Cat,

I actually did tell her that I could tell she was happier and stronger person lately, and that I was glad she was working again. She was really glad I said that because she was feeling those things, and liking herself more. I had to make sure that I didn't think it was because I wasn't around much though.

She told me that she could tell I was smiling more, and she was glad to see that. She told me that my smil was one of things she used to like the most about me. I made sure she knew it wasn't because she wasn't around much.

I ask her some questions, but you're right that I could probably ask more 'feeling' questions. I mostly ask what she's been up to, how's her back doing, how's she been sleeping, etc.

dkd what is that latest with your sit? Any new developments?

Not much really. School has started for her and from my eldest, and both are loving it. I talked with her Monday and it was good. Talked with her last night and things were still going well.

I feel confused about this, but one thing she told me last night was that everyone was so happy...my heart just sank when I heard that. Not at all that I don't want them to be happy, but it made me feel like I was kicked to the curb, that things were great without me and I wasn't needed or wanted. If she had said but I miss you or the kids miss you, I wouldn't have felt bad.

I opted to try and communicate how I felt without blaming or judging by just telling her that I really really missed her. She didn't return the favor, but she said 'Really?' in an appreciative tone, acknowledging the statement. And I appreciated that.

The thing about this whole exchange is, I have often felt bad when she has said she is so excited about something. Even if it was a vacation we were going on, I'd feel bad...like I wasn't important. Again, it's not that I don't want her to be happy, but why can't it be about me? I guess I'm learning that affirmation is definitely an EN for me. Deep down, I know she cares, I just need to hear it.

Anyway, the other part of the conversation was about how she was having trouble filling out all the documents she had to fill out about our finances, for the divorce. I took care of all that, and she didn't know what to do about it. I told her I'd let her see the forms I filled out, and we joked that she she was copying my homework. So after talking to her, I emailed the form, but felt like an idiot. Why am I helping her divorce me.

She sent an email thanking me for sending it and joked about copying homework again, and I responded by telling her that I felt like an idiot, but if we thought of it more as sharing information and being honest with each other, I feel much better about it. Maybe it will come off as being difficult, but I really felt like I needed to be honest and repair that boundary, so to speak.

So in summary, I can't tell if we were in the same place we were this weekend. I hope so, but maybe she's just feeling more comfortable without me and I'm just a fool.

I think her happiness has everything to do with her going back to school and nothing to do with you being booted to the side (as you put it). I know that is how you feel. But, I do not see that that is the case. I think that she is happy, because school is a much needed out for her right now. It is something that allows her to forget out the issues going on between you and her. Not that it is an escape, but it allows her to focus on something else for a bit. You know that hole "get a life" thing we have read about. Her starting school makes her feel like she is getting a life in a way. So it is not about getting away from you, but doing something she wants to do, that is what is making her happy. Of course the same goes for the kids. There comes a lot of excitement with going back to school. Be happy for them and with them, not down on yourself or searching for the negative.

For now instead of telling her how you miss her try to tell her how proud you are of her for starting school and how great she is doing with the kids. Instead of tell her about you, talk to her about her. I promise you that will go MUCH MUCH further for you in the long wrong. She know you feel bad and left out. I promise you she knows that. But, does she know that your are proud of her and admire her strengths.

I understand your feeling of "Why is it not about me." comment. I suffer from the same symptom. Affirmation is a huge EN for me. May even be my #1. Just last night my wife was telling me about a area at work were she fells she lacks knowledge. I told her she should look into the Community College to see if the have a course in that area. She said that would be smart, but they probably did not have a class for it and if they did it would be in the day time and she could not go because of work. She has wanted to go back to College ever since our S was born 6 years ago. She may have been right and I could have just let it go, but I got excited at the thought of her being able to do something that she has wanted to do for so long. So, I got online to research it for her. I did all the leg work and got her all the needed info. I even found her enrolled a class in the evening that she will start next week. All evening she was so excited. She keep talking about it and looking at the info that I had found. I was excited for her, but I could not get out of my mind the thought of "Hey I did all the leg work. I got you enrolled. The only reason it is happening is because I did it. Where is my appreciation? Where is my acknowledgment?" I let it get to me. She left without giving me any type of thank you. I know better then to let it get to me, but like you affirmation for things that I do are important to me. I have talked to her about this before, several times in fact, but she still does not make me feel like the things I do are appreciated. I have read that to love unconditionally we should not expect (no expectations) anything in return when we do something for the ones we love. Tough rule for me to follow.

Yeah, I don't know why you are doing paperwork to help her file for the divorce either. I am guessing for the same reason I did and that is because you are a kind heart'd guy and want to help her however you can. Even if it hurts you on the end. That is how I am.

That all makes sense, and I was happy for them. I know that it was about school and not about me. It wasn't about me. And I didn't want to rain on her parade and I don't feel like I did. I actually thought that I said in a way that was a compliment, that she was somebody worth missing. And I know that I should say nothing, and I will work on saying nothing. But I can't say nothing forever. I understand that not everything is about me, but I want to feel...like what Jerry McGuire said. That sure it was great, but it wasn't quite good enough because I couldn't share it with you. Maybe that's just a movie...unrealistic.


I've told I'm proud of her several times. I told her that I can see that she's a better, happier person, more herself, and working again was the best thing for her.


Yep that's exactly it. And I often think about unconditional love too. However, we aren't suppossed to deplete ourselves, are we? We deserved to be loved too? Honestly, I do love her unconditionally, as far as feelings and in my head. But as far as doing things go, I cannot give forever and get nothing in return. I will deplete myself and fall back into better habits.

I know this is a special situation where we need to ignore LBs, ignore that ENs aren't meet, and push through that. But eventually, we need to get to a point where it's not just giver and taker, but mutual effort to not LB and meet ENs.

Lord, I need more patience and faith. And if I get some more I'll try and share it with you nug.


Well, I wasn't actually filling out the form for her, just letting her see my forms. And the way I figured, her lawyer were going to request the info anyway, so I'm just making life easier for everyone...except me of course.

She was upset with me yesterday because I said that I was an idiot for helping her divorce me. I called her an elaborated on that, and that yes it was just sharing info and it was much easier for me to get the information then it was for her. She said that she was probably just cranky and jumping to conclusions. eh.

She seems to be happy with me today. Go figure.

I totally understand what you are saying about trying to meet their needs, while we put ours on the back burner. It does ware on us. It is not easy to give and give and feel like we are getting nothing in return. I have to keep telling myself that she does not feel thew same for me as I feel for her and she is not in a giving position right now. But, I like you can only give for so long without some reciprocating acts of giving. I hope and pray that she will start reciprocating before I grow to impatient and tired of my needs not being met and move on. Sadly I am slowing heading that direction. I even wrote her an email this week about this exact same topic that we are talking about.

I keep trying to tell myself that I have nothing but time on my side, and that's true for the most part. I never have to give up, so there is no rush.

One thing my wife told me a week or so ago was that the first thing she noticed about me was my smile. It got me thinking that I probably wasn't all that fun to be around as I was so focused on us. So I tried to let things go a bit and just enjoy the time I got to spend with her and my kids. I ignored that signs that say she's moving on and started appreciated the signs that she still cares. And there really is alot of it, not so much in the ENs that I need, but in what comes naturally to her. I looked back at alot of old emails and realized that she always took my feelings into account. And that was so nice, so sweet.

But anyway, we and the kids went out to dinner on Sunday and had a great time. We talked a lot overall and had no issues. Maybe we're just friends for her, maybe there's a little more for her, but I imagine she's not evaluating it at all and just going with it. That's cool. Nothing but time.

Ok, not a whole lot to update. Had dinner with the wife and kids again this Sunday, and it was ok. I've been feeling kind of blah lately, and I think my depression is creeping back a bit. But I'm glad I can recognize it now and have a good idea of how to react to it.

I may be the only person in Houston who wants hurricane Ike to hit us. It's my weekend with the kids coming up, and I know that my wife will want to stay with us if the storm hits hard.

But I did have some news that hit me kind of hard today. My W just sent me an email saying that a friend offered to let her and the kids come down to Mexico with their family over thanksgiving. That kinda floored me. Not only would I want to go with them, but I will miss them over the holiday, and it's the one year anniverary of my Dad's passing. But I didn't say all that when she asked me if I thought it would be a problem. I told her it sounded like fun, and the only real concern was if there was some legal reason with the divorice for her not to go.

Haven't been here in a while, thought I'd give an update, for whatever it's worth. Alot of details have changed. First, my wife's honeymoon about starting work again has pretty much passed. She also went and got a 2nd job, that she can do from home at night. She has had some stressful times but has generally stayed positive.

I moved into an apartment about a week ago, and that has started to change my attitude a bit. I am starting to realize that I had changed myself a lot to accomodate my wife, and the idea of being my old self is somewhat encouraging. I also felt like I didn't want to go out of my way to help my wife any more. Essentially, I didn't want to feel like a tool anymore. If I was going to take the kids shopping for something, I didn't want to put them to bed and wait 2 hours for her to come back to the house. That's not about child support, that's baby sitting.

I told her that I was expecting to get any pictures from her anymore, since she was months behind on pics she promised me (that really made her mad). Today may have been the worst. Our eldest, who isn't mine by birth, woke up with a brusied hand this morning. So she calls me to see if I can take off work to go have it x-rayed. I normally would, since getting a substitute teacher is so difficult, but this time I didn't. She was taken a back by that, but didn't complain much since I wasn't vindictive about it.

I really have lost almost all my nerve to fit for her. She has come to realize a lot of the mistakes that she made, but really refuses to consider that fixing these problems could result in a happy marriage (along with fixing my stuff of course). I don't want to feel like a tool anymore, and I really want to just start over, preferable with her, but I'll be ok with out her. I can't make her want to change some things, and I can't go on with the way things were or the way they are now.

So anyway, I guess I'm more numb then any thing else. I don't want to fight right now. Maybe I'll find the strength to fight again one day, but not today. Right now, I just want to be whole again so I can be a good father and a loveable person again.

Well, since I've been hanging back around a bit more, thought I should probably give an update. Really, pretty much right where we were at the last update. I didn't really realize it, but things were getting better between us between October and Christmas. Unfortunately 3 big things popped up in January that has put up huge walls between us.

I can't say I've been trying, I've mostly just been trying to react honestly to how I feel. I don't have much desire to try and stop the divorce or win her back, I just want to be the person I love again. I want to be somebody I can respect regardless of what anyone else thinks.

I still find my wife attractive and fun to be around most of the time. She's a good mother and a good person. And honestly, if she wanted to try and work things out again, I would do that. But there are a few things that I would need from her that weren't there before, the same way she would need changes from me. Mostly, I'd want to know that she's not going to give up on us again...atleast not the way this happened.

I don't know exactly what's going to happen, but I'm ok with that. I'd love for us to be able to work things out, and I haven't given hope on that. But if she started seeing someone else, it would hurt, but I'd be ok with that. Even then, I'm not sure I would give up hope, but I want to live it one day at a time right now, work on myself, and enjoy life for what it is.

Ok, so the relationship with my STBXW has been civil to friendly for the past few weeks. However, I am starting to feel a little taken for granted and am not comfortable with our level of communication. I know that I have a tendency to be manipulative so I don't know what to do.

The past month I've done quite a bit for STBXW, things I didn't have to do, but she couldn't get done herself. She's been verbally appreciative. I have been (atleast I think I've been) pretty good about it, not made her feel guilty about it or hold it over her head. I'd do these things whether she appreciated it or not.

However, I'm starting to feel like the verbal appreciation is just verbal, which somewhat hurts. I know that part of it is that I just don't have things that she can do for me in return, or atleast things she's comfortable with. So it's not exactly fair. As well, I know that I do want her affection and such but that's not something she want to give, because it's either uncomfortable or possibly misleading.

I don't know what to do about this. Part of me says that I shouldn't give what she isn't able to give back in return, but I know that that often puts my kids in the middle and goes against the type of person I think I want to be. But I also know that I'm not strong enough to just put my needs aside either.

On a slightly different issue, my STBXW has gotten very busy. Since we have 3 kids, I'm active in their lives, and we have divorce issues to communicate, we have alot of need to talk. I'd prefer to talk on the phone or in person to deal with these things, and she wants to just email and text. I hate this. Mostly because it seems like it takes forever to get something decided and questions answered. For example, I've asked 2 times over the past week whether she had signed up our daughter for dance classes, and I still have no answer. This morning, I asked if I should pick up the kids from home or from the daycare and the response I got was that she thought the kids would have fun tonight. I asked again and she answered. I haven't responded back yet, and I imagine she'll ask me what's wrong if I don't.

I need to talk with her about things like taxes and getting the kids started up in church again, but I don't want to mess with it. I am tempted to just take the kids to church without talking to her about it first.

A part of me says that instead of trying to communicate so much, I should just make decisions and move on. I can stop by the house before I try the daycare to pickup the kids. I can do what I think is best for the kids without involving her. After all, she wants the divorce, and getting a sense of independence could be good for me. And maybe I'm hanging on to her to much and I won't stop missing her until I let her go.

dkd - I was in much the same boat as you. Though instead of moving out of the house on my own, I told her I was staying until the courts told me I had to go. This prompted her to move out and find her own place. When she decided to buy a townhouse (we're in Houston too) instead of rent, I really knew it was over. That convinced me, more than anything else, that there was no future for us.

And once she was gone, I went fairly dark. No official Plan B. No letter, and no intermediary. But I did insist on keeping 95% of our communication through email. I was also completely walled up to her in person and on the phone. Sometimes I let a hostile tone creep into my voice. Not threatening, but unpleasant. I wouldn't even tell her "good bye" when we spoke. I'd just hang up once whatever we needed to talk about was finished.

She actually responded oddly I thought. For all of her desire to push me away, she still seemed to try to keep me within some kind of reach. She'd do things like update my personal information for me at our kids' schools. Or try and share anecdotal information and stories about her family. I let her know if no uncertain terms that I didn't want her engaging me personally at any level. I needed as much separation from her as possible.

I think breaking away as much as I could while maintaining communication about the kids only ("Just the facts ma'am.") helped me to recover quicker than I otherwise might have. It gave me some perspective on our M and on our relationship in general. It also helped me to view her in a different light. Not seeing her face, or hearing her voice was what I needed.

She became very hostile to this. You could even say she stepped out of Withdrawal and back into Conflict, though not enough to get back to Intimacy. She implied that I was being a bad father for not being "friendly" with her.

I don't advise this as a way to get her back. I advise it as a way to get past the D and move on with your life when you're ready. And by "ready", I mean when you actively decide that you wouldn't want her back, even if she begged you.

Thanks Seabird. I really appreciate this.

I've made attempts going dark, which result in her temporarily warming up to me (like yours did), but then getting hostile (like yours did). And you're right that hearing her voice and seeing her face is a big part of what keeps me still hoping for the possiblity. I feel like I need to break away if only to build up my own confidence and feel whole again. I wish i had the option of disappearing for awhile, only to reappear and start over.

In regards to the "bad father" thing. I expect to hear that because I am not going to my oldest sons baseball practices. I asked her if she needed help to take him or watch the little ones, and she said I should come to practice if I wanted to. So I'm not going, because I don't think he needs me there and because I don't know that being there is good for anybody, and because I want to hear that she needs the help rather then she was being understanding by not asking me to stay away. However, I spent some one-on-one time with him practicing this weekend and will make as many games I can. Which is a ton more then what his biological father is going to do.

What big issue we would have to get over is that she has very deep rooted emotion walls, which makes her very defensive at times. It's often hard to get her to see that I'm not attacking her. I, on the other had have spent too much time in both the catholic church and baptist church (2nd Baptist) and therefore have tendencies towards both guilt and self-rightousness. :RollieEyes:

I don't know how long it's going to be till I don't want her back anymore, although I think that may be when she starts dating other guys, or I somehow start seeing someone else.

dkd - There's some things in your last post that I want to address. I don't know why you aren't getting a lot of responses to your thread here. You might ask the mods to move this over to EN where there's more traffic.

First off, you said this:

I'm sure you've been here long enough to know (and maybe even been told by others), that you're not going to "get her" to do or see anything. If she feels like she's being attacked, then that's on her. Stop living in her head, and stop trying to navigate around her misperceptions. Speak from the truth - your truth. You can talk about how you feel and where you're coming from. Beware the old trap of, "You make me feel like....", or "I feel like you...".

I've been to both 1st and 2nd Baptist churches. I'm not a fan of either. Megachurches with bowling alleys and restaurants don't speak to me I guess. But I was raise a Presby where we're taught that it's a sin to smile or hug your mother.

That was a joke btw. I learned that another name for us is the "Frozen Chosen".

Another thing to address is when you feel like you've reached your end. Your give up or give in point. You mentioned it might happen when you start seeing someone new. Don't let that be it. A rebound relationship shouldn't be the bookend to the M. If you want to have one, then fine. Contrary to what some people here might say, I see some benefit to them, as long as you see it for what it is, and you're honest with the rebound partner. But please don't decide you're done with the STBXW just because you've fallen into the arms of another woman.

I totally hear you on the baseball practices. I wanted to do more with my kids during my separation (my DD had just started public school), but the XW also found that throwing herself into parenthood would be therapeutic. The couple of open house nights I went to and she was there was just really, really awkward. I couldn't stand being near her. It was almost suffocating for me.

So I told her that while I'd like to be more involved in those events, I'd choose to remain away while she was there. If she thought it was really that important to our kids for me come to some of that stuff, I proposed a 50/50 split. Her response, "You can't tell me when I can come and when I can't. If you can't be there for our children just because of me, that's your problem."

And she was right. It was my problem. So I did other things. I realized that being a good father wasn't just about me being there when she said I should be there. I began to plan my own activities and events with the kids. We did things on our own. And you know what? My kids are growing with memories of events that are exclusive to me. I like that.

You have options dkd. Be creative.

Now, I will say that it's been 2 years since the separation began, and a year since the D was final. We're -finally- getting past the acrimony and hostility. We're becoming cooperative enough to work with each other outside of the framework of the decree. We backslide from time to time, and then we have to withdraw to the safety of the decree.

I got the crap hammered out of me here recently for holding her feet to the fire on some scheduling issues. I finally had to have the thread locked and I'm sure that I made a few enemies. I got a lot of good support for my choices too. Just goes to show that there are a lot of different interpretations on how things should be done.

I don't have time to address all of this since, but I wanted to start.

I do know what you mean about getting her to do something. I guess I'm still not in the grove of avoiding DJs and just saying how I feel. I try, but often fail. Although recently, I was able to get something out successfully, but I had to pause and think about it for around 10 seconds before I got it out. I thought that was going to be bad, but I think the long pause emphesized that I was really trying to get it right.

I don't think I'd ever go full Catholic or Baptist again. Too many things I didn't really like about myself when I was there.

As far as rebound relationships, I've done that enough pre-marriage to know it's to be avoided. I didn't say this clearly, but I feel like there's going to be a stage where I'm content to just be by myself, and haven't started anything new. Even though I'm not persuing a relationship with the X, I feel like I would still be open to try if felt she was genuine. If I was already dating someone else, i think the door would be closed. but I'm projecting too far out, no need to think about that now.

I have been working on doing things with my kids. We've been to the zoo so many times that I'm on a first name basis with the monkeys. I'll be coaching my other son's soccer team, and had a 'date' with my daughter around valentine's day. What burns me quite often is that when I'm at the zoo or whatever with the kids, I'm missing my wife because it would be that much more fun with her there too.

One thing I've learned though is that if I'm not healthy, not taking care of myself, I can't be a good father. And if I'm feeling like I can't be healthy being around STBXW, then it's a catch-22 at events where both parents are there. For the most part it's not a problem, but it has been before and it will be again.


I know which thread you're talking about and completely know where you're coming from.

I had a somewhat interesting weekend, I think. I spoke about this in my Church thread, but I decide to take the kids to church this weekend, and as recommended, I didn't ask the W, I just let her know and did it. It went just fine, and proof that I overthink things too much.

So fast forward to yesterday afternoon and I decided out of the blue that I wanted to call her up and see if she was interested in having a family dinner on Sunday. I didn't think about it much, but she didn't respond the way I would expect. I figured I'd get a reluctant yes or distinctive no. Instead, she asked me why, and replied 'for fun'. She then said she wanted to think about it. Ok. She calls back a couple hours later and says no. She also wanted to make sure that I wasn't hurt by her answer, but maybe some other time. I wasn't hurt, but was a little confused by how she responded.

I feel pretty good about asking. I'm not really sure why, but glad I did. I really wasn't even that bothered by the outcome, although I would have liked to have dinner of course. I feel like I could ask again and not fear her answer.

Hi dkd, I am sorry that I never fell into your thread, but I would like to get an update before I post anything. What's up?

lol catperson, you were actually one of the first people in my thread. I haven't forgotten that.

As far as an update goes, it's hard to say. I think I know where I stand, but so much is locked away in her head that I really don't know where 'we' are at. I assume the worst just to be on the safe side.

Basically, I keep trying to work on me. When it comes to her, I am trying to cut out LBs (mostly DJs) and still maintain some boundaries. It seems to be hard for me to find the middle ground. For the most part, I do ok, but as expected, when slip up puts me back to square one. Right now, I have a few weeks of doing it right, so we are on good speaking terms. She trusts me enough to tell me how she feels about some things, and appreciates my responses.

On the other side, I am trying to improve myself, by basically trying to be the person I want to be. More confident, more social, in better shape, and more in control of me, without trying to control and judge others. I think I've made some progress, but not where I want to be yet.

Overall though, I don't know that any of this will make a difference in my relationship with my wife. Sure, she will think better of me, but it is entirely possible that there is nothing I can do to bring us back together as a couple.

Fixing my own alone stuff won't be enough, as I need things to change from her side as well. Even though she is not interested in me right now, I am tempted to let her know what those are just for the sake of establishing a better boundary. I don't think she consciously thinks I'll be here no matter what, but perhaps on a subconsciously level, she has no motivation for change. I have set boundaries on a few things, and it seems like she responds to it in a way that makes our relationship better, if for friends only.

Hi dkd. I just read through most of your thread and wanted to respond. Though I am not comparing you to my husband, I think I might have a bit in common with your wife so I thought I'd post my $.02 for what that's worth.

I have to be honest. I have held on in this marriage way beyond the point of what I think is healthy--for me. I held on because I am loyal. I did not want to let him down in his hours of darkest need. I held on because of the kids. I thought that a two parent household, no matter how miserable, was better than being children of divorce. I held on because I was afraid of what was on the other side--being a single mother and a divorce woman. And I held on because I still loved him.

But I'm not sure that just loving him is enough to keep me holding on anymore. I'm tired, beaten down, beaten up (not literally), guilt-ridden, angry, resentful, sad, hopeless, depressed and so on. This is NOT good for me. I can't solve his problems for him and I see little attempt from his side to solve his own problems. I see him taking more and more of his anger and frustration with life out on me and the kids--particularly my daughter. I think that's what's really motivating me to do something; I shudder to think about the problems she might have with men someday after growing up like this.

I am tired of being his whipping post. He has some of those same attitudes that filtered through in your sentence where you said you can't "make your wife see...". Like I said, I'm not comparing you to my husband. But if your wife does feel any of the same feelings I am, it's possible she just got to this point.

I'm sorry if it feels I spoke out of turn. I just felt something for your wife's desire to move on and try things on her own.

Thanks for this. Every chance to understand my W is a plus.


As far as similiarities go, I can't really speak to most of this with full certainty, accept for the last 2 points. My W has clearly stated that she does not think a marriage where the parents don't get a long is better then being a child of divorce. That has been clearly discussed between us. As for being afraid of the other side, I don't think she has nearly as much fear of that. She had been a single mothe before, knows that her parents will always be close by to support her, and knows that I'll be around too. It doesn't mean she completely unafraid, but she has alot of reasons to be confident.


I have no doubt that I said that, or that I said it the wrong way, but I can't find and don't recall the context. I know I have made many many mistakes, and understand that she felt and still feels all those things. I understand how a lot of it feels as I've been there myself. I don't think I understand how it feels to reach the end and fall out of love though. I struggle with understanding that a lot.


Not at all. It's good for me to hear this, and surely good for you to say it. I'm sure if your saying that I should give up on her though, that since she's reached that point, I should just completely let her go.