Ok, time for another update. Things between the wife and I have been going well the past couple days. We've talked each date about little things, and it was very friendly and comfortable. I've been as open and honest as possible, but not steered the conversation in the direction of 'us'. The only thing I really said that I wasn't planning on watching every Rockets game this season (I'm a big fan) because it reminds me of not spending time with her on weeknights. I just don't want to relive that.

She is having a very hard time. She said her sleeping is getting worse, and she is under constant stress. Her back, which has always given her trouble, and her neck are really hurting her.

Last night, I started falling off my high of having good conversation. Feeling lonely, realizing that the good conversations we had is likely just a drop in the bucket. And the feeling has continued today. On top of that, I've got to sign a contract with my lawyer and the amount of what it's likely to cost makes me feel like an idiot. Wondering if I should try and find a cheaper lawyer. I don't even want to do this!

I sent her a chit chat email this morning. No response yet. And I'm starting to worry a little bit, but it's probably all in my head.

All I want to do is just go home and hold her, tell her that we can work through all this together. Let's just let it all go for now. Of course, can't do that. It is my weekend with the kids, which is wonderful, but unfortunately, my eldest will be with his real dad.

I have to admit that probably may favorite part of seeing my kids is getting to see and talk with my wife during 'the exchange'. I know I can be fine on my own, but that doesn't change the feelings inside.

Well, I think I finally have a post that results in a question.

This was my weekend with the kids, 2 of the 3 anyway. My eldest was with his birth Dad this weekend. Anyway, things had been going well this week. When I came to the house I gave my wife a CD of a group she likes as a random gift. She liked it but seemed uncomfortable. We had a hug, not much. She hung around for a little bit longer then left. I reached to give her another hug as she left, and was definitely uncomfortable. I basically got the 'side hug'...she turn a shoulder away from me as we hugged.

That bothered me. I hate the side hug. To me it shows that you aren't comfortable and don't really want to hug, but didn't want to be rude or something. So I really felt like I didn't want to put myself out there for a hug, just to get some form of rejection. I almost always initiate the hugs, so I didn't want to do that, atleast for right now.

She was going to run some errands and come back a few hours later to drop off groceries. She did, and we were polite, but I didn't go out of my way to hug her and she seemed fine with that.

I had a really good weekend with my 2 little ones. We had a lot of fun together. Unfortunately, my 4 year old boy is starting to understand the situation. The wife and I had planned to meet for dinner on Sunday night, and when I told my son we were going to go about 30 minutes before we left, he asked if I was leaving afterwards. When I told him I had to, he broke down and cried, told me he didn't want me to go, and basically begged me to stay for the next 30 minutes. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to even get him in the car.

When we met my wife at the restaurant, he was still breaking down and she saw exactly what was going on. He recovered somewhat and was ok at dinner. I tried to be upbeat, but I felt pretty bad for what my son was going through, and wasn't very good company. At one point, my son pointed at me and asked his mom if she liked me. She said she liked me a lot, and all I could do was look away.

So anyway, we end dinner and put the kids in the van. I'm expecting nothing at this point, and she was all the way around the van and asks me if she can give me a hug (I was a little surprised, though I probably shouldn't have been). I told her yes, of course. And this time it was a real hug, not a side hug.

I later emailed and her and let her know that I wasn't expecting the hug, thus my reaction, and that my son's behavior was really getting to me.

She replied that we always hug, so she didn't know why I would be surprised. I had no response that, as I didn't want to argue over hugs.

Didn't feel like this was a good spot, so I called and further explained that none of this was designed to make her uncomfortable or feel bad. She told me that our son was really tired as a means of explaining his behavior, and I had no response to that. She later clarified that she wasn't saying that he didn't mean what he said, and I really didn't want to get into any further. I think we ended on an ok note.

So anyway, I was really bothered by my wife's behavior. It seems like she was really trying to block out the truth of how this was effecting her kids. As well, I'm figuring out that she has a certain comfort level she wants to keep me in. Her reactions are based on keeping me in that comfort level. Not so close (side-hug), but then when she's feeling guilty, she gives me the full hug. She'll also get a bot upset with me if she has any sense that I'm accussing her of something.

I'm pretty tired of this. I don't feel like she will ever open up. She can't even comfortably tell me how she feels. I know she is hurting a lot and believes that that will go away with time. Probably blames me for a lot of what she feels. She told me that she knows that I think it's her fault we're getting a divorce, which isn't true and I have said that repeatedly.

Right now, I don't feel like I'm doing anybody any good. I don't trust her, atleast when it comes to a display of emotion, and I don't think I could say anything to her that she would listen to. I imagine she'll find a way to blame me for most everything.

So the question is, should I keep on trying to be the husband I should be, even though there is a good chance she will never see it? Should I just let go and let her do her thing, while still being nice. She'll accuse me of trying to hurt her then too. Not sure what I should do.

I think you have her pegged pretty well. She avoids bad feelings, even if the avoiding hurts others.

I think at this point you need to be protecting yourself. You're having too many...unhappy thoughts about her, and if that keeps up you'll just stop liking her. Can you try to reframe your mind back around to you? Be a little selfish for awhile, til you get to a healthier state of mind. From there, you can look at the two of you in a better way.

I understand what you're saying, and I hadn't thought about backing away so that I can actually like her better. I have to admit that I fear if I back off too much, there will be nothing holding us together.

I think what happens as I hold up pretty well, we get a little closer, she backs off some, so I do the same, usually a bit hurt, and she pulls me back in. The result is that we get little consistency, she gets to keep her reasons for divorce and yet still have me around for support, and I get very little of what I want.

I know I don't need much and I would have been ok last night, if it wasn't for my son. We are actually ok today as we've been communicating well with my lawyer visit and her paying the bills, asking me questions. But it still feels like somewhat of her attempt to get to status quo.

She is starting work pretty soon, and that's when things are going to get absolutely crazy for her. I need to be ready for that and make sure I'm consistent, not letting her bother me one way or the other.

MV, I apologize for the threadjack.

Oh, and MV, I'm going to move my reply about my fiance over to this thread.

My fiance is moderately active. He goes to one show a year, the one girls' father can't make. M (fiance) has input into discipline and just recently will sometimes crack the whip. My girls huff, but don't really resent it. M does watch the girls when I have meetings or such at night, and when logistics mean I have to be in two places at once, he has done drop off or pick up. I'd say his involvement was on par with a workaholic dad. YD actually said that if her dad died M would adopt them. I said a lot would depend.

FWIW, Mel, I know when I was in mother-bear mode, I would call my girls "my children" to their dad even when we were married. I know it hurt his feelings, and I regret it. I think the "my children" comes from something deep and instinctual in mothers. We have to work to overcome it, and unfortunately, the 80's and 90's sent a message to women that fathers just weren't that important, giving us little incentive to control the instinct. I think this is starting to shift, and hopefully women everywhere will stop and think that the children are also their father's children. And when step-parents and children form a close bond, that bond needs to be honored. I personally think in the event of a divorce, parents should continue to honor any bond between steps. It's the least we can do for our children.

Well, the backing away as I understand it is the Plan B philosophy. If you keep working and working and working, and get nothing, you can start losing your feelings for that person; human nature. Why I suggested it. Don't know if it will help the relationship, but it will help you, IMO. What you're describing, your dance, doesn't sound healthy, IMO.

I agree that this dance isn't helping much. I will say that I do feel like I'm getting better overall. I guess I'm learning not to get so high on the highs, or so low on the lows. I recognize why she does what she does, and it's allowing me to get more consistent. Perhaps I should pull away a bit, but still maintain some level of consistency. She is tough, and if I pull back too much, I know I'll lose whatever ground I've made.

And honestly, I still feel like she's going to blow up one of these days, and this emotional wall she's defending will fall apart. I want to make sure I'm still around when that happens. This are getting tougher with her starting work and the divorce ramping up. She's going to struggle even more then she is now.

Well, can't say that a parent should never use the word 'my' when refering to their children. Moms and Dads both do it, but it can make a parent, especially step, feeling unneeded at times. Honestly, this wasn't an everyday thing for me when we first got married, just a couple big times. And it was never much of a problem after our first child together was born. I think she didn't want her first son to feel like he wasn't a full member of the family.

As for continuing the bond, it's going to be somewhat more challenging. I have no legal rights and will have less time since he will split time 3 ways. However, if I can live close (hopefully same neighborhood or even street), then we won't be stuck to every other weekend or something complicated, and then there will be less chance of fading away. The best thing is that the birh father understands that I've played an important part in his son's life, and doesn't want that to end. He also gets along well with my kids, so there is a good chance we may go out on outings with all the kids and the 2 Dads, but he and I are very different people. Not sure how well that will work out. Hopefully, I won't have to find out.

I do hope you never need to find out if you and the other dad will get along. Good luck. Oh, and I do think this is a place where they could change the laws.

I don't know how I missed this thread before but I thought I'd let you know that, at least in my jurisdiction, step parents have visitation rights (and also child support obligations). However most situations that I know of there isn't an active biological dad in the picture (dead beat dad laws are pretty new here). My DS is grown so neither of us has custody but WstbxH had to pay 1/2 his college tuition (actually that was a negotiation we came to - technically he was supposed to pay me CS and 1/3 of tuition based on DS continuing to reside with me and our income differences but I waived CS in exchange for a lump sum of 1/2 the tuition). CS can apply up to age 21 if they are still in school. If DS had been younger, WstbxH would be entitled to visitation. As it is now, DS is old enough to decide if and when to visit his step father.

DS's biological father (my first XH) abandoned him as an infant and has never been part of his life until just recently he found him on Facebook.

Tabby, did your husband adopt your DS? If I had adopted my DS, then yes, I would be in the same situation. If DS's birth father wasn't around anymore for whatever reason, then I probably would have tried to adopt. For one thing I would have wanted to change his name. Right now, it is "wife's maiden name"-"birth father's name". I wanted my name to replace the maiden name...and that way get my wife to un-hyphenate her name as well.

I don't know that I would have adopted for the sake of custody in case of a divorce. I wouldn't have paid any legal child support for him, but I would (and will) be paying for his needs as well, as I can. I don't know if his birth dad has any obligation towards college, but I probably will be contributing to that. It's a long ways a way, so I can't say.

As for changing the law, I don't know about that. In my case, I don't think it would be fair for me to need to pay CS, since CS is already provided. Except for maybe for the difference between what DS is getting and what other children are getting. But then, that would imply I get a portion of visitation/custody rights?

I guess the crux of it would be on what kind of relationship has developed, and who would be the judge of that? I guess I would say that adoption for a child who's parent you are married to, and thus are already a legal guardian should be very easy. Or even then, I would think that visitation rights/CS can be done if both parents are for it.

It's really just a mess any way you slice it.

No he did not adopt DS. We settled our LSA on our own though I consulted with a lawyer and had him check the agreement before we signed. There was no question about Wstbx's responsibilities and rights as a step father. The main difference in my case was the complete absence of his biological father. Also, Wstbx came into our lives when DS was very small (just over a year) and we were married when DS was 5. DS was just turning 19 when we legally separated, so WstbxH is the only dad he ever new. Check with your lawyer. You are a significant adult in that child's life. I'm sure even your WW would support you maintaining a relationship with that child. It's also entirely possible the biological father will too, assuming there's no bad blood between the 2 of you.

Edited to add, my DS's name was never changed - he still has his biological father's name. I took Wstbx's name when we married. Created confusion over the years but we managed.

Regarding CS, I don't know how they would do it if there is already CS being paid (unless there is a gross difference in income or something). Around here, CS does not equal visitation (one can be ordered to pay but not have any visitations rights whatsover - for example a child abuser still has to pay CS but may not be allowed to see his children due to his crimes). Again, talk to your lawyer and find out your local laws on this.

Yea, I've talked with the lawyer and there is no way that I can legally have visitation rights, nor any way I can be required to pay CS. Pretty sure that's Texas Law. I have support from both parents to continue the relationship. His Dad knows that I'm the guy that's been taking him to baseball practices and such, treating him as if he was my own, which he really is now, IMO. My wife knows that this separation has been hard on him too. At the age of 7, he's presented arguements to the both, saying if one of us would just apologize, get over it, makeup, and just move on.

We married when DS was almost 3, and we had dated for a year. The biological father was never married to, nor living with my wife. I don't know if it was a one-night stand or a short relationship, but it was over pretty much before she even knew she was pregnant. It's unrelated, but part of the reason things happened that way is she was under a lot of stress at the time, as her brother was dying of cancer. It was not a typical behavior thing.


Anyway, I anticipate that although I wouldn't be living there under the divorce scenario, I stil will be the Dad who does practices and such. His biological father never really did that. He is active when it's his weekend, but nothing outside of that. That may change since I'm not there as much, but I think I'll get whatever relationship I make the effort to have with him.

Unrelated, I really feel for my wife if this goes through, as far as relationships go. It's going to take one hell of guy to want to be in a relationship with a single mom, with 2 Dad's in the picture. And honestly, that kind of guy is probably not the type she'd be interested in.

There isn't much to update. Things are pretty much the same. She called me this morning to ask about a credit card, and then tried to make some small talk. I enjoyed the conversation, but now I feel skeptical. I almost wanted to call her back this afternoon, but I want to see when she will call again. Maybe it's not good to test her, but I guess I just want to make her wonder a bit and see what kind of effort she wants to put forth.


Also, I have a question. Several weeks ago, we had an arguement that got emotional and mushy at the end, and on good terms. I hate to say it, but I like those conversations as that is often the time when I hear some things from her, about how she feels, that she doesn't want to talk about. In this specific case, she told me how she didn't think I loved her, and said that I had even told her I didn't love her.

Now, I have a bad memory admittedly. I can forget what happened last week, even when told what happened, there's a chance I don't remember. But this is something that I would never say, and certainly something I'd remember. I asked her when I said that and said she couldn't remember when, just that I had.

I suspect that she has feared that I didn't love her so much, and not wanting to really talk about it, that she somewhat mad her fears come true. Perhaps she dreamed that I said that, and she has somehow believed that it really happened.

Does this makes sense? Also, I have done nothing about this except to immediately deny it, should I bring it up? I think if I do, she will avoid the topic at all costs. I think there is alot more there, she just isn't all that comfortable with bringing it up. Plus she may claim that she is already told me everything, and me asking just proves I wasn't listening. There is more there though, I know it. I think I just need to be patient and hope it comes out in time.

I love those types of conversations also. But sadly for me they come few and far between. Maybe 5-6 of them in my 17 years of knowing my wife. It is very hard to get her to open up. I wish I knew how to get her to do it more often. It is only on these rare occasions do I get a glimpse of what she is thinking or how see is or has been feeling.

Not knowing your wife I can not say how she will respond to you bringing it back up. If you think she we respond in kind than I would definitely try to use it to your advantage.

"Can I talk to you about something personal that is bothering me? I am so grateful for the conversation that we had (at such and such time). I really did learn a lot about myself and how I have made you feel over the years. But something you said has been tearing at my heart. You told me that you feel like I didn't I love you. And you said that I had even told you that I didn't love you. I know my actions in the past have made you feel like I didn't not love you and I may not have told you that I loved you much either. But I want you to know that I have always loved you and I still do love you. And if I did by chance at one time of anger or ignorance tell you that I did not love you then it was not during a moment of honesty and most likely out of anger or resentment. I am so very sorry that I ever made you feel unloved. I hope someday you can forgive me for my blindness and ignorance. You are a beautiful women and I do love you."

Don't try to provoke her by trying to get details (time, date, place) when you supposedly told her you do not love her. That is not important. It really does not matter whether you said it or not. It is not going to change anything. What is important is that she knows that you do love her and you always have and you are sorry that at times she felt like you did not.

nugget, I am thinking along the same lines as you are. And I have said most of the things you mentioned, repeatedly. But it has not gotten her to open up much. But she has some.

What I'm wondering now, is that maybe getting her to open up all the way isn't the answer. I mean, I do have several pieces of the puzzle, and maybe that's all I need. Instead of getting her to show me the full picture, maybe I just need to cherish the pieces, put what I have together and look forward to seeing the rest of the picture.

One things for sure, I appreciate the little pieces a lot more then I used to. As I mentioned in hubs thread, I have a tattoo from several weeks ago. I also mentioned that I just got off the phone with her. During our phone conversation, I mentioned that during the start of our separation, I wasn't all that stable and I did some things I regret. She asked me if I regretted my tat. She asks because she fears that I did it to try and impress her, which I honestly didn't. I told her no with no hesitation, and she told me then she still thought it was 'pretty'. She then told me that she got one of hers colored in.

That exchange, though not much made me happy. Not only did she believe what I said and complimented me, but she opened up about something that she usually didn't want to bring up. It's a small step but it's something.

nug, you and I want to get it all out on the table, but just because we're that way doesn't mean that's what everybody else is? Maybe I need to learn to appreciate the pieces.

I don't know.

mel_vin for sure cherish the pieces and use them to help you to move forward. I know the few little pieces that have been thrown my way have made a big impact on how I view my wife. It made me understand how much she has been hurting over the years. I, just like you, long for the full picture, but honestly I have my work cut out for me, with just the little pieces that I have now. The little pieces pointed me in a direction that I am so grateful for. Without them I would still be lost.

nugget, I've got a question for you. If I'm reading your sig right, you're anticipating a divorce. If you end up with a divorce is that when you give up, or do you plan on fighting on?

I don't plan on quiting till I don't want the marriage anymore, no matter what my legal status may be. I don't want to regret anything.

mel_vin my divorce was final the end of July 2007. I just past the one year mark. I have far from given up and do not plan on it anytime soon. Honestly, neither has my XW. She shows me that with her actions. We are spending more time together now, than we had 2 years prior to the divorce. We are far from were I hope that we will be one day, but I am putting my best side forward and doing all I can to make the necessary changes in me. I have thought about dating, but then I say to myself. I would rather put forth the time and effort trying to date my XW and getting back with her, then to go out and start from scratch with some total stranger. I still have a ways to go and at times I get frustrated, but I push forward. I just need to find that special thing that is going to get through to her and get her to want to try again also. For now we hang out and have fun when we can. For me that is 100% better then no interaction with her at all. Only time will tell where we land, but for now time is on my side.

nugget, that sounds absolutely wonderful. I commend you for not giving up. I hope I can persevere as well as you have. I'll think of you when I get discourage.

Today was actually a rather amazing day. My wife and I talked alot, for an entier hour on the phone. I don't think we've done that without arguing since the separation. And yes, she opened up a lot and I feel like I got a big puzzle piece. I can't really get into what we talked about, but it resulted in us being committed to trust each other more. Not just for the kids but for us.

It left me feeling absolutely wonderful. I felt like we really cared for each other. Not to the point that she would cancel moving to divorce but very good. I felt renewed in my efforts.

However, I'm feeling rather lonely as well as I'm dying to talk with her again. But that's the way it works, I suppose. I need to just keep working on me and wait for things to get there. We shall see.