So I'm just going to continue rambling on in this thread.

The weekend went pretty well, although no progress that I could hang my hat on. I lunch with the wife and kids on thursday. It was nice but a little ackward. I went to the house to be with the kids on Saturday morning, and as it turns out the kids were still sleeping and the wife had an hour before her hair appt, so we had time to talk.

It was interesting in that every time I come back to the house, I see something has changed. Some new decoration or new furniture, or she's move some of my furniture to the garage. I struggle with this a lot in that the house is still hours, and there is no guarantee she will get the house if/when we get a divorce. I know she's trying to move on, but it feels like she's pushing me out. I really have tried to show her that I appreciate her individuality, but that it's not always easy to watch.

From her side, she takes it as a personal attack. She believes that I don't like any of her opinions on decorating, which is not true...I'm just not void of opinions myself. A perfect example is our kitchen table, which was a square wood table that I brought into the marraige, pretty much the last thing that was mine originally. So when the 3rd kid was coming, we knew we needed a bigger table, and conviently her parents were getting rid of their big glass table. I wasn't crazy about it because I just had never grown up with glass tables and liked what we had. So anyway, she takes that as me dissing her opinions and putting her down. It really had nothing to do with her. I have to admit that I'm picky about things (working on it) but disagreeing with her doesn't mean I think she's wrong. In fact, I've learned to trust her views over my own in most cases. heck, if I have to get a new place, I'll get her opinion on decorating often.

And yes, the table thing happened over 2 years ago, but yet it's still unforgotten. I know part of the problem is how I say things, to make it sound a little demeaning perhaps. I'm working on that and watching judgements in general.

But anyway, we she came back by the house on Sunday evening, I didn't leave right away and we ended up all going out to dinner. Everything was great, like we were still happy. She won't deny that, but she won't let it mean anything either.

Switching topics again, when pressed (which I don't do anymore) she will always tell me that she's happier now, and I think she is in that she doesn't worry about sharing with me or how I might view something she's doing. I get that. But when we are talking honestly, she tells me that she's getting her anti-depression meds upped (like me), she can't sleep well at night (like me), she gets lonely and bored (like me), and is scared about the future (like me).

I understand and believe that she doesn't feel like she loves me anymore, except as the father of her children (not sure I know what that means), but I still believe that if feeling can change once, they can change again. And that perhaps it's not so much that feelings have changed, but that they are buried under years of unresolved hurt, and the cost and risk of digging it up doesn't seem worth it.

But mostly, this weekend taught me that I can keep working on my things and be happy, and appreciate the time I get to spend with kids and the wife and be happy. I know she'll push me away again, probably several times, but that doesn't mean I have to give up until I'm ready to.

Ok, more rambling.

Last Wednesday, I saw a lawyer for the first time. I hated it. Discussing my options when I really didn't want any of them was very depressing. So I talked to the wife afterwards and let her know what I found out and how I felt about everything. We process to trust and be honest through this, so I was.

So on Thursday, I was set not to contact her at all and give myself some space, and I as I could have predicted, she called me at around 8:30 in the morning. She said my younger son wanted to talk me, but I knew better since my son doesn't think about talking on the phone. I knew he was prompted to want to talk to me. So after I talk to my Son, the wife asks me if I'm ok, which I said yes half heartedly, which was pretty honest.

About 10 minutes later, she calls again with my other son wanting to talk to me. I talk with him and then she asks if I'm mad at her. I replied that wasn't the right word for how I felt, followed by awkard silence, then "what do you want me to say?".

Didn't talk on Friday or Saturday. My wife has been skipping church lately, but I've been going even though it's an hour a way. But surprisingly, she's there. And things are very awkward, but polite. She tells me she sent an email yesterday, but I never got it (wrong address). So about 30 minutes after church she sends me the email, which basically says she sorry. Then another email saying she's sorry she was rude to me at Church, she was having a hard time.

No contact on Monday, but on Tuesday I let her know through email that I'm seeing the counselor today. She replies that that's a good thing, which kinda upsets me since she refuses to go. But I let it go.

After my session I live flowers at the front door for her. She sends me an email about an hour to say thanks and they're beautiful...nothing else. I'm kind of annoyed that that is the extent of the appreciation, so I just respond with a simple You're Welcome. She replies back with some unrelated news, basically to change the subject and get this at an ok level for her again.

Still on Tuesday (yesterday), I let her know in email that I'm worried about her and all that she's going through. She says thanks and admits that it's very hard at times, but I don't need to worry. She thinks things will be easier when she's working.

Even this is no infidelity here, it feels like she's somewhat in a fog. She knows that life is going to be tough without me around and she wants me to be around as a friend. But she is in denial about several things. She says that she's happier now, but that is only at times when she's avoiding reality. She has trouble sleeping and is on depression medication. She admits as well to being very nervous about working again. She will tell me that she can never see me as a caring person again, but then when I repeat it back to her, she backs off as she hears how hurtful that is. She says that she refuses to let her father pay for her legal fees out of pride, but will let her mom take her clothes shopping, will ask them to cosign any loan she needs, and will likely ask for money from them later on as she won't be able to make ends meet. She says she won't need a relationship, but no one is that way, and she knows that a mother with 3 kids from two fathers will be a difficult match.

I'm starting to believe that part of the reason she is unable to forgive and move on has to do with her upbringing. For one, her family is well off and tends to never deal with tough issues when you can buy your way out of it. Second, she has told me before that she didn't feel like her step dad expressed love for her very much. He got on her for grades, and that's about it. I wonder if the fact that she was hurt by her father without him apologizing, is preventing her from accepting my apologies. As if she doesn't know how exactly, only to take the place of being hurt, or to remove oneself from the situation. She does know that resentment is not right and that it's hurtful to herself and others, but she feels that her actions are correct anyway.

So that's how I see her, but I've been realize that if I look objectively at myself, I don't look too hot. I've lost about 15 lbs through all of this. Although I'm coming out of depression, I know I'm not living up to what I'm capable of at work, etc. And honestly, I bail her out a bit too much. I want to show her that I care and be consistent, but I have to let her feel what she's doing.

I've learned from here that just because someone doesn't feel love for their spouse anymore doesn't mean that a spark can't be rekindled. It feels like I should just wait till she figures things out, though she may never get there. I've been told that she'll realize her mistake when one of us starts seeing other people, but that will probably be too late.

If you want your marriage back, you need to start becoming more involved, whichever way you can. Get the kids more. Ask if you can bring her groceries. Offer to get her car inspected for her.

Start doing the things you should have been doing; you'll just have to do it from another home. If you stick with this, remain in her field of vision, I can see her wanting you back.

I will tell you, as a female, we females are kind of 'taught' to put ourselves last, to make sure everyone's taken care of, to ignore our needs. It takes its toll, though. That's why so many women divorce when the kids graduate and leave - they realize they've spent 20-30 years being something other than themselves, and they truly DO need to be able to differentiate themselves from their roles. To have time and space to figure out who they are, who they would have turned out to be if they hadn't shut all that down to keep everyone taken care of. What she's saying is definitely a valid point.

But you being aware of it all, and coming here to learn, puts you in a fairly good spot. It's possible she still loves you, just needs this right now. (assuming there's not an affair; then it's all moot)

Either that or maybe it's time for Plan B.

I get really, really mad at spouses who leave but want to be friends. If you can be friends, then you can work it out. (excpetions being spouses who are homosexual)

I think people can be civil, but that's different from asking favors, talking on the phone, etc.

It's hard to know what's they way to go.

I have always been good at looking out for her in terms of service. I've been ok with the kids. The problem was more that she felt I didn't like her and trust her to be her, amoung other things. Doing things is hard right now since my homes are an hour apart right now.


That makes a lot of sense, but I think she sees it more as me keeping her from being her more then anything else. I see why, but I've been working on that. She seems me as selfish and always looking out for me.

For example, in email she just told me that she sees herself as Birdie from the movie Hope Floats, and I told her I didn't see that at all. She got offended saying that I was judging her and trying to figure out what she was indirectly saying at me. I was just making conversation and trying to boost her up a bit as I see Birdie as a somewhat depressed character.


We'll see. There is no affair. One of her friends accussed her of that at the beginning of our separation, and she called me in tears asking whether I thought she was a cheater as it really hurt her. She could have started something since then but I seriously doubt considering her behavior. She does talk with a lot of guys on the internet, but is very open about it. I do see it as flirting sometimes, but I don't know how much of that is my insecurity. When the times comes, I figured out how to say it without blame, and she'll listen, and It still bothers me, then I'll address that.

GG, she is convinced that love that goes away cannot return. So therefore we can be friendly and need to be for the sake of the kids, but nothing more. For the most part she justifies asking favors as for the sake of the children in one form or another.

We honestly don't talk on the phone and do more then be civil accept when we are physically together, then she becomes friendly. It's almost funny as I can't understand why she can want to hug me sometimes, like when I've given her a gift she really likes, but it doesn't mean anything.

I suppose that's a woman thing I just don't get.

I hope you two are right. My gut tells me so, even though there is a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Giving someone a hug that doesn't mean more than thank you is not a woman thing. I dislike hugs in general. I would NEVER hug my ex. Yuck.

Mel_vin,
you wrote "For example, in email she just told me that she sees herself as Birdie from the movie Hope Floats, and I told her I didn't see that at all. She got offended saying that I was judging her and trying to figure out what she was indirectly saying at me. I was just making conversation and trying to boost her up a bit as I see Birdie as a somewhat depressed character."

Do you see what you did when you wrote back "I don't see that at all"?

She shared some personal knowledge about herself with you, and you told her she was wrong. If you had said that to me, I would have thought 1. you didn't care what I thought 2. You didn't want to hear it 3. You only wanted to hold on to your image of me and not get to know me.

It may have been better if you had asked what she relates to in Birdie, or how she sees Birdie. She may have seen Birdie as tenacious. Or maybe she feels stuck like Birdie.

And for the record, almost nothing makes me feel worse than someone trying to boost me up when I'm just trying to be heard.

hmmm, I see what you're saying. And I actual so that angle myself after she said I was judging her. But seriously, that was the last thing on my mind. I was trying to get to know her better as I didn't understand why she felt that way. I didn't want to pry too much as I know she doesn't trust me that much now, so I was actually trying say something positive, but it came out all wrong.

This is what she said her reasoning was: "I identify with her b/c she's close to her mom. Doesn't always take her advice, but loves her so much. Because she's a good mom even though she messes up a lot. Because she likes where she's from and who she is."

And I just realized I never commented on that to show that I listened. Sometimes I'm such an idiot. Ok, most of the time.

On your 3 points, 1 & 2 are definitely not true, but I worry about #3. I do like the image I have of her and I feel like it's pretty close to the truth. She has said that she feels like I don't like her and she can't be her real self around me. And it's kind of unfair because she has an inaccurate image of me right now. She has an image of who I am so that she won't get hurt by me again, and it's hard to get around that.

The real you, breaking down the false you, and accepting people for all that they are, and trust are such hard things. In many ways it's easy, but it's not.

Well, points one and two may not have been true, but if you had said that to me, that's how I would have interpreted your response.

In other words, it doesn't matter whether it's true or not, right now. What matters is how she interpretted it.

Have you heard of "reflective listening"? It's a skill. Basically, you echo back what the person just said to you. It might feel weird to a "problem solver" because you don't often any solutions or advice or even your own opinion. Yet, it allows the other person to feel heard and validated.

The reason your wife feels that you don't like her is because she doesn't feel that you validate her.

It's pretty interesting that you each feel the other has a false image of you. She feels like you don't really know who she is, and you feel she has a false image of you, or doesn't know who you are.

I think that's an angle that might be fruitful to investigate.

You're very right. I have a hard time seeing how what I say is going to be interpreted.

I've heard of reflective listening, but I haven't been consistent about it.

It's interesting that you use the word validate. She's been saying that she just wanted to feel like she could be herself around me. I'm the one who wants to be validated. Maybe it's the same thing.

She said things pretty well in an email she just sent me:
"The reason that it bothered me so much yesterday that you said you didn't see the similarity at all was because any of my friends or family would see the similarity b/c they know me and who I truly am. It made me feel like you don't know me that well. The parts of me that are what are similar to her are the things that you didn't care for and so I didn't do them as much anymore, like cuero..fishing, etc."

Her saying that breaks my heart. It's true in the impression I gave her, but not in the way I really thought and felt inside.

I'm going to try and respond reflectively.

That's a really important admission. (and one I can so relate to!) You know the solution, right? Communication! Talk, talk some more, and then talk some more. Start talking about everything, until it feels really comfortable and safe to tell each other anything about everything. It may take some getting used to, but the point of being married is being best friends. Talk! Maybe make it a game or something - 'you get 15 minutes to tell me all you know about global warming. Then I'm going to tell you all I know about it. Then we can compare notes.' Get in the habit of doing that. I promise, it works.

I don't know, Cat. Talking is great IF you are on the same page. Sometimes, talking just makes it worse. For example, if there is an unsolvable difference of opinion, talking about it too much will make the chasm bigger. My fiance and I rarely discuss polictics because we see things differently. For us, it's a once a month or less discussion. Any more, and it would start to feel like a debate and we'd just feel badly because the other person thinks we are dead wrong and is trying to change our mind.

So, I'd talk about truly common ground. Stuff where you know you two are in agreement. Anywhere else, I'd keep my mouth shut and my mind open. Do the reflective listening, which isn't talking so much as parroting.

Are you able to see the relationship through her eyes? Do you see what she sees? Or do you see something different?

My ex always thought we had an okay or happy marraige, in spite of me having asked him to go to counseling with me repeatedly, in spite of me backing his bag once as requesting he spend the night somewhere else once, in spite of me telling him I was falling out of love with him, in spite of me telling him I was worried I'd start to hate him. My ex thought it was a phase I was going through, and things would just get better. His big solution to me being miserable in the marriage was for me to stop obsessing.

Part of the reason we saw the marriage differently was I had been doing Plan A for two years. Part of it was that he didn't want to make the changes in his behavior I needed in order to be happy. But, part of it was we simply saw the world and marriage in two completely different ways. Even in the end, his view of our relationship is unreconizable from mine. Unless he could see the relationship as I saw it, we were going to have a hard time fixing it.

But don't you think that's a perfect opportunity to try out some of this 'understanding'? Not having to be right, or prove yourself, but rather opening yourself up to listening to what the other person has to say? And maybe even considering that they may have a better grasp on it than you? I have to say, if my H ever talked to me about some of the things he has deadset convictions about, and honestly stopped and said, 'wow, I never thought about it that way; you may be right,' I'd not only be flabbergasted, I'd be having my love bank overflowing for him to be opening up to MY thoughts and MY ideas for a change. I see it as a great opportunity - not a debate to be won.

Thanks to both of you for this. I feel like I'm really getting a good woman's perspective that I haven't exactly understood yet.



This makes sense, but I think my wife has so many incorrect views of what I think and believe that these things need to be addressed in a small way. Basically that it's ok that we disagree and can accept the differences.


The weird thing is, the fact that I can do this seems remarkably freeing. I am challenged to not disagree when it comes to how she's interpretted my actions and feelings in the past. I don't want to correct her, but if she sees some event in the past as a clear sign that I don't love her, then I have to disagree and explain why I did what I did.


I think I'm starting too. I hope so anyway. I'm seeing just how deep her resentment is at the very least. It's frightening and yet freeing at the same time. I guess maybe it's because I see the gap, but at the same time knowing how she honestly feels and being able to connect with that is wonderful.


That sounds familiar, although I saw it as a phase [b]we /b]were going through, not just her. I knew it took effort to fix, but not such a marraige killer thing. I honestly just could never fathom that divorce was really a possibility. I don't know why I was never scared.


Thanks for sharing this. In my case, I've definitely shown an effort to change behavior, but I'm obviously not there yet. But there is the issue of how deep her hurt is, and how much proof she'll need. As well, there is the concern that the changes required are too different from who I am, and therefore I can't be happy after the changes.

I've tried to tell her several times that I want to change regardless of whether our marriage gets restored or not. This is how I ended the last email today:

"I know that you have no interest in getting back together, but I want to work on being open and honest anyway. For one, I don't want any of this to somehow get carried over into our kids. And two, I'm hoping that you eventually won't feel like you can't be you around me any more. And three, it hurts that that judgemental side or whatever you call it is still in me, and I want to get rid of it, for myself.

I really appreciate you sharing with me about this again."

Hopefully that came out right. Either way though, I'll learn eventually.

Catperson,

If he did do something like that, would you doubt his sincerity at all?

I would think if he showed that you were generally listening and respect your viewpoint and it's merits that would be great, no? But if he just gave up on his own opinions or tried to win you over to his side indescreetly, that can be a huge turn-off.

I find that my wife doubts me a lot because it doesn't match with my past behavior. Maybe it just takes time for her to see a different person.

Exactly so. Women generally take a long time to win over. It WILL take a long time before she believes you're for real.

So are you saying that her hugging me means more then thank you? Sometimes I think that's true with her and sometimes is obligatory.

Sometimes I get the feeling that, although we do have serious problems and serious hurt, her desire for divorce has a lot to deal with not wanting to deal with things, and stubborness regarding going back on her decision. As if her changing her mind would somehow being saying she was wrong and I can go back to bad behavior.

A couple days after she declared she wanted a divorce, I asked her to reconsider and she basically replied that she didn't think it was good to waffle back and forth.

I'm just saying you can't generalize on how women or men behave.

You wrote: As if her changing her mind would somehow being saying she was wrong and I can go back to bad behavior.

A couple days after she declared she wanted a divorce, I asked her to reconsider and she basically replied that she didn't think it was good to waffle back and forth.

That may be the case. Part of the plan is to keep the door open and hopefully find a way your spouse can come back without losing face.

Hey fyi Cat, I'm in Houston too, btw.

Anyway, to update on how things went this weekend, I think pretty well. I took Friday off, so I came by the house to stay with the kids on Thursday night. We talked a bit and it was a little awkward, but not bad. She was going to use a gift card for a massage had given her for mother's day that evening. After she had it, she called me to thank me and tell me it was the best massage she ever had. Kind of surprised me with that.

I took our 2 boys to Schliterbahn on Friday while she stayed with our little girl. I think that was really need for the kids to have guy time and girl time. Maybe for the parents too.

And again when I got home, she hung around for a bit before she left. I know she was meeting a friend later and had time to kill, but she used to leave rather quickly after I'd get there. Oh, and I somehow got a flat tire that night and she offered to stay home so I could take care of things...a nice gesture.

She came back on Saturday for 'the switch' and I did what I could to hang around and ask how her night went and such.

Sunday morning, she called to let me know she wasn't going to church (so we wouldn't run into each other). She also said that she didn't want our tax rebate to go into a savings acct as she thought that I somehow would keep it to myself. I have told her several times that we needed to save the cash for legal fees, but I guess she got scared or something, or needed something to push me a way a bit. No big deal. Again I tried to keep the conversation going by asking how she was doing and specific things she told me about recently. (It kind of felt like High School all over again). And I told her specifically that I've been noticing how beautiful her eyes are lately....she really liked that. And usually avoid that because it sounds cheesy and always fear that I'm going to get the exact color wrong or something, lol.

So overall good weekend. She is going with a friend to San Antonio this weekend, so hopefully that will give her a chance to think about things. I plan to get her a CD to listen to on the way up there, and maybe another giftcard for massage...maybe for her and her friend.

I feel like things are going in the right direction. As you guys have been saying, it will take time, but this was good quality time atleast.