact, I've learned to trust her views over my own in most cases. heck, if I have to get a new place, I'll get her opinion on decorating often.

And yes, the table thing happened over 2 years ago, but yet it's still unforgotten. I know part of the problem is how I say things, to make it sound a little demeaning perhaps. I'm working on that and watching judgements in general.

But anyway, we she came back by the house on Sunday evening, I didn't leave right away and we ended up all going out to dinner. Everything was great, like we were still happy. She won't deny that, but she won't let it mean anything either.

Switching topics again, when pressed (which I don't do anymore) she will always tell me that she's happier now, and I think she is in that she doesn't worry about sharing with me or how I might view something she's doing. I get that. But when we are talking honestly, she tells me that she's getting her anti-depression meds upped (like me), she can't sleep well at night (like me), she gets lonely and bored (like me), and is scared about the future (like me).

I understand and believe that she doesn't feel like she loves me anymore, except as the father of her children (not sure I know what that means), but I still believe that if feeling can change once, they can change again. And that perhaps it's not so much that feelings have changed, but that they are buried under years of unresolved hurt, and the cost and risk of digging it up doesn't seem worth it.

But mostly, this weekend taught me that I can keep working on my things and be happy, and appreciate the time I get to spend with kids and the wife and be happy. I know she'll push me away again, probably several times, but that doesn't mean I have to give up until I'm ready to.

Ok, more rambling.

Last Wednesday, I saw a lawyer for the first time. I hated it. Discussing my options when I really didn't want any of them was very depressing. So I talked to the wife afterwards and let her know what I found out and how I felt about everything. We process to trust and be honest through this, so I was.

So on Thursday, I was set not to contact her at all and give myself some space, and I as I could have predicted, she called me at around 8:30 in the morning. She said my younger son wanted to talk me, but I knew better since my son doesn't think about talking on the phone. I knew he was prompted to want to talk to me. So after I talk to my Son, the wife asks me if I'm ok, which I said yes half heartedly, which was pretty honest.

About 10 minutes later, she calls again with my other son wanting to talk to me. I talk with him and then she asks if I'm mad at her. I replied that wasn't the right word for how I felt, followed by awkard silence, then "what do you want me to say?".

Didn't talk on Friday or Saturday. My wife has been skipping church lately, but I've been going even though it's an hour a way. But surprisingly, she's there. And things are very awkward, but polite. She tells me she sent an email yesterday, but I never got it (wrong address). So about 30 minutes after church she sends me the email, which basically says she sorry. Then another email saying she's sorry she was rude to me at Church, she was having a hard time.

No contact on Monday, but on Tuesday I let her know through email that I'm seeing the counselor today. She replies that that's a good thing, which kinda upsets me since she refuses to go. But I let it go.

After my session I live flowers at the front door for her. She sends me an email about an hour to say thanks and they're beautiful...nothing else. I'm kind of annoyed that that is the extent of the appreciation, so I just respond with a simple You're Welcome. She replies back with some unrelated news, basically to change the subject and get this at an ok level for her again.

Still on Tuesday (yesterday), I let her know in email that I'm worried about her and all that she's going through. She says thanks and admits that it's very hard at times, but I don't need to worry. She thinks things will be easier when she's working.

Even this is no infidelity here, it feels like she's somewhat in a fog. She knows that life is going to be tough without me around and she wants me to be around as a friend. But she is in denial about several things. She says that she's happier now, but that is only at times when she's avoiding reality. She has trouble sleeping and is on depression medication. She admits as well to being very nervous about working again. She will tell me that she can never see me as a caring person again, but then when I repeat it back to her, she backs off as she hears how hurtful that is. She says that she refuses to let her father pay for her legal fees out of pride, but will let her mom take her clothes shopping, will ask them to cosign any loan she needs, and will likely ask for money from them later on as she won't be able to make ends meet. She says she won't need a relationship, but no one is that way, and she knows that a mother with 3 kids from two fathers will be a difficult match.

I'm starting to believe that part of the reason she is unable to forgive and move on has to do with her upbringing. For one, her family is well off and tends to never deal with tough issues when you can buy your way out of it. Second, she has told me before that she didn't feel like her step dad expressed love for her very much. He got on her for grades, and that's about it. I wonder if the fact that she was hurt by her father without him apologizing, is preventing her from accepting my apologies. As if she doesn't know how exactly, only to take the place of being hurt, or to remove oneself from the situation. She does know that resentment is not right and that it's hurtful to herself and others, but she feels that her actions are correct anyway.

So that's how I see her, but I've been realize that if I look objectively at myself, I don't look too hot. I've lost about 15 lbs through all of this. Although I'm coming out of depression, I know I'm not living up to what I'm capable of at work, etc. And honestly, I bail her out a bit too much. I want to show her that I care and be consistent, but I have to let her feel what she's doing.

I've learned from here that just because someone doesn't feel love for their spouse anymore doesn't mean that a spark can't be rekindled. It feels like I should just wait till she figures things out, though she may never get there. I've been told that she'll realize her mistake when one of us starts seeing other people, but that will probably be too late.

If you want your marriage back, you need to start becoming more involved, whichever way you can. Get the kids more. Ask if you can bring her groceries. Offer to get her car inspected for her.

Start doing the things you should have been doing; you'll just have to do it from another home. If you stick with this, remain in her field of vision, I can see her wanting you back.

I will tell you, as a female, we females are kind of 'taught' to put ourselves last, to make sure everyone's taken care of, to ignore our needs. It takes its toll, though. That's why so many women divorce when the kids graduate and leave - they realize they've spent 20-30 years being something other than themselves, and they truly DO need to be able to differentiate themselves from their roles. To have time and space to figure out who they are, who they would have turned out to be if they hadn't shut all that down to keep everyone taken care of. What she's saying is definitely a valid point.

But you being aware of it all, and coming here to learn, puts you in a fairly good spot. It's possible she still loves you, just needs this right now. (assuming there's not an affair; then it's all moot)

Either that or maybe it's time for Plan B.

I get really, really mad at spouses who leave but want to be friends. If you can be friends, then you can work it out. (excpetions being spouses who are homosexual)

I think people can be civil, but that's different from asking favors, talking on the phone, etc.

It's hard to know what's they way to go.

I have always been good at looking out for her in terms of service. I've been ok with the kids. The problem was more that she felt I didn't like her and trust her to be her, amoung other things. Doing things is hard right now since my homes are an hour apart right now.


That makes a lot of sense, but I think she sees it more as me keeping her from being her more then anything else. I see why, but I've been working on that. She seems me as selfish and always looking out for me.

For example, in email she just told me that she sees herself as Birdie from the movie Hope Floats, and I told her I didn't see that at all. She got offended saying that I was judging her and trying to figure out what she was indirectly saying at me. I was just making conversation and trying to boost her up a bit as I see Birdie as a somewhat depressed character.


We'll see. There is no affair. One of her friends accussed her of that at the beginning of our separation, and she called me in tears asking whether I thought she was a cheater as it really hurt her. She could have started something since then but I seriously doubt considering her behavior. She does talk with a lot of guys on the internet, but is very open about it. I do see it as flirting sometimes, but I don't know how much of that is my insecurity. When the times comes, I figured out how to say it without blame, and she'll listen, and It still bothers me, then I'll address that.

GG, she is convinced that love that goes away cannot return. So therefore we can be friendly and need to be for the sake of the kids, but nothing more. For the most part she justifies asking favors as for the sake of the children in one form or another.

We honestly don't talk on the phone and do more then be civil accept when we are physically together, then she becomes friendly. It's almost funny as I can't understand why she can want to hug me sometimes, like when I've given her a gift she really likes, but it doesn't mean anything.

I suppose that's a woman thing I just don't get.

I hope you two are right. My gut tells me so, even though there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Giving someone a hug that doesn't mean more than thank you is not a woman thing. I dislike hugs in general. I would NEVER hug my ex. Yuck.

Mel_vin,
you wrote "For example, in email she just told me that she sees herself as Birdie from the movie Hope Floats, and I told her I didn't see that at all. She got offended saying that I was judging her and trying to figure out what she was indirectly saying at me. I was just making conversation and trying to boost her up a bit as I see Birdie as a somewhat depressed character."

Do you see what you did when you wrote back "I don't see that at all"?

She shared some personal knowledge about herself with you, and you told her she was wrong. If you had said that to me, I would have thought 1. you didn't care what I thought 2. You didn't want to hear it 3. You only wanted to hold on to your image of me and not get to know me.

It may have been better if you had asked what she relates to in Birdie, or how she sees Birdie. She may have seen Birdie as tenacious. Or maybe she feels stuck like Birdie.

And for the record, almost nothing makes me feel worse than someone trying to boost me up when I'm just trying to be heard.

hmmm, I see what you're saying. And I actual so that angle myself after she said I was judging her. But seriously, that was the last thing on my mind. I was trying to get to know her better as I didn't understand why she felt that way. I didn't want to pry too much as I know she doesn't trust me that much now, so I was actually trying say something positive, but it came out all wrong.

This is what she said her reasoning was: "I identify with her b/c she's close to her mom. Doesn't always take her advice, but loves her so much. Because she's a good mom even though she messes up a lot. Because she likes where she's from and who she is."

And I just realized I never commented on that to show that I listened. Sometimes I'm such an idiot. Ok, most of the time.

On your 3 points, 1 & 2 are definitely not true, but I worry about #3. I do like the image I have of her and I feel like it's pretty close to the truth. She has said that she feels like I don't like her and she can't be her real self around me. And it's kind of unfair because she has an inaccurate image of me right now. She has an image of who I am so that she won't get hurt by me again, and it's hard to get around that.

The real you, breaking down the false you, and accepting people for all that they are, and trust are such hard things. In many ways it's easy, but it's not.

Well, points one and two may not have been true, but if you had said that to me, that's how I would have interpreted your response.

In other words, it doesn't matter whether it's true or not, right now. What matters is how she interpretted it.

Have you heard of "reflective listening"? It's a skill. Basically, you echo back what the person just said to you. It might feel weird to a "problem solver" because you don't often any solutions or advice or even your own opinion. Yet, it allows the other person to feel heard and validated.

The reason your wife feels that you don't like her is because she doesn't feel that you validate her.

It's pretty interesting that you each feel the other has a false image of you. She feels like you don't really know who she is, and you feel she has a false image of you, or doesn't know who you are.

I think that's an angle that might be fruitful to investigate.

You're very right. I have a hard time seeing how what I say is going to be interpreted.

I've heard of reflective listening, but I haven't been consistent about it.

It's interesting that you use the word validate. She's been saying that she just wanted to feel like she could be herself around me. I'm the one who wants to be validated. Maybe it's the same thing.

She said things pretty well in an email she just sent me:
"The reason that it bothered me so much yesterday that you said you didn't see the similarity at all was because any of my friends or family would see the similarity b/c they know me and who I truly am. It made me feel like you don't know me that well. The parts of me that are what are similar to her are the things that you didn't care for and so I didn't do them as much anymore, like cuero..fishing, etc."

Her saying that breaks my heart. It's true in the impression I gave her, but not in the way I really thought and felt inside.

I'm going to try and respond reflectively.

That's a really important admission. (and one I can so relate to!) You know the solution, right? Communication! Talk, talk some more, and then talk some more. Start talking about everything, until it feels really comfortable and safe to tell each other anything about everything. It may take some getting used to, but the point of being married is being best friends. Talk! Maybe make it a game or something - 'you get 15 minutes to tell me all you know about global warming. Then I'm going to tell you all I know about it. Then we can compare notes.' Get in the habit of doing that. I promise, it works.

I don't know, Cat. Talking is great IF you are on the same page. Sometimes, talking just makes it worse. For example, if there is an unsolvable difference of opinion, talking about it too much will make the chasm bigger. My fiance and I rarely discuss polictics because we see things differently. For us, it's a once a month or less discussion. Any more, and it would start to feel like a debate and we'd just feel badly because the other person thinks we are dead wrong and is trying to change our mind.

So, I'd talk about truly common ground. Stuff where you know you two are in agreement. Anywhere else, I'd keep my mouth shut and my mind open. Do the reflective listening, which isn't talking so much as parroting.

Are you able to see the relationship through her eyes? Do you see what she sees? Or do you see something different?

My ex always thought we had an okay or happy marraige, in spite of me having asked him to go to counseling with me repeatedly, in spite of me backing his bag once as requesting he spend the night somewhere else once, in spite of me telling him I was falling out of love with him, in spite of me telling him I was worried I'd start to hate him. My ex thought it was a phase I was going through, and things would just get better. His big solution to me being miserable in the marriage was for me to stop obsessing.

Part of the reason we saw the marriage differently was I had been doing Plan A for two years. Part of it was that he didn't want to make the changes in his behavior I needed in order to be happy. But, part of it was we simply saw the world and marriage in two completely different ways. Even in the end, his view of our relationship is unreconizable from mine. Unless he could see the relationship as I saw it, we were going to have a hard time fixing it.

But don't you think that's a perfect opportunity to try out some of this 'understanding'? Not having to be right, or prove yourself, but rather opening yourself up to listening to what the other person has to say? And maybe even considering that they may have a better grasp on it than you? I have to say, if my H ever talked to me about some of the things he has deadset convictions about, and honestly stopped and said, 'wow, I never thought about it that way; you may be right,' I'd not only be flabbergasted, I'd be having my love bank overflowing for him to be opening up to MY thoughts and MY ideas for a change. I see it as a great opportunity - not a debate to be won.

Thanks to both of you for this. I feel like I'm really getting a good woman's perspective that I haven't exactly understood yet.



This makes sense, but I think my wife has so many incorrect views of what I think and believe that these things need to be addressed in a small way. Basically that it's ok that we disagree and can accept the differences.


The weird thing is, the fact that I can do this seems remarkably freeing. I am challenged to not disagree when it comes to how she's interpretted my actions and feelings in the past. I don't want to correct her, but if she sees some event in the past as a clear sign that I don't love her, then I have to disagree and explain why I did what I did.


I think I'm starting too. I hope so anyway. I'm seeing just how deep her resentment is at the very least. It's frightening and yet freeing at the same time. I guess maybe it's because I see the gap, but at the same time knowing how she honestly feels and being able to connect with that is wonderful.


That sounds familiar, although I saw it as a phase [b]we /b]were going through, not just her. I knew it took effort to fix, but not such a marraige killer thing. I honestly just could never fathom that divorce was really a possibility. I don't know why I was never scared.


Thanks for sharing this. In my case, I've definitely shown an effort to change behavior, but I'm obviously not there yet. But there is the issue of how deep her hurt is, and how much proof she'll need. As well, there is the concern that the changes required are too different from who I am, and therefore I can't be happy after the changes.

I've tried to tell her several times that I want to change regardless of whether our marriage gets restored or not. This is how I ended the last email today:

"I know that you have no interest in getting back together, but I want to work on being open and honest anyway. For one, I don't want any of this to somehow get carried over into our kids. And two, I'm hoping that you eventually won't feel like you can't be you around me any more. And three, it hurts that that judgemental side or whatever you call it is still in me, and I want to get rid of it, for myself.

I really appreciate you sharing with me about this again."

Hopefully that came out right. Either way though, I'll learn eventually.

Catperson,

If he did do something like that, would you doubt his sincerity at all?

I would think if he showed that you were generally listening and respect your viewpoint and it's merits that would be great, no? But if he just gave up on his own opinions or tried to win you over to his side indescreetly, that can be a huge turn-off.

I find that my wife doubts me a lot because it doesn't match with my past behavior. Maybe it just takes time for her to see a different person.

Exactly so. Women generally take a long time to win over. It WILL take a long time before she believes you're for real.

So are you saying that her hugging me means more then thank you? Sometimes I think that's true with her and sometimes is obligatory.

Sometimes I get the feeling that, although we do have serious problems and serious hurt, her desire for divorce has a lot to deal with not wanting to deal with things, and stubborness regarding going back on her decision. As if her changing her mind would somehow being saying she was wrong and I can go back to bad behavior.

A couple days after she declared she wanted a divorce, I asked her to reconsider and she basically replied that she didn't think it was good to waffle back and forth.

I'm just saying you can't generalize on how women or men behave.

You wrote: As if her changing her mind would somehow being saying she was wrong and I can go back to bad behavior.

A couple days after she declared she wanted a divorce, I asked her to reconsider and she basically replied that she didn't think it was good to waffle back and forth.

That may be the case. Part of the plan is to keep the door open and hopefully find a way your spouse can come back without losing face.

Hey fyi Cat, I'm in Houston too, btw.

Anyway, to update on how things went this weekend, I think pretty well. I took Friday off, so I came by the house to stay with the kids on Thursday night. We talked a bit and it was a little awkward, but not bad. She was going to use a gift card for a massage had given her for mother's day that evening. After she had it, she called me to thank me and tell me it was the best massage she ever had. Kind of surprised me with that.

I took our 2 boys to Schliterbahn on Friday while she stayed with our little girl. I think that was really need for the kids to have guy time and girl time. Maybe for the parents too.

And again when I got home, she hung around for a bit before she left. I know she was meeting a friend later and had time to kill, but she used to leave rather quickly after I'd get there. Oh, and I somehow got a flat tire that night and she offered to stay home so I could take care of things...a nice gesture.

She came back on Saturday for 'the switch' and I did what I could to hang around and ask how her night went and such.

Sunday morning, she called to let me know she wasn't going to church (so we wouldn't run into each other). She also said that she didn't want our tax rebate to go into a savings acct as she thought that I somehow would keep it to myself. I have told her several times that we needed to save the cash for legal fees, but I guess she got scared or something, or needed something to push me a way a bit. No big deal. Again I tried to keep the conversation going by asking how she was doing and specific things she told me about recently. (It kind of felt like High School all over again). And I told her specifically that I've been noticing how beautiful her eyes are lately....she really liked that. And usually avoid that because it sounds cheesy and always fear that I'm going to get the exact color wrong or something, lol.

So overall good weekend. She is going with a friend to San Antonio this weekend, so hopefully that will give her a chance to think about things. I plan to get her a CD to listen to on the way up there, and maybe another giftcard for massage...maybe for her and her friend.

I feel like things are going in the right direction. As you guys have been saying, it will take time, but this was good quality time atleast.

I think I've worked on that aspect a lot, but not recently and probably not enough. It's often hard to do because she gets upset whenever I even suggest that the divorce might not happen...she sees it me not really listen to her.

It really needs to be her idea to get back together, and I think she needs to have to have something concrete to point at as the reason why she wants to stay married.

So here comes another random point. I think I've mentioned that I'm realizing and accepting how judgemental I am, and am working to eliminate that.

And I guess I've always known this but I get this judgemental personality from my mother. And since I'm now leaving with Mom, I get to look into the mirror a lot. I recognize more how things sound, and how hurtful it can be. What I've also noticed is that judgements are usually pretty useless.

Most of the conversations tend to be around my marriage situation, and it always has some component where she mentions that my wife is doing something wrong. I've gotten to the point where it upsets me when she does that, and I end up defend my wife to my mother. I don't always like I should, but I do it more. In the last conversation, I commented that I thought my wife was brave for have the guts to separate, but Ma didn't understand that as she said that my wife obviously didn't make the effort to make things work. I told her that that was a stupid thing to say as not only do you not really know what my wife is going through inside, but it's a completely useless statement to make, as blaming her for not trying isn't going to motivate my wife to try. It just builds resentment and reinforces the idea that I don't really know her. Where is the upside? Only possible benefit is that it keeps the guilt off me, thus making it easier for me to not deal with reality. It won't stop reality from coming though.

Anyway, completely random thought.

The upside is it teaches you that when two adults marry, they shake off the parental control/judgment and become one, and defend each other - to their parents. Your mom is just trying to protect you, I get it. But your allegiance is to your wife, for better or worse. Unless she's a total mistake, and I don't see that yet.

So, things have been relatively quite, but good I think. I haven't talked with her much, but we've had several good emails, joking around a bit too. She got really sick on Tuesday, and I let her know I really felt for her and wanted to help out anyway I could.

She had been planning to drive to San Antonio this weekend, to meet up with a friend from California. However, the friend just canceled on her, saying that she and her hubby had been arguing lately, and she wanted to spend a weekend with him instead. My wife said it was no biggie, but I know better. I called and left a message to say sorry about all that.

I had gotten her two gifts that I was planning on giving her before she goes. One was a CD of a group she likes...driving music. The other was 3 pre-paid massages. She liked the first one so much I wanted her to have some more when she felt she needed it.

This is really hard. I hate watching her have troubles and not being able to do anything about it. I guess this is just all part of it.

update: I ended up telling her about the massages in email. Her reply: "omg, I feel guilty that you did that, but at the same time it makes me so dang happy. Thank you so much!"

That's got me all mixed up for some reason.

Ok, because of her 'guilt', I sent an email last night saying that I wasn't expect a gift to change how she feels or that she's now required to reciprocate. I didn't because I thought it would make her happy. she hasn't responded but I didn't expect her too.

I had also asked her she wanted to go out for a family dinner sometime this weekend, and she said she'd get back to me. It's not because she's got potential plans, she just not sure if she wants to do that, or what I might think it will mean. I'm tempted to tell her nevermind, I didn't intend for it to be complicated at all, but a part of me says I'm just being vindictive or hurtful. I don't like the way this feels though.

Maybe I should just try and make other plans.

"That's got me all mixed up for some reason."

"Ok, because of her 'guilt', I sent an email last night saying that I wasn't expect a gift to change how she feels or that she's now required to reciprocate."

OUCH!! I can understand where you are coming from, but I also know from deep down inside myself that a message like that would not been just to console the other person - it would have been just as much to console myself.

Chances are, the best thing you could have done was give her time to deal with her own mixed emotions while you dealt with yours. Let the positive feelings be there instead of telling her what you were or weren't expecting. With your expectations or l/o she could have had a chance to jump back to any negaives that might have been "looming in the dark" so to speak.

Waiting is hard as heck!! Take it from someone with PTS & seperation anxiety issues. Sometimes it'll make you sweat, cry, get depressed and sleep too much. It'll make you think you are totally CRAZY!! It'll make you doubt yourself, the other person, the whole relationship -- but in the end, if you can just hang on and "let it be" you'll come out better on the other side.

Next time she expresses that she likes something that much (even if she says she feels guilty) just let her know that you're glad she likes whatever it is. That validates her positive emotions and leaves room for her to deal with her own neg. emotions.


"I'm tempted to tell her nevermind, I didn't intend for it to be complicated at all, but a part of me says I'm just being vindictive or hurtful." YEP!! Been there too!! Don't do it if you want things to come out positive in the end.


"I don't like the way this feels though."
Nope!! None of us ever do. Sometimes learning to deal with our own negative emotions is the hardest job of all!! Hang on though -- feelings do change according to circumstances. Try to find something positive to fill in the waiting time. Maybe a goal you could focus on. It has helped me soooo many times when I had to deal with stuff. If you can find a goal (maybe jsut a small one) to focus on, it can help.

Best Wishes,
RMW

Thanks RMW.

Yep, I think I screwed this up a bit. She sent me an email saying that she didn't want to do dinner this week, but maybe next week. I replied that that was ok, and I didn't want her to feel uncomfortable.

She then said that she wasn't uncomfortable (not sure I believe that) it's just that she wanted to stick to her diet this week. The asked in a separate email if she had done something wrong.

I said ok, I was kind of in a bad mood and overanalyzing, projecting my mood onto you instead of what said, or didn't say.

I hate this, I just want to know how she feels instead of guessing all the time. I want to communicate...a lot. Even worse, I know she guesses as to what I'm feeling which can't be good as she's likely to assume bad things to reinforce her opinion that divorce is the right way to go.

I hate the idea that I won't be able to win her back because of stupid little things like this. But then again, I'm not perfect and deserve more of a chance then this, so I can't blame myself too much.

You're right about goals. I also have to keep the big picture in mind, that this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Ok, the day is just getting worse. I still feel pretty crappy today, so called the house thinking that talking to the kids might cheer me up. It didn't. And of course the W asked how I was doing, so I told her. I didn't blame her, I just told her.

Then I did something that's probably stupid. I asked her if she still cared for me. She said she didn't want to talk about it right now (I've heard that a hundred times). She was getting mad. I said ok, I wasn't trying to start anything. Then she quickly said that she did still care for me. A lot. But she didn't want to tell me because she doesn't want me getting frustrating and trying to convince her not to go through with divorce.

Although it felt good to hear her say that, it really doesn't mean that much. Love is a verb, not just a feeling. I'm so tired of feeling like a fool, like she thinks nothing of me. Trying to be there for her when I know she won't be there for me. Knowing that she's starting to go by her maiden name even though I'm still her husband and still paying all the bills. Yes, I'm mostly angry right now.

I am not going to call her back and I'm not going to ask her to change her mind. I am so tempted to tell her to sped up the divorce to try and get a loan for the house so that I can move on. I know that doesn't really fix how I feel though. I don't know what I'm going to do now. I know I need a few days off from her. From all of this. I need to figure out how I'm going to a good weekend dad. How I'm going to respect my possible XW, while I still hurt so much. Figuring out how I'm going to be able to have a live with my kids not around, and then be able to put them first when they are. I'm scared. Really scared.

I know I'm not perfect and I have a lot of work to do on being a good husband and a Daddy, but I don't want to be done yet. I don't want to see my wife and kids suffer and not be able to do anything about. I don't want to be alone, reliving all my past mistakes everyday.

Ok, I'm not venting now.

Bless you mel,

Just reading what you wrote made my head spin and remember some of the crap I've been through and put up with.

But in all of that I did remember something my IC said about control issues - not in me, in my xf. His were generally bad in the controlling dept. but there are instances where you can mean good things to come from what you are doing, but it still a control issue.


"Then she quickly said that she did still care for me. A lot. But she didn't want to tell me because she doesn't want me getting frustrating and trying to convince her not to go through with divorce."

Chances are she feels more "controlled" than "accepted". Maybe - maybe not. But I've seen it and felt that way before myself. It wasn't that the person wasn't trying to do "good", it's just that I didn't feel heard and understood - and accepted - validated by him.

Ain't taking sides, by no means, but maybe you need to look at your FOO and find out if there was anyone that you felt responsible for as you were growing up. And if you find that, learn to see where that affects the way you behave in relationships. It took me a long time to find some of my own issues and get past them. But you can do it.

If you are a reader - CHANGES THAT HEAL was a book that helped me a lot. By Cloud and Townsend

Wish I had more encouraging words to send you way. Hope your weekend goes better than the past few days!

Best Wishes,
RMW

No, you have it right. I get my controlling issues from FOO. I learned about controlling from mother, who hasn't stopped controlling yet. As well, I grew spending a lot of time alone. We move around a lot and I always had to make new friends. I hated when the friends I had did stuff with other friends.

I do see what your saying and I know that she is right. I had no intention of trying to talk her into it, but I did do that a couple times in the past. At this point I need her to tell me that she wants to try, but if she can't tell me how she feels about me, that will never happen. Catch-22.

And you are very right about her not feeling accepted by me. She's said that she doesn't think that I really know her, and she can be herself around me.

We made a promise to each other that we wouldn't do anything vindictive and we wouldn't close accts and things like that without the other being ok and aware. She trusts me on that.
Can I promise to her that I won't try and talk her into staying married to me? I don't want to promise that, and it seems like I'm contradicting myself. I don't want her to think I'm done with her, I want her to get a measure of safety with me.

I can't really even go forward as good parents in divorce like this. When she says pretty much nothing about me, I'm only left with the negative hurtful things she said about me. And those stick in my mind and I feel like she has no respect for me at all.

So can I make her a promise? Tell her that I understand? Should I just do nothing?

Don't promise her anything that you don't believe you can stick to.

I've been rolling it around in my head and so far the only thing that has come to mind is to tell her that you would like to understand. But that you need help in understanding it all. Maybe if she can give you some specifics that make her feel you don't understand or know her- that might be a starting point. Be sure to let her know you aren't trying to push her back into a marriage that she doesn't want but that you would like to understand more so that no matter what you can be a better person for the future.

Do you think that might help? It's the only thing I could think of that would help you in your growing and hopefully not make her feel pushed to do something she doesn't want to do.

Good Luck,
RMW

Oh yea, I have a very controlling mother too. But she tries to control through manipulation. She's 74 and still doing it!!

It's taken me to the age of 42 to finally stand up and let her know that her whinning pulls me down and makes my life harder than it already is.

I grew up trying to be whatever it took to make her (and my dad) happy - to make them proud of me - to get just a little bit of positive attn from them. Never got it and kept hooking up with abusive, neglectful men. Now, I'm beginning to back off on my emotions in the beginning and start looking at what will actually come with the behavior and situations that the guys put forth. And to let them know when something they do won't work for me.

For a first time, I'm actually considering myself as equally important in a relationship at the beginning.

Again -
GOOD LUCK!
RMW

You are equally if not more important at the beginning. Friends keep telling me that I need to take care of myself, but I keep thinking I'll just worry about that later. Probably need to take care of myself so that I'm not a pushover.


So she just called me, wanted to know if I was ok. Told her I was (because I was) and that I understood what she was saying. Went into detail, pretty much exactly what we talked about above. She said I didn't need to say that, but I told her I did because I don't want her or anyone else to not feel accepted or safe around me. I then said that I wanted to promise her that I wouldn't be controlling again, but laughingly said I didn't know if I could 100% keep that promise right now. I think she understood.

I was hoping she'd start telling me how she felt, but that didn't happen. Maybe someday.

edit: Oh, almost forgot, I even told her that went I got nothing from her, I had to fall back on the negative things she said about me...and she understood that.

I didn't read this post before I got the phone call or replied. What you said make sense, although I think I really have a pretty good understand of why she doesn't want to stay married. It's just that I know that she is holding back from me, that she has a wall. That even if I stop bad behavior, she won't accept it.

I want to know how she feels for two reasons. One because it's the only way she can ever really trust me with her heart again. Two, because it will encourage me to keep trying.

lol @me responding to myself.

Anyway, I got served today. Guy came to my mother's house and handed me the papers. It wasn't too bad, but I saw that the guy had a photograph of me. I didn't like that as it made me feel like a criminal or something. But I was expected it to be delivered so it wasn't a surprise or anything.

Since my wife and I had promosed to trust each other and be honest about everything in this. I sent her an email simply saying "I got served the divorce papers today." Nothing more.

She replied "Okay. Are u okay?" I've seen that response often enough to feel that it's less about concern for me as it is her trying to get rid of guilt feelings. She knows that I will likely tell her I'm not mad or something, so she can go on ok. But I didn't want to say that an assume she was feeling anything. I didn't want to lie and said it was ok, as if I was ok with divorce. This would help her guilt feelings and make her feel like what she's doing is right. I didn't want to say I was falling apart (because I wasn't) as this would just make me look weak and again, strength her resolve. I wanted to just tell her the truth.

So I said "I'm not happy about it, but I'm not falling apart if that's what you're asking". Pretty fair and honest I think (I hope). I don't think that was mean, was it?

She replied back "I'm not sure what I was asking. Sorry." I can't tell if she's mad or what, so I won't guess. And I feel like this is where I should end this conversation. I don't want to tell her it is ok, and I don't want to take responsibility for the consequences of her actions. And I don't know what she's sorry for. Sorry for asking or sorry for divorcing me. I don't even know if that's an apology, or a show of sympathy.

I feel like I should let this go, and go back to idle chit-chat when the time is right a couple days from now. Of course, she'll call me before then...she always does.

When she calls for idle chit chat, what does she like to talk about? Converstation generally is one of a woman's needs.

When you two talk again, before it's over, you might throw in that you love her and wish you two could work on things. That you are working on yourself.

Just a thought! gotta go for now. Been cutting yards since 2pm & I'm sore and need to soak some of it out before I get ready to go out tonight! I'll check back in later to see if you posted again..

Best Wishes,
RMW

My only thought is that, while you want to be a good Plan A, you don't want to me a milquetoast. If you're hurting, tell her so. If you're mad, tell her so. If you're ok, tell her so. Honesty and conversation are you main goals right now.

You're absolutely right cat. I talked with her briefly on IM today and thinks were ok. She thought I was upset with her,which I wasn't but it's not my fault she felt that way. I told her she was special to me and left it at that.

I feel rather inspired today, so it might be a good time for a love letter of sorts. We'll see.

So I got an email from her this morning. Basically, she said that she knew I was hurting and she was hurting too, but she didn't like the short responses I was giving her. She felt as if I was trying to make her feel bad and guilty, and she couldn't let me do that to her. If this continued, she didn't want to talk to me.

It didn't bother me because I knew that wasn't my intention at all, any guilt she was feeling was her own. So I wrote a long email, but my computer crashed before I finished, so I just called her.

She was cautious, but I explained that I was short because I didn't want to say anything stupid or that wasn't accurate. I didn't want to assume anything about how she was feeling or what she meant when she asked if I was ok. We had a short IM conversation last night that I ended quickly, but I did that because I said something nice about her, and didn't want her to feel obligated to respond in kind.

She understood that, and I furthered by saying that we needed to talk to more in order to avoid this kind of stuff, not less, and she was ok with that. I told her that I wanted to promise her I wasn't going to try and convice her to change her mind anymore, but that I knew it was going to be hard. But at the very least, she could know that if I started that, she could cut me off and tell me what I was doing. She seemed to like that too.

We then talked about the kids a bit, and I went on to be sweet on her for a bit, telling her how much I care. She actually thanked me for that. At one point she had said something nice to me (can't remember what) at which point she followed up that she wasn't changing her mind. I took that as a good sign.

Anyway, it was a great conversation. We seem to really communicate and make some positive progress, towards trusting each other at the very least. I hope it can continue.

edit: And yes, I did tell her that I loved her when I hung up. I don't think that bothered her either.

Awesome, good job!

Ok, time for another update. Things between the wife and I have been going well the past couple days. We've talked each date about little things, and it was very friendly and comfortable. I've been as open and honest as possible, but not steered the conversation in the direction of 'us'. The only thing I really said that I wasn't planning on watching every Rockets game this season (I'm a big fan) because it reminds me of not spending time with her on weeknights. I just don't want to relive that.

She is having a very hard time. She said her sleeping is getting worse, and she is under constant stress. Her back, which has always given her trouble, and her neck are really hurting her.

Last night, I started falling off my high of having good conversation. Feeling lonely, realizing that the good conversations we had is likely just a drop in the bucket. And the feeling has continued today. On top of that, I've got to sign a contract with my lawyer and the amount of what it's likely to cost makes me feel like an idiot. Wondering if I should try and find a cheaper lawyer. I don't even want to do this!

I sent her a chit chat email this morning. No response yet. And I'm starting to worry a little bit, but it's probably all in my head.

All I want to do is just go home and hold her, tell her that we can work through all this together. Let's just let it all go for now. Of course, can't do that. It is my weekend with the kids, which is wonderful, but unfortunately, my eldest will be with his real dad.

I have to admit that probably may favorite part of seeing my kids is getting to see and talk with my wife during 'the exchange'. I know I can be fine on my own, but that doesn't change the feelings inside.

Well, I think I finally have a post that results in a question.

This was my weekend with the kids, 2 of the 3 anyway. My eldest was with his birth Dad this weekend. Anyway, things had been going well this week. When I came to the house I gave my wife a CD of a group she likes as a random gift. She liked it but seemed uncomfortable. We had a hug, not much. She hung around for a little bit longer then left. I reached to give her another hug as she left, and was definitely uncomfortable. I basically got the 'side hug'...she turn a shoulder away from me as we hugged.

That bothered me. I hate the side hug. To me it shows that you aren't comfortable and don't really want to hug, but didn't want to be rude or something. So I really felt like I didn't want to put myself out there for a hug, just to get some form of rejection. I almost always initiate the hugs, so I didn't want to do that, atleast for right now.

She was going to run some errands and come back a few hours later to drop off groceries. She did, and we were polite, but I didn't go out of my way to hug her and she seemed fine with that.

I had a really good weekend with my 2 little ones. We had a lot of fun together. Unfortunately, my 4 year old boy is starting to understand the situation. The wife and I had planned to meet for dinner on Sunday night, and when I told my son we were going to go about 30 minutes before we left, he asked if I was leaving afterwards. When I told him I had to, he broke down and cried, told me he didn't want me to go, and basically begged me to stay for the next 30 minutes. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to even get him in the car.

When we met my wife at the restaurant, he was still breaking down and she saw exactly what was going on. He recovered somewhat and was ok at dinner. I tried to be upbeat, but I felt pretty bad for what my son was going through, and wasn't very good company. At one point, my son pointed at me and asked his mom if she liked me. She said she liked me a lot, and all I could do was look away.

So anyway, we end dinner and put the kids in the van. I'm expecting nothing at this point, and she was all the way around the van and asks me if she can give me a hug (I was a little surprised, though I probably shouldn't have been). I told her yes, of course. And this time it was a real hug, not a side hug.

I later emailed and her and let her know that I wasn't expecting the hug, thus my reaction, and that my son's behavior was really getting to me.

She replied that we always hug, so she didn't know why I would be surprised. I had no response that, as I didn't want to argue over hugs.

Didn't feel like this was a good spot, so I called and further explained that none of this was designed to make her uncomfortable or feel bad. She told me that our son was really tired as a means of explaining his behavior, and I had no response to that. She later clarified that she wasn't saying that he didn't mean what he said, and I really didn't want to get into any further. I think we ended on an ok note.

So anyway, I was really bothered by my wife's behavior. It seems like she was really trying to block out the truth of how this was effecting her kids. As well, I'm figuring out that she has a certain comfort level she wants to keep me in. Her reactions are based on keeping me in that comfort level. Not so close (side-hug), but then when she's feeling guilty, she gives me the full hug. She'll also get a bot upset with me if she has any sense that I'm accussing her of something.

I'm pretty tired of this. I don't feel like she will ever open up. She can't even comfortably tell me how she feels. I know she is hurting a lot and believes that that will go away with time. Probably blames me for a lot of what she feels. She told me that she knows that I think it's her fault we're getting a divorce, which isn't true and I have said that repeatedly.

Right now, I don't feel like I'm doing anybody any good. I don't trust her, atleast when it comes to a display of emotion, and I don't think I could say anything to her that she would listen to. I imagine she'll find a way to blame me for most everything.

So the question is, should I keep on trying to be the husband I should be, even though there is a good chance she will never see it? Should I just let go and let her do her thing, while still being nice. She'll accuse me of trying to hurt her then too. Not sure what I should do.

I think you have her pegged pretty well. She avoids bad feelings, even if the avoiding hurts others.

I think at this point you need to be protecting yourself. You're having too many...unhappy thoughts about her, and if that keeps up you'll just stop liking her. Can you try to reframe your mind back around to you? Be a little selfish for awhile, til you get to a healthier state of mind. From there, you can look at the two of you in a better way.

I understand what you're saying, and I hadn't thought about backing away so that I can actually like her better. I have to admit that I fear if I back off too much, there will be nothing holding us together.

I think what happens as I hold up pretty well, we get a little closer, she backs off some, so I do the same, usually a bit hurt, and she pulls me back in. The result is that we get little consistency, she gets to keep her reasons for divorce and yet still have me around for support, and I get very little of what I want.

I know I don't need much and I would have been ok last night, if it wasn't for my son. We are actually ok today as we've been communicating well with my lawyer visit and her paying the bills, asking me questions. But it still feels like somewhat of her attempt to get to status quo.

She is starting work pretty soon, and that's when things are going to get absolutely crazy for her. I need to be ready for that and make sure I'm consistent, not letting her bother me one way or the other.

MV, I apologize for the threadjack.

Oh, and MV, I'm going to move my reply about my fiance over to this thread.

My fiance is moderately active. He goes to one show a year, the one girls' father can't make. M (fiance) has input into discipline and just recently will sometimes crack the whip. My girls huff, but don't really resent it. M does watch the girls when I have meetings or such at night, and when logistics mean I have to be in two places at once, he has done drop off or pick up. I'd say his involvement was on par with a workaholic dad. YD actually said that if her dad died M would adopt them. I said a lot would depend.

FWIW, Mel, I know when I was in mother-bear mode, I would call my girls "my children" to their dad even when we were married. I know it hurt his feelings, and I regret it. I think the "my children" comes from something deep and instinctual in mothers. We have to work to overcome it, and unfortunately, the 80's and 90's sent a message to women that fathers just weren't that important, giving us little incentive to control the instinct. I think this is starting to shift, and hopefully women everywhere will stop and think that the children are also their father's children. And when step-parents and children form a close bond, that bond needs to be honored. I personally think in the event of a divorce, parents should continue to honor any bond between steps. It's the least we can do for our children.

Well, the backing away as I understand it is the Plan B philosophy. If you keep working and working and working, and get nothing, you can start losing your feelings for that person; human nature. Why I suggested it. Don't know if it will help the relationship, but it will help you, IMO. What you're describing, your dance, doesn't sound healthy, IMO.

I agree that this dance isn't helping much. I will say that I do feel like I'm getting better overall. I guess I'm learning not to get so high on the highs, or so low on the lows. I recognize why she does what she does, and it's allowing me to get more consistent. Perhaps I should pull away a bit, but still maintain some level of consistency. She is tough, and if I pull back too much, I know I'll lose whatever ground I've made.

And honestly, I still feel like she's going to blow up one of these days, and this emotional wall she's defending will fall apart. I want to make sure I'm still around when that happens. This are getting tougher with her starting work and the divorce ramping up. She's going to struggle even more then she is now.

Well, can't say that a parent should never use the word 'my' when refering to their children. Moms and Dads both do it, but it can make a parent, especially step, feeling unneeded at times. Honestly, this wasn't an everyday thing for me when we first got married, just a couple big times. And it was never much of a problem after our first child together was born. I think she didn't want her first son to feel like he wasn't a full member of the family.

As for continuing the bond, it's going to be somewhat more challenging. I have no legal rights and will have less time since he will split time 3 ways. However, if I can live close (hopefully same neighborhood or even street), then we won't be stuck to every other weekend or something complicated, and then there will be less chance of fading away. The best thing is that the birh father understands that I've played an important part in his son's life, and doesn't want that to end. He also gets along well with my kids, so there is a good chance we may go out on outings with all the kids and the 2 Dads, but he and I are very different people. Not sure how well that will work out. Hopefully, I won't have to find out.

I do hope you never need to find out if you and the other dad will get along. Good luck. Oh, and I do think this is a place where they could change the laws.

I don't know how I missed this thread before but I thought I'd let you know that, at least in my jurisdiction, step parents have visitation rights (and also child support obligations). However most situations that I know of there isn't an active biological dad in the picture (dead beat dad laws are pretty new here). My DS is grown so neither of us has custody but WstbxH had to pay 1/2 his college tuition (actually that was a negotiation we came to - technically he was supposed to pay me CS and 1/3 of tuition based on DS continuing to reside with me and our income differences but I waived CS in exchange for a lump sum of 1/2 the tuition). CS can apply up to age 21 if they are still in school. If DS had been younger, WstbxH would be entitled to visitation. As it is now, DS is old enough to decide if and when to visit his step father.

DS's biological father (my first XH) abandoned him as an infant and has never been part of his life until just recently he found him on Facebook.

Tabby, did your husband adopt your DS? If I had adopted my DS, then yes, I would be in the same situation. If DS's birth father wasn't around anymore for whatever reason, then I probably would have tried to adopt. For one thing I would have wanted to change his name. Right now, it is "wife's maiden name"-"birth father's name". I wanted my name to replace the maiden name...and that way get my wife to un-hyphenate her name as well.

I don't know that I would have adopted for the sake of custody in case of a divorce. I wouldn't have paid any legal child support for him, but I would (and will) be paying for his needs as well, as I can. I don't know if his birth dad has any obligation towards college, but I probably will be contributing to that. It's a long ways a way, so I can't say.

As for changing the law, I don't know about that. In my case, I don't think it would be fair for me to need to pay CS, since CS is already provided. Except for maybe for the difference between what DS is getting and what other children are getting. But then, that would imply I get a portion of visitation/custody rights?

I guess the crux of it would be on what kind of relationship has developed, and who would be the judge of that? I guess I would say that adoption for a child who's parent you are married to, and thus are already a legal guardian should be very easy. Or even then, I would think that visitation rights/CS can be done if both parents are for it.

It's really just a mess any way you slice it.

No he did not adopt DS. We settled our LSA on our own though I consulted with a lawyer and had him check the agreement before we signed. There was no question about Wstbx's responsibilities and rights as a step father. The main difference in my case was the complete absence of his biological father. Also, Wstbx came into our lives when DS was very small (just over a year) and we were married when DS was 5. DS was just turning 19 when we legally separated, so WstbxH is the only dad he ever new. Check with your lawyer. You are a significant adult in that child's life. I'm sure even your WW would support you maintaining a relationship with that child. It's also entirely possible the biological father will too, assuming there's no bad blood between the 2 of you.

Edited to add, my DS's name was never changed - he still has his biological father's name. I took Wstbx's name when we married. Created confusion over the years but we managed.

Regarding CS, I don't know how they would do it if there is already CS being paid (unless there is a gross difference in income or something). Around here, CS does not equal visitation (one can be ordered to pay but not have any visitations rights whatsover - for example a child abuser still has to pay CS but may not be allowed to see his children due to his crimes). Again, talk to your lawyer and find out your local laws on this.

Yea, I've talked with the lawyer and there is no way that I can legally have visitation rights, nor any way I can be required to pay CS. Pretty sure that's Texas Law. I have support from both parents to continue the relationship. His Dad knows that I'm the guy that's been taking him to baseball practices and such, treating him as if he was my own, which he really is now, IMO. My wife knows that this separation has been hard on him too. At the age of 7, he's presented arguements to the both, saying if one of us would just apologize, get over it, makeup, and just move on.

We married when DS was almost 3, and we had dated for a year. The biological father was never married to, nor living with my wife. I don't know if it was a one-night stand or a short relationship, but it was over pretty much before she even knew she was pregnant. It's unrelated, but part of the reason things happened that way is she was under a lot of stress at the time, as her brother was dying of cancer. It was not a typical behavior thing.


Anyway, I anticipate that although I wouldn't be living there under the divorce scenario, I stil will be the Dad who does practices and such. His biological father never really did that. He is active when it's his weekend, but nothing outside of that. That may change since I'm not there as much, but I think I'll get whatever relationship I make the effort to have with him.

Unrelated, I really feel for my wife if this goes through, as far as relationships go. It's going to take one hell of guy to want to be in a relationship with a single mom, with 2 Dad's in the picture. And honestly, that kind of guy is probably not the type she'd be interested in.

There isn't much to update. Things are pretty much the same. She called me this morning to ask about a credit card, and then tried to make some small talk. I enjoyed the conversation, but now I feel skeptical. I almost wanted to call her back this afternoon, but I want to see when she will call again. Maybe it's not good to test her, but I guess I just want to make her wonder a bit and see what kind of effort she wants to put forth.


Also, I have a question. Several weeks ago, we had an arguement that got emotional and mushy at the end, and on good terms. I hate to say it, but I like those conversations as that is often the time when I hear some things from her, about how she feels, that she doesn't want to talk about. In this specific case, she told me how she didn't think I loved her, and said that I had even told her I didn't love her.

Now, I have a bad memory admittedly. I can forget what happened last week, even when told what happened, there's a chance I don't remember. But this is something that I would never say, and certainly something I'd remember. I asked her when I said that and said she couldn't remember when, just that I had.

I suspect that she has feared that I didn't love her so much, and not wanting to really talk about it, that she somewhat mad her fears come true. Perhaps she dreamed that I said that, and she has somehow believed that it really happened.

Does this makes sense? Also, I have done nothing about this except to immediately deny it, should I bring it up? I think if I do, she will avoid the topic at all costs. I think there is alot more there, she just isn't all that comfortable with bringing it up. Plus she may claim that she is already told me everything, and me asking just proves I wasn't listening. There is more there though, I know it. I think I just need to be patient and hope it comes out in time.

I love those types of conversations also. But sadly for me they come few and far between. Maybe 5-6 of them in my 17 years of knowing my wife. It is very hard to get her to open up. I wish I knew how to get her to do it more often. It is only on these rare occasions do I get a glimpse of what she is thinking or how see is or has been feeling.

Not knowing your wife I can not say how she will respond to you bringing it back up. If you think she we respond in kind than I would definitely try to use it to your advantage.

"Can I talk to you about something personal that is bothering me? I am so grateful for the conversation that we had (at such and such time). I really did learn a lot about myself and how I have made you feel over the years. But something you said has been tearing at my heart. You told me that you feel like I didn't I love you. And you said that I had even told you that I didn't love you. I know my actions in the past have made you feel like I didn't not love you and I may not have told you that I loved you much either. But I want you to know that I have always loved you and I still do love you. And if I did by chance at one time of anger or ignorance tell you that I did not love you then it was not during a moment of honesty and most likely out of anger or resentment. I am so very sorry that I ever made you feel unloved. I hope someday you can forgive me for my blindness and ignorance. You are a beautiful women and I do love you."

Don't try to provoke her by trying to get details (time, date, place) when you supposedly told her you do not love her. That is not important. It really does not matter whether you said it or not. It is not going to change anything. What is important is that she knows that you do love her and you always have and you are sorry that at times she felt like you did not.

nugget, I am thinking along the same lines as you are. And I have said most of the things you mentioned, repeatedly. But it has not gotten her to open up much. But she has some.

What I'm wondering now, is that maybe getting her to open up all the way isn't the answer. I mean, I do have several pieces of the puzzle, and maybe that's all I need. Instead of getting her to show me the full picture, maybe I just need to cherish the pieces, put what I have together and look forward to seeing the rest of the picture.

One things for sure, I appreciate the little pieces a lot more then I used to. As I mentioned in hubs thread, I have a tattoo from several weeks ago. I also mentioned that I just got off the phone with her. During our phone conversation, I mentioned that during the start of our separation, I wasn't all that stable and I did some things I regret. She asked me if I regretted my tat. She asks because she fears that I did it to try and impress her, which I honestly didn't. I told her no with no hesitation, and she told me then she still thought it was 'pretty'. She then told me that she got one of hers colored in.

That exchange, though not much made me happy. Not only did she believe what I said and complimented me, but she opened up about something that she usually didn't want to bring up. It's a small step but it's something.

nug, you and I want to get it all out on the table, but just because we're that way doesn't mean that's what everybody else is? Maybe I need to learn to appreciate the pieces.

I don't know.

mel_vin for sure cherish the pieces and use them to help you to move forward. I know the few little pieces that have been thrown my way have made a big impact on how I view my wife. It made me understand how much she has been hurting over the years. I, just like you, long for the full picture, but honestly I have my work cut out for me, with just the little pieces that I have now. The little pieces pointed me in a direction that I am so grateful for. Without them I would still be lost.

nugget, I've got a question for you. If I'm reading your sig right, you're anticipating a divorce. If you end up with a divorce is that when you give up, or do you plan on fighting on?

I don't plan on quiting till I don't want the marriage anymore, no matter what my legal status may be. I don't want to regret anything.

mel_vin my divorce was final the end of July 2007. I just past the one year mark. I have far from given up and do not plan on it anytime soon. Honestly, neither has my XW. She shows me that with her actions. We are spending more time together now, than we had 2 years prior to the divorce. We are far from were I hope that we will be one day, but I am putting my best side forward and doing all I can to make the necessary changes in me. I have thought about dating, but then I say to myself. I would rather put forth the time and effort trying to date my XW and getting back with her, then to go out and start from scratch with some total stranger. I still have a ways to go and at times I get frustrated, but I push forward. I just need to find that special thing that is going to get through to her and get her to want to try again also. For now we hang out and have fun when we can. For me that is 100% better then no interaction with her at all. Only time will tell where we land, but for now time is on my side.

nugget, that sounds absolutely wonderful. I commend you for not giving up. I hope I can persevere as well as you have. I'll think of you when I get discourage.

Today was actually a rather amazing day. My wife and I talked alot, for an entier hour on the phone. I don't think we've done that without arguing since the separation. And yes, she opened up a lot and I feel like I got a big puzzle piece. I can't really get into what we talked about, but it resulted in us being committed to trust each other more. Not just for the kids but for us.

It left me feeling absolutely wonderful. I felt like we really cared for each other. Not to the point that she would cancel moving to divorce but very good. I felt renewed in my efforts.

However, I'm feeling rather lonely as well as I'm dying to talk with her again. But that's the way it works, I suppose. I need to just keep working on me and wait for things to get there. We shall see.

It is the way it works. Keeping doing the stuff you need to do. Be patient. Scared birdies don't fly over to someone who's flapping his arounds all around, no matter how good the food is.

I really need to keep that in mind. There has been alot of 'action' this weekend and I have the temptation to go in for the kill, so to speak.

In fact some of the things that have happen, I need to talk about but don't feel like I should publicly. In fact, I don't really feel like I can tell family or friends here. I feel like I've been talking too much lately, but I do need to share this with someone to make sure I'm understanding things correctly.

nugget can we have an email conversation? If it's alright with you, email me at durrdk@comcast.net.

Thanks.

Shot you over an email. Drop me a line I would be more then willing to chat with you.

I think I just kinda screwed up a little bit. The wife started worked yesterday, and I've been very supportive. We've talked everyday since thursday, and had quite a few long conversations where we talk about nothing important. Olympics, etc.

Well, she got off work, and called me, and we talked about daycare and some mutual friends of ours. Anyway, towards the end of the conversation, I said "Hey we've been talking a lot lately". I don't know why I said that. She replied, "well, yea, there's a lot changing right now."

I know that doesn't like something stupid, but I don't know if she realized we were talking so much, and may now think I'm getting too close and start backing off again.

But then again, I shouldn't feel bad for saying that. Whatever. I'm probably overreacting. But it is frustrating that I have to watch what I say so closely, and that she is so closed off that something like that could possibly push her away.

mel, your John Eldridge quote is really quite appropriate for what you just said.

Yes, but at the same time, I feel like I was being a tadbit manipulative. In essense, I was saying that the fact that we were talking alot should give you cause to reconsider your belief that we can't get along without arguing. That was in a part of my mind.

But you have no control over what she thinks and feels. You can only control how YOU feel. So if you feel confident and happy talking to her, say so. Throw away the eggshells, 'k?

hmmm, yes and no. Yes, I shouldn't let it get me down. However, I do want to get better at avoiding triggers. And I know what my intentions were, and I don't want to be that way. I guess it wasn't so much what I said as much as why I said it. But I shouldn't expect myself to do everything right all the time.

If she wants to make things bad between us, that's her call.


And completely unrelated, I wanted to put a part of this in my sig, but I don't want to take down my current sig and a part of it just doesn't do it right. So I'm just going to post it.


Looking into your eyes I know I'm right
If there's anything worth my love it's worth a fight
We only get one chance
But nothing ties our hands
You're what I want
Listen to me
Nothing I want
Is out of my reach

(I'M FREE)
HEAVEN HELPS THE MAN who fights his fear
Love's the only thing that keeps me here
You're the reason that I'm hanging on
My heart's staying where my heart belongs
(I'M FREE)

Running away will never make me free
And nothing we sign is any kind of guarantee
But I wanna hold you now
And I won't hold you down

I'm shaking the past
Making my breaks
Taking control
If that's what it takes
-Kenny Loggins - I'm Free (Heaven Helps The Man)

So I've been reading a lot of posts on here about forgivenss, and it's really sunk in for some reason. Especially the part about it being a choice, but that doesn't take away the pain.

And then I went back and read some old emails where my DW spilled out everything that I hurt her with. Reading those again, made me realize that that was only 6 weeks ago, not really a ton of time to recover from those, despite my best intentions. So that's a good reason not to get discouraged right now. It's not that my efforts aren't good, it's just that it needs more time to bake in.


And I also saw in a post where you can not forgive someone who hasn't asked for forgiveness. My wife will often say she is sorry when she sees/hears me sad/depressed after a visit with the lawyer or something like that. She says she's sorry to hurt me. I never say anything. What would I say? You can't apologize for something you're in the middle of doing or about to do.

I usually read it as not an apology, but a show of sympathy. Perhaps I should respond with something like "thanks for caring"?

It was a fun weekend. I got to the house in the afternoon and took down the trampoline (it was falling apart and dangerous) before any body got there. We she came in with the kids from daycare, everything was pretty good. One thing that surprised me was that my wife asked if I could 'put an elbow in her back'. She has a very bad back and I used to do that for all the time. This is the first time she has asked since the separation.

On Saturday, I took the kids down to Kemah boardwalk and had a blast. The wife called during to talk, basically because she was littl bored.

On Sunday, when my wife came to the house and it was my time to leave, my two little ones (eldest was with his Dad this weekend) cried and cried for me not to go. They did this the last time too, but not in front of mommy. We did our best to settle them, and I left with them being somewhat ok.

I emailed my wife on the way back to Mom's place to let her know that I know that wasn't easy for her. I wanted to say more, but I couldn't say more without guessing how she was feeling. But I was hoped she understood that I wasn't celebrating the kids making her feel guilty or anything. I didn't want to say that it was all ok, but just that I was concerned.

She email me back a little later and said that she knew it was hard for me too. Then she asked me a question about health insurance that her lawyer wanted to know. That kinda annoyed me as I felt like she was throwing up a wall, but I guess she needed to ask the question sometime.

I am tempted to write an email letting her know that I'm ok, that I feel good about myself and what I can control, and what I have to let go. I feel for her and the kids, but I don't worry about what I cannot fix. All I can do is prepare myself for when I can. But I feel like if I say that, it's going to come off as me saying I don't need her or something. Seems better to say nothing right now, especially with our anniversary coming in less then a week.

FYI, I'm changing my screen name to dkd to avoid any confusion with Melody.

Now I am confused.

So last night was really horrible. I went over to the house to take my boys out to dinner. When I got there, the wife was angry, but not at me. Without getting into details, my wife has been involved with something for a year or so now that really bothered me. No not an affair. Anyway, recently this come back to basically bite her in the butt, and she's been upset about it. She has recognized that what she did hurt me as well, but I honestly have felt like she really didn't understand how I felt, she just didn't want the guilt. Maybe I'm selfish about that, I don't know.

So anyway, she's upset about more fallout from her mistakes, and I'm listening to her. Feeling like crap because there is nothing I can do to help her, and feeling like she doesn't understand how this made me feel. I am so tired of feeling helpless.

Dinner with my boys is somewhat wasted as I can't get this off my mind and enjoy being with them. We come back to the house and are eating ice cream at the kitchen table, with my wife and daughter also hanging out there. My wife then asks my eldest if he told me what he wanted to tell me. I figure he wants a toy or something like that. He said no, and then tells me that he gets uncomfortable when I get angry. I can appreciate this, but it's covered territory that I've been working on, and I really feel like I've been setup. I understand that my son needs to say what he feels, but she could have warned me, let it go till a better time, or anything other then prompt him to say that right then and there.

I pretty much lost it then. I try and step out for a minute, and then realize that it's just time for me to go. I start saying my goodbyes and my wife asks if I'm ok and I just shake my head. Then she gives me that "you're an a**hole look" and respond by letting her have it with alot of things I really don't mean.

She calls me before I've even driven out of the neighborhood, and we pretty much talk through it. I admit that I understand why it was important, and she admits that it looked like she was setting me up. We talk some more about the original issue that she's dealing with, and she asks why I just can't forgive her and move on, and I explain that it's for the same reason that she can't forget about things I did years ago.

She told me that I never tell her that I miss the good times that we had, and I tell her that it's because she has been so insisted that the past was horrible that I didn't see that as something she would appreciate, even though I do miss the good times.

We basically end on an ok note, but I think we're both drained and frustrated.

I sent her a note that I was going to give her on Saturday (our anniverasary), primarily because it does thank her for the past 5 years, and I didn't want her to think the note was a reaction to what she had just said.

I sent another email this morning going over some business, and I ended up getting into a few things:

Last, I know over apologizing bugs you, but I feel horrible about getting upset yesterday. It was not fair to you and I broke one of the promises I had made to myself. And I do think that some of what we talked about yesterday needed to be said, but now it's mixed up and unclear because I lost it. It's very frustrating to me.

That said, I did think about what you said regarding 'rubbing it in' when you apologize for something. You're right that I'm doing that, and I've done that before. I don't always do that, but I have, and I thought about why. I guess it's because I don't feel like you understand how I felt, and I'm afraid to just come out and tell you, so I look for ways to get it out without exposing myself, so to speak. I felt insecure about myself, that I wasn't good enough for you. I wasn't funny, I wasn't edgy, I was boring, and unattractive. I felt like no matter what I did, I wasn't going to measure up and was going to be a disappointment to you. It doesn't really matter why I felt that way, I just did.

I know that those things are not true, and that I've always been good enough, the same way that you have always been good enough. It's all just lies. Both of us are really great people. We are smart, attractive, caring and thoughtful people. Just look at our kids. But now there is all this trash between us. To be honest, a part of me was very happy when this stuff came crashing down. That was one less thing between us.

You mentioned that I never told you the things that I missed about you, and the times we had. If you had a few hours, I could tell you. But you should know that last week was one of my favorites. I really liked seeing you get excited about work, and sharing some of that with me.



So I need a break. I'm not sure I'm thinking clearly anymore, and I just don't know what I have in me right now. I want to give unconditionally, but I can't give from an empty tank. I still feel like deep down she loves me, but is afraid to let it out. I suppose that doesn't even really matter.

Sounds a bit like you were set up. But, I see a little bit of silver lining in it. At least she is trying (in her own way) to help you out, by getting others to acknowledge that you have a problem with anger. Even if she was using your son to get her point accross. To me it shows she does care. If she did not she would not have brought it up. I am sure it would be a lot easier for her to jst tell herself "He is just and anger jerk and always will be. He will never change. Screw that a** hole." I am sure you know you have a ways to go with your anger. You let it get the best of you last night. She knows that anger is something that has driven the 2 of you apart and she wants you to curb that desire that you have to resort back to anger. That is why she brought it up. If she did not care, then the anger issue would stay in the dark and never be brought up.

Her asking you for forgiveness is also a good sign to me that she is trying a little bit and she is trying to make amends with you. Forgiveness can be a hard thing to give. Especially to someone that is or has been very close and important to us, like a spouse. But, forgiving is a bigger gift for ourselves then it is for the one we are forgiving. Resentment can be crippling to you and how you treat or love others. Sometime in the future you will need to forgive her.

Resentment

By BILL FERGUSON'S

When you have a resentment, a major part of you closes down. You become bitter and less able to express your love. You lose your aliveness and your joy for life. You put up walls of protection and you make your life more difficult.

Letting go of a resentment is not for the benefit of the other person. Letting go of a resentment is for you.

Remember that forgiveness is for you, not the other person. Forgiveness is a choice. Let go of your resentment and get on with your life.

i'm confused. i've read most but not all of the thread but don't recall you mentioning an anger management problem on your part

it's normal for a child not to like seeing a parent or step parent get angry. why did it bother you so much when he told you that... even if it was "set up" by the mother

and why are you beating around the bush and not saying what the core issues exist between you two. you keep saying there are things you both don't like that aren't affairs but don't elaborate more than that

after reading your last post, i just get the feeling that we are getting a one-sided story

nug - I was going to reply and try and explain myself, but it's all really just excuses. I should just let it go and move on.

charlie - I don't know how much of an anger problem I have, but I have gotten angry and yelled at my wife and kids when there were much better responses available. I've viewed this as a side issue, and something that I have worked on. I don't get upset at my kids anymore, not like that, and my children know this. And this is the first time I've gotten upset in atleast 6 weeks. Honestly, I think my son said that more because he wanted to stay home and play video games then anything else. He certainly wasn't uncomfortable with me. But either way.

I didn't like the situation because it was cleary already a bad time, and this was something that we had already dealt with months before. I guess I felt as if my wife was feeling bad about things, and this was a form of tit for tat so that I would be as guilty as her. She also had plenty of oppurtunity to tell me ahead of time that my son wanted to talk to be about that, and didn't. I would have understood better. Now, we had talked it out and I can see that wasn't her intention, but she understands how I would have seen it that way.

As far as what I'm beating around the bush at, I just don't feel like it's something I should share. I understand that that's not exactly fair, and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it all. However, I've used this forum as venting just as much as getting advice.

If by one-sided, you mean that I'm not admitting my faults, I definitely have faults. I completely accept that I have done a ton of things wrong and have worked to improve them. My wife would tell you that she knows I'm not the same person. I don't mean to make it out that she's the bad guy, because for the most part, the bad guy is me.

I just struggle to go through this, watching a marriage go down when it doesn't need to. Reading what I've read here, it's clear that are marriage has a very good chance of making it if we both believe it can.

You are become wise to all this aren't you. LOL You hit it right on the head ...it's really all just excuses. It is easier to put the blame, pressure, responsibility or guilt on others then it is just to let it go, forgive and move on.

It is not so much how big of an issue you see it being as how big of an issue it really is to others. Look at it this way. Your wife does not understand how her actions has hurt you, right! You are the same way. You are not seeing how your actions have hurt her. To each of you, you think the other is making a bigger deal out of it, than what you each think it is. She thinks what she did was innocent and you think your anger is a side issue. When in fact what she did hurt you deeply and at the same time your anger has hurt he deeply. It's one of those see things from my shoes type situations.


You allowed it to affect you and get under your skin. You let it make you angry. Bad timing or not, you let it get the best of you. I know it is not easy. I struggle just as you do with it. It is easy for me to sit here and pick at it, because I have made the same mistakes. We have got to teach ourselves to be above the anger and not let the situation or what other do or say affect us. Brush it of and move forward in a calm collect manner. Not easy by any means, but practice makes perfect.

Ok, I have some questions regarding boundaries. One of the principles I've learned is that the spouse who wants to leave the marriage should leave the house. I didn't do this for a couple reasons. One, I thought the separation wouldn't be long. Two since I worked and she didn't, watching the kids would be an issue. And three, because she had always accussed me of using my salary against her, and making her feel like the house was mine and not ours.

I realize that was probably a mistake, but can you go back on that once you've already made the wrong choice? I feel like this would just anger her and look vindictive. She does leave when it's my time with the kids, and she knows that she has to essentially buy me out if she wants to keep the house. Not my rule, but just basic finance and credit.

The other is regarding telling the kids the truth. As far as I know, the kids have not been lied to. I do not go into detail with the kids, but when they asked why I have to leave, I just say that I do, and they understand that mommy and daddy aren't getting along. At first, they wanted to believe that grandma wasn't feeling well and I needed to take care of her, but I didn't let that lie go on. At some point, they need to know that I didn't want to go, but that this was their Mom's wishes. I don't want them to think I have no blame though. However, I think they understand that I still love their mother as I certainly don't hide my feelings in front of them, and they can tell who's trying and who isn't.

It does bug me when a child asks my wife if she likes daddy and she tells them very much so. I see that as somewhat of white lie. And then my other son was upset that my wife and I had argued the other day, and my wife had assured him that we had made up. Partially true as we came to an understanding and apologized and all that, but certainly weren't all better again.

I don't know I don't want to make things falsely easy (relatively speaking) for my wife, but I don't want to be vindictive either. As well, I don't want my kids to think that any of this is their fault.


edit: And other question. My wife had talked about how she felt she had low self-esteem because of our relationship, and wasn't happy with herself as well as me. And I have to admit that I've seen that turn around lately. She is a much stronger person then she used to be. More like the woman that I married.

Is this something I can compliment her on? I want to be honest about what I see, but at the same time, will it look like evidence that she's making the right decision to leave me? I really want her to see that she can be her best self and have me at the same time. That we can have it all, but I'm not sure how to approach that.

So I think this weekend was pretty good overall. Saturday was our anniversary. I started thinking of her as soon as I woke up, so I sent her a quick email just to say 'happy anniversary', atleast in terms of good thoughts about our past. I didn't feel satisfied after that, so I called her to say pretty much the same thing. Just happy anniversary and that's it. She seems ok with that, but uncomfortable.

She replied to my email saying that she was sorry if she sounded surprised, she just wasn't sure. I replied back 'not sure?', because I really didn't know what she was talking about. She then replied that she didn't know what to say or if we would say anything at all. I thought that was a little odd since I had told her before that I was going to write her a letter and gave it to her a couple days earlier. I just replied 'I understand'.

Then she called me a couple times asking if I was ok, and I was honest in saying no, I was sad, but thankful for our past. I could tell she was feeling rather guilty. After about the 4th time she called, she started getting upset, saying that I was trying to make her feel guilty with short responses and that I wasn't thinking about how all this was making her feel. I told her I did nothing like that and that I didn't know how to turn her short responses into long conversations. She basically tried to put all her bad feelings as my fault, but I wouldn't let her. I was glad that I kept my boundary.

The result was that ended up talking for an hour, one of the best talks we had. We shared a lot of our feelings for each other, mostly what we liked. It was really great. We were even talked a bit about what we liked about each other physically. It was great to be able to tell her things I felt without pushing her away, and to hear some compliments from her. The two things that I think were best about the conversation was that we seemed to get a new comfort level of honesty with each other, and that she said she believed that I loved her.

She was going out with friends from out of town (I did the same on Friday), so I went over the house to be with the kids that night. The honesty was continuing. She looked great and I told her so. I asked if the shirt was new, and she told me no, that she had worn it once when we were dating. She told me I had a picture of her in it, and luckily, I was able to remember the pic and describe it. I told her that I remember that she worn the necklace she had when were in Mexico..and she wore that bikini. She liked that and smiled. As she was leaving we hugged like normal, but her hand lingered on my side a bit, which I took to be a good sign and nothing at all at the same time.

When she came back on Sunday morning (she stayed at her mom's), things were good again, but she was tired as she didn't sleep well again. We had hugged twice, and her hand lingered again. Again, good, but not to be taken as meaning anything.

Today is her first day back with actual teaching (students arrive), so I called her last night to wish her well with that. Hopefully she'll call tonight but to let me know how it went. But if she doesn't I'll call her.

Overall, I really feel like this weekend removed alot of the unspoken things between us. She won't change her mind about divorce so easily, but we made progress in removing some of those reasons. It will still take more time, as I think she will need to really fall in love with me again, not just be at a point she's back in the black with her love bank.

I am worried a little bit that when that time comes, she won't want to work on the marriage so much, atleast not in reading books or counselling or so much. I know some things are going to come natural, and I can tell her what I need from her, but I'm not sure how willing she will be to try. But I get ahead of myself.

Why don't you ask her to tell you about how she feels now, because you've seen how much stronger she's been, and you like seeing her that way. Let her explain how she's feeling; not about the M, but about herself. That makes everyone feel good, to get to do that. Plus, you'll learn things about her you should probably know if you want to get back together.

Cat,

I actually did tell her that I could tell she was happier and stronger person lately, and that I was glad she was working again. She was really glad I said that because she was feeling those things, and liking herself more. I had to make sure that I didn't think it was because I wasn't around much though.

She told me that she could tell I was smiling more, and she was glad to see that. She told me that my smil was one of things she used to like the most about me. I made sure she knew it wasn't because she wasn't around much.

I ask her some questions, but you're right that I could probably ask more 'feeling' questions. I mostly ask what she's been up to, how's her back doing, how's she been sleeping, etc.

dkd what is that latest with your sit? Any new developments?

Not much really. School has started for her and from my eldest, and both are loving it. I talked with her Monday and it was good. Talked with her last night and things were still going well.

I feel confused about this, but one thing she told me last night was that everyone was so happy...my heart just sank when I heard that. Not at all that I don't want them to be happy, but it made me feel like I was kicked to the curb, that things were great without me and I wasn't needed or wanted. If she had said but I miss you or the kids miss you, I wouldn't have felt bad.

I opted to try and communicate how I felt without blaming or judging by just telling her that I really really missed her. She didn't return the favor, but she said 'Really?' in an appreciative tone, acknowledging the statement. And I appreciated that.

The thing about this whole exchange is, I have often felt bad when she has said she is so excited about something. Even if it was a vacation we were going on, I'd feel bad...like I wasn't important. Again, it's not that I don't want her to be happy, but why can't it be about me? I guess I'm learning that affirmation is definitely an EN for me. Deep down, I know she cares, I just need to hear it.

Anyway, the other part of the conversation was about how she was having trouble filling out all the documents she had to fill out about our finances, for the divorce. I took care of all that, and she didn't know what to do about it. I told her I'd let her see the forms I filled out, and we joked that she she was copying my homework. So after talking to her, I emailed the form, but felt like an idiot. Why am I helping her divorce me.

She sent an email thanking me for sending it and joked about copying homework again, and I responded by telling her that I felt like an idiot, but if we thought of it more as sharing information and being honest with each other, I feel much better about it. Maybe it will come off as being difficult, but I really felt like I needed to be honest and repair that boundary, so to speak.

So in summary, I can't tell if we were in the same place we were this weekend. I hope so, but maybe she's just feeling more comfortable without me and I'm just a fool.

I think her happiness has everything to do with her going back to school and nothing to do with you being booted to the side (as you put it). I know that is how you feel. But, I do not see that that is the case. I think that she is happy, because school is a much needed out for her right now. It is something that allows her to forget out the issues going on between you and her. Not that it is an escape, but it allows her to focus on something else for a bit. You know that hole "get a life" thing we have read about. Her starting school makes her feel like she is getting a life in a way. So it is not about getting away from you, but doing something she wants to do, that is what is making her happy. Of course the same goes for the kids. There comes a lot of excitement with going back to school. Be happy for them and with them, not down on yourself or searching for the negative.

For now instead of telling her how you miss her try to tell her how proud you are of her for starting school and how great she is doing with the kids. Instead of tell her about you, talk to her about her. I promise you that will go MUCH MUCH further for you in the long wrong. She know you feel bad and left out. I promise you she knows that. But, does she know that your are proud of her and admire her strengths.

I understand your feeling of "Why is it not about me." comment. I suffer from the same symptom. Affirmation is a huge EN for me. May even be my #1. Just last night my wife was telling me about a area at work were she fells she lacks knowledge. I told her she should look into the Community College to see if the have a course in that area. She said that would be smart, but they probably did not have a class for it and if they did it would be in the day time and she could not go because of work. She has wanted to go back to College ever since our S was born 6 years ago. She may have been right and I could have just let it go, but I got excited at the thought of her being able to do something that she has wanted to do for so long. So, I got online to research it for her. I did all the leg work and got her all the needed info. I even found her enrolled a class in the evening that she will start next week. All evening she was so excited. She keep talking about it and looking at the info that I had found. I was excited for her, but I could not get out of my mind the thought of "Hey I did all the leg work. I got you enrolled. The only reason it is happening is because I did it. Where is my appreciation? Where is my acknowledgment?" I let it get to me. She left without giving me any type of thank you. I know better then to let it get to me, but like you affirmation for things that I do are important to me. I have talked to her about this before, several times in fact, but she still does not make me feel like the things I do are appreciated. I have read that to love unconditionally we should not expect (no expectations) anything in return when we do something for the ones we love. Tough rule for me to follow.

Yeah, I don't know why you are doing paperwork to help her file for the divorce either. I am guessing for the same reason I did and that is because you are a kind heart'd guy and want to help her however you can. Even if it hurts you on the end. That is how I am.

That all makes sense, and I was happy for them. I know that it was about school and not about me. It wasn't about me. And I didn't want to rain on her parade and I don't feel like I did. I actually thought that I said in a way that was a compliment, that she was somebody worth missing. And I know that I should say nothing, and I will work on saying nothing. But I can't say nothing forever. I understand that not everything is about me, but I want to feel...like what Jerry McGuire said. That sure it was great, but it wasn't quite good enough because I couldn't share it with you. Maybe that's just a movie...unrealistic.


I've told I'm proud of her several times. I told her that I can see that she's a better, happier person, more herself, and working again was the best thing for her.


Yep that's exactly it. And I often think about unconditional love too. However, we aren't suppossed to deplete ourselves, are we? We deserved to be loved too? Honestly, I do love her unconditionally, as far as feelings and in my head. But as far as doing things go, I cannot give forever and get nothing in return. I will deplete myself and fall back into better habits.

I know this is a special situation where we need to ignore LBs, ignore that ENs aren't meet, and push through that. But eventually, we need to get to a point where it's not just giver and taker, but mutual effort to not LB and meet ENs.

Lord, I need more patience and faith. And if I get some more I'll try and share it with you nug.


Well, I wasn't actually filling out the form for her, just letting her see my forms. And the way I figured, her lawyer were going to request the info anyway, so I'm just making life easier for everyone...except me of course.

She was upset with me yesterday because I said that I was an idiot for helping her divorce me. I called her an elaborated on that, and that yes it was just sharing info and it was much easier for me to get the information then it was for her. She said that she was probably just cranky and jumping to conclusions. eh.

She seems to be happy with me today. Go figure.

I totally understand what you are saying about trying to meet their needs, while we put ours on the back burner. It does ware on us. It is not easy to give and give and feel like we are getting nothing in return. I have to keep telling myself that she does not feel thew same for me as I feel for her and she is not in a giving position right now. But, I like you can only give for so long without some reciprocating acts of giving. I hope and pray that she will start reciprocating before I grow to impatient and tired of my needs not being met and move on. Sadly I am slowing heading that direction. I even wrote her an email this week about this exact same topic that we are talking about.

I keep trying to tell myself that I have nothing but time on my side, and that's true for the most part. I never have to give up, so there is no rush.

One thing my wife told me a week or so ago was that the first thing she noticed about me was my smile. It got me thinking that I probably wasn't all that fun to be around as I was so focused on us. So I tried to let things go a bit and just enjoy the time I got to spend with her and my kids. I ignored that signs that say she's moving on and started appreciated the signs that she still cares. And there really is alot of it, not so much in the ENs that I need, but in what comes naturally to her. I looked back at alot of old emails and realized that she always took my feelings into account. And that was so nice, so sweet.

But anyway, we and the kids went out to dinner on Sunday and had a great time. We talked a lot overall and had no issues. Maybe we're just friends for her, maybe there's a little more for her, but I imagine she's not evaluating it at all and just going with it. That's cool. Nothing but time.

Ok, not a whole lot to update. Had dinner with the wife and kids again this Sunday, and it was ok. I've been feeling kind of blah lately, and I think my depression is creeping back a bit. But I'm glad I can recognize it now and have a good idea of how to react to it.

I may be the only person in Houston who wants hurricane Ike to hit us. It's my weekend with the kids coming up, and I know that my wife will want to stay with us if the storm hits hard.

But I did have some news that hit me kind of hard today. My W just sent me an email saying that a friend offered to let her and the kids come down to Mexico with their family over thanksgiving. That kinda floored me. Not only would I want to go with them, but I will miss them over the holiday, and it's the one year anniverary of my Dad's passing. But I didn't say all that when she asked me if I thought it would be a problem. I told her it sounded like fun, and the only real concern was if there was some legal reason with the divorice for her not to go.

Haven't been here in a while, thought I'd give an update, for whatever it's worth. Alot of details have changed. First, my wife's honeymoon about starting work again has pretty much passed. She also went and got a 2nd job, that she can do from home at night. She has had some stressful times but has generally stayed positive.

I moved into an apartment about a week ago, and that has started to change my attitude a bit. I am starting to realize that I had changed myself a lot to accomodate my wife, and the idea of being my old self is somewhat encouraging. I also felt like I didn't want to go out of my way to help my wife any more. Essentially, I didn't want to feel like a tool anymore. If I was going to take the kids shopping for something, I didn't want to put them to bed and wait 2 hours for her to come back to the house. That's not about child support, that's baby sitting.

I told her that I was expecting to get any pictures from her anymore, since she was months behind on pics she promised me (that really made her mad). Today may have been the worst. Our eldest, who isn't mine by birth, woke up with a brusied hand this morning. So she calls me to see if I can take off work to go have it x-rayed. I normally would, since getting a substitute teacher is so difficult, but this time I didn't. She was taken a back by that, but didn't complain much since I wasn't vindictive about it.

I really have lost almost all my nerve to fit for her. She has come to realize a lot of the mistakes that she made, but really refuses to consider that fixing these problems could result in a happy marriage (along with fixing my stuff of course). I don't want to feel like a tool anymore, and I really want to just start over, preferable with her, but I'll be ok with out her. I can't make her want to change some things, and I can't go on with the way things were or the way they are now.

So anyway, I guess I'm more numb then any thing else. I don't want to fight right now. Maybe I'll find the strength to fight again one day, but not today. Right now, I just want to be whole again so I can be a good father and a loveable person again.

Well, since I've been hanging back around a bit more, thought I should probably give an update. Really, pretty much right where we were at the last update. I didn't really realize it, but things were getting better between us between October and Christmas. Unfortunately 3 big things popped up in January that has put up huge walls between us.

I can't say I've been trying, I've mostly just been trying to react honestly to how I feel. I don't have much desire to try and stop the divorce or win her back, I just want to be the person I love again. I want to be somebody I can respect regardless of what anyone else thinks.

I still find my wife attractive and fun to be around most of the time. She's a good mother and a good person. And honestly, if she wanted to try and work things out again, I would do that. But there are a few things that I would need from her that weren't there before, the same way she would need changes from me. Mostly, I'd want to know that she's not going to give up on us again...atleast not the way this happened.

I don't know exactly what's going to happen, but I'm ok with that. I'd love for us to be able to work things out, and I haven't given hope on that. But if she started seeing someone else, it would hurt, but I'd be ok with that. Even then, I'm not sure I would give up hope, but I want to live it one day at a time right now, work on myself, and enjoy life for what it is.

Ok, so the relationship with my STBXW has been civil to friendly for the past few weeks. However, I am starting to feel a little taken for granted and am not comfortable with our level of communication. I know that I have a tendency to be manipulative so I don't know what to do.

The past month I've done quite a bit for STBXW, things I didn't have to do, but she couldn't get done herself. She's been verbally appreciative. I have been (atleast I think I've been) pretty good about it, not made her feel guilty about it or hold it over her head. I'd do these things whether she appreciated it or not.

However, I'm starting to feel like the verbal appreciation is just verbal, which somewhat hurts. I know that part of it is that I just don't have things that she can do for me in return, or atleast things she's comfortable with. So it's not exactly fair. As well, I know that I do want her affection and such but that's not something she want to give, because it's either uncomfortable or possibly misleading.

I don't know what to do about this. Part of me says that I shouldn't give what she isn't able to give back in return, but I know that that often puts my kids in the middle and goes against the type of person I think I want to be. But I also know that I'm not strong enough to just put my needs aside either.

On a slightly different issue, my STBXW has gotten very busy. Since we have 3 kids, I'm active in their lives, and we have divorce issues to communicate, we have alot of need to talk. I'd prefer to talk on the phone or in person to deal with these things, and she wants to just email and text. I hate this. Mostly because it seems like it takes forever to get something decided and questions answered. For example, I've asked 2 times over the past week whether she had signed up our daughter for dance classes, and I still have no answer. This morning, I asked if I should pick up the kids from home or from the daycare and the response I got was that she thought the kids would have fun tonight. I asked again and she answered. I haven't responded back yet, and I imagine she'll ask me what's wrong if I don't.

I need to talk with her about things like taxes and getting the kids started up in church again, but I don't want to mess with it. I am tempted to just take the kids to church without talking to her about it first.

A part of me says that instead of trying to communicate so much, I should just make decisions and move on. I can stop by the house before I try the daycare to pickup the kids. I can do what I think is best for the kids without involving her. After all, she wants the divorce, and getting a sense of independence could be good for me. And maybe I'm hanging on to her to much and I won't stop missing her until I let her go.

dkd - I was in much the same boat as you. Though instead of moving out of the house on my own, I told her I was staying until the courts told me I had to go. This prompted her to move out and find her own place. When she decided to buy a townhouse (we're in Houston too) instead of rent, I really knew it was over. That convinced me, more than anything else, that there was no future for us.

And once she was gone, I went fairly dark. No official Plan B. No letter, and no intermediary. But I did insist on keeping 95% of our communication through email. I was also completely walled up to her in person and on the phone. Sometimes I let a hostile tone creep into my voice. Not threatening, but unpleasant. I wouldn't even tell her "good bye" when we spoke. I'd just hang up once whatever we needed to talk about was finished.

She actually responded oddly I thought. For all of her desire to push me away, she still seemed to try to keep me within some kind of reach. She'd do things like update my personal information for me at our kids' schools. Or try and share anecdotal information and stories about her family. I let her know if no uncertain terms that I didn't want her engaging me personally at any level. I needed as much separation from her as possible.

I think breaking away as much as I could while maintaining communication about the kids only ("Just the facts ma'am.") helped me to recover quicker than I otherwise might have. It gave me some perspective on our M and on our relationship in general. It also helped me to view her in a different light. Not seeing her face, or hearing her voice was what I needed.

She became very hostile to this. You could even say she stepped out of Withdrawal and back into Conflict, though not enough to get back to Intimacy. She implied that I was being a bad father for not being "friendly" with her.

I don't advise this as a way to get her back. I advise it as a way to get past the D and move on with your life when you're ready. And by "ready", I mean when you actively decide that you wouldn't want her back, even if she begged you.

Thanks Seabird. I really appreciate this.

I've made attempts going dark, which result in her temporarily warming up to me (like yours did), but then getting hostile (like yours did). And you're right that hearing her voice and seeing her face is a big part of what keeps me still hoping for the possiblity. I feel like I need to break away if only to build up my own confidence and feel whole again. I wish i had the option of disappearing for awhile, only to reappear and start over.

In regards to the "bad father" thing. I expect to hear that because I am not going to my oldest sons baseball practices. I asked her if she needed help to take him or watch the little ones, and she said I should come to practice if I wanted to. So I'm not going, because I don't think he needs me there and because I don't know that being there is good for anybody, and because I want to hear that she needs the help rather then she was being understanding by not asking me to stay away. However, I spent some one-on-one time with him practicing this weekend and will make as many games I can. Which is a ton more then what his biological father is going to do.

What big issue we would have to get over is that she has very deep rooted emotion walls, which makes her very defensive at times. It's often hard to get her to see that I'm not attacking her. I, on the other had have spent too much time in both the catholic church and baptist church (2nd Baptist) and therefore have tendencies towards both guilt and self-rightousness. :RollieEyes:

I don't know how long it's going to be till I don't want her back anymore, although I think that may be when she starts dating other guys, or I somehow start seeing someone else.

dkd - There's some things in your last post that I want to address. I don't know why you aren't getting a lot of responses to your thread here. You might ask the mods to move this over to EN where there's more traffic.

First off, you said this:

I'm sure you've been here long enough to know (and maybe even been told by others), that you're not going to "get her" to do or see anything. If she feels like she's being attacked, then that's on her. Stop living in her head, and stop trying to navigate around her misperceptions. Speak from the truth - your truth. You can talk about how you feel and where you're coming from. Beware the old trap of, "You make me feel like....", or "I feel like you...".

I've been to both 1st and 2nd Baptist churches. I'm not a fan of either. Megachurches with bowling alleys and restaurants don't speak to me I guess. But I was raise a Presby where we're taught that it's a sin to smile or hug your mother.

That was a joke btw. I learned that another name for us is the "Frozen Chosen".

Another thing to address is when you feel like you've reached your end. Your give up or give in point. You mentioned it might happen when you start seeing someone new. Don't let that be it. A rebound relationship shouldn't be the bookend to the M. If you want to have one, then fine. Contrary to what some people here might say, I see some benefit to them, as long as you see it for what it is, and you're honest with the rebound partner. But please don't decide you're done with the STBXW just because you've fallen into the arms of another woman.

I totally hear you on the baseball practices. I wanted to do more with my kids during my separation (my DD had just started public school), but the XW also found that throwing herself into parenthood would be therapeutic. The couple of open house nights I went to and she was there was just really, really awkward. I couldn't stand being near her. It was almost suffocating for me.

So I told her that while I'd like to be more involved in those events, I'd choose to remain away while she was there. If she thought it was really that important to our kids for me come to some of that stuff, I proposed a 50/50 split. Her response, "You can't tell me when I can come and when I can't. If you can't be there for our children just because of me, that's your problem."

And she was right. It was my problem. So I did other things. I realized that being a good father wasn't just about me being there when she said I should be there. I began to plan my own activities and events with the kids. We did things on our own. And you know what? My kids are growing with memories of events that are exclusive to me. I like that.

You have options dkd. Be creative.

Now, I will say that it's been 2 years since the separation began, and a year since the D was final. We're -finally- getting past the acrimony and hostility. We're becoming cooperative enough to work with each other outside of the framework of the decree. We backslide from time to time, and then we have to withdraw to the safety of the decree.

I got the crap hammered out of me here recently for holding her feet to the fire on some scheduling issues. I finally had to have the thread locked and I'm sure that I made a few enemies. I got a lot of good support for my choices too. Just goes to show that there are a lot of different interpretations on how things should be done.

I don't have time to address all of this since, but I wanted to start.

I do know what you mean about getting her to do something. I guess I'm still not in the grove of avoiding DJs and just saying how I feel. I try, but often fail. Although recently, I was able to get something out successfully, but I had to pause and think about it for around 10 seconds before I got it out. I thought that was going to be bad, but I think the long pause emphesized that I was really trying to get it right.

I don't think I'd ever go full Catholic or Baptist again. Too many things I didn't really like about myself when I was there.

As far as rebound relationships, I've done that enough pre-marriage to know it's to be avoided. I didn't say this clearly, but I feel like there's going to be a stage where I'm content to just be by myself, and haven't started anything new. Even though I'm not persuing a relationship with the X, I feel like I would still be open to try if felt she was genuine. If I was already dating someone else, i think the door would be closed. but I'm projecting too far out, no need to think about that now.

I have been working on doing things with my kids. We've been to the zoo so many times that I'm on a first name basis with the monkeys. I'll be coaching my other son's soccer team, and had a 'date' with my daughter around valentine's day. What burns me quite often is that when I'm at the zoo or whatever with the kids, I'm missing my wife because it would be that much more fun with her there too.

One thing I've learned though is that if I'm not healthy, not taking care of myself, I can't be a good father. And if I'm feeling like I can't be healthy being around STBXW, then it's a catch-22 at events where both parents are there. For the most part it's not a problem, but it has been before and it will be again.


I know which thread you're talking about and completely know where you're coming from.

I had a somewhat interesting weekend, I think. I spoke about this in my Church thread, but I decide to take the kids to church this weekend, and as recommended, I didn't ask the W, I just let her know and did it. It went just fine, and proof that I overthink things too much.

So fast forward to yesterday afternoon and I decided out of the blue that I wanted to call her up and see if she was interested in having a family dinner on Sunday. I didn't think about it much, but she didn't respond the way I would expect. I figured I'd get a reluctant yes or distinctive no. Instead, she asked me why, and replied 'for fun'. She then said she wanted to think about it. Ok. She calls back a couple hours later and says no. She also wanted to make sure that I wasn't hurt by her answer, but maybe some other time. I wasn't hurt, but was a little confused by how she responded.

I feel pretty good about asking. I'm not really sure why, but glad I did. I really wasn't even that bothered by the outcome, although I would have liked to have dinner of course. I feel like I could ask again and not fear her answer.

Hi dkd, I am sorry that I never fell into your thread, but I would like to get an update before I post anything. What's up?

lol catperson, you were actually one of the first people in my thread. I haven't forgotten that.

As far as an update goes, it's hard to say. I think I know where I stand, but so much is locked away in her head that I really don't know where 'we' are at. I assume the worst just to be on the safe side.

Basically, I keep trying to work on me. When it comes to her, I am trying to cut out LBs (mostly DJs) and still maintain some boundaries. It seems to be hard for me to find the middle ground. For the most part, I do ok, but as expected, when slip up puts me back to square one. Right now, I have a few weeks of doing it right, so we are on good speaking terms. She trusts me enough to tell me how she feels about some things, and appreciates my responses.

On the other side, I am trying to improve myself, by basically trying to be the person I want to be. More confident, more social, in better shape, and more in control of me, without trying to control and judge others. I think I've made some progress, but not where I want to be yet.

Overall though, I don't know that any of this will make a difference in my relationship with my wife. Sure, she will think better of me, but it is entirely possible that there is nothing I can do to bring us back together as a couple.

Fixing my own alone stuff won't be enough, as I need things to change from her side as well. Even though she is not interested in me right now, I am tempted to let her know what those are just for the sake of establishing a better boundary. I don't think she consciously thinks I'll be here no matter what, but perhaps on a subconsciously level, she has no motivation for change. I have set boundaries on a few things, and it seems like she responds to it in a way that makes our relationship better, if for friends only.

Hi dkd. I just read through most of your thread and wanted to respond. Though I am not comparing you to my husband, I think I might have a bit in common with your wife so I thought I'd post my $.02 for what that's worth.

I have to be honest. I have held on in this marriage way beyond the point of what I think is healthy--for me. I held on because I am loyal. I did not want to let him down in his hours of darkest need. I held on because of the kids. I thought that a two parent household, no matter how miserable, was better than being children of divorce. I held on because I was afraid of what was on the other side--being a single mother and a divorce woman. And I held on because I still loved him.

But I'm not sure that just loving him is enough to keep me holding on anymore. I'm tired, beaten down, beaten up (not literally), guilt-ridden, angry, resentful, sad, hopeless, depressed and so on. This is NOT good for me. I can't solve his problems for him and I see little attempt from his side to solve his own problems. I see him taking more and more of his anger and frustration with life out on me and the kids--particularly my daughter. I think that's what's really motivating me to do something; I shudder to think about the problems she might have with men someday after growing up like this.

I am tired of being his whipping post. He has some of those same attitudes that filtered through in your sentence where you said you can't "make your wife see...". Like I said, I'm not comparing you to my husband. But if your wife does feel any of the same feelings I am, it's possible she just got to this point.

I'm sorry if it feels I spoke out of turn. I just felt something for your wife's desire to move on and try things on her own.

Thanks for this. Every chance to understand my W is a plus.


As far as similiarities go, I can't really speak to most of this with full certainty, accept for the last 2 points. My W has clearly stated that she does not think a marriage where the parents don't get a long is better then being a child of divorce. That has been clearly discussed between us. As for being afraid of the other side, I don't think she has nearly as much fear of that. She had been a single mothe before, knows that her parents will always be close by to support her, and knows that I'll be around too. It doesn't mean she completely unafraid, but she has alot of reasons to be confident.


I have no doubt that I said that, or that I said it the wrong way, but I can't find and don't recall the context. I know I have made many many mistakes, and understand that she felt and still feels all those things. I understand how a lot of it feels as I've been there myself. I don't think I understand how it feels to reach the end and fall out of love though. I struggle with understanding that a lot.


Not at all. It's good for me to hear this, and surely good for you to say it. I'm sure if your saying that I should give up on her though, that since she's reached that point, I should just completely let her go.

No, I am not suggesting that you do that. I really am in no position to give you any advice on what to do, except that I think you should do whatever you feel is the right thing. And it sounds as though at this point, that is that you keep fighting for your marriage. So in that case, I'd advise you to stock your arsenal with every tool available from this site, the members here, other books, seminars, etc.

I was just offering you my perspective as a wife near the end of her rope. Our feelings of despair and hopelessness seem simlar to me. But the reasons I am at the end are obviously not the same as the reasons your wife states.

My H has not indicated any interest in Marriage Builders so that alone makes him much different than you.

Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. I don't know if it's accurate to say I'm fighting for my marriage. I don't want a divorce either, but like you said, I'm just trying to do what seems right. At this point I'm more concerned about fixing myself and being O&H about who I am and how I feel. Maybe that's all the same thing, don't know.

Ok, so here's an update. Things are actually going pretty well. My W and I communicate almost daily, mostly about parenting or financial issues, but occasionally beyond that. I feel is as if the Love Bank is starting to approach 'the black' on both of our accounts. She seems to be trusting and opening up a little more, and for the first time in a long she expressed that she cared without any obligation or reason to be polite. That felt great.

That being said, it feels like there is a ceiling on far this can all go. I don't believe she is anywhere near considering working on our relationship again. I'm sure she still has deep wounds, and does not want to go through 'all that' again. She is typically a very stubborn person who doesn't like to change her mind. As well, she has a very good safety net. Her parents are close by to help her out financially or otherwise, and she knows I'd be there for her as well.

On my side, I know that there is a lot more to be worked on then just cleaning up my account with her. Getting a point where we like each other again does not mean that issues are resolved. There are several things that I would need to change that I don't have control over. I wouldn't say that it's all her LBs or not meeting ENs, though that is a huge portion of it.

I feel like I need to go through the LB and EN questionaire's again, as I'm sure they've changed since I did them last. I don't know if I should make an attempt to communicate those to her. I really feel like I should communicate that there are issues beyond my control without being specific, just to be honest about where I stand. I also want to explain to her what I mean when I say she's beautiful (she doubts my sincerity a bit), so I think it could be good to communicate both at the same time.

Just to give an idea of thhe issues, here's a relatively minor example. The house is rarely ever clean, and even it is, it is surface only. Things are very disorganized unless I take the time to organize them, but I can only do that so much. I see this as an AH, that could easily be a DJ, and thus it just wasn't talked about much. I understand that things can't be perfect all the time, and that you can only do so much, but to be honest, a cluttered world makes me feel cluttered overall. And I hate the idea of spending money to get nice things only to see them not taken care of. I know she doesn't like it as well, and understands that I don't like it to a point, but I don't think she understands that it's not about judging her, it's about what it does to me personally to live in a cluttered home.

But am I being unreasonable? Should I learn to adjust? I can to an extent, but that is more like pretending the AH isn't there then actual adjusting. Perhaps I just don't know how to adjust properly. Maybe I need to learn to uncluttered my world and ignore the rest (like her side of the closet) Or maybe that's just a true incompatability that can't be resolved.

Clutter is my number one LB and EN (lack of). I think of it every single day. It's complicated. Anyway, I have done two things about it. I finally (after 30 years!) told my H how much the lack of attention to clutter is killing my love for him, as he is responsible for 90% of it and he makes no attempt to address it. We can go 5 years without him touching a single thing in the house or garage to address it. This weekend, after my telling him last weekend, he hung up 5 shelves for me! He even fixed my record player, which hasn't worked in 15 years! These are things I've asked for, many times, and he simply didn't hear it. But to hear me tell him it's so disrupting that I'd consider leaving him over it...well, he's getting things done (at least for now).

The other thing I have started doing is purging my house. Face it, how many magazines do we really need? How many extra pillows? Old blankets? Childhood games? Stuffed animals?

Look around at your house. Imagine a wildfire approaching. What things would you absolutely have to save? Then consider what you can get rid of that wasn't included in that list. You'll be glad you did.

Ok, one more thing. Storage. I've been buying those Cubicle things at Target one at a time, and adding to my storage space so I can find everything I need, I can see everything easily, and it gives a sense of order I imagine you are sorely lacking.

DKD, clutter's a big trigger for my H, too. He'll say, I'm emptying this room tomorrow, so whatever you want to keep, put it away before then. There may be 5 things in the whole room that I want, and I know where they are, so I get them and put them away. Worked great for us. He can pile in the car and deliver to Goodwill with 30 minutes of effort what would have taken me a day or more to sort through.

Once it's clear, it only takes me at most 15 minutes to keep it that way.

Then when I see the same things in the store again, I wait to buy them until I figure out where they would go. A lot of things I don't where they would go in my house, and that's cool with me. Like a polaroid camera. It sounds like fun, and if it was something I really wanted, I'd find a place for it, but I don't want it that badly, so the place for it to stay is at the store. If I ever need it, I know where it is

I should add, dkd, that the only room that gets cluttered anymore is the kids' toy room. And if that became an issue, they wouldn't need a toy room. As is, my H clears it out almost bare before birthdays and holidays. The kids had already put away what they wanted to keep. The rest of the whole house has stayed clean and uncluttered.

Since I have moved out, I have realized just how much peace of mind organization gave me, and stick with it pretty well. When we were still living together, it was well know that I loved getting new bins so I could organize and store things. She appreciated the organization, but did not make a big effort on her part and resented it when it became a project for me, away from the family.

Is it fair to ask your spouse to clean up their side of the closet? It seems reasonable to expect the common areas to be relatively clean, but personal spaces as well? Also, how do you do this without it turning into a DJ?

I don't know that I could just clean out a room like you guys are talking about.


...and I think I'm going to do those questionaires and let you guys know about the ones that seem the most controversal. The validation helps.

I can handle toys in the toy room to an extent, however, it drives me nuts to see DVDs and video game discs on the floor, or just not put back in the case. Tells me they don't appreciate what they have.

I'm the neat one in my house. I don't expect everyone to have the same standards as mine. In fact, I've learned to relax a LOT since I married H (a whole lot messier than me!). And he's a pack rat too, while I'm a purger.

But his refusal to even put much effort into meeting me 1/4 of the way when he knows how important it is to me is something I take as personal rejection.

It also tells you, dkd, that they may not need or even want them. I read about this also in Pam and Peggy's Slob Sister books. You can take the stuff, and hold it for a week, or let them pay to get it back. Or not. They made a fun game of it, and have a lot of other fun clutter solutions in there. For us, though, we didn't think our kids wanted that much stuff, and they agreed, so we got rid of it for good.

Another thing I do, which goes along with the DVDs on the floor, is every 6 months, my D18 and I go through her room and divide and conquer. If she has 20 or 25 stuffed animals, I'll tell her she can keep 12; she gets to pick out the 12 she wants most to keep; the rest are given away. Same with books, movies, CDs, etc. Pick a number less than what you have and give that person the option to choose what gets kept; teaches charity.

I think the closet issue needs to be discussed honestly. That it's a psychological drag on your conscience to see the disorder every morning, and you'd like to know whether she'd be willing to address it.

In the past we have done a modified version of removing un-needed toys. Basically toss it out when they aren't looking. However, I don't want to throw away DVDs, I just want them taken care. For awhile, I went with grounding him from playing video games if my son (8 year old) doesn't put the discs away properly. But it felt like it was just me...I didn't feel like W was with me on that. And since DS is not mine by birth, I often feel like I have limited parenting authority. The plan lasted about 2 weeks.

Add to that that DS8 has 3 sets of grandparents and 2 dads, he often can get what he wants with little effort and honestly doesn't know the value of it. I really dislike that I have so little control over things in that regard.

That really ties into another issue I have...the role of her parents in our relationship. Her parents are well off, and will help out wherever they can. It's difficult knowing that while on vacation, her parents can and would show her a better time then I can afford to...and she has been unsatisfied with what I can provide in the past. I don't want to compete with her parents in that regard. It would be one thing if I couldn't provide a decent vacation, but I do pretty well. Even now, the home is filled with furniture and things that her parents have gotten for her since the separation...and I dread, if I ever move back, having to ask for these things to be removed.

One example was the kitchen table. When it came time to get a bigger table years ago, her parents were going to give us thier old one. She wanted it, but I was hesitant because I'm not fond of glass tables, it wasn't in great condition, and I wanted our own table. It was my fault that I was being picky...it was generous of her parents, and other husbands wouldn't care. Am I not suppossed to have a opinion about the home I live in?

She is aware of all this, and doesn't want to be dependent on her parents. However, she will pick her battles and totally cave in on other areas. She will hold her ground on the things that are needed, but will accept anything she can justify as a gift.

I like her parents. They are fun people. It's not personal, I just want to be our own family.

I have often felt like it's her established life and it's been my job to fit into it.

and I think it's getting buried, so I'll ask again. In a situation where you are separated and the spouse is sold on divorce, is it appropriate to let them know that you have unmet ENs and met LBs without being specific. I don't expect W to work on anything since she has expressed that she won't, but to also understand that they are there. In a way, I want to set a boundary. If she ever wanted to get back, I wouldn't just accept her back without questions, I would need to know that certain issues (my own and others) would be addressed.

Dkd, how would you feel aout saying "No thanks, we're planning to find a table that we both like." Or, "Thanks for the table, but we're redecorating, want first dibs before we put it on craigslist?"

Dkd, in general, the same way you give others here good advice about respecting that their spouses are rational people capable of working through issues together, how about "acting as if" your W is a rational person and you two can find solutions you both like?

You are absolutely right. This is an example from years ago, and although I knew this then, I probably made two mistakes. I'm sure I DJ'd, and I caved in. And I probably wasn't honest about how I felt either. Guess that's 3.

It's not so much that I don't think she's rational, it's that I am afraid that I'm not rational, or that she wouldn't care anyway. That's why I need validation that clutter is an actual AH, and not just my problem. My confidence is not what it needs to be.

Honesty is always the best answer, IMO. If you're married, you're supposed to be best friends. If you're not best friends, you shouldn't be married.

Clutter is a very real need. Any you feel is worth feeling. Unless you're being vindictive, of course. Jayne can tell you more about it.

hmmmm, I definitely see your point and it makes think I need to reread Boundaries. As I think about, I understand that a boundary is in the general vicinity, but I haven't clearly marked it or enforced. As you stated, done anything about it. I also have opted to redraw a boundary further in, in hopes that that new line won't be crossed. I convince myself that the boundary wasn't in the right place to begin with.

For example, when it comes to clutter, I convince myself that it's not a problem, only perception of it is, or that I just shouldn't care. So the next time the border is crossed, I say that I'm doing the right thing and giving my wife some freedom, when I'm really allowing her to LB me with an AH and not giving her a chance to even address it. It's not good for either of us.

I guess that's what I mean when I say that avoiding a boundary prevents a DJ. If I redraw my boundary, then no judgment needs to be made at all. A cope out for sure.

As for having DJ thoughts, I absolutely do. Not as much as I used to as I am practicing anti-DJ in my head. But in many cases, I'm not thinking "She's so lazy for not cleaning up the house". I'm also not thinking that "A clean uncluttered house really gives me peace of mind, and I really need that". What I'm thinking is "What's wrong with me? Why do I care? If I say anything, she'll just be mad at me. Why can't I just change."

Both the first and last options get me in trouble...

And both of which are disrespectful and harmful to BOTH of you. Not a marriage. Neither of you should be living in an environment in which you feel unheard, disrespected, or unwanted.

Honest conversation about your feelings is paramount. Even something you are afraid she will take wrong. It is YOUR feeling; therefore it is a VALID feeling. Not wrong, not right, just yours. Just as she has her own.

LA said it best when she told me that NOT telling my H how I feel about something is me disrespecting him, by not letting him know how I feel and giving him the opportunity to please me if he wishes.

Hi dkd,

Found you again. Thanks for moving the discussion. I don't have a thread to call home, so it's nice to meet at yours.

The longer I've been thinking and learning about DJs, the more I come to the conclusion that it's not simply the DISRESPECTFUL judgements that cause distance and stress, but also the OVER-respectful ones. That, to me, is the continuum, which seems quite independent of boundary enforcement: if you're hot then you tell yourself you're better than the other, if you're cold you tell yourself the other is better than you.

If I feel better than you, I'll see me as important and virtuous, you as irrelevant, weak or wrong, and feel impatient when you tell me your needs and disdainful when you try to meet mine.

If I feel worse than you, I'll see me as broken, useless and probably destined for misery, you as advantaged and privileged, and feel helpless and jealous and depressed because that means I think nobody would ever deign to meet my needs, nor can I really contribute to your happiness because what could a wretch like me probably give to you?

In both cases, I don't see you for what you are anymore. In that case, we can't really communicate, POJA, or meet the other's needs. Like your example, your wife is blissfully unaware that she's doing something that annoys the living daylights out of you, all because you think there's something wrong with you because you're bothered by clutter.

I agree with you, the anti-other-directed DJ-thoughts are easiest to implement. However, I think many people (I sure tend to) do what you're also doing - judging your OWN needs disrespectfully and drawing some overly respectful (and therefore not truly respectful at all) conclusions about what you think her needs are.

The only way out that I've managed to determine is to try and stop judging altogether (so don't tell yourself "I should not judge" because even that's a judgement!), which is crazy hard, and try to get the information I want right from the source.

Which requires some trust and fancy communication skills and openness to suspend any judgements. And compassion for your own needs, even if you're not quite clear what they are and even if you have a ham-fisted way of trying to get them met. And compassion for others' needs, even if they don't seem like something you'd ever need, and even if THEY have a ham-fisted way of trying to get them met.

I love the radicalness of the policy of Radical Honesty in this. To truly figure out what you need, and not simply projecting the feeling you have on others.

My favorite radical honesty tool is Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication. It's dead simple (and wickedly difficult), and has only 4 steps.
1: Observation - There's magazines on the couch and toys everywhere (just guessing - of course you'll have some things that bother you way more).
2: Feeling - (always some variation of happy/angry/sad/afraid) I feel anxious, restless and frustrated
3: Need - I need a peaceful environment
4: Request - Most effectively something like 'How'd you feel about setting aside more time for decluttering,' 'Would you please tell me what you think about what I'm saying,' 'What would make it possible for you to be happy about cleaning more?' - things that open communication and don't feel like demands.

Ideally, you could try to figure out HER observations, feelings and needs as well, but this kind of give-and-take usually descends into escalating requests in my house, so we tend to give each other 15 minutes (in which one listens to observations, feelings and needs of the other without asking for requests too quickly, so they'll feel properly listened to) and then switch.

Tends to work.

I think I'll still be learning to the day I die, though, but the improvements have been remarkable.

And the fun thing is: this works wonders to shore up your boundaries as well! The minute you're respectful of your own needs, you can say to others: "Look, this is what I need right now. I would like it if you would help me meet this need, but it's OK if you don't. However, I'm going to take some time to meet my own needs and I'll come back to listen to yours the moment I feel up to it."

(Or something marginally less cheesy, if you can think of it!)

WD, I thought I responded to this yesterday, but I guess I hadn't. What you said makes a ton of sense, and I'm realizing that I need to reevaluate a lot of things.

Cat, your comments as well. I haven't really thought about how disrespectful it was to someone else when you are not enforcing your own boundaries.

So I know I need to figure out where on stand on things, where my boundaries really are, but then I need to figure out how to apply them. I know that they should be reinforced going forward, but is it right to restate boundaries on past decisions, or on areas that no longer apply?

For example, I understand that I shouldn't have moved out of the house, but I did. I have promised not to push her out and I have no problem keeping that promise. But is it wise to explain to her that I feel that the decision was wrong and why? That would be honest, but her response would not be good, and probably go over easier at a different time. I don't want to lie if the issue comes up again, but I don't know that I should make it an issue.

Other areas are not so tough, like the clutter issue I mentioned earlier. Even though it does not apply right now since we are not living together, it seems appropriate to communicate that. I believe right now that she sees the issue as a judgemental thing and therefore it would probably be somewhat as a relief if she can see it as something else. She has said in the past that she doesn't think she could make me happy. I imagine that there may be enough of these types of smaller things that I can't just spill them all at once.

A part of me thinks that it's all immaterial since she has stated that she is not interested in marriage anymore. However, we will have a relationship of some sort going forward, and it seems like communicating boundaries seems like a good way to help reconciliation occur.

And somewhat unrelated, I sent her an email last night, covering 3 topics. One is that I wanted to thank her for being supportive of me coaching our 4 year old with soccer.

Two requires some background. After I dropped off our 4 year old from soccer practice last night, our 4 year old took it pretty hard. He is fine most of the time, but sometimes it hits him hard. So in the email I said that when that happens, I feel for him and for her. I said that I used to feel guilty and get angry, but I don't anymore. I just try and think of how I can make things better for them. In hindsight, I suspect she might think my reference to being angry means I was angry at her, which is not really accurate.

Third also requires some background. About a week ago I told her that I thought she looked good, and she responded that I always say that, implying that I said it when she wasn't trying to look her best and doubted my sincerity in a way. So in the email I stated that I say it when I think it, and when I think it's the right time. I don't always say it when I think it, and I sometimes say it when it's not the right time. My only goal in saying it is that she might feel good, and that I might feel good for being honest. I wanted to say that it was sincere, and I wasn't trying to butter her up or anything, but I figure that would only have the reverse effect.

She hasn't responded, which is fine. I'm annoyed with myself a bit for wanting a response.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to change your mind on boundaries that you've agreed to in the past but no longer work for you. Of course, you'll have to be prepared for a little resistance, especially if it's something the other person finds really great or convenient.

I'm not sure about the areas that no longer apply. If they will never apply again, I think it's useless to go to bat over it.

Of course, expressing regret or unmet needs in the past is something different, but only if things still bother you now. I find it often helps me when I talk myself through past situations like: "I made decision X back then because I was afraid and it met my need for security. However, now I see that although I was looking out for myself in a way, I didn't look for a solution that also met my need for variation. Right now, I feel kinda sad because I really need to be better at this and listen to myself." And if I say these things to people, they sometimes think it's weird but they haven't felt angry or afraid yet!

If you think the areas will apply again in the future, by all means it sounds like a good idea to be clear about what you want! You may want to wait with actually negotiating these things until they start applying again - like who does what chores if you move back in with your wife - but it's good to clarify your needs for when that happens.


I think that depends on what you need. Do you need understanding? Do you need to be honest with her, regardless of whether she'll understand or empathise? Do you need to feel at home somewhere, and you think your old house is the best place to do so? Do you need to be closer in proximity to the kids?

In some of these cases, I think you'd gain by explaining, in others, not so much.


Yeah, I think so too. It's just you and you just happen to have a strong need for peace. And when you talk about it in a need-focused way, you may even find out that there would be other ways to get your peace! Maybe the clutter bothers you less if you have a peaceful, intimate relationship with your wife. Maybe it bothers you less if your job is less stressful. Maybe it bothers you less if you're better off financially, so the stuff lying around doesn't remind you of wasted money.

I don't know. People are beautiful and complex, and there's never a need that can be met through only one strategy.

(However, I think that having less clutter around is one of the easiest things to request for you to get peace!)


That's a tough one. You seem to hold yourself responsible for the other's happiness, and the other for your happiness. That's a prevalent view, but I've been trying to wean myself off of it.

People don't make people happy, having needs met makes people happy.


Oh, definitely, especially if you can do it in a loving, non-judgemental way.

And if reconciliation doesn't occur - you have non-adult children, right? My parents divorced nearly 20 years ago, and I actually feared inviting both to my graduation ceremony because they'd both still pick fights when they were in the same room. For them to have been able to communicate clearly would have made my life so much less miserable!


That's sweet.



Possibly, but you can always straighten that out if she brings it up, right? You were probably more angry because you want your kid to be happy and don't see a way to avoid this particular pain.


Yeah, taking compliments graciously is somewhat of an art, especially when it comes to women and how they look. And, of course, giving compliments is also somewhat of an art, especially when it comes to women and how they look. I always love Marshall Rosenberg's 'recipe' for them


So, you're feeling annoyed because you feel anxious that she hasn't responded yet? And this annoyance is telling you that you have a need to be strong, to be independent, but this need isn't met because your need for contact and intimacy is winning for the moment?

Dkd, I am also a woman who has a really hard time accepting compliments--particularly from H. I've thought about this and the best explanation I can come up with is that I take his compliments, run them through my own filters, apply some negative connotation that doesn't exist and then get upset. I have stopped doing this and have learned to respond simply "thank you". I"m sure he would like a more gracious response, but old habits die hard and I think I've come a long way just not running them through my filter anymore and accepting them at face value. The rest will come. Not saying this is your wife's story, but there could be a reason, completely unrelated to you, that she has trouble with compliments.

Allow yourself some latitude to feel annoyed at the lack of a response, process it and try to put it on a shelf and move on. You are only human and it's a human response to want a response!

Good luck.

This is close to what I'm thinking, but it's more about things still bothering her then things bothering me. Perceptions that she may still about what I think of her versus what I think of the situation we were in. Change it from "he thinks I'm a slob" to "he needs less clutter for peace"...the latter being much easier to accept. I guess what I'm hoping to do is improve her perception of me as well as show that the gap between us is not as big as it first appears to be.



Yes, but does she need to know that now or when/if she's ready to try again? It would think it isn't good for to agree and then get hit with a list of boundaries. Then again, she may not care to listen right now...or be annoyed that she's asked to listen to boundaries that don't apply.


I think I mostly need honesty. I'd love understanding too, but I know that isn't always going to happen.
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I haven't thought of it, but I do think it would bother me less if we were more intimate. Odd. As far as financially, yes because we'd get a maid.




I don't think I really do so much, but I have a hard time expressing it any other way. It's not hard to make me happy, it's just hard for me to tell people what makes me happy.


We've communicated well on parenting, it's just other stuff that goes unsaid or misunderstood. Sometimes that spills over into how it effects us being parents, but neither one of us like that.


She is unlikely to bring it up. She may think it, but may want to avoid the conflict. I guess I need to ask her to let me know when something bothers her so I can atleast clarify.



Anxious? Yes. Do I want the contact and intimacy? Sort of. I want confirmation and validation that it was accepted and hopefully appreciated. If I hadn't sent an email, I wouldn't care about that. I'm annoyed because I know what to expect.

OH, my W also usually says thank you. She did actually say that in the situation I was refering to. And FYI, I'd like a compliment right back. Hard to say because it's not like I'm fishing for compliments, just would be nice to hear that I look pretty good too.

As for giving myself some room on being annoyed, yes. I think what that really means is that I shouldn't say these things in email if I care about a response. I've been doing that lately. I thought I didn't need one for that email, but I was wrong.

As well, my W has said that she doesn't want 'heavy' emails that require a response, which I understand. Not sure if this qualifies in her book. Should have just told her or called her.

So, last night I picked up the kids from the house, took them out to eat, then back to my apartment, bathed them, and got them in their pajammas. Then I took them back over to the house. That's the typical Wednesday night routine.

In both the pickup and dropoff, W and I chit catted well for about 10 minutes. She did not mention my email one time. Honestly, I feel hurt by this. I don't want to know much, just whether she liked it, it bothered her, or was indifferent. A simple thank you would even be enough. I don't want to guess at this.

So I'm not sure what to do about this. I know this is a boundary that has been broken. Do I tell her essentially what I said above? Do I give it more time? Do I just let it go entirely. I don't think I'll write an email like that again (or atleast try not to) regardless, but I don't know if O&H is the way to go, or let silence do the talking.

To be fair, she could say that she is uncomfortable and doesn't want to be on that level with me, and perhaps she feels that she has communicated that to me, and I just don't want to see it. In a way, I may have broken her boundary in this is how she's responding.

I did send her an email this morning, about a money issue. That gives her another oppurtunity to respond through a BTW.

Dkd, I'm working on that, too, "Respond, don't react." Giving myself some time to think through what I am to learn here before I choose my response. And like you are doing this morning, reasoning through with others. So I don't have to be hit with the same things over and over again until it gets my attention!

Dkd, my husband also does not respond to emotional, deep emails. He says he'd rather talk face to face but I'm unable to do it right now because it's so hard for me. It seems like we always wind up arguing or I end up feeling as though he interrupted every fourth word,twisted my words around or didn't listen. And then I do a poor job of choosing my words and next thing you know, I'm throwing a DJ out there and off we go to the races!

What I think I should do is approach him and say "I know you don't like to communicate via email. But it's very difficult for me to talk with you face-to-face about some issues. I'm working on that. In the meantime, do you think it would work if I emailed you and we set up a time for you to sit down and respond to me in person? I promise to just listen and if I can respond without falling into bad habits then I will do that, otherwise, perhaps I can email you back?" Or something like that. I know that's proposing an awkward situation but until we get to the point where we CAN sit down together and have a positive discussion, then this might be a stopgap. At the very least, we'd be addressing things that need to be addressed rather than avoid them for fear of fighting. Not sure if that would work with you W---perhaps something similar? You would be acknowledging that she prefers another means of communication while firmly stating that you are more comfortable at the moment with emails.

OH, I think that makes perfect sense for you, but I don't think it would work for me. My W and I are separated and she wants a divorce...has wanted it since last summer. Planning a get together to talk about how we related to each other would be shotdown quickly.

I actually do prefer to talk in person most of the time. She has told me that she wants to communicate through email, but she doesn't want any heavy emails. I don't know where this qualifies.

I have been able to talk with her on small/quick emotional things like this, whether in person or on the phone. I think I chose the email path because talking about how I feel and what I think about her is hard to do in person. I can apologize, I can compliment her, I just don't want to open up like that...the fear of her reaction (or possibly lack there of) is just too much.

Since I will likely need to enforce a boundary here, what is the proper response? Does it mean I just don't talk to her at all regarding anything emotional?

And BTW, I have been trying to shy away from saying I know things about her. I have been trying only to make a statement about what she thinks or feels if she has specifically said so.

I think step one is to determine where exactly you'll draw your boundary. I agree that a boundary apparently broke - you feel hurt when she doesn't mention your e-mail, so you have a need for acknowledgement or communication that's going unmet.

Where will you draw your boundary?

How are these to try on for size:
If I send W an e-mail and I she doesn't mention it in some way [within a week/within the next 3 times we speak/within some other timeframe] I will [pick one of the following actions, or possibly multiple]:
- ask her without elaborating on my feelings whether she got it and what she thought about getting an e-mail in the first place.
- ask her about some specific thing I mentioned in the mail to at least get talking about it.
- be radically honest and tell her 'Hun, I sent you an e-mail and I feel kinda hurt that you haven't mentioned it yet. It seems I have a strong need for communication right now. Would you mind telling me how you feel when I say this?' And then listen.
- refrain from typing another mail like that until I can be sure I'll feel fine even if she never answers.
- go to a good (male!) friend or here on MB for a listening ear while I talk about the hurt I feel.
- go do something extremely fun and active (or relaxing and calming) that will put me in a great mood so I'll forget all about the hurt.
- mention in my next e-mail that I'll be contacting her about something I'm mailing her about in a few days, and then do it.

It kinda depends on exactly what you need, so maybe all of these suggestions are off the mark.

In boundary setting, I think it's important to keep them close to yourself - it's not useful to do things that won't /help/ you in a way - giving it more time or letting it go are things that you might do if you're not all that worried or if you know you never stay worried for long, but you seem plenty worried to me. In that case you may just set yourself for resentment and depression. So I think it's better to set a boundary enforcement action that will actually make you feel better by allowing yourself to meet the need you're lacking.


Silence does talk, but I find that it's a gossipy chatterbox with poor brain-to-mouth filters, so you're never actually sure WHAT silence is saying. :p


Yeah, you don't know. But I wouldn't let that worry you. You can always ask.


What need of yours are you trying to meet by being circumspect with your needs?

I am wavering between your first and second options. If I do not get a response to the email I sent this morning, then I will go with option 1. If she does then I'll go with option 2. Actually, 1 followed by 2 sounds good too.

I am not sure if #3 is overkill. She is aware that she has been responding in a timely manner to everyone, not just me, although she is usually pretty good with me. I think she knows that her lack of response hurts.

So my plan is to call her tonight and ask if she received my emails. Then ask her if the first email bothered her in anyway, and specifically if she does or doesn't want me to comment on her looks. Then I will let her know that if something I need to tell her that invovles feelings, I'll call or tell her in person from now on.

I think this will make me feel a little better.



Well, the email this morning needed to be said, it wasn't said just to make contact. However, your point is still valid. I don't want to appear needy. I don't want to say how I feel and be unguarded. I want to be have my needs recognized with exposing that need to the possiblity that she doesn't want to meet that need.

I know that it doesn't work that way, I wouldn't want someone to respond that way to me, but that's the habit I fall back to.

edit: I wanted to add that many of the posts around her are reminding me that I really need to consider how she's feeling and not just my own boundaries.

So I called. Made some small talk. Asked her if she got my email over the money issue this morning. She said yes, and we talked about it for a minute. Then I asked her if she got my other email, and that's when things got a little awckward. She said yes, and sorry that she hadn't responded. I told her that I understood that she doesn't respond to email and I didn't think I needed one when I wrote it, but I was wrong. I asked if it bothered her and she said no. I asked her if she didn't want me to tell her that she looked good and she said it was fine. I asked her if she was ok (things seemed awkward) and she said she had just sat down to watch tv. So we pretty much ended the conversation there. I wasn't crazy about the answer, but then that's pretty much what I expected.

She then called back about 10 minutes later and said she was sorry if she came off rude, like she was blowing me off. I told her thanks for saying that, and that I knew she was tired and it had been a busy week. She needed a break. We talked a bit more and ended on a good note.

So the result is that I don't want to write emails like that anymore. I don't think I should take anymore away from it then that.

Don't know if this will help at this point, but on my thread, someone suggested that if I do ask H about my letter, I should ask him what he thought about it, not "did you get it".

That made sense to me.

I think I did that, though not with the same words. I asked her if the email bothered her and if my comments bothered her. I guess I could have been more open-ended and asked her how it made her feel. I guess I felt that was pushing it a bit.

She also told me last night that she had gone to the bank to try and get pre-approved for a home loan. She wasn't going to get a response for upto 72 hours. I was supportive on the phone, but I was rethinking that this morning.

I was asking myself if I really wanted her to get approved so she could buy the house. I mean, if she can't, it's good for me right? Well, it isn't. I don't want to see her unhappy, and getting approved would be such a confidence boost. And I don't want her to need me for money, but not really want me. And I don't want to see her or my family have to move to an apartment or something. Heck, even if we ever got back together, I wouldn't care who's name was on the house we lived in, and she would surely get a better interest rate then we currently have. My fear is that if she gets it, she won't need me, but does that really make a difference? I'd much rather be on her side and not feel threatened by me.

Dkd---if you have time, go read what I wrote on my thread this AM about open/honesty. I've been re-reading Harley's basic concepts and thinking a LOT about what a disservice I am doing both to myself and the marriage by not sharing (in a non-confrontational manner) my true feelings on a lot of what has happened/is happening in our relationship. It got me thinking, a LOT. In your case, you might benefit from sitting down and figuring out how you really feel about the home loan situation and then honestly sharing that with your wife.

I do want her to be able to get the loan. When I look at it by itself, it's nothing but good. My temptation is to use it as a tool to somewhat force her back towards looking to me for financial support. But that's not what I want. I don't want her feeling like she can't handle things on her own without me. I want her to chose to want me.

But I will reread.

My wife emailed me this morning saying that she didn't have enough money in the account to pay for child care, which is due today. She asked if she could pay for half on her credit card, half on mine.

I told her I prefered it she paid on her credit card.

She replied back 'Thanks'.

For some background, we are separated, and she wants the divorce. I am currently paying the house payment for the home she lives in and the car payment on the car she drives. This is over the amount that we agreed on as temporary child support while we are separated. I pay for my own credit card, plus minimum balance plus on the two cards we share. I recently had to pay for her electrictiy bill because they were going to cut it off... she said she is going to pay me back.

She is a teacher, so she will not have daycare expenses in the summer and thus should be able to pay off her added credit card debt then.

So I am 90% sure I made the right decision, but I feel horrible and could use some support.

-dkd

Definitely, do not go down that path. You're already carrying her too much. The only way she'll ever grow up or, better yet, come to her senses, is if she sees how hard it is to do things 'her way.'

Thanks Cat. I really, really needed to hear that.

I fear that she will just write me off as selfish, that I refuse to pay for my kids needs. Then perhaps she'll go ask her parents for money, and her parents will surely help her out. I hate the idea of her grandparents paying for my kids like that, and I hate that she doesn't want to do that (she has said so several times). I don't have any control over that though, so I won't worry about it.

I have been considering asking for more custody of the kids, partially so that I can see them more and partially so that I can have more control over their expenses. If I pay for child care and much less to her directly, I won't have this issue going forward.

So what? You're not with her any more. Her opinion no longer matters, right?

If you operate with integrity, your kids will know the truth. And learn from you.

I do care about her opinion, but not as much as my integrity. Ironically, she recently told me that she thought the balance of expenses was fair, and that a friend(s) had told her that she should any credit card she wants to, but she didn't think that was right.

I am not sure if her thanks was sarcastic or not. I don't really wish to find out.

I have been contemplating writing her a letter about the state of things with me, and letting her know that I don't really know what's going on with her. Some O&H. I get the feeling though that that won't do anything to clear up any issues between us.

The primary thing I want to say...is that I wanted to be somebody she respected and thought was special. Her 'hero' in a sense. She has often told me that I took the attitude that I considered myself the savior of her and her son when we first got married. I also feel like telling her that I'm not in love with her anymore, but yet I do not feel that that is a permanent state, or the our difference are unreconcilable.

How do you know its time? I have done Dr. Harley's program and have been seeing a therapist who uses the program in marriage counseling. My husband isnt interested in doing either. He did some of the program when we seperated for 3 months after he left our family for another woman. He came back home and seemed sincere about wanting to work things out. This has been 1 1/2 ago and things arent getting in better. He is an alcoholic but is in denial. I love him very much, but it is like we arent even there. He does his own thing and drinks. He has no interest in us at all. I still think he has moments when he talks to the other woman and sees her. My children are older, one is about to start her own family. I dont know why I am still here. I feel no love, just that he is here out of guilt. I am trying to wait.......but my love bank is completely empty. I find myself lonely and confused.

payrollmom ,

I don't know that anyone can really answer that for you. You have to make sure you are open and honest with yourself about what you are willing to forgive, and how much of the load you are willing to take.

I would recommend that you start your own thread over in General Questions II. You will get more responses over there from people who know more about affairs.

So I asked her (in email) if her 'thanks' response was sarcastic or not. I didn't want to assume anything.

Her reply was, "Just meant thanks for the reply". I suppose I should have clarifed and asked whether or not she was ok or unhappy with my reply. So do I follow up and ask her what I really want to know? Or should I just let it go since I'm either making a bigger deal then it is to her, is content to just keep it to herself and resent me for it, or she doesn't think it should be expected of me to pay.

I'm beginning to think that I am making a big deal out of this...I just want to make it something since I actually held my ground this time.

Just let your actions speak for themselves. You only look weak if you keep at it.

I agree. She asked, you answered, she said 'thanks'.

As they say on TV "asked and answered"!

Thanks ladies. I was leaning towards the opposite. I know what I will say if she addresses me about it, and I suppose that's all I need to do.

edit: and Cat, you are also dead-on about having it only make me look weak. That has happened way too many times already.

I suspect that perhaps that one of the things that's keeping her away from me, so to speak, is that she doesn't see me as very confident, and thus attractive, right now.

thanks for your advice. I am new to the forum, wasnt quite sure where to post.

The money incident from Monday is still on my mind, but it has not come up, so I am content to leave it there.

So Tuesday night I took my 4 year old to soccer practice. I also get the kids on Wednesday nights, and my 8 year-old step son usually opts to stay with mom...unless I can promise him something super exciting, or a toy bribe. As well, S8 had a baseball game at 6:30. I considered going to the game, but S4 and D2 were my responsibility. Bedtime is between 7:30 and 8, so I opted to skip this game. I would certainly miss bedtime after driving home and bath, plus getting them back to mom's. Plus, I would end up watching them on the playground instead of watching baseball. It also occurred to me that I could just keep the kids overnight, which I've never done on a week day before. I told W and she was fine with that, but said that I didn't have to do that, and admittedly I did mention that I thought it would be easier for her. I also wanted to see them in the morning.

But it just occurred to me that my real reason, that I didn't even want to admit to myself, was that I didn't want to wait for W to pickup kids after the baseball game. I hate waiting. I would get frustrated and I would starting thinking the W was running to late, and not thinking about the kids needs to get to bed, or of being on time with me. Totally nuts I know about but that's my trained reaction. I wanted to avoid all that frustration, not have a conflict with the W, and a little bit of...give W some stress free time with S8.

Now why the heck couldn't I just say that from the beginning? I feel like I could tell W that, but probably unnecessary.

Also, S8 called me after the game, to tell me he got the game ball for getting hit hard by a line drive, but still got the guy out at 1st. So proud. And I feel so lucky that he wanted to call me.

So to continue, I took my too little ones to daycare this morning. This is the first time I've done that since the separation, and both kids didn't really like me dropping me off. Lots of clinging and tears. That really sucked.

As it turned out, W was dropping off S8 at the same time (he stays there till elem school starts). I saw her in the lobby I was checking the kids in(already brought them to their classes), and she was basically on her way out. We said hi, and then I had to concentrate on the computer check-in. When I turned around, she was walking to her car. By the time I got out there she was pulling out. She gave a tentative wave.

It definitely seemed that she was avoiding me.

About 10 minutes later, I get an email from her saying thanks again for taking the kids last night. Seemed to me that although she didn't want to talk, she didn't want to start a conflict either. I replied back that she didn't have to thank me, it made things easier for me too.

Lately, I've been rather unemotional and business like around her. I haven't raised issues where I typically would, and I don't kid around with her when I typically would, if that makes any sense. I limit contact as much as possible. I don't tell her she looks good anymore.

Enforcing boundaries is hard, but I need to do it. I don't know where all this is taking me, but I'm sure that it's better then where I am right now.

Sounds like you're doing the best you can under the circumstances.

Ok, so I am considering writing a letter (or email) to my W. I've been thinking about it for a while now (pretty much since OH's letter), although my purpose would be a bit different.

The reason I want to write the letter from a broad sense is to be open and honest. I don't want who I am or why I'm doing what I'm doing to be misunderstood. I also want to show that I have some clue as to what's going on with her. We are headed towards divorce, and I don't want to happen based on any misunderstandings.

I want to tell her how I feel about her, mentioning some of the specific things about her that I admire. I want to tell her what I enjoy in life right now, and what I want to do with my life going forward.

I want to tell her that I do not want a divorce, that I want to start over and build a new life with her. I also want to be clear that I do not want things to be the way they were. I don't want to be the person I was or feel the way I felt. And I don't want to be with her or anyone else who doesn't want to be with me. I respect her wishes to divorce, where she wants to go with her life, and her opinions about me and our marriage. I don't want her to stay married out of any morality or obligation.

From here, I also wanted to say something about boundaries. I want to explain that even though I may want to do something to show how I feel, I don't always feel safe in doing so. I understand that she feels the same way and has through much of our marriage. I want to say that I don't like myself when I don't have good boundaries, that I don't think I'm a very respectable person, and I have to be realistic in prepare for a future without her.

I want to end with saying that I'll cherish the time we've spent together, and I'm thanking for being her husband and learning so much from her.



So, am I saying too much? Should I be letting my actions speak? Does it seem like I'm trying to be controlling or anything like that? I want to avoid DJs, but should I mention any ENs or LBs?

dkd, I think there could well be a lot more than you are doing right now, to bring this to a quick resolution. I just now saw your kids are 8, 4, 2. They would really really benefit from having such a great father living in the home with them. How would you feel about calling the Harleys?

I'm open to suggestions of things I could do. I'm constantly trying to learn as much as I can here, and working on myself.

As far as calling the Harleys, I don't know. The money isn't an issue really, I just don't see that it would benefit too much. I honestly have been thinking about seeing the marriage counselor again, but I try to save that for when I don't know where to turn next.

Well, from here I think your family would be best served by you moving back in, but IIRC there were reasons that you were not enthusiastic about that, though I don't remember what they are. I think the Harleys would help your family troubleshoot through that to get you back home more effectively and much more quickly than an MC would. The Harleys are very action oriented, which makes sense, because it's far easier to choose new actions than new thought patterns. And then new actions reshape the thought processes.

If you are dead set against the Harleys, I encourage you to call out to LA. She also focuses on choosing the honest actions that get the thought processes back in place. I don't remember why you two are separated, but if it's to "think things through" for example, she could think a lot better with you in the home doing the child rearing, house keeping, and finances together instead of on one set of shoulders.

be strong. Relationships would really have the ups and downs. this life can give us too much but it's always true that they'll pass. surely if you wait reasonably things can still be patched up.

ears,

My wife and I separate a year ago, and I never wanted to do it. What kept me away at first is that I was hoping it was going to be a week or so only. After that point, she had threatened that if I moved back in, she would move out with the kids to her parents house. At that time, I wanted to avoid conflict, moving in didn't appear to help us, and didn't want my kids to have to suffer at all. My wife was not working at that time.

In hindsight, I realize that it was a big mistake for me to leave. So the question is, why don't I move back in now? Well, I still want to avoid conflict, although that shouldn't be reason alone. We are in the process of getting a divorce and one of the things I have promised her is that she would have the oppurtunity to buy the house. A couple months ago, I tried to put a timeline on getting that done, and it was a huge disaster. It took days to even get her to talk to me about what upset her and resolve the miscommunication. So anyway, moving back in would give the appearance that I am going back on my word, then I'm being vindictive. Atleast to the point that that's what she would chose to believe. Although she would see it as a sign of strength should would see it as selfishness and a sign that I don't really care.

Beside that, although my kids are suffering with me not living there, every attempt is made to get their needs met. I am seeing them way beyond the typical every other weekend.

My wife originally wanted the separation as a chance for her to see what life was like without me. To see if she missed me. A month or so later, she made the decision to divorce has never reconsidered, not to my knowledge anyway.

That's not to say that things have not changed between us. Looking back, the first month or so I did most things wrong, I was pretty much in a kind of a fog. I then moved on focusing on ENs and that really didn't go very well. When I started focusing on boundaries and eliminating LBs (especially DJs), things started changing. She started removing LBs as well.

I believe my wife is the kind that although things will get better, she won't see it as a possibility that things could work out until it's overwhelming, if at all. She'll ignore the elephant in the room so to speak.

I guess I'm feeling that although strong actions are needed, I also need to be patient. She has come to see things differently in her own time. She is concerned about DJs and manipulation, and doesn't really feel very drawn to me right now. That's kind of why I want to send a letter. I want to give a strong front and show confidence, but at the same time show some respect and understanding of where she is at right now. I want her to feel safe with me.

Just as an example, my 4 year old has soccer practice at 5 on tuesday's. Since I'm the coach I usually pick him up at around 4:30. My W lost track of time and was running late, and really wasn't going to get to the house till 5. Since I was the coach, I had to be there at 5 and couldn't wait. When she called to tell me she was running late, she felt horrible and was very apologetic. In the past, I would typically be upset with her and that's what she was expecting. I wasn't at all upset, not evening thinking that way. She was so releaved. In fact I was impressed that she really tried to get him to practice as quick as possible, and I told her what a good mom she was for that.

I want more oppurtunities like that.

I guess I didn't answer the question about counseling. One reason why I'd consider my MC over the Harley's is that I can do it face to face and my MC knows me and my W pretty well. I wouldn't have to spend time filling in gaps...and he would probably catch me if I had the wrong view on things.

The 2nd reason is, I don't want to go full 100% working towards marriage. If I do that, I will lose patience and am more likely to slip up. I am likely to appear desparate and weak. And honestly, that's going to hurt a heck of a lot more then it does right now.

As it stands right now, I can take it ok when she doesn't hug me goodbye. I can accept that she's uncomfortable with it and have confidence that I can hug her when I really want to, and not feel bad when she looks away or something. I can take it or leave it with no regrets.

If I put all my hope in her, in us, I can't handle it.

Dkd, thanks for the recap, that's what I had thought from what I'd remembered, but wasn't sure. I understand that over time she will see who you are again, and I trust your judgment on this. I also see that you've been a very involved father.


See, this is where I think Steve would help you, with framing this, so that she'd know, even if she thought you were dead wrong, exactly why you were making movements to come home. You do not owe it to your wife to keep a promise at the expense of your kids. I have said this before and I am saying it again there is nothing in MB about promises besides the "Oh, no, but you promised..." article, and you may remember how that one turned out. We daily get new information and I think POJA includes using this new information, too.

I don't say any of this to give you advice. Clearly you are making progress, and comfortable with the current course with the addition of the email. I pray that your message softens her heart and wakes her up that you have a drastically different situation today then at first. Have you read that Why Women Leave Men? What do you think, would something like that be relevant, that you want a marriage where you both will be happy, that will reflect what is special and meaningful and significant for both of you?

Thanks again ears. Thinking about it some more, I really don't want to move in if she doesn't want me there. If she choses not to move out, then I will really dread being at the house under those conditions.

I understand what you're saying regarding POJA over promises. I don't think you can always break promises over POJA. I should probably communicate to her that I think moving out was a mistake and why.

The way I would want to go forward is not to just move back in, but to start dating again, do this together with the kids, and ease it to things.

I have read the articles you are talking about, but not recently. And I like you're last line...I may use that one if it's ok with you.

I'm going to serious think about contacting the Harley's.

Dkd, I don't yet understand that dread about being in the house under those conditions, that she agrees to live with you but id not happy to live with you. Kind of like living together to be with the kids instead of each other. And I sense that this is a big thing that I'm not understanding, what the dread part is about. Is it like feeling like she doesn't appreciate you or understand you, or see things from your POV?

I don't understand what's wrong with feeling a little awkward around your wife, to give your kids that two parent home? Especially since it sounds like you two are not fighting?

I see a lot of parallels between you and my H. If I ask, "Are you avoiding me this morning?", he will say, "Well I had to avoid you because I didn't give you a hug this morning, and I were afraid you were going to kvetch at me." But with a different word instead of kvetch. But I am really sweet to him, and I don't understand why he says that so much. I notice that if I am just totally approving of every thing he does and says, then he is happy, but as soon as I ask him to reconsider something, that contentment is gone. Dr. Harley wrote about an "electric fence personality," in another context, and I'm wondering is that what it feels like, an electric fence?

I wonder if that's what my H's drinking and business travel is about, because it's THAT painful to live with folks who may not like every thing that he does? I wonder if that's why my H picks on DD13, but not DD7, because DD7 isn't old enough to make comments about what her dad does and doesn't do? I hope I'm not projecting too much. I'm not judging him at all. I'm trying to understand, because like I said I feel like there is a big piece that I am missing.

Hi dkd--I was thinking about you as I was driving around town today trying to clean up the mess that resulted from my stolen wallet. Never a dull moment around here...

Anyway, I was thinking about your situation with your wife. You mentioned wanting to write her a letter and then you filled in some more details about your situation.

Your wife reminds me a bit of me--except braver---or else more impulsive? I had gotten to such a point of despair--love bank in the red from our fighting, his AOs and DJs and the financial stress etc., that all I could think of is how I would have peace if I were on my own with the kids and how I would love to have a trial run just to prove I could do it.

I sort of did have a trial run when he went out West for 3 weeks. And as I suspected, yes--I could do it.

But I'm still not ready to take that step to separation and/or divorce.

I wrote the letter not knowing what kind of response I'd get. First he ignored it--never brought it up at all. I finally had to bring it up which I did after I'd spoken with Steve and sent him the second email. I was pleasantly surprised at his reaction. However, when he was home, during a fight which soon ensued after he came home, he gave me a very different opinion about the letter. I don't know which was his *true* opinion--people say things in the heat of the moment that they do not mean so I'm hoping that his first response was more truthful.

Since he's been home, other than that fight, we have not discussed the letter. But I've been noticing that he is addressing the things I wrote about. So his actions are speaking and that's probably more important than anything he could say. And I was reminded of a quality that made me very successful in business that I never practiced at home. When I worked FT, I was a field marketing consultant to a bunch of contentious restaurant and beverage franchisees. It was my job to guide them where the company wanted them to go as far as their budgeting, marketing plans, key account programs, and so on. And it was a typical parent/child relationship. ANYTHING proposed by the big, evil parent company was automatically thought to be NOT in their best interests. The co-op meetings were group-think at its finest.

I always inherited the most contentious groups of franchisees--the ones no one else could handle. And I've got the gray hairs to prove it. LOL The thing that made me so successful was my ability to PLANT THE SEED AND WALK AWAY. I'd let it germinate, make sure it had light and water and very soon, it would sprout and be brought back to me in a subsequent meeting as THEIR idea. It almost ALWAYS worked that way.

I think my husband, with whatever his FOO issues are to cause him to want to be in the right, always in control, etc., is very much like these franchisees. If it's his idea, it's good. If it's someone else's idea, he often rebels, not wanting something pushed down his throat. Why it has taken me t his long to figure it out, I do not know.

So I'm offering you this long dialogue because maybe this strategy will work on your wife. Keep on doing away with the LB behavior so she has no objections. But plant the seed of the idea and walk away. Use the letter like I did, if you think it will work.

I hope you think some parts of this might help.

ears and oh, don't have a lot of time to respond properly, and I will later over the long weekend. But I did want to respond to a few things quickly.

I'm not saying that if my W suddenly said she wanted me to move in, I would flat out say no. I'm saying that after a year of separation, it feels better to ease into it then doing it all at once. It's not dread in that case, more just trying to handle things one step at a time.

OH, my wife is brave and impulsive. As she would describe it though, she shuts down. I would say she's very defensive, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. To be honest, I'm not sure what 'shutting down' means anymore. I think it's very possible that I could become a really good husband, somebody she would love to be with a year ago, but she would reject me because of the past and because she has made her decision. That's what the outside says. I don't know if it's different on the inside.

Dkd, there is nothing wrong with easing your way back in (should your wife want to reconcile). You can tell from my sig line that is what my H and I did. We started 'dating' and then MC. Then he slowly started staying at my house and after 4 months I moved backed in with him.

At a certain point it does become easier to work on the marriage while you are living in the same house. But you will know when that is. Good luck.

I don't know if it's about the electric fence thing. I don't know that I quite understand it. With me, I think it has not alot to do with guilt. If I'm not doing all I can for my W, I feel guilty about it. If I'm asked to reconsider a decision, I feel guilty about it. Even if I know I made the right choice in the first place, I can't stand to deal with my W's unhappiness.

Is it possible that in your example above, your H saw himself as wrong, expected the 'punishment' and then did his best to avoid it. He was either feeling guilty about it, or atleast fighting guilt. One way to deal with guilt is to turn it around as someone elses fault. It's not that I messed up, but that she's so sensitive.

I know this was and still is a problem with me, but I have a hard time admitting how I really feel. I don't want to expose myself emotionally, and I have a hard time feeling comfortable with my own feelings. I don't always feel that they are valid. But then again I don't want to get trampled on when someone's doing something that bother's me. So what do I do? I DJ the person who's 'bothering' me, claim what they did was wrong, when reality is that it's not wrong I just need to admit that it hurt...if that makes any sense.


Do you feel your H has much confidence in himself. Is it because if you don't agree with him, he starts 2nd guessing himself, and he hates how that feels (I do). Does he know that if he sticks with the 1st choice, you'll love him just the same? (I don't usually feel that way)

No, he doesn't have a lot of confidence in himself. He says he has no friends, and that he's not handsome, and I'm the only person who (he says mistakenly) thinks he is handsome. At work, they say he walks on water, and that, he does believe.

I don't know if it's that it triggers him to second-guess himelf. That would make sense, but he changes the subject at that point. I hear you, that I would love him just the same, and you're right, but at the same time, the lack of willingness to find POJA together is a huge LB for me. That specifically was why I was thinking that telling your W that you want to make a life eith her together that will be special for both of you would be an appealing idea to her.

Thanks for helping me think through this. I can see how disagreement could lead to a guilt.

I can sympathize with a lot of what your H says. One your H says that you're mistaken, does he mean that you don't know what you're talking about, or that you're trying to be nice to him, kind of a white lie? If you don't know, maybe it would be good to press him on that. Not to make him feel bad or for you to be sensitive about it, but to not let him lie to himself about that. I would absolute love that myself.

Regarding POJA and wanting things to be special for both of us...My W specifically said that she wished things were different between us. She's passed that. If I did say that I wanted to POJA with her, I don't think she'd respect that. I think that either believe I was just trying to manipulate her, or she would see it as some sign of weakness desperation. Or maybe it's my lack of confidence that makes me think that.

If I could talk to her, and feel like I could get some honest feedback, that would be wonderful. I don't think she wants to do that if there is any risk that she may get hurt again. I'm not saying she'd lie, she'd just hold it in or block it out somehow. I don't think she feels safe with me.

I suppose it would help if I was more O&H myself, but I don't feel safe either. hmmmm.

When I'd asked, he had meant that he thought I didn't know what I was talking about, that my view of him was distorted. It frustrated me at the time, but being here this long, I respect that he sees this differently than I do.

About the POJA, I don't see that as weak or desparate. I think it takes a stronger leader to be able to take others' input and find solutions together that make the whole family happy.

What do you feel unsafe about with the O&H yourself?

Here's a POJA question. (I'll move this if it hijacks your thread, dkd--but I am wondering if your W does the same thing).

How do you POJA when your spouse just says "ok conversation over, enough, I'm not discussing this anymore" and even attempts to find out WHY are met with "DID YOU NOT HEAR ME?"

Ears, I should clarify. The wife and I can POJA on domestic things and about the kids, even money these days. What I feel unsafe about is POJA regarding our relationship, our marriage. If I talk with her about some of the things I'd like us to do in our marriage, she could easily just throw it out since her goal is to get out of the marriage.

For example, I'd like to POJA about physical affection, when to hug, when it's uncomfortable etc. No matter what I'd say, her goal is not to make each other happy. She wants me to be happy without her, and she wants to be happy without me. POJA only applies when it pertains to how we operate as parents and 'friends'.

So no, I don't feel safe, because rejection is likely.

OH, I'm not really concerned about TJs when it comes to discussing general issues like POJA. To answer your question, my spouse used to do that. Although we usually were just having a DJ and AO session, not really POJAing. But anyway, I think the answer is to POJA that too. Setup some ground rules for dealing with conflict that you both can enthusiastically agree with.

For me and my W, she needed to walk away because her emotions were getting the better of her. I think she would admit that she isn't likely to agree with anything at that point. I, on the other hand, need to talk it out, as long as it takes. There were numerous times when we would absoultely drive each other crazy. If she was 'right', then I would apologize, but it was usually too soon for her to accept it. If I was 'right', then she wouldn't apologize till the morning, and really didn't want to apologize for the DJ and AO that happened the night before.

So in hindsight, I wish we could A) avoid DJs and AOs. B) If she needed it, take an hour or so break before getting back to it. I think I could be ok with letting it go for an hour or so, and would love to avoid all the damage done from a long arguement. I'm thinking she might be able to do that too.

But I think dealing with the conflict one way or another should always be the case. Not doing so would be bad for the marriage. Just agree on how it needs to be done.

That makes perfect sense, dkd, but there's no way I can begin to suggest that to H in the heat of the moment. And I feel as though just about any relationship talk triggers DJs and AOs, so I'm reluctant to stick my big toe in the water.

Your wife is a lot like my husband. I might get an apology down the line, and if I'm still hurting about it, then the guilt is all thrown over onto my shoulders.

I'm also the one who wants to talk it out. It's hard to let it drop. Conversely, when I *do* want to let something drop, he refuses.

Monday night I came to somewhat of a revelation. I was attending the DivorceCare meeting at church, and the topic was Forgiveness. They really pushed that forgiveness was not about you and your S (or whoever hurt you), but between you and God. Your S doesn't have to apologize before you forgive, in fact, forgiving will often bring about an apology.

I thought of a particular incident several months ago where I told my W that I didn't blame her for my depression, and she followed by saying that she didn't feel like she handle my depression well, and she apologized for that. I had already forgiven her in my head, and it was nice to hear that, but I wanted more. I wanted her to say something like she understood how her behavior effected me, and how it was a part of the snowball effect. I wasn't wanting her to take blame for my faults, but I wants some forgiveness, some validation.

The thing is, I already had worked that out with God, and decided it wasn't enough and I wanted validation from her. I was giving her way too much power, and that's not fair to her or me. That really struck home with me, and I'm trying to keep that in mind when I start getting a sense of disappointment.

Somewhat unrelated, I wrote and sent my email that I talked about earlier. I was trying to be clear about how I felt about her, but also understanding how she feels and what she wants. I told her that I didn't want her to feel obligated or manipulated to be with me, that I wanted a passionate marriage. I stole Ears line about wanting to share a life together that brings both of us happiness.

I sent it around 10 last night, so I know she's read it, but I have no idea what her reaction is. I didn't ask her any questions or imply that I expected something back, and even though I'd like a response, I don't really need it. I am picking up the kids tonight so perhaps she'll mention it. I'm not bringing it up though. My goal was just to be honest, and I think I did that ok.

One other thing, my W told me that her parents bought her and the kids membership to Lifetime fitness, which is a combo gym country club if you aren't familiar. We used to have a membership previous. She didn't seem too excited about it, and I'm not sure exactly why. Perhaps she just thought I wouldn't like it, which is somewhat true. Perhaps she also isn't crazy that her parents bought it. She has said before that she doesn't want to live off her parents, and I respect that a lot. However, the volume of gifts she received from them lately is really in the grey area of dependence and gifts, and she's not 100% comfortable with that. That's the part that I don't like. I worry that they are taken something away from her by doing so much for her.

I hope she acknowledges your letter, dkd. My H never did--I had to bring it up.

Nice thoughts about forgiveness.

I think mine was a little different as I wasn't asking her to change or do anything, and so it doesn't require a response.

If she doesn't acknowledge it, I'll keep doing what I've been doing, with a little more confidence that she knows where I'm coming from. If she does acknowledge it and is somewhat positive and needs some clarification, I'll try and clarify and keep on doing what I've been doing with more confidence. If she's upset about it, I'll try and clarify if she lets me, and keep doing what I've been doing with more confidence.

FYI, I got a response.

"Hey, thanks for ur email last night. It did make sense."

So I keep doing what I've been doing, but with more confidence.

Nothing has really change (atleast visibly) as a result of my letter. I'm not sure what I expected to change, but I did want something to change. I guess I was really hoping that the letter would prompt her to tell me where she was at, even if it meant repeating what she had alread said (though just not recently).

Unrelated, I ran into one of her best friends in the Walmart parking lot yesterday. She asked me how things were going and if I got to see the kids much, and then told me that she thought my W would eventually realize she was losing a good thing. Didn't really know how to take that. I just told her that it wasn't as if I didn't have any fault in the matter, and that things will work out in the end.

This is one of my W's friends who has been against the divorce from the beginning, although from what I understand, focusing on the religious aspects of it more then anything else. Because my W doesn't want to hear that, and doesn't seem to want to talk to friends that aren't supporttive of her actions, she doesn't talk to that friend about the divorce...or atleast she didn't.

I guess it felt good to hear that, but I know this friend didn't have the full picture, nor would her advice be listened to by my W.

dkd, thanks so much for talking with me the weekend before last. I heard some things that I really needed to hear again, about choosing my attitude, choosing to be happy, and it's really making a huge difference in my house. When my H was away on travel, I did this naturally with the kids, checked my attitude several times a day, and then when DH got back, it's like I was again looking for him to set the tone in the house. What a huge pressure to put on a person, that I didn't even realize! Maybe your W doesn't realize the pressure she puts on you, either, to set the tone, to be confident and happy, too.

So after you and I were posting last week, I got myself back into that attitude, that my attitude is my decision, and I chose a confident one. I was like shocked and amazed that it worked for me just as well with him there as it did when he was away! I didn't have to wait for him to be confident before I let myself be! We went away as a family for DD8's birthday, and I kept choosing my attitude, at places where I used to look to H. In the car, in the hotel, at the park. I had the best trip I can remember!

For example, I can choose to feel confident when the kids are not getting along on a long drive. I can start a singalong at that time, or play the Quiet Game with them instead of feeling stuck and trapped.

Dkd, my H totally floored me Saturday morning. He said, "Nina, I've noticed that you are so happy. What are you doing? I like these changes. I like this new Nina." Dkd, this is so huge, because ever since I've gotten here, he's hated the changes I've made. This is the first time he's said something like this.

So it's really cool to see you getting results in your own life, too, feeling more confident in yourself, and getting new responses from your W, too. I do think that your confidence is contagious. Are you two dating? I can imagine that once you two have your first date, that she will look forward to the next and the next.

ears,

Good to hear. I'm a little jealous as that sounds like so much fun. That is awesome what your H said. Again, I'm jealous. I'm going to remember this though and try and use it when I feel like giving in.

No, we are not dating. A couple weeks ago, I asked her to have dinner with me and the kids, and she turned it don't. She thought about it. She is deadset on divorce, and isn't interested in anything that could lead in the other direction. She's not a fence sitting type of person, she's either in, or she's out. I fully expect if she does ever change her mind, that her walls come down, it won't be a grandual thing, but a wrecking ball through the wall kind of thing.

I think I'd be a lot better at dating, certainly comparend to where I was when I was depressed. If we did have a date, it would be like no other date we had before. I'm starting to get my mojo back.

Aside, my W has a bad back, and I noticed while at my son's baseball game, sitting on the bench seats was really bothering her (bothered me too). She didn't complain though. Anyway, I picked up a stadium seat (with a back for support) and gave it to her. I thought that was fairly slick of me since she didn't ask for it and it's not something obvious, like flowers or something.

One thing I think I've been working on subconsciously is not to just simly do things for her mindlessly. I used to just do things, acts of service, and then assume I'd be appreciated for it, often making sacrafices. (I learned that from Mom) I'm trying to either do things and expect no appreciation, or only do things when asked. It is unfair of me to do things and expect appreciation for it, and it drains me way too much in the process. I could give her this gift because I expected nothing out of it, and thus wasn't disappointed or drained when I got some appreciation.

That's a great attitude, dkd. I'm working on that also. If I choose to do something, then I should do it because I want to, not because I want kudos.

My husband also does this--he calls it 'husband points' and while it can be amusing, the premise behind it (that he is acknowledged and rewarded for everything) is not. I am really working on acknowledging what he does since admiration is big EN for him. But sometimes, I'm just plain dense.

Just to clarify, probably mostly for me. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to be appreciated. You just can't expect appreciation for what other's don't want from you. And I don't know that it's a good idea to appreciate what you don't want.

Every year, my mother puts in a lot of work to invite everyone over for Christmas, with the decorations, and the gifts, and the dinner and all. Every year, no one appreciates it because nobody really cares, and every year she feels drained and silently (sometimes not silently) disappointed. She's getting better about this though.

I used to mow the lawn and my W would always try to tell me that the lawn looked good. I didn't need her to say it, and the reality was (I'm pretty sure) that she would have rather got a lawn service and not have to watch the little ones for a couple hours every Saturday. I did enjoy mowing the lawn, but if I hadn't, this would have been a lose-lose all around.

dkd, I should add, that I've been working to change my attitude for a long time, and have been getting more consistent with it. But I have a fear of depression, so the last time my H went away, I made a deliberate effort to check my attitude in the morning, afternoon and evening, and to pick an activity to "reset," like taking a brisk walk. I was doing so well with that, that it surprised me when I realized when DH got back that I was again falling into that old pattern when I got home, looking to him to do this, to have that confidence I can lean on. Even though I was doing fine all day at work.

The same way, until your wife has her own confidence back, I think she would really really benefit from spending time with you at your confident attractive best. That it will be very contagious to her, to help until she gets back on her feet. I think her wanting a change in your family, like living apart, may just be a lack of confidence in your family's ability to create a life that is special and meaningful to both of you. Which is why I am so glad that you are showing her differently.

I hear you about getting reset. I actually went down to Galveston yesterday, by myself. I just wanted to get away and relax for a couple hours. I actually had a ton of fun and feel great today. Except for the sunburn that is.

aside: As I was there, I was thinking about how it probably seemed like I didn't ever want to go to the beach before. I actually love it, it's just that it's not relaxing with 3 kids to watch after and play with. I can't read a book, I can't put headphones on. I never really ask my W to go with me, because I knew she'd want to take the kids, and would balk about getting a babysitter during the day. I wish I had let her know how great it was for me.

You're dead on about her not having any confidence in us. She said from the start that she didn't feel like she could be herself around me, that I essentially brought her down. I am trying to demonstrate that It doesn't have to be that way.

Alot of people have told me that she will realize what she's missing whenever I start dating someone else, that's when she'll want me back. I don't think that's the case, as she will likely hold on to the idea that we are incompatable, and regardless of how good I may look, her and I would just be bad together. then again, I really don't know what's going on in her head.

This is very relevant. I noticed I had if not an increased sense of happiness while H was away, I experienced an increase sense of.....contentment? And I think it was because I just set my own schedule. Went to the gym when I wanted to go. Woke up super early and went for a bike ride or run. Met a friend for coffee when it was convenient. Went to church--something I'd been avoiding for quite some time now.

When H came back, I noticed I either didn't have time for these things that were important to me, or I found an excuse not to do them.

It's not his fault I gave up early morning exercise, tennis, etc. But there is a sense of loss and resentment that I need to process and in doing so, hope to own my own feelings about it. (and get back in the habit of being content!)

lol, dkd, you reminded me of a time I was at Galveston once, at the seawall, and I see this car pull up. It's got plates from Illinois or something, way up north. Anyway, the family piles out, and they get out a bunch of stuff like scuba diving gear! (inside joke: you can't even see your legs in Galveston water, let alone the ocean bottom)

Trying not to laugh, I just sat there and watched them as they hummed around like bees, getting all their junk out. They shut the car doors, they turn around to look at the water...it was priceless. They all just stood there, and stared! I don't know who sold them on this trip, but it was hilarious to watch them. I really wanted to sidle over there and whisper "Biloxi, Mississippi" in their ears, lol.

Ok, thread jack here but Cat, I lived in San Francisco for about 8 years and nothing would tickle me more than seeing the summer tourists buying sweatshirts by the pound, in July. They were all wearing short-shorts and little sleeveless tops. Apparently, they don't read Mark Twain.

Ok, ok, one more! H and I went to Disneyland 30 years ago in April, bringing only shorts and t-shirts, as it was already in the 90s in Texas. Needless to say, we both bought sweatshirts.

Cat, I don't understand why anyone outside of the greater Houston area would go to Galveston for vacation.

OH, that is exactly what my W was feeling. She would take the kids over to friends house on a school night to hangout. She never did that when I was around, and I don't recall her even really mentioning she wanted to. Many other things like this.

I know I felt a lot of the same thing when I moved into an apartment. I realized that a lot of the things I did weren't my ways, they were her ways or our ways, and I didn't really like doing it that way. I started to remember who I was so to speak. And none of the things that were different were things I couldn't do with my W.

The truth of this is though that it doesn't mean that you can't be happy or yourself with the other person, it just means that you need to tell your S what makes you happy and give it a chance to happen.

I agree dkd. I have no one to blame but myself for feeling boxed in. I have mentioned these things to H and he's always said "go, I won't stop you from doing that". Then again, his actions didn't always match his words and you know how we're always preaching that to WS around here! But rather than ask him why I sensed a disconnect between what he was saying and what he was doing, I just changed my behavior and resented it.

Logical or not, it is one of the reasons I contemplate splitting up.

Telling your W that you don't want her to go out is very hard to do, atleast for me. To be honest, I didn't mind most of the time and wanted her to fun, but there were a few times I wished she had stayed home. In hindsight, I really wished that we could have had more fun doing stuff together, and it was frustrating that we weren't. It bothered me that she'd shoot down some of the things I wanted to do, and be so excited about doing something without me. But I was low in confidence and knew that I wasn't all that fun to be around.

It's not that I wanted to go out without him to see friends, hang out in bars, etc. If I wanted to hang out with my female friends, I usually fit that into my day--with/without kids--depending on their school schedules. So, coffee or a spin class or going for a group walk, etc. Rarely did we want to get together to go out in the evenings. There used to be an active once/month bunco group in my neighborhood and H never had a problem with that.

It was me getting up early and getting out of bed weekdays and weekends when he wanted to stay in and cuddle. On weekends I'd try to come back to bed after I ran, went to the gym, went for a bike ride, etc., and even though he *said* he supported it, his actions often spoke otherwise. Same thing with tennis.

I asked him to learn tennis. He said it was boring. I asked him to walk with me. He hates 'just ambling along'. He won't run because his knees are so messed up from sports. He said he liked to bike but won't bike with me because the he says his bike doesn't fit him properly. So I started to give up a lot of those activities and I never replaced them with things we both liked to do--I guess we never looked hard enough to find any?

He likes to go camping but finances have cut that short since he's been out of work so long. He likes to go out for drink(s). I'm not a big drinker and once again, it's money we don't have.

So I wind up feeling constricted and I'm not happy.

From my experience, I have good news and bad news. The good news is that I don't enjoy doing some of those things, it's that he was too depressed to enjoy doing those things. That certainly is the case for me. When I was depressed, I didn't want to do anything after work. Now, I have something regular scheduled Mon-Thurs night. There are serveral things I could get excited about doing that I just couldn't get excited about before.

The bad news, you H is probably still depressed, and there probably isn't a whole lot you can do about that other then encourage him to do the things that will help get him out of depression, and be patient. I hesitate to say that though because I'm not 100% confident in that. I don't think there is much my wife could do to get me out of depression, but I know for sure that I would have enjoyed my time with her a lot more.

Well, considering how much we used to enjoy just spending time together doing anything, I think you are right about the depression. And given my issues with his alcohol consumption, his idea of going out for drinks is not something I want to pursue. The whole RC thing has become a huge issue for me.

OH, would it fair to say that H fails at most of your ENs?


BTW, W sent me a long email, telling me how busy her week was and that she couldn't do it. She asked me for help, but made sure that I knew she wasn't going to hold it against me if I didn't help.

So I said I would help out in the 3 places she asked. I wasn't making any sacrafices for 2 of them, and the 3rd is staying home with DD if she is still sick. That's somewhat of a sacrafice, but good time with DD, and I don't have a busy day tomorrow.

I hate these situations though. A part of me says that I should say no. That if she doesn't want me, she shouldn't get this part of me to help her out. That she's taking me for granted. The other side says that I should take the oppurtunity to be with the kids, and she is being respectful and appreciative, if nothing more then verbally so. She doesn't want to ask for help and whatever realization that life is tougher without an H is already there because she had to ask.

So which one is the devil, and which is the angel, whispering in my ear?

Dkd, she might be manipulating you for her own gain but if it benefits your kids in the long run, I guess I'd advise you to focus on that? And perhaps your response is making some love bank deposit, some where.

Yes, it is safe to say my ENs are not being met. I've identified them as follows: Their order is somewhat fluid--at times they change order a bit.

1. Affection. (as defined by touching, hugs, kisses, hand holding etc. out of the bedroom, emailing/phone during the day to touch base, cards, etc.)
2. Conversation
3. SF
4. RC
5. FS (I'm capable of providing this for myself but it's still an EN).

Those are the top 5. H and I have spoken about his and my ENs (can't use the MB jargon or he'll turn off...). And what's totally frustrating for me is that if I don't respond to his expectations re: acknowledgement, then he just says "well I"m not going to do THAT again". For instance--last week when I came home in that pissy mood. He mentioned that he went out of his way to make sure he responded to all my emails, had cleaned up the kitchen before I got home, etc., and that I obviously had not noticed. Well it's true, I was pissy and I should have tried to center myself before walking into the house. And in a perfect world, I would have acknowledged. At the same time, if I have to acknowledge everything to some pre-set 'bar' he's got, it's not going to work.

OH, this is straight out of Manipulation and Control 101.

But you know that.

So why get upset when you know it's what he does to get what he wants? Not trying to dis you, but to get you to start thinking more constructively. It looks like you are just settling back down into your old routine. Which benefits no one!

Maybe today would be a good day to get a better grasp on your goals?

dkd, IIWY, I would agree to anything that involves the kids, and nothing else. Period.

I should add that we have had it out before regarding using me as a babysitter, as if it's my responsiblity to do so. Since that point she has made it a habit to avoid asking me as much as possilbe, and then make sure she actually asks and thanks me if she has no other choice.

Another part of this is that this is my weekend with the kids, the 2 little ones anyway as DS8 will be with his Dad. W had already made plans to go to a concert on Sunday night, and lined up a babysitter. Then DS8 had a makeup baseball game scheduled at 4 PM on Sunday. She obviously couldn't get babysitter to go to the game, so that left me, biological Dad, or my MIL. Options 2 and 3 would be difficult as she'd either have to pick DS8 from far away, late on a school night, or have DS8 dropped off with babysitter. Plus, 2 & 3 have never taken DS8 to baseball before. With me, I can take DS8 to school and spend the night with me, taking him to school in the morning. Actually, I may see if biological Dad would meet me at the game, it'd be more fun with both of us there.

Cat, I pretty much do everytime it comes to the kids, accept when it's obviously something for her benefit. As well, I never offer, I wait till I'm ask. For example, I am not going to offer to take all 3 kids on Sunday night and save her the cost of a babysitter. DS8 and I could use some quality one-on-one time anyway.

You're right. The difference here, small as it was, is that my guilt was short lived and I did not act on it. I realized what was going on. I'm venting about it here because it annoyed me.

That's good!

So I just got off the phone with W. A 30 minute call. It was nice to hear her tell me something of things that bother her...not about me but in General. She said thanks for helping out, and I said thanks for asking, I like to be asked and involved. She told me that she doesn't like to ask, and I said yea, because I might hold it over your head or something. She said no, that's not it, so I asked her why. I didn't think I'd get an answer, but she told me because she likes to think she can handle it all by herself. I told her that she could, it's just easier sometimes if you don't.

I guess maybe it's not important, but I really liked how that went.

dkd, I don't know if this applies or not. I've always been very close with my younger siblings. My mom or the kids would call me to pick them up when they needed help. For an evening, for a weekend, when we went on a trip, whatever. Other times I would call and ask if they could come over, for fun sometimes and other times when I needed help. They were a great help to me when my kids were babies and I needed an extra pair of hands. I never thought of it as her using me, or me using any of them. My sister even spent a few summers with us. I was glad for the time we shared. They're grown now, and we all have a lot of great memories.

My point is, whatever the reason your W asks for help with the kids, I encourage you to consider it anyways. Because that time is so short. And because your kids will feel wanted instead of a burden.

When I W were living together, it was the same way. We didn't have any boundary concerns. Now we do since everything changed. I completely agree about the kids not being a burden, and I want to insulate them from as much as I can.

What I want to avoid is being used as a babysitter, and being viewed as weak for doing whatever she wants me to do.


edit: Because of the phone call, I now feel a little mushy inside. I have a strong urge to try and talk with her some more. If she were around I'd hug her and probably compliment her some how. I hate how that feels, because I can't do any of those things, and if I tried to, I'd just look like a fool.

See, dkd, that's the part that is sad to me, that you ar making the choice to view time with your kids as babysitting, something that you will not volunteer to do, based on whether it benefits your wife or not. If your goal is to be the confident, attractive choice, isn't making FC LB$ deposits a great way to do that?

Are you familiar with the full-bore GQII Plan A? That involves you taking full responsibility of the house and kids, and if she wants to be separate, she gets an apartment. So that she knows coming back, that you are a full partner, fully capable of taking care of house and kids. That by reconciling with you, she gets a lot more than another plate to clear off the table, more clothes to wash, and another pair of feet on the coffee table. A full partner.


But even if you had no interest in your wife anymore, wouldn't your kids benefit from extra time with you? I know my siblings really benefitted from their time with us. They still share funny stories from our old times together.

dkd, I don't mean this as judgment. Your kids will be okay without you, too. Just wanted to share my 2 cents,, and I appreaciate that you heard me out. My dad stopped contacting us altogether for 11 years, and while we have a close, warm relationship today, there was alot of time we missed, even when he was an every-other-weekend dad. I also wonder if my mom would have remarried so quickly to a guy who was bad news if she didn't need help, any help, so desparately back then. Who knows.

Ears, I hear what your saying. Spending as much time with the kids is good, and your never babysitting your own kids. The one time where I objected to spending time with them was when I was expected to stay at the house after the kids went to bed, so she could do something with friends. I wasn't missing out on spending time with the kids.

I don't view the time as babysitting, just that I don't want to be used like a babysitter. Does that make sense? I think there will be a point where I can volunteer without any boundary concerns, but not right now. And I spend way more then every other weekend with them. I don't think three days go by where I don't see them atleast once.

I know Plan A, but we are pretty far beyond that. I never was a burden as far as domestic stuff goes, and she knows I can take care of the kids.

Ironically, much of our conversation at lunch, was how she wished biological Dad was involved more.

All that said, I'm going to think about trying to get more time with them, without using the times where W is busy. I don't want to fight over time with the kids (not really worried about that), and I don't want to do it to the point where I wear myself out.

My Father had 5 kids in his first marriage, and was basically out of their lives before any of them was 10 years old. I will never do that to my children.

Kind of an odd random thing, but I thought of something when I was picking up the kids last night. It has to do with looking someone in the eyes.

I've known for a long time, but whenever I'm talking about something emotional, and tend to look away. It's not so much an avoiding tactic as I get distracted easily and won't finish what I'm trying to say. The other thing is, that I don't smile that often. I smile when I laugh, at my kids, or when I'm in a very good mood, but not generally.

I realized that I rarely look W in the eyes. Maybe I did before, but I don't much now...and I think it is a confidence, thing, atleast inturpretted that way rather easily. But last night, I was looking her in the eye for some reason. And although we weren't talking about anything serious, I felt 'engaged' with her, if that makes sense. I wasn't staring, but I got the feeling that she felt a little more vulnerable, but not in a bad way....I think. And...I was feeling more confident. It was easier to say what was on my mind without worrying about how it came out...don't know why.

I also realized, that I always look at people in the eye at work. I'm rather confident there.

So I'm adding this to one of the things I'm going to work on.

Dkd...just read a portion of your thread. I think you could benefit from the same book I am reading...No More Mr. Nice Guy: A Proven Plan for Getting What You Want in Love, Sex and Life. It really does go nicely with the MB ways...I just choose to use more of the NMMNG method...while sprinkling in the MB things. Anyway, to each his own...and hopefully we both find the peace and happiness we crave...however that may be.

That does look like something worth reading. I'll have to look at that.


FYI, I started a thread in the Divorce forum because I had a question about joint custody. I thought it might not get noticed as well over here.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...flat&Number=2250714&#Post2250714

So my W emailed me this morning, telling me something that she was really worried about at work. She is a teacher, and she feared one of her students was suicidal and not very stable right now. She said it was something that I needed to know, but I can't figure out why.

I was going to wait until I got to work to respond, but she emailed me while I was driving in, saying that the problem didn't seem to be as bad as she thought it might be. I responded right away that I was glad, and to be careful still.

At lunch I emailed to ask if things were still ok, and she told me that he hadn't had her class yet. So I asked her to let me know after work, and I was here if she wanted to talk about it.

I'll be honest, it's been a little hard for me to not respond in typical guy fashion. I know it's something I can't fix, but then my tempation is to give advice, even though I know she knows how to handle that much better then me. I don't know what to say, and I don't know how to listen in such a way that helps.

Do you do the 'repeat back' thing to show that you heard? What kind of feedback would expect to know that you listened well?

It's hard to feel like you did the right thing, when you can't put a finger on what you did. It feels as if doing so little is a sign that it didn't matter to you.

Any suggestions on how to listen, and feel satisfied about it?

dkd, I think what you did sounded very thoughtful. Validated her concerns, reminded her she wasn't alone (she had you to talk to).

I guess, just doesn't seem enough. She has been thankful too.

So do I consider that this is still a concern until she tells me otherwise? By that I mean, ask about it every so often? Or should I wait till she brings it up again?

How about O&H? "This feels kinda new to me. I don't think I've been in this kind of situation before, where a child threatens suicide. How can I support you in this? Would it help if I checked back with you every so often, so you know you're not alone here?"

ummm, I can't exactly say it like that. I don't think my W would readily admit that she wants support on this, since she wants a D. She basically only told me as "information I needed to know", not as something she wanted my support on. I actually thought I was crossing the line by asking her to call me later, but I asked anyway.

But I think I could maybe O&H about this without implying that she asked for help or I have an obligation. "I want to be there for you, so can you let me know if checking back with you, to make sure you're ok, would help out at all?"

Sounds very thoughtful! Dkd, I'm glad that she's getting to see the new you.

I wanna said I've always been like that. I've always been concerned, but I don't think I would have handled it in a way that would help.

I don't see anything wrong in randomly asking about it again, considering the subject! A child needs a village, right?

You might also ask her how she handled it, and if she actually did anything, you can (if appropriate) praise her for being concerned and taking action. Never hurts to heap a little praise on her.

Ears, you changed your name! She did call me after work, and seemed happy to talk to me about it. I asked some questions, and wa careful to avoid giving any advice or being judgemental in anyway. For that, not sure that I told her she handled it well, but it would be much worse if came across as evaluating her.

I didn't ask her what kind of support she wanted from me, it just didn't come up, and I figured that when I do ask again, she'd either talk or tell me it's not an issue anymore. That's what she usually does.

Also in the phone conversation, she had mentioned that she was going for a friend's birthday on Friday night. It came up because DS4 might have had a makeup soccer game that night, and she was feeling conflicted about skipping it, and for paying for a babysitter. I'm the coach, so I was able to reschedule the game, and I asked if I could have the kids on Friday night. That worked out well, as she was appreciative and let me know that she didn't ask me because she didn't want to treat me as a babysitter, and I told her I appreciated that, but I wanted to see my kids and give her a chance to go the birthday dinner.

Wednesday is also my usual night with the kids, so I went to the house to pick them up after work. It's real minor, but she told me I looked handsome and that I was wearing one of her favorite shirts. That was great, I haven't heard anything like that in months! She didn't back off of the compliment either, as if she didn't want to lead me on, not that I was milking it or anything. Still, I felt a little high the rest of the night because of that.

I'm not nieve so as to think that this meant much of anything, but it was nice, and some inspiration to keep working on MB principles.

ps: She also told me what her 2nd favorite shirt is, and you better believe I'll be wearing that next Wednesday.

I think overall, dkd, that your wife is lucky that you are trying to reach out and communicate to her. I have tried to talk with my husband and that's been near to impossible to do without fighting--though it wasn't always that way. We do ok over the phone (while he was away). I can write things down to him. (email, letter). I was honest with him about that fact that this is the easiest way for me to communicate. I didn't insist he respond in kind but I was open/honest about telling him it was the only way I was comfortable. His response had been that he wasn't going to respond to any more emails. So we continued either not talking or trying to talk and fighting. I slipped more soundly into withdrawal.

I again, being O&H told him that this is the state where I was, what I was trying to do to get out of that state, and some other things--that was the subject of my last email to him. As usual, he did not acknowledge receipt of the email. We've not discussed it. And in the 4 days since I've sent it, I've not talked to him about anything other than day-to-day necessary stuff. I have stood up to him when he LBs me with AOs and DJs. And I've either slept on the couch or as far over to my side of the bed as I can get.

The difference this time around is that I don't feel guilty about it. I feel that I've tried. So I guess I'm in really dangerous territory now.

So all in all, if I were your wife, I would consider myself lucky that I had a husband who was willing to fight for the marriage.

I have no idea whether she feels lucky or not. I really don't know how she feels. In some regards, she may appreciate that I'm not making life difficult for her, and I certainly could. On the other hand, I'm not letting her decision to divorce very easy for her. I wouldn't be surprised if a part of her wishes that I was clearly a jerk, and their was absolutely no doubt in her mind, or that of family and friends, that her decision was the correct one.

I could feel lucky that my W isn't my life hell either. She could avoid contact and try and limit my time with the kids if she wanted to, or something like that. But she's not. Then again, it's hard to feel lucky when you're W is divorcing you.

I don't think I'll figure it out, so I just try and take what comes and appreciate what I have.

I know it doesn't look like it right now, but perhaps it's somewhat lucky that your husband clearly isn't communicating well. It allows you to draw the line you need to with little doubt, and no one could really blame you for it. Perhaps it is just best to separate whether it's good or bad, and just go with what you know, if that makes sense. I know it's not what you want though, but it could be even less clear.

Well, I think I've/we've reached a point where there's a new challenge. I don't think we've had any argument in several months, and it feels like LBs are pretty darn low. We are both very courteous and polite to each other, almost to the point where it's annoying, somewhat hard to believe sometimes.

It seems like we are progressing, but I don't know if we are just spinning our wheels. I don't know what she's feeling. If I ask her how she feels, she'll withdraw to wherever she thinks it's safe, or atleast that's my concern. And I am ok with not knowing, for now. On the other hand, I want some tension. I don't mean arguing or anything, but a part of me says that we can't stay where we are. If we don't move forward, we are going to drift backwards. I want to provide more ENs for her, but I don't think she'll be comfortable with that. I want to ask her to meet my ENs, but I don't have any leg to stand on so to speak. She can always fall back on wanting a divorce.

I feel like she needs to decide on having a relationship with me on her own, but I also feel like I should be O&H about what I want and put a little pressure on her. Not for the sake of manipulation, but because it's not fair for her to think she she has time and I'll always be waiting for her, then find out that I've moved on. I'd be dishonest to say that the single life is becoming more appealing to me. I don't have any doubt that I could be happy on my own. Still, I don't want to settle for anything but the best life for me and my family.

Perhaps I just need to turn things up a little, and give her a chance to respond. I can attempt to give her a hug more often, and see how she reacts. I can talk about what's going on with me in more detail, and ask her more questions. I dunno.

How about researching other 'case histories' of people who have managed to exceed this spot, and achieve something else? It would give you something to talk about, and just might give her some food for thought, as in 'hmmm, you know it would be nice if dkd and I were like best friends. I could live with that.'

Cat, I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that I should declare that we are best friend and be ok with that, even though I want more? Maybe just see how comfortable she is with the way things are going?

Where could I find case studies? I like that point though, as I really don't know how people who have divorced get remarried (similar to my case I guess).

This seems like an impossible situation to me, then again, it just goes to show that I'v lived most of my life trying to control what happens, instead of just letting things happen. She fell in love with me in the first place, so why do I believe that can't happen again, unless I do something to make it so?

No, I kind of mean saying something like, 'You know, I despair sometimes because all I ever wanted was to be best friends with you and your partner for life, and I see you don't want that. So I go through days when I just wish I could find a happy medium. I did hear about this one couple who split up, but then they realized that they had more fun raising their horses together, so they found an arrangement that let them do that, without any strings attached. I wish we could find something like that. Because I really do enjoy being around you.'

Bingo. With this approach, you're opening the way for something 'more' than just acquaintances, but you're not actually suggesting it, just letting her hear it and hoping she'll come up with it on her own; if she doesn't, you can always take it a step further and make a suggestion of some sort. You never know, if you're doing it in a safe way, she just may take you up on it. But she has to be sure you're not being pushy, or she WILL back off.

Weird. I don't know that I can say that, then again, I think I say and act on the same thing all the time. As far as activities together, we do a lot of coordinating for the kids activities. Sports mostly, but we even planned the kids birthday party together, and are all going out for dinner on DS4's birthday. Depending on how that goes, I'll try and get another family dinner going. I'll try and think of something else we could maybe do together, especially after school is out.

Bingo. With this approach, you're opening the way for something 'more' than just acquaintances, but you're not actually suggesting it, just letting her hear it and hoping she'll come up with it on her own; if she doesn't, you can always take it a step further and make a suggestion of some sort. You never know, if you're doing it in a safe way, she just may take you up on it. But she has to be sure you're not being pushy, or she WILL back off.

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Right. My fear is that it will seem that this is what I want, this is what I'm ok with. Truth is, I need more. As well, a part of me says that without a little pressure, she'll never take that step, because it's too comfortable where she is now.

It's funny, but if we had no history together, I would show interest, ask her out, and if she said no, I would be done. No issues. Amazing how that just isn't acceptable to me anymore.

Funny, yesterday I asked for tension, and today I got it. I was screwing around on the comupter this morning and got on twitter, I ended up following my wife...neither one of us really use it, but I figured it was a minor way of breaking walls so to speak.

We are also both on facebook, but not friends. At the time, I was pretty low on confidence, and she was somewhat in a "freedom phase" if that makes any sense. I didn't think I could take it nor anything good come from it.

Well, I emailed her this morning and let her know about twitter, and that we could be friends on facebook if she wanted. She said no.

Some background, as I don't think I've talked about this much before, but one of the things that came between us towards the end was mutual friends we had on the internet. They were mostly guy friends that I had, talking about sports, that she became friends with as well. Eventually, it lead to some flirting that was suppossed to be innocent, she was just one of the guys. I did tell her that it upset me, but she didn't want to back-off, and I honestly lacked the confidence to stick to my guns. I didn't want conflict with her, nor did I want to give up my friends.

Last summer, that all came crashing down, as one of these guys took things too far and she realized that she couldn't be one of the guys. She asked that both of us leave the message board where we knew these people from, and that these friends weren't good for either of us. She apologies to me for the flirting, but was also incident that she was getting her ENs met, and I wasn't do that...which I agree with, and that this was not an EA.

Well, her reason for not wanting to be friends on Facebook was that she was talking to some of these guys there and she knew that bothered me. She didn't want the tension.

Of course, this really bothers me. I am angry, though not at her. I responded "ok. I get the feeling there is still alot of miscommunication about all of that. Maybe some day we can talk about it.".

I'm having a hard time discerning exactly how I feel about this. I know that it bothers me that I am not trusted with the truth, and I know that I cannot be very good friends with her if I'm not trusted. I'll never know what she's doing that might hurt me, she just doens't want me to know to avoid tension. If that is the case, then I have to keep her at a distance, that's boundaries. On the same time, I know that she doesn't want to be judged, she doesn't want to be told she's a bad person, or to feel guilty. I don't want that either. She expects a DJ whether I give it or not.

A third thought is her statement that "I wish that we had been different". I have a hard time believing in that statement when it feels like when it comes time to make the hard choices to be different, a differnt path is chosen. Maybe that is too harsh. Maybe that statement means that she believes everything should have been easy, we should have been more of a natural fit, but we weren't and I wish that they had been.

Regardless, I feel like I shouldn't compromise on this. Or maybe 'not ignore' is a better term. I don't know that there is disagreement, but there certainly isn't enough communication to know for sure. And I am not comfortable with the current level of relationship, our friendship, when there is distrust like this.

Dkd, are you moving from State of Withdrawal, where you are withdrawn to the point that you don’t really want your W to meet needs, to the State od Conflict, where you do want your wife to meet your ENs? Did you tell your wife that this was an “Ouch” for you? Would you be willing to call the Harleys, even if it breaks your heart to get your hopes up again, if in the end you will know that you have done everything you can do?

NED (Ears), not exactly, but I your analysis is pretty brilliant. You got me to go back and look at those three states in Basic Concepts. I think I've been waffling back and forth between withdrawl and conflict. I'm in conflict now, that for sure, but I know that I have pretty good control over my Taker.

What I think this is through, is that I'm trying to pull her from Withdrawl to Conflict. I see her no response as some semblence of conflict, so I'm jumping all over that. I don't want to DJ or AO her, I want to show some understanding of her feelings, some respect for myself, and POJA the problem.

There is no doubt that this situation is a conflict that would need to be resolved if there ever is intimacy again.

Thanks so much NED, I was feeling a little confused and now things appear much clearer. I've got some more thinking to do, but I know what I want now.

As far as calling the Harley's, sure, why not. I am not afraid of getting hurt again. I feel pretty confident that I can avoid LBs, keep boundaries, and still be O&H.

I was thinking about writing something like this, or saying something like this:

MsDKD,

Miscommunication isn't the right word. Really, "things have changed" would be more accurate. I don't have any issues with people at XXX. In fact, I still am friends with several of the XXX guys, although I haven't had a conversation with any of them in several months.. No I don't want to think about some of the things that happened there, nor would I want to go back and act like the person I was back then, but the people are fine with me. I have read a few threads here and there, but haven't been drawn to rejoin or anything. You said before that XXX wasn't good for me, and I think that holds true for the most part even now.

Also I think it's fair to say that I have thicker skin then before, or atleast know how to handle conflict better. I was very weak confidence wise, and things hurt me rather easily. I was jealous of attention that others gave you, because I knew how detached we were, and felt threatened. Maybe I was right to think so, although I certainly didn't respond in a useful way. If I'm hurt today, I don't whine about it, nor pretend it doesn't hurt. I just deal with it honestly, and avoid those situations if that's what I need to do. Before, I didn't have the strength to do that, I needed the people that hurt me, indirectly or otherwise, and was afraid of what would happen if they left. Funny how your fears come true when you base your actions on them.

So yes, if we were "facebook friends" there could be some tension. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. And honestly, it doesn't make much difference to me in and of itself. What bothers me the most is that I don't want to be treated as a weak person anymore, and I want to be trusted. I know those things are earned and I can't hold it against you if you see me as weak, or untrustworthy, but I want to be honest about what I want.

I don't get it. What did YOU do wrong? Why are YOU apologizing?

I didn't realize that I was, but looking at it again, I can see an apologetic tone, especially in the 2nd paragraph.

I was trying to compare my past behavior to my current behavior, but I can see where it looks like I'm taking blame for her behavior. I probably could leave the whole 2nd paragraph out?

MsDKD,

Miscommunication isn't the right word. Really, "things have changed" would be more accurate. I don't have any issues with people at XXX. In fact, I still am friends with several of the XXX guys, although I haven't had a conversation with any of them in several months.. No I don't want to think about some of the things that happened there, nor would I want to go back and act like the person I was back then, but the people are fine with me. I have read a few threads here and there, but haven't been drawn to rejoin or anything. You said before that XXX wasn't good for me, and I think that holds true for the most part even now.

Also I think it's fair to say that I have thicker skin then before, or atleast know how to handle conflict better. I was very weak confidence wise, and things hurt me rather easily. I was jealous of attention that others gave you, because I knew how detached we were, and felt threatened. Maybe I was right to think so, although I certainly didn't respond in a useful way. If I'm hurt today, I don't whine about it, nor pretend it doesn't hurt. I just deal with it honestly, and avoid those situations if that's what I need to do. Before, I didn't have the strength to do that, I needed the people that hurt me, indirectly or otherwise, and was afraid of what would happen if they left. Funny how your fears come true when you base your actions on them.

So yes, if we were "facebook friends" there could be some tension. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. And honestly, it doesn't make much difference to me in and of itself. What bothers me the most is that I don't want to be treated as a weak person anymore, and I want to be trusted. I know those things are earned and I can't hold it against you if you see me as weak, or untrustworthy, but I want to be honest about what I want.

Well, I ended up having a phone conversation instead of a letter. Very glad I did.

After work I had to rush to make it to soccer practice (for DS4) at 5. DS8 had swim practice at 4, so W had to bring DS4 to practice instead of me just picking him up from the house. Before, W would just drop off DS4, but she hung around, which was nice. We talked a bit after practice, then went separate ways.

I called her later to address this whole facebook thing, and honestly that part of the conversation didn't go too great. I don't think I communicated things too well, but there was no DJs are AOs, so it wasn't a negative. Plus, it lead in to a different conversation that I think was rather positive.

I asked her directly to tell me what she didn't like about me, what wasn't it that couldn't change that she could not live with. Was I too tall? Too whatever? I wanted something concrete. Her answer was that we weren't compatable, we didn't have enough in common. She said that she never felt close to me, that there was always a wall between us. She also said that many of those walls were made by us. She went over some incidences in our past where we didn't connect, and I agree with her that those were bad times.

Funny thing is, we talked for another 15 minutes about different, common friends and things like that. A little ironic. As well, no DJs anywhere in the conversation, and I felt a little closer to her, more able to speak my mind and be myself. She even said that conversation was nice and glad we talked.

At some point soon, I want to ask that question again. I want to repeat back to her what she said, and ask her if she felt we were close and connected when we were dating. If not what was the motivation for getting married? I tell her again that I can accept that there could be things about me that she just can't handle. Maybe I don't make enough money, or too much, something like that. I also want to remind of some of the times in the marriage where we were closes, things that she has told me about in the past as a time when she felt connected. For myself at the least, I want to make a list of the things we do have in common.

Maybe this is semantics, but the terms 'walls' and 'incompatable' don't go together in my mind. Walls are put up by people, to block what is already there. Too many walls doesn't mean that there isn't compatablity, but too much effort is needed to tear down those walls to get there. Incompatability means not enough bridges.

Anyway, what Ears said yesterday regarding the states of conflict and withdrawl makes so much sense now. My W's states about not feeling connected and compatable makes sense, and doesn't hurt to hear, considering the probability that she's in a state of withdrawl.

So I have some hope in staying the course. I can be patient, I can avoid DJs and AOs, and push for POJA. Conflict is ok, necessary even. I can tear down walls and build some bridges. Looking forward to it even.

Dkd, it sounds like you want to talk her into thinking that things are possible between the two of you. Asking what particular things it was, so that you can prove to her that you are addressing them. She was clear, that you two were not connected. If you reread the article Why Women Leave Men, they don’t leave because you were too tall or whatever, it’s because she felt shut out of your life. And it describes how a woman who is “invited into every room of your house” doesn’t leave. I’m glad the 3 States of Mind article helped you with perspective. It helps me too, remember that withdrawal and conflict are just temporary, that it’s okay to share O&H and let it go.

Another factor is that there may be others who she didn’t feel shut out with. On GQII they will tell you how highly unlikely it is that she left unless she has a replacement in mind. I’m not saying that IS the case, just that you may want to consider making sure you have all bases covered.

It doesn’t matter really whether it’s too much wall or not enough bridge, does it? Like you said, you are building bridges. Are you dating, courting her? The walls only come up when she’s angry, so that will fade into the background over time. By the time she gets to State of Intimacy, when she gets angry, it will be with the situation at hand, not directed at you anymore.

Speaking from a perspective of a woman ready to leave, I have to say I agree with the 'shut out' explanation, though that's not necessarily what's happened in my case. However, as I posted on the other thread, it's a tough go for men, because studies have shown that when women make the decision to leave, they are usually done. Not to say you can't reverse the course, but women tend to give it all they've got and then-some, before they separate.

Is this wrong? Is this manipulation?


Yes and No. I partially want to know for myself if there is nothing that can be done, and to have her know for sure that there is or isn't anything that can be done. I know that that is how she feels, what she believes, but I don't think that is the true. Thinking about, I need to make sure that by asking her about what's wrong, I don't fail to acknowledge what she is saying.


Yes, I'm aware of that, but I just don't see that as synonmous with 'incompatable' or unfixable. And your right about it. W specifically said that she couldn't believe that I thought we were best friends, because she didn't feel that we were, and I understand why she feels that way.

And I realized last night that I could do a better job of being more open. Talking about us somehow made me freed me up a bit, and I was able to speak more freely, even telling her that I loved her. I find that very hard to do normally, since it's not reciprocated, I feel rather foolish and unprotected, if that makes sense.


A part of says that I need to avoid conflict, but it's reassurring to me to know that we would have to go through conflict to get to intimacy.


I think this is the case to an extent. She has told me that she has been asked out, and that she has receive compliments through Facebook (one of the reasons why she doesn't want me on there). In some sense there is an EA there. Once she first started working she became very good friends with a single mother, and I think that gave her some comfort. She also has well off parents who can provide for her in many ways. I realize I'm up against these things. They are subtle, so it is difficult to Plan A them so to speak. I see them as things that have to be addressed before intimacy can be reached, but when she wouldn't be willing to listen. That being said, I have told her that I thought internet friends was an EA of sorts, and that it hurt us, and I have told her that I felt that I had to compete with her parents.

I have waffled between conflict and withdrawl, so yes and no. I would say last night, I was definitely courting her. And I feel more confident about proceeding with that. Regarding walls, the come up when she feels threatened. I can almost see them when it happens. lately though, I feel like I can avoid butting up against it, she stops feeling threatend and comes down a bit. Last night her walls came up when I asked about Facebook, but came down some when she realized I wasn't going to blame her or judge her.

to take a line from the movie Dumb and Dumber, "so you're saying I have a chance!"

If I were her, I wouldn't want you on my Facebook either. Not right now. Give her space. Focus on yourself. Work on yourself. Take care of things you always put aside. Learn, read, grow, go back to school, whatever it takes to make you happy with YOU. Do that first. And let her do the same.

IMO, the best chance for a relationship is when two people are friends. Those two friends WANT to share everything together, cos it's better that way.

She is not at that point yet, and you shouldn't be either. You just want her back because she isn't here. Step back and let both of you breathe. You've got the rest of your lives to work on relationships, and if there is love there, focusing on yourself will make you more attractive to her. Needy is NOT attractive.

Ok?

Yes, I get that, which was part of the reason I had a hard time talking about it with her. I wasn't looking to invade space, or suggest that there was something wrong with not wanting me there. I got the impression that she wanted me out because she didn't feel like she could be herself around me, and that's what I wanted to address. I don't care about facebook, other then it would make sending pics back and forth a little easier.


She has some rather religious friends who have told her she needs to work it out with me for religious reasons. I've found myself telling her that I wouldn't want to be with her because God said so, I wanted to be wanted. And yes, I want to be friends first, but I also want to keep the door open and be ready to act when it's time.


Yes, I understand that too, and probably need to focus on that a little more. Again though, I want to be ready, I don't want to drift too far away.

Well you have the kids to keep you in contact, right? Focus on that for now.

fwiw, the person who looks the most desirable is the one who doesn't need you.

That's exactly how I would feel if I were her.

That seems like such a fine line to me.



Well, she said that wasn't the case, but regardless how do you move to being where you can be yourself? Don't you have to take baby steps and test that boundary every once in a while? A couple months ago, she would barely talk to me, and yesterday she said we were friends. I have stepped out of her comfort zone, for sure, but I've done what I can to make her feel like she was still safe.


edit: I feel like I'm coming off as being rather stubburn. I am listen and taking everything to heart, even if it doesn't appear that way.

I agree with Cat's statement. Remember the dating days?

Here I am--having literally pushed my husband into withdrawal with my insistence that I need to separate. I think I have valid reason. All the O&H about my feelings is met with stony silence or a "when you say that I feel guilty and bad so don't say that" and left me feeling really alone and desperate. So I said I was done trying to be the queen enabler and I wanted space. His response to that was to just withdraw. And like an idjit, I'm thinking about reaching out to him. I'm not--because I need to focus on me--but I'm still thinking about it.

Dkd, I don’t think it’s a one-size-fits all. A lady this weekend asking, “why isn’t he fighting for the marriage?” And others who say, “I’m done.” I think the Harleys could help you determine which way you want to go here.

When you were living together, who was more the Clinger and who more the Avoider? If she was like cat and OH, the avoider, then it makes sense to give her some space to feel safe. But if she was the Clinger, she may be feeling abandoned if you’re not trying to contact her more.

huh, thought I responded to this. Guess not.

In general terms, I'm probably the clinger, and she would be the avoider. However, if I start withdrawing, it's pretty common for her to pull me back in...to a level she's comfortable with.

Maybe should I just keep on doing what I have been doing. Basically doing what comes naturally, other then DJs or AOs of course. For example, if she looks attractive to me, I let her know. When she's not so much, I don't say anything.

I'm also doing better at understanding how I feel, I think. I think I was quick to find blame when I didn't feel good emotionally. Another example, last night was my night with the kids After I had picked them up, I got an email from W saying that DD2 learned a 'Spanish Chocolate' song and I should have her sing it for me. I did, and even recorded it on the computer (the kids love being recorded for some reason). I sent the recording back to W. Never got a response back.

So I feel kind of lousy this morning. In the past, I would put that all on not getting a response back. While it would have been nice, maybe a little annoying, it's not a big deal and understandable. She knows I like responses, and really is good about it. Truth is, my back is killing me and I probably need another cup of coffee. I just need to stop complaining (internally) and deal with that instead of needing a solution.

I think you'd be better off researching why you need a response. The deep stuff about yourself...it permeates everything. If you're a clinger, it shows. It makes people withdraw. If you need a response, it shows. It makes people annoyed at having to respond. See how that works?

You're better off spending your time thinking about YOU and why YOU do what you do, rather than what she may or may not like about you and/or how you do something.

You're focusing way too much on her, which is like licking a brick wall to wear it down with water.

oh boy. FoO. Yea. Well, my mother behaves similarly, so in some respect I picked up the habit from her. As well, my family moved around alot when I was growing up. In fact, I never had Christmas in the same house more then once, until I was 12. Those are the things I think of for FoO.

Growing up, I pretty much would have 1 friend at a time until late in HS. Even then, I had a best friend that was in much higher regard then anyone else. If friends were going out, I expected precedent from this friend over everyone else. We were a team.

College was similar, except I had my clic, and I didn't like anyone else getting in it, nor when somebody in the click stepped out to be with other people for a change. Wasn't as bad as before, but it was there.

When someone doesn't respond back, I feel... alone. Like I'm not important to that person. When someone is late, I get the same feeling if they don't have a reason for it.

On the other hand, I can take or leave many friends...even family. In sounds insensitive, but I don't count on them for anything, and don't invest into them. I haven't talked to my brother in almost a year, and it doesn't bother me. I feel some guilt, but I don't miss him at all.

I don't have a middle ground. I don't know how to need somebody, just a little bit, or even give half way very well.

I have friends, people I do things with, but they don't mean much to me. I wouldn't lose much of anything if they just disappeared from my life. When I'm lonely, there is no one I want to talk to, except my W. I don't go out and do much of anything socially, and I don't really push to get much of a social life.

And I imagine that's the solution. If I can find some middle ground friends, then I would not need my W so much. I wouldn't need to cling to anyone.

I don't want to push to be more active with my friends. They all have busy lives and it's not always all that fun doing stuff with them anyway. I don't want to go through all the effort of making new friends. I don't want to join yet another group and fit into the crowd.

I want people to need me, to want to be around me to the point where they want to call me up and do something with me.

Yuck. I don't want to be dramatic, woe is me. It's not like that. I handle being by myself pretty well. It's just that I believe that's why I am sensitive to lack of attention.

Well, a few things happened yesterday. On the way to church DS4 told me that he got a new leapster from Mommy's husband. Of course, I knew that wasn't true, but I hated hearing that. I hated how it made me feel. I wasn't mad at DS4, or W, just the situation.

And as chance would have, I had to stop by the house to get shoes for DS4. W was expecting me, but slept in, so I had to let myself in. She woke up and felt bad about not being up. She could tell that I was upset, she asked me what was wrong, if she did something wrong, and I just told her I was in a bad mood, she didn't do anything wrong...and left for Church.

She calls me a minute later and asks me again. Was it related to me? I answer honestly, yes, but I didn't want to talk about it. I told her I call and talk to her about after Church.

So when I call I tell her, and she tells me she's not seeing anyone, even though I didn't ask. She ends up telling me alot about what's going on with her. She told me she can't stand it when I'm upset with her...it was really bothering her.

Anyway, for whatever reason, I can't sleep last night. I wasn't worried or excited about anything. So I get the stupid idea that I was going to send an email to her, just repeating the stuff she's said over the past few days. I figured it was good to show I listened, and thought it would give her a little peace. The exact oppossite happened, it stressed her out and she told me that she didn't want to feel like she need to responded, or that I was up thinking about it in the middle of the night. She said she wanted me to move on so we could be real friends and be better parents.

I told her that I didn't think it through, my bad. Didn't say anything about moving on.

So I feel a little numb (and tired). I keep thinking about what Cat said, about working on myself. Maybe it's time I go firmly in withdrawl. I need to find a way to stop thinking about us. I need to stop trying to understand. I don't know that I can just move on, but I need to stop...something.

Wow, dkd, is that a HUGE red flag or am I off base here? Have you ever posted over on GQII to see if there is more you should be doing to get your family back together?

I don't see the red flag.

BTW, I simplified our conversation on Sunday. She said she is not seeing anyone. I later asked if there was anyone she wanted to date, and she said no. She thinks about dating, but doesn't feel ready and thinks that most guys would be interested in the wrong thing if they did try and date her now. She said it will be a long time before she does date.

For the most part, I know where she is most of the time. She tells me where she's going if she's going out.

I don't know what's going on with her, but I don't think I should try and find out.

Why does she tell you where she's going? That makes no sense.

Most of the time it's just because it comes up in conversation. I'd guess that she doesn't want me to think she's out partying (we had the conversation a long time ago). Perhaps she feels a little guilt as well, and letting me know aleviates that somehow. I'm really guessing though.

But you two live separately, right? That's like your buddy George calling and saying 'hey, I'm just letting you know I'm going to the firing range, and then I'm meeting my brother at the bar.' And you're going 'um...ok?'

See what I'm saying? You sound like you are still together, but you're not. If so, that may be why you're having trouble distancing yourself and getting her out of your head.

Either be separated, or move back in together.

It's not like that. If she plans on doing something on a Friday night, I'll likely find out about it sooner or later. She doesn't call me everytime she goes to the grocery store or something like that.


Yes that is a big part of why she's in my head. The other is probably my personality to an extent.

I don't know how much that will change in the near future. It will slow down some when summer starts.

Dkd, is physical affection important to her? Do you put your hand on her hand or shoulder sometimes when you’re talking, or give her a hug when you two say hello and goodbye, so she can have a tactile reminder of how that made her feel? I know it may not sound like much, but I think that could be a powerful reminder if affection was a big EN for her.

I forgot where I read Dr. H talks about how separated couples reunite. It starts when the H stays overnight, on the couch, and over time gets invited to stay in the room, and then it’s a small jump to move back in.

Somewhat. She isn't someone who needs to cuddle much, or wanted to hold hands or anything. But hugs, yes. Now, she would hug me if I didn't something especially nice for her, otherwise, I would need to chase her down....and I do sometimes.

Does she feel it? I think so, but she doesn't want to. She will back off if I get too close.

Dkd, I’m asking because I have friends who have complained about their relationships, that not all their needs are met, but they keep going back, again and again, because top ones are met. Things like FC (family commitment) and affection and SF. I think if you could just get back into the house, even if the situation isn’t “perfect” right off the bat, then with these MB tools, you can build a romantic love together again.

NED, I've always believed that. I believe in us. She believes in me, and she believes in her, but not us.

I don't know how or if that will ever change. But I know that I improve the odds if I work on me.

How does this sound?


I'm trying to avoid DJs, be honest, and POJA the problem. I know I could just chose the 2nd or 3rd option whether she wants to or not.

And FYI, this is not the first time bills have been late. So that shows both that I'm not overreacting, and that perhaps I am overreacting, since it has not effected my credit yet. I just don't want to chance it.

It seems fine to me.

Thanks Cat.

I added that I did not know how late a bill needed to be before it would get reported. We have been late before and not been reported.

I know it's important to her to pay these bills. She wants to feel like she's handling things on her own. When this first started happening, the problem was that the bills were all coming in at once. So I had some of the billing dates changed. Then it was that she wasn't getting enough money from me, so I gave her more money. And it's still happening.

Then I recommend separating the bills. Let her sink or swim, but don't take your credit score with it.

Another thought: if she goes out on her own and learns it's not as hunky dory as she thought, being back with you may look better and better.

She replied back with an apology and wanted to keep trying. I told her that was fine and I'll make sure I got bills to her as early as possible. She saying she'll do the same.

I honestly don't want to spend the time switching the names, especially since I may have to switch them back if I get the house. As well, I'm feeling great about having a successful negotiation. Even if it does nothing for our relationship, I gained confidence in being able to negotiate without issues.

And I don't know why I didn't think about this before, but there is no reason I can't go online or make a phone call to make sure payments are made.

I honestly need to watch myself and not be a part of the cause of things to be tough on her. I want to make decisions because it's good for me, not because it's bad for her.

Besides, the cable/internet are in her name, and she is also responsible for the child care expenses. I don't know that there is much to gain by putting the gas, electric, and water in her name as well.

Ok, I have another question. My W called me to ask if had DS4's cleats and shin guards. I was angry about something at work and she could tell. I told her I was ticked off because of work, but not what it was.

So my question is, should I follow up and tell her what set me off? The reason I think yes is because one of her complaints about me is that I didn't talk to her about what was going on with me, particulary about work, and because I want to.

On the other hand, perhaps it's best for me to stay withdrawn, to leave conversation only to what needs to be talked about. I don't anticipate that the conversation could go badly, but I would not have brought it up if she didn't already know I was mad about something.

I think that, unless she says she feels like you're smothering her with stuff when she just wants to be 'friends,' I'd go ahead and keep her in the loop. The more she feels like she's still married, the better.

I just read this whole thing, and I'm wondering if any of you are still here? My husband is similar to this guy's wife, but I began working on myself within 4 weeks of him leaving.

lonelygal, I wouldn't put much stock in anything you read in a thread that was last posted on in 2009. The further back you go, the less the board goes from expert advice and more into everybody's conflicting personal opinions.

Can you post an update on your thread? It sounds like you need to get your depression treated and gather more information on your husband, getting so integrated with him that he could not possibly have an affair without your knowledge. Of course, the number one cause of depression in women is a bad relationship with their husband or boyfriend, so the best treatment is your husband getting involved in meeting your emotional needs.