Thanks again ears. Thinking about it some more, I really don't want to move in if she doesn't want me there. If she choses not to move out, then I will really dread being at the house under those conditions.

I understand what you're saying regarding POJA over promises. I don't think you can always break promises over POJA. I should probably communicate to her that I think moving out was a mistake and why.

The way I would want to go forward is not to just move back in, but to start dating again, do this together with the kids, and ease it to things.

I have read the articles you are talking about, but not recently. And I like you're last line...I may use that one if it's ok with you.

I'm going to serious think about contacting the Harley's.

Dkd, I don't yet understand that dread about being in the house under those conditions, that she agrees to live with you but id not happy to live with you. Kind of like living together to be with the kids instead of each other. And I sense that this is a big thing that I'm not understanding, what the dread part is about. Is it like feeling like she doesn't appreciate you or understand you, or see things from your POV?

I don't understand what's wrong with feeling a little awkward around your wife, to give your kids that two parent home? Especially since it sounds like you two are not fighting?

I see a lot of parallels between you and my H. If I ask, "Are you avoiding me this morning?", he will say, "Well I had to avoid you because I didn't give you a hug this morning, and I were afraid you were going to kvetch at me." But with a different word instead of kvetch. But I am really sweet to him, and I don't understand why he says that so much. I notice that if I am just totally approving of every thing he does and says, then he is happy, but as soon as I ask him to reconsider something, that contentment is gone. Dr. Harley wrote about an "electric fence personality," in another context, and I'm wondering is that what it feels like, an electric fence?

I wonder if that's what my H's drinking and business travel is about, because it's THAT painful to live with folks who may not like every thing that he does? I wonder if that's why my H picks on DD13, but not DD7, because DD7 isn't old enough to make comments about what her dad does and doesn't do? I hope I'm not projecting too much. I'm not judging him at all. I'm trying to understand, because like I said I feel like there is a big piece that I am missing.

Hi dkd--I was thinking about you as I was driving around town today trying to clean up the mess that resulted from my stolen wallet. Never a dull moment around here...

Anyway, I was thinking about your situation with your wife. You mentioned wanting to write her a letter and then you filled in some more details about your situation.

Your wife reminds me a bit of me--except braver---or else more impulsive? I had gotten to such a point of despair--love bank in the red from our fighting, his AOs and DJs and the financial stress etc., that all I could think of is how I would have peace if I were on my own with the kids and how I would love to have a trial run just to prove I could do it.

I sort of did have a trial run when he went out West for 3 weeks. And as I suspected, yes--I could do it.

But I'm still not ready to take that step to separation and/or divorce.

I wrote the letter not knowing what kind of response I'd get. First he ignored it--never brought it up at all. I finally had to bring it up which I did after I'd spoken with Steve and sent him the second email. I was pleasantly surprised at his reaction. However, when he was home, during a fight which soon ensued after he came home, he gave me a very different opinion about the letter. I don't know which was his *true* opinion--people say things in the heat of the moment that they do not mean so I'm hoping that his first response was more truthful.

Since he's been home, other than that fight, we have not discussed the letter. But I've been noticing that he is addressing the things I wrote about. So his actions are speaking and that's probably more important than anything he could say. And I was reminded of a quality that made me very successful in business that I never practiced at home. When I worked FT, I was a field marketing consultant to a bunch of contentious restaurant and beverage franchisees. It was my job to guide them where the company wanted them to go as far as their budgeting, marketing plans, key account programs, and so on. And it was a typical parent/child relationship. ANYTHING proposed by the big, evil parent company was automatically thought to be NOT in their best interests. The co-op meetings were group-think at its finest.

I always inherited the most contentious groups of franchisees--the ones no one else could handle. And I've got the gray hairs to prove it. LOL The thing that made me so successful was my ability to PLANT THE SEED AND WALK AWAY. I'd let it germinate, make sure it had light and water and very soon, it would sprout and be brought back to me in a subsequent meeting as THEIR idea. It almost ALWAYS worked that way.

I think my husband, with whatever his FOO issues are to cause him to want to be in the right, always in control, etc., is very much like these franchisees. If it's his idea, it's good. If it's someone else's idea, he often rebels, not wanting something pushed down his throat. Why it has taken me t his long to figure it out, I do not know.

So I'm offering you this long dialogue because maybe this strategy will work on your wife. Keep on doing away with the LB behavior so she has no objections. But plant the seed of the idea and walk away. Use the letter like I did, if you think it will work.

I hope you think some parts of this might help.

ears and oh, don't have a lot of time to respond properly, and I will later over the long weekend. But I did want to respond to a few things quickly.

I'm not saying that if my W suddenly said she wanted me to move in, I would flat out say no. I'm saying that after a year of separation, it feels better to ease into it then doing it all at once. It's not dread in that case, more just trying to handle things one step at a time.

OH, my wife is brave and impulsive. As she would describe it though, she shuts down. I would say she's very defensive, but I'm not sure that's true anymore. To be honest, I'm not sure what 'shutting down' means anymore. I think it's very possible that I could become a really good husband, somebody she would love to be with a year ago, but she would reject me because of the past and because she has made her decision. That's what the outside says. I don't know if it's different on the inside.

Dkd, there is nothing wrong with easing your way back in (should your wife want to reconcile). You can tell from my sig line that is what my H and I did. We started 'dating' and then MC. Then he slowly started staying at my house and after 4 months I moved backed in with him.

At a certain point it does become easier to work on the marriage while you are living in the same house. But you will know when that is. Good luck.

I don't know if it's about the electric fence thing. I don't know that I quite understand it. With me, I think it has not alot to do with guilt. If I'm not doing all I can for my W, I feel guilty about it. If I'm asked to reconsider a decision, I feel guilty about it. Even if I know I made the right choice in the first place, I can't stand to deal with my W's unhappiness.

Is it possible that in your example above, your H saw himself as wrong, expected the 'punishment' and then did his best to avoid it. He was either feeling guilty about it, or atleast fighting guilt. One way to deal with guilt is to turn it around as someone elses fault. It's not that I messed up, but that she's so sensitive.

I know this was and still is a problem with me, but I have a hard time admitting how I really feel. I don't want to expose myself emotionally, and I have a hard time feeling comfortable with my own feelings. I don't always feel that they are valid. But then again I don't want to get trampled on when someone's doing something that bother's me. So what do I do? I DJ the person who's 'bothering' me, claim what they did was wrong, when reality is that it's not wrong I just need to admit that it hurt...if that makes any sense.


Do you feel your H has much confidence in himself. Is it because if you don't agree with him, he starts 2nd guessing himself, and he hates how that feels (I do). Does he know that if he sticks with the 1st choice, you'll love him just the same? (I don't usually feel that way)

No, he doesn't have a lot of confidence in himself. He says he has no friends, and that he's not handsome, and I'm the only person who (he says mistakenly) thinks he is handsome. At work, they say he walks on water, and that, he does believe.

I don't know if it's that it triggers him to second-guess himelf. That would make sense, but he changes the subject at that point. I hear you, that I would love him just the same, and you're right, but at the same time, the lack of willingness to find POJA together is a huge LB for me. That specifically was why I was thinking that telling your W that you want to make a life eith her together that will be special for both of you would be an appealing idea to her.

Thanks for helping me think through this. I can see how disagreement could lead to a guilt.

I can sympathize with a lot of what your H says. One your H says that you're mistaken, does he mean that you don't know what you're talking about, or that you're trying to be nice to him, kind of a white lie? If you don't know, maybe it would be good to press him on that. Not to make him feel bad or for you to be sensitive about it, but to not let him lie to himself about that. I would absolute love that myself.

Regarding POJA and wanting things to be special for both of us...My W specifically said that she wished things were different between us. She's passed that. If I did say that I wanted to POJA with her, I don't think she'd respect that. I think that either believe I was just trying to manipulate her, or she would see it as some sign of weakness desperation. Or maybe it's my lack of confidence that makes me think that.

If I could talk to her, and feel like I could get some honest feedback, that would be wonderful. I don't think she wants to do that if there is any risk that she may get hurt again. I'm not saying she'd lie, she'd just hold it in or block it out somehow. I don't think she feels safe with me.

I suppose it would help if I was more O&H myself, but I don't feel safe either. hmmmm.

When I'd asked, he had meant that he thought I didn't know what I was talking about, that my view of him was distorted. It frustrated me at the time, but being here this long, I respect that he sees this differently than I do.

About the POJA, I don't see that as weak or desparate. I think it takes a stronger leader to be able to take others' input and find solutions together that make the whole family happy.

What do you feel unsafe about with the O&H yourself?

Here's a POJA question. (I'll move this if it hijacks your thread, dkd--but I am wondering if your W does the same thing).

How do you POJA when your spouse just says "ok conversation over, enough, I'm not discussing this anymore" and even attempts to find out WHY are met with "DID YOU NOT HEAR ME?"

Ears, I should clarify. The wife and I can POJA on domestic things and about the kids, even money these days. What I feel unsafe about is POJA regarding our relationship, our marriage. If I talk with her about some of the things I'd like us to do in our marriage, she could easily just throw it out since her goal is to get out of the marriage.

For example, I'd like to POJA about physical affection, when to hug, when it's uncomfortable etc. No matter what I'd say, her goal is not to make each other happy. She wants me to be happy without her, and she wants to be happy without me. POJA only applies when it pertains to how we operate as parents and 'friends'.

So no, I don't feel safe, because rejection is likely.

OH, I'm not really concerned about TJs when it comes to discussing general issues like POJA. To answer your question, my spouse used to do that. Although we usually were just having a DJ and AO session, not really POJAing. But anyway, I think the answer is to POJA that too. Setup some ground rules for dealing with conflict that you both can enthusiastically agree with.

For me and my W, she needed to walk away because her emotions were getting the better of her. I think she would admit that she isn't likely to agree with anything at that point. I, on the other hand, need to talk it out, as long as it takes. There were numerous times when we would absoultely drive each other crazy. If she was 'right', then I would apologize, but it was usually too soon for her to accept it. If I was 'right', then she wouldn't apologize till the morning, and really didn't want to apologize for the DJ and AO that happened the night before.

So in hindsight, I wish we could A) avoid DJs and AOs. B) If she needed it, take an hour or so break before getting back to it. I think I could be ok with letting it go for an hour or so, and would love to avoid all the damage done from a long arguement. I'm thinking she might be able to do that too.

But I think dealing with the conflict one way or another should always be the case. Not doing so would be bad for the marriage. Just agree on how it needs to be done.

That makes perfect sense, dkd, but there's no way I can begin to suggest that to H in the heat of the moment. And I feel as though just about any relationship talk triggers DJs and AOs, so I'm reluctant to stick my big toe in the water.

Your wife is a lot like my husband. I might get an apology down the line, and if I'm still hurting about it, then the guilt is all thrown over onto my shoulders.

I'm also the one who wants to talk it out. It's hard to let it drop. Conversely, when I *do* want to let something drop, he refuses.

Monday night I came to somewhat of a revelation. I was attending the DivorceCare meeting at church, and the topic was Forgiveness. They really pushed that forgiveness was not about you and your S (or whoever hurt you), but between you and God. Your S doesn't have to apologize before you forgive, in fact, forgiving will often bring about an apology.

I thought of a particular incident several months ago where I told my W that I didn't blame her for my depression, and she followed by saying that she didn't feel like she handle my depression well, and she apologized for that. I had already forgiven her in my head, and it was nice to hear that, but I wanted more. I wanted her to say something like she understood how her behavior effected me, and how it was a part of the snowball effect. I wasn't wanting her to take blame for my faults, but I wants some forgiveness, some validation.

The thing is, I already had worked that out with God, and decided it wasn't enough and I wanted validation from her. I was giving her way too much power, and that's not fair to her or me. That really struck home with me, and I'm trying to keep that in mind when I start getting a sense of disappointment.

Somewhat unrelated, I wrote and sent my email that I talked about earlier. I was trying to be clear about how I felt about her, but also understanding how she feels and what she wants. I told her that I didn't want her to feel obligated or manipulated to be with me, that I wanted a passionate marriage. I stole Ears line about wanting to share a life together that brings both of us happiness.

I sent it around 10 last night, so I know she's read it, but I have no idea what her reaction is. I didn't ask her any questions or imply that I expected something back, and even though I'd like a response, I don't really need it. I am picking up the kids tonight so perhaps she'll mention it. I'm not bringing it up though. My goal was just to be honest, and I think I did that ok.

One other thing, my W told me that her parents bought her and the kids membership to Lifetime fitness, which is a combo gym country club if you aren't familiar. We used to have a membership previous. She didn't seem too excited about it, and I'm not sure exactly why. Perhaps she just thought I wouldn't like it, which is somewhat true. Perhaps she also isn't crazy that her parents bought it. She has said before that she doesn't want to live off her parents, and I respect that a lot. However, the volume of gifts she received from them lately is really in the grey area of dependence and gifts, and she's not 100% comfortable with that. That's the part that I don't like. I worry that they are taken something away from her by doing so much for her.

I hope she acknowledges your letter, dkd. My H never did--I had to bring it up.

Nice thoughts about forgiveness.

I think mine was a little different as I wasn't asking her to change or do anything, and so it doesn't require a response.

If she doesn't acknowledge it, I'll keep doing what I've been doing, with a little more confidence that she knows where I'm coming from. If she does acknowledge it and is somewhat positive and needs some clarification, I'll try and clarify and keep on doing what I've been doing with more confidence. If she's upset about it, I'll try and clarify if she lets me, and keep doing what I've been doing with more confidence.

FYI, I got a response.

"Hey, thanks for ur email last night. It did make sense."

So I keep doing what I've been doing, but with more confidence.

Nothing has really change (atleast visibly) as a result of my letter. I'm not sure what I expected to change, but I did want something to change. I guess I was really hoping that the letter would prompt her to tell me where she was at, even if it meant repeating what she had alread said (though just not recently).

Unrelated, I ran into one of her best friends in the Walmart parking lot yesterday. She asked me how things were going and if I got to see the kids much, and then told me that she thought my W would eventually realize she was losing a good thing. Didn't really know how to take that. I just told her that it wasn't as if I didn't have any fault in the matter, and that things will work out in the end.

This is one of my W's friends who has been against the divorce from the beginning, although from what I understand, focusing on the religious aspects of it more then anything else. Because my W doesn't want to hear that, and doesn't seem to want to talk to friends that aren't supporttive of her actions, she doesn't talk to that friend about the divorce...or atleast she didn't.

I guess it felt good to hear that, but I know this friend didn't have the full picture, nor would her advice be listened to by my W.

dkd, thanks so much for talking with me the weekend before last. I heard some things that I really needed to hear again, about choosing my attitude, choosing to be happy, and it's really making a huge difference in my house. When my H was away on travel, I did this naturally with the kids, checked my attitude several times a day, and then when DH got back, it's like I was again looking for him to set the tone in the house. What a huge pressure to put on a person, that I didn't even realize! Maybe your W doesn't realize the pressure she puts on you, either, to set the tone, to be confident and happy, too.

So after you and I were posting last week, I got myself back into that attitude, that my attitude is my decision, and I chose a confident one. I was like shocked and amazed that it worked for me just as well with him there as it did when he was away! I didn't have to wait for him to be confident before I let myself be! We went away as a family for DD8's birthday, and I kept choosing my attitude, at places where I used to look to H. In the car, in the hotel, at the park. I had the best trip I can remember!

For example, I can choose to feel confident when the kids are not getting along on a long drive. I can start a singalong at that time, or play the Quiet Game with them instead of feeling stuck and trapped.

Dkd, my H totally floored me Saturday morning. He said, "Nina, I've noticed that you are so happy. What are you doing? I like these changes. I like this new Nina." Dkd, this is so huge, because ever since I've gotten here, he's hated the changes I've made. This is the first time he's said something like this.

So it's really cool to see you getting results in your own life, too, feeling more confident in yourself, and getting new responses from your W, too. I do think that your confidence is contagious. Are you two dating? I can imagine that once you two have your first date, that she will look forward to the next and the next.

ears,

Good to hear. I'm a little jealous as that sounds like so much fun. That is awesome what your H said. Again, I'm jealous. I'm going to remember this though and try and use it when I feel like giving in.

No, we are not dating. A couple weeks ago, I asked her to have dinner with me and the kids, and she turned it don't. She thought about it. She is deadset on divorce, and isn't interested in anything that could lead in the other direction. She's not a fence sitting type of person, she's either in, or she's out. I fully expect if she does ever change her mind, that her walls come down, it won't be a grandual thing, but a wrecking ball through the wall kind of thing.

I think I'd be a lot better at dating, certainly comparend to where I was when I was depressed. If we did have a date, it would be like no other date we had before. I'm starting to get my mojo back.

Aside, my W has a bad back, and I noticed while at my son's baseball game, sitting on the bench seats was really bothering her (bothered me too). She didn't complain though. Anyway, I picked up a stadium seat (with a back for support) and gave it to her. I thought that was fairly slick of me since she didn't ask for it and it's not something obvious, like flowers or something.

One thing I think I've been working on subconsciously is not to just simly do things for her mindlessly. I used to just do things, acts of service, and then assume I'd be appreciated for it, often making sacrafices. (I learned that from Mom) I'm trying to either do things and expect no appreciation, or only do things when asked. It is unfair of me to do things and expect appreciation for it, and it drains me way too much in the process. I could give her this gift because I expected nothing out of it, and thus wasn't disappointed or drained when I got some appreciation.