It is the way it works. Keeping doing the stuff you need to do. Be patient. Scared birdies don't fly over to someone who's flapping his arounds all around, no matter how good the food is.

I really need to keep that in mind. There has been alot of 'action' this weekend and I have the temptation to go in for the kill, so to speak.

In fact some of the things that have happen, I need to talk about but don't feel like I should publicly. In fact, I don't really feel like I can tell family or friends here. I feel like I've been talking too much lately, but I do need to share this with someone to make sure I'm understanding things correctly.

nugget can we have an email conversation? If it's alright with you, email me at durrdk@comcast.net.

Thanks.

Shot you over an email. Drop me a line I would be more then willing to chat with you.

I think I just kinda screwed up a little bit. The wife started worked yesterday, and I've been very supportive. We've talked everyday since thursday, and had quite a few long conversations where we talk about nothing important. Olympics, etc.

Well, she got off work, and called me, and we talked about daycare and some mutual friends of ours. Anyway, towards the end of the conversation, I said "Hey we've been talking a lot lately". I don't know why I said that. She replied, "well, yea, there's a lot changing right now."

I know that doesn't like something stupid, but I don't know if she realized we were talking so much, and may now think I'm getting too close and start backing off again.

But then again, I shouldn't feel bad for saying that. Whatever. I'm probably overreacting. But it is frustrating that I have to watch what I say so closely, and that she is so closed off that something like that could possibly push her away.

mel, your John Eldridge quote is really quite appropriate for what you just said.

Yes, but at the same time, I feel like I was being a tadbit manipulative. In essense, I was saying that the fact that we were talking alot should give you cause to reconsider your belief that we can't get along without arguing. That was in a part of my mind.

But you have no control over what she thinks and feels. You can only control how YOU feel. So if you feel confident and happy talking to her, say so. Throw away the eggshells, 'k?

hmmm, yes and no. Yes, I shouldn't let it get me down. However, I do want to get better at avoiding triggers. And I know what my intentions were, and I don't want to be that way. I guess it wasn't so much what I said as much as why I said it. But I shouldn't expect myself to do everything right all the time.

If she wants to make things bad between us, that's her call.


And completely unrelated, I wanted to put a part of this in my sig, but I don't want to take down my current sig and a part of it just doesn't do it right. So I'm just going to post it.


Looking into your eyes I know I'm right
If there's anything worth my love it's worth a fight
We only get one chance
But nothing ties our hands
You're what I want
Listen to me
Nothing I want
Is out of my reach

(I'M FREE)
HEAVEN HELPS THE MAN who fights his fear
Love's the only thing that keeps me here
You're the reason that I'm hanging on
My heart's staying where my heart belongs
(I'M FREE)

Running away will never make me free
And nothing we sign is any kind of guarantee
But I wanna hold you now
And I won't hold you down

I'm shaking the past
Making my breaks
Taking control
If that's what it takes
-Kenny Loggins - I'm Free (Heaven Helps The Man)

So I've been reading a lot of posts on here about forgivenss, and it's really sunk in for some reason. Especially the part about it being a choice, but that doesn't take away the pain.

And then I went back and read some old emails where my DW spilled out everything that I hurt her with. Reading those again, made me realize that that was only 6 weeks ago, not really a ton of time to recover from those, despite my best intentions. So that's a good reason not to get discouraged right now. It's not that my efforts aren't good, it's just that it needs more time to bake in.


And I also saw in a post where you can not forgive someone who hasn't asked for forgiveness. My wife will often say she is sorry when she sees/hears me sad/depressed after a visit with the lawyer or something like that. She says she's sorry to hurt me. I never say anything. What would I say? You can't apologize for something you're in the middle of doing or about to do.

I usually read it as not an apology, but a show of sympathy. Perhaps I should respond with something like "thanks for caring"?

It was a fun weekend. I got to the house in the afternoon and took down the trampoline (it was falling apart and dangerous) before any body got there. We she came in with the kids from daycare, everything was pretty good. One thing that surprised me was that my wife asked if I could 'put an elbow in her back'. She has a very bad back and I used to do that for all the time. This is the first time she has asked since the separation.

On Saturday, I took the kids down to Kemah boardwalk and had a blast. The wife called during to talk, basically because she was littl bored.

On Sunday, when my wife came to the house and it was my time to leave, my two little ones (eldest was with his Dad this weekend) cried and cried for me not to go. They did this the last time too, but not in front of mommy. We did our best to settle them, and I left with them being somewhat ok.

I emailed my wife on the way back to Mom's place to let her know that I know that wasn't easy for her. I wanted to say more, but I couldn't say more without guessing how she was feeling. But I was hoped she understood that I wasn't celebrating the kids making her feel guilty or anything. I didn't want to say that it was all ok, but just that I was concerned.

She email me back a little later and said that she knew it was hard for me too. Then she asked me a question about health insurance that her lawyer wanted to know. That kinda annoyed me as I felt like she was throwing up a wall, but I guess she needed to ask the question sometime.

I am tempted to write an email letting her know that I'm ok, that I feel good about myself and what I can control, and what I have to let go. I feel for her and the kids, but I don't worry about what I cannot fix. All I can do is prepare myself for when I can. But I feel like if I say that, it's going to come off as me saying I don't need her or something. Seems better to say nothing right now, especially with our anniversary coming in less then a week.

FYI, I'm changing my screen name to dkd to avoid any confusion with Melody.

Now I am confused.

So last night was really horrible. I went over to the house to take my boys out to dinner. When I got there, the wife was angry, but not at me. Without getting into details, my wife has been involved with something for a year or so now that really bothered me. No not an affair. Anyway, recently this come back to basically bite her in the butt, and she's been upset about it. She has recognized that what she did hurt me as well, but I honestly have felt like she really didn't understand how I felt, she just didn't want the guilt. Maybe I'm selfish about that, I don't know.

So anyway, she's upset about more fallout from her mistakes, and I'm listening to her. Feeling like crap because there is nothing I can do to help her, and feeling like she doesn't understand how this made me feel. I am so tired of feeling helpless.

Dinner with my boys is somewhat wasted as I can't get this off my mind and enjoy being with them. We come back to the house and are eating ice cream at the kitchen table, with my wife and daughter also hanging out there. My wife then asks my eldest if he told me what he wanted to tell me. I figure he wants a toy or something like that. He said no, and then tells me that he gets uncomfortable when I get angry. I can appreciate this, but it's covered territory that I've been working on, and I really feel like I've been setup. I understand that my son needs to say what he feels, but she could have warned me, let it go till a better time, or anything other then prompt him to say that right then and there.

I pretty much lost it then. I try and step out for a minute, and then realize that it's just time for me to go. I start saying my goodbyes and my wife asks if I'm ok and I just shake my head. Then she gives me that "you're an a**hole look" and respond by letting her have it with alot of things I really don't mean.

She calls me before I've even driven out of the neighborhood, and we pretty much talk through it. I admit that I understand why it was important, and she admits that it looked like she was setting me up. We talk some more about the original issue that she's dealing with, and she asks why I just can't forgive her and move on, and I explain that it's for the same reason that she can't forget about things I did years ago.

She told me that I never tell her that I miss the good times that we had, and I tell her that it's because she has been so insisted that the past was horrible that I didn't see that as something she would appreciate, even though I do miss the good times.

We basically end on an ok note, but I think we're both drained and frustrated.

I sent her a note that I was going to give her on Saturday (our anniverasary), primarily because it does thank her for the past 5 years, and I didn't want her to think the note was a reaction to what she had just said.

I sent another email this morning going over some business, and I ended up getting into a few things:

Last, I know over apologizing bugs you, but I feel horrible about getting upset yesterday. It was not fair to you and I broke one of the promises I had made to myself. And I do think that some of what we talked about yesterday needed to be said, but now it's mixed up and unclear because I lost it. It's very frustrating to me.

That said, I did think about what you said regarding 'rubbing it in' when you apologize for something. You're right that I'm doing that, and I've done that before. I don't always do that, but I have, and I thought about why. I guess it's because I don't feel like you understand how I felt, and I'm afraid to just come out and tell you, so I look for ways to get it out without exposing myself, so to speak. I felt insecure about myself, that I wasn't good enough for you. I wasn't funny, I wasn't edgy, I was boring, and unattractive. I felt like no matter what I did, I wasn't going to measure up and was going to be a disappointment to you. It doesn't really matter why I felt that way, I just did.

I know that those things are not true, and that I've always been good enough, the same way that you have always been good enough. It's all just lies. Both of us are really great people. We are smart, attractive, caring and thoughtful people. Just look at our kids. But now there is all this trash between us. To be honest, a part of me was very happy when this stuff came crashing down. That was one less thing between us.

You mentioned that I never told you the things that I missed about you, and the times we had. If you had a few hours, I could tell you. But you should know that last week was one of my favorites. I really liked seeing you get excited about work, and sharing some of that with me.



So I need a break. I'm not sure I'm thinking clearly anymore, and I just don't know what I have in me right now. I want to give unconditionally, but I can't give from an empty tank. I still feel like deep down she loves me, but is afraid to let it out. I suppose that doesn't even really matter.

Sounds a bit like you were set up. But, I see a little bit of silver lining in it. At least she is trying (in her own way) to help you out, by getting others to acknowledge that you have a problem with anger. Even if she was using your son to get her point accross. To me it shows she does care. If she did not she would not have brought it up. I am sure it would be a lot easier for her to jst tell herself "He is just and anger jerk and always will be. He will never change. Screw that a** hole." I am sure you know you have a ways to go with your anger. You let it get the best of you last night. She knows that anger is something that has driven the 2 of you apart and she wants you to curb that desire that you have to resort back to anger. That is why she brought it up. If she did not care, then the anger issue would stay in the dark and never be brought up.

Her asking you for forgiveness is also a good sign to me that she is trying a little bit and she is trying to make amends with you. Forgiveness can be a hard thing to give. Especially to someone that is or has been very close and important to us, like a spouse. But, forgiving is a bigger gift for ourselves then it is for the one we are forgiving. Resentment can be crippling to you and how you treat or love others. Sometime in the future you will need to forgive her.

Resentment

By BILL FERGUSON'S

When you have a resentment, a major part of you closes down. You become bitter and less able to express your love. You lose your aliveness and your joy for life. You put up walls of protection and you make your life more difficult.

Letting go of a resentment is not for the benefit of the other person. Letting go of a resentment is for you.

Remember that forgiveness is for you, not the other person. Forgiveness is a choice. Let go of your resentment and get on with your life.

i'm confused. i've read most but not all of the thread but don't recall you mentioning an anger management problem on your part

it's normal for a child not to like seeing a parent or step parent get angry. why did it bother you so much when he told you that... even if it was "set up" by the mother

and why are you beating around the bush and not saying what the core issues exist between you two. you keep saying there are things you both don't like that aren't affairs but don't elaborate more than that

after reading your last post, i just get the feeling that we are getting a one-sided story

nug - I was going to reply and try and explain myself, but it's all really just excuses. I should just let it go and move on.

charlie - I don't know how much of an anger problem I have, but I have gotten angry and yelled at my wife and kids when there were much better responses available. I've viewed this as a side issue, and something that I have worked on. I don't get upset at my kids anymore, not like that, and my children know this. And this is the first time I've gotten upset in atleast 6 weeks. Honestly, I think my son said that more because he wanted to stay home and play video games then anything else. He certainly wasn't uncomfortable with me. But either way.

I didn't like the situation because it was cleary already a bad time, and this was something that we had already dealt with months before. I guess I felt as if my wife was feeling bad about things, and this was a form of tit for tat so that I would be as guilty as her. She also had plenty of oppurtunity to tell me ahead of time that my son wanted to talk to be about that, and didn't. I would have understood better. Now, we had talked it out and I can see that wasn't her intention, but she understands how I would have seen it that way.

As far as what I'm beating around the bush at, I just don't feel like it's something I should share. I understand that that's not exactly fair, and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it all. However, I've used this forum as venting just as much as getting advice.

If by one-sided, you mean that I'm not admitting my faults, I definitely have faults. I completely accept that I have done a ton of things wrong and have worked to improve them. My wife would tell you that she knows I'm not the same person. I don't mean to make it out that she's the bad guy, because for the most part, the bad guy is me.

I just struggle to go through this, watching a marriage go down when it doesn't need to. Reading what I've read here, it's clear that are marriage has a very good chance of making it if we both believe it can.

You are become wise to all this aren't you. LOL You hit it right on the head ...it's really all just excuses. It is easier to put the blame, pressure, responsibility or guilt on others then it is just to let it go, forgive and move on.

It is not so much how big of an issue you see it being as how big of an issue it really is to others. Look at it this way. Your wife does not understand how her actions has hurt you, right! You are the same way. You are not seeing how your actions have hurt her. To each of you, you think the other is making a bigger deal out of it, than what you each think it is. She thinks what she did was innocent and you think your anger is a side issue. When in fact what she did hurt you deeply and at the same time your anger has hurt he deeply. It's one of those see things from my shoes type situations.


You allowed it to affect you and get under your skin. You let it make you angry. Bad timing or not, you let it get the best of you. I know it is not easy. I struggle just as you do with it. It is easy for me to sit here and pick at it, because I have made the same mistakes. We have got to teach ourselves to be above the anger and not let the situation or what other do or say affect us. Brush it of and move forward in a calm collect manner. Not easy by any means, but practice makes perfect.

Ok, I have some questions regarding boundaries. One of the principles I've learned is that the spouse who wants to leave the marriage should leave the house. I didn't do this for a couple reasons. One, I thought the separation wouldn't be long. Two since I worked and she didn't, watching the kids would be an issue. And three, because she had always accussed me of using my salary against her, and making her feel like the house was mine and not ours.

I realize that was probably a mistake, but can you go back on that once you've already made the wrong choice? I feel like this would just anger her and look vindictive. She does leave when it's my time with the kids, and she knows that she has to essentially buy me out if she wants to keep the house. Not my rule, but just basic finance and credit.

The other is regarding telling the kids the truth. As far as I know, the kids have not been lied to. I do not go into detail with the kids, but when they asked why I have to leave, I just say that I do, and they understand that mommy and daddy aren't getting along. At first, they wanted to believe that grandma wasn't feeling well and I needed to take care of her, but I didn't let that lie go on. At some point, they need to know that I didn't want to go, but that this was their Mom's wishes. I don't want them to think I have no blame though. However, I think they understand that I still love their mother as I certainly don't hide my feelings in front of them, and they can tell who's trying and who isn't.

It does bug me when a child asks my wife if she likes daddy and she tells them very much so. I see that as somewhat of white lie. And then my other son was upset that my wife and I had argued the other day, and my wife had assured him that we had made up. Partially true as we came to an understanding and apologized and all that, but certainly weren't all better again.

I don't know I don't want to make things falsely easy (relatively speaking) for my wife, but I don't want to be vindictive either. As well, I don't want my kids to think that any of this is their fault.


edit: And other question. My wife had talked about how she felt she had low self-esteem because of our relationship, and wasn't happy with herself as well as me. And I have to admit that I've seen that turn around lately. She is a much stronger person then she used to be. More like the woman that I married.

Is this something I can compliment her on? I want to be honest about what I see, but at the same time, will it look like evidence that she's making the right decision to leave me? I really want her to see that she can be her best self and have me at the same time. That we can have it all, but I'm not sure how to approach that.

So I think this weekend was pretty good overall. Saturday was our anniversary. I started thinking of her as soon as I woke up, so I sent her a quick email just to say 'happy anniversary', atleast in terms of good thoughts about our past. I didn't feel satisfied after that, so I called her to say pretty much the same thing. Just happy anniversary and that's it. She seems ok with that, but uncomfortable.

She replied to my email saying that she was sorry if she sounded surprised, she just wasn't sure. I replied back 'not sure?', because I really didn't know what she was talking about. She then replied that she didn't know what to say or if we would say anything at all. I thought that was a little odd since I had told her before that I was going to write her a letter and gave it to her a couple days earlier. I just replied 'I understand'.

Then she called me a couple times asking if I was ok, and I was honest in saying no, I was sad, but thankful for our past. I could tell she was feeling rather guilty. After about the 4th time she called, she started getting upset, saying that I was trying to make her feel guilty with short responses and that I wasn't thinking about how all this was making her feel. I told her I did nothing like that and that I didn't know how to turn her short responses into long conversations. She basically tried to put all her bad feelings as my fault, but I wouldn't let her. I was glad that I kept my boundary.

The result was that ended up talking for an hour, one of the best talks we had. We shared a lot of our feelings for each other, mostly what we liked. It was really great. We were even talked a bit about what we liked about each other physically. It was great to be able to tell her things I felt without pushing her away, and to hear some compliments from her. The two things that I think were best about the conversation was that we seemed to get a new comfort level of honesty with each other, and that she said she believed that I loved her.

She was going out with friends from out of town (I did the same on Friday), so I went over the house to be with the kids that night. The honesty was continuing. She looked great and I told her so. I asked if the shirt was new, and she told me no, that she had worn it once when we were dating. She told me I had a picture of her in it, and luckily, I was able to remember the pic and describe it. I told her that I remember that she worn the necklace she had when were in Mexico..and she wore that bikini. She liked that and smiled. As she was leaving we hugged like normal, but her hand lingered on my side a bit, which I took to be a good sign and nothing at all at the same time.

When she came back on Sunday morning (she stayed at her mom's), things were good again, but she was tired as she didn't sleep well again. We had hugged twice, and her hand lingered again. Again, good, but not to be taken as meaning anything.

Today is her first day back with actual teaching (students arrive), so I called her last night to wish her well with that. Hopefully she'll call tonight but to let me know how it went. But if she doesn't I'll call her.

Overall, I really feel like this weekend removed alot of the unspoken things between us. She won't change her mind about divorce so easily, but we made progress in removing some of those reasons. It will still take more time, as I think she will need to really fall in love with me again, not just be at a point she's back in the black with her love bank.

I am worried a little bit that when that time comes, she won't want to work on the marriage so much, atleast not in reading books or counselling or so much. I know some things are going to come natural, and I can tell her what I need from her, but I'm not sure how willing she will be to try. But I get ahead of myself.

Why don't you ask her to tell you about how she feels now, because you've seen how much stronger she's been, and you like seeing her that way. Let her explain how she's feeling; not about the M, but about herself. That makes everyone feel good, to get to do that. Plus, you'll learn things about her you should probably know if you want to get back together.