Great! I'm glad he liked them.

I find it incredible, how they (guys) PREFER the very thing I'd HATE, and vice versa. Not just different tastes, but would actually be a bad thing to the other gender.

Like suggesting SF when you're grieving.

Seabird, thanks, now I'm hungry! But yes, that image conveys the idea perfectly.

H asked me not to "do anything big" but I still felt very guilty for not doing more, like a big display. Makes me think of that phrase, "state, don't demonstrate." Thanks for helping me think this through, and understand why it's okay to do something on a smaller scale. Maybe that's why Mother's Day and Father's Day are usually more fun that birthdays, because it's more focused on experiences (breakfast in bed, fun but small-scale FC activities) than extravagant displays. Finding that 90 degrees again.

For many of us, gift giving is simply nothing more than a matter of intent. As adults, we're capable of buying whatever we want (within our means). The idea of a big extravagant gift from a spouse can seem absurd to some of us, and can even be stressful because really, the money pretty much comes out of the common fund anyway.

One Christmas the X bought me a very expensive watch. I had mentioned in passing that "one day" I'd like to have one (particular brand), but always assumed that I'd do it myself. Instead, she goes out and buys it for me. She was also pregnant with our 2nd child at the time and I was already stressing out, wondering how hard another child was going to be on our finances. I was ungrateful and even attempted to return the gift, but the jewelry store had a no return policy. We also looked at listing it on ebay, but apparently these suckers depreciate like mad.

I made a lot of mistakes during that time. She was hurt and disappointed that she'd spent so much on the gift and I felt bad about it. But my anxiety over the purchase over-rode that and is what came through more than anything else.

After she left me, I took it off and put it in a box. Figured I'd give it to my son someday. Then my other old Timex stopped running a month ago, so I took the nice one back out and started wearing it again. It gives me no joy, and kind of acts like a reminder of the failure of my M.

I hope that one day I can enjoy it for what it is (a high precision piece of machinery), rather than what it represents; the failure of two people to understand and acknowledge each others' needs.

Seabird, thanks for sharing that story. What do you think about looking at that watch as a reminder of the love that you two once shared? Some people never get that in their whole lifetime. I think she probably bought it because she loves you very much, and wanted to see you happy, and even though she missed the target, her intent was to show you how very special you were to her.

We had a really similar experience. I bought H a Roomba two years ago for Christmas. He's a big DS person, and had said that he thought that was a great idea to try it, so I thought it would be a good surprise. He looked happy, and we had fun setting it up and watching it go. Then I came home one day, and he had returned it. He said it really didn't do that great of a job. At the time I took it kind of personal that he didn't like my gift. But now I understand bringing it back because it was too pricey.

I don't think of it that way.

The "thing" is unimportant to me. The intent is what I put value in. What I felt at the time, but didn't have the words for then, is that I don't think she put the right consideration to it. Instead of recognizing and respecting my anxiety over the imminent changes to our financial situation because of the baby, she chose to be hurt and resented me for not being excited and supportive enough. I was more worried about the money than I was excited about the baby, therefore I was a jerk in her mind. The gift aggravated my fears and concerns. Made me more of a jerk for being ungrateful for this very elaborate gift.


I don't agree with this and it goes to the point I was making earlier. I used to make the same mistake and it's why I used the clothes analogy. I used to buy her outfits from time to time. Stuff that I wanted to see her wear and that I thought would look good on her. I thought that I was being thoughtful and considerate. I would feel hurt and discouraged when she wouldn't wear them, or asked if she could exchange them for something else. I was buying her what I wanted her to wear - not necessarily what she would have liked. It was selfish of me, but I didn't see that at the time.

The deal with the watch, wasn't exactly the same, but similar. I don't think she could have cared less what kind of watch I wore. But she failed to recognize my financial anxieties (because they were inconvenient to her), and instead focuses on my lower level needs because they were easier for her to understand and accommodate. She liked big expensive gifts like jewelry from me, so it made sense for her to try and give me gifts like that in kind.

She left the marriage when she finally realized that our ENs weren't naturally aligned. In her opinion, that's how good relationships work. Two people with everything in common. The idea of having to step out of one's own frame of reference and respect and acknowledge the other person's ENs doesn't make any sense to her. Those are relationships that ought to be abandoned because they are doomed to failure. They're not compatible.

On the gift theme, then there's the spouse that's upset because you failed to read their mind to know what they really wanted. I'm sure that a lot of us have been there.

We can never assume we know what the other person wants, whether it's a birthday present or their ENs. These things need to be communicated as I've never met a mind reader.

Seabird, I hear that this is really painful, and that it's a reminder of this guessing and misguided focus. I wish I had something useful to say about reframing it in a way that would empasize how far you are form that happening again, how you are safe from that now.

Booka, I know what you mean about the mind-reading thing. Though I do think that I have a great intuition about safety things, for me gift-giving is outside of what i can mind-read about successfully LOL.

Oh, I'm fine. My biggest regret now is that I can't enjoy or take pride in this really nice "thing" that I own. If it actually hurt me, I'd have kept it boxed up and bought a cheapo digital watch to wear instead. Now I regard this one as dispassionately as if I'd bought it for $10 at a flea market. That just seems like a shame to me.


To expand on Dutch's point... It helps when the other person actually knows what they want in the first place. It's one thing for a person to complain about their spouse not meeting their needs, it's another for to not even know what those needs are in the first place. I came to realize that from reading all the different situations here.

I'll sound like a broken record but I concur on Dr. Seabird's point on the other person actually knowing what they want and experience that very thing with the XW.

On the subject of the watch, virtually all of my watches were gifts from XW and DD while I was married. The last one they got me was what they wanted me to wear and not the exact model that I had shown them previously. I should have just bought it for myself. They couldn't understand how I didn't want what they had bought. Both of their feelings were hurt but it was of their own volition. They ended up taking the watch back and getting me the one I originally wanted. I'm wearing it now. While I recall the story and can empathize with both sides, I have no negative feelings about the watch. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. Some things you just have to let go.

I hear what you're saying Seabird, I just wanted to add another viewpoint- maybe it fits, maybe it doesn't.

I could see myself doing something similar to what your W did, about buying an expensive watch as a gift, especially in my 1st M. In fact that was the last birthday gift I gave ExWH, was a really expensive watch, but he picked it out even though I was the one balking at the price.

But there were other times that I gave him what *I* would have liked to receive, instead of what he would have wanted.

It wasn't that I didn't care about what he wanted, that I was intentionally selfish or just wanting to do something flashy for my own selfish purposes. I really DID care, and I really was wanting to show love - I was just young and foolish, and didn't know about ppl receiving love different ways, etc. I hadn't read the 5 Love Languages and I hadn't read any MB stuff. So my intent was to show love - I just wasn't good at it, and I tried to do it the best way I knew how, the way I would've wanted to receive it.

Is there a chance that your wife really was trying, she just missed the mark?

While we're on the subject of watches, H had never bought me any jewelry, not even an engagement ring cus we used the rings my father gave my mom. He did spend countless hours choosing his wedding band, which I bought - the exact model he chose. (Titanium, thanks to The Abyss. )

It's been a sore point with me that he spent so much care in selecting his ring and had never bought me any jewelry. So about 3 Christmases ago he bought me a necklace with a diamond pendant. I love it. He even did an elaborate treasure hunt with different clues in different boxes around the Christmas tree - which the kids led me through in about 30 seconds flat LOL.

Then two Christmases ago he gave me another necklace... only it's almost identical to the first! I can't wear them both at the same time, yet to change from one to the other doesn't look noticeably any different... plus I'd rather get out of debt.

Bless his heart. I didn't act disappointed. I see his intent, and it was good. I waited several months and then gently told him that I didn't need jewelry for the next Christmas, I'd be happy to put that money toward getting out of debt.

Your watch incident reminds me of that O. Henry story, The Gift of the Magi. I just googled it to make sure I had the name right, and reading the ending brought tears to my eyes. Why can't all gifts-gone-awry be handled with such love and care?

Gift giving is such a strange thing when it comes to adults. Besides the fact that it means little to some, and a lot to others, when and how you give the gift are almost as important as what you give.

It's very difficult for me to receive a gift successfully because I'm picky for one, and it has to be very thoughtful for it to appear as anything more then an obligation. Lists are a great way of destroying the thoughtfulness of a gift.

Gifts are suppossed to show that the giver knows how you are, admires you, and wants you to be happy. That getting the gift wasn't as simple as going to the store to pick something up, but required some personal effort.

My wife is a great gift receiver, she loves almost anything. However, you can't just empty the bank account on her and expect her to feel loved. Getting things you know she'd like but didn't ask for is great. I've recently found out that I'm pretty good at buying clothes for her. She even says that I'm better at picking out stuff then she is. Too bad she still wants to divorce me.

This is one where I can see both sides. Yes, it can be a gesture of love. If done innocently. Early in the relationship. When you don't really know the other person all that well.

Most people's natural inclination is to give their spouse what they themselves want. We all tend to speak in our native Love Language. It takes time and experience and good intention to learn to speak your spouse's language if it is different than your own. But later, you should eventually be speaking mostly, even if haltingly, in your partner's language. Just as they should mostly speak in yours.

After the recipient has repeatedly stated that they don't enjoy expensive gifts. And during a time of financial stress. To make an expensive "grand gesture". And expect to be rewarded for it. Is selfish and almost intentionally oblivious. Bordering on insulting.

My wife used to get me expensive gifts. Because that is what she wants from me. I kept telling her over the years not to bother, because (as with Seabird) the expense bothers me more than the item pleases me. Especially since it all comes out of the same pot of funds.

This year Mrs. Hold got me NOTHING for our anniversary. No gift at all. She said she went to the mall and looked, but couldn't find anything she thought I would want that she could afford. Honestly, I don't mind. I don't want her to spend money on something I don't need or don't think is worth the cost.

Moreover, she initiated sex for our anniversary. That made this one of our best anniversaries ever! Maybe our best since the first! She didn't spend any money. And we had sex. After 15 years of my explaining how I feel and not getting what I asked for, she finally gave me what I wanted for our anniversary!

Now THAT was a gesture that I can give her credit for. If she had bought me an expensive gift, I would NOT have seen it as a loving gesture. But rather as a selfish and insulting example of her doing what is easy for her rather than what is fulfilling for me.

Maybe that reflects why our marriage has always been troubled. Because I can't give her enough credit for when she tries and fails. Another person might view her "ineptitude" as an endearing quality. Something to ponder.

Hold, when was your anniversary? And how are things going?

My stepmother, the evil witch of the west, would always buy the boys/men matching gifts, and always buy the girls matching gifts - plus one for herself. So we basically always got what she wanted. And once, 25 years ago, when my dad scraped every penny together he could afford and bought her a top of the line $1500 sewing machine (and was so proud of himself he was crying), she looked at it, smiled, and said "Oh, Jim, this is nice! It's not the one I wanted, but it's great anyway!"

Even her own son wanted to strangle her that day.

cat, that story makes me sooo sad... I just hate seeing people who are really trying to please, be shot down like that.

ears, I hope you don't mind this T/J! Thanks for hosting this discussion.

hold, that's great that your W got it this year!!!!!!! Was this recently? This sounds really positive.

re. lists destroying the "specialness", I agree. OTOH my H loves spending hours making out his list of books he wants for Christmas. And don't even try buying a book not on his list. He won't say anything, but it will never get read...

That just reminded me, maybe I haven't learned as much as I thought I had. A couple years ago I gave my H a graphic novel, by Orson Scott Card - an author of regular scifi novels, not usually graphic novels. (By graphic I mean it has pictures, like a comic book - not that it's "graphic" as in X-rated!) H likes Orson Scott Card, but he doesn't like comic books - I do. I thought this would be a good cross-over, a way that he and I could sort of "share" the interest. It sits gathering dust, along with the wallet and handkerchiefs my mom gave him.

If I want to be creative in what I give him, it can't be in the purchase of an object. Deviating from his carefully chosen list is the last thing he wants.

jayne - Yes, am sure that it was an expression of love from her as she understood it. I've also learned that there are different reasons we can be in love and show our love. Some better than others. But like HOTI said, after so many years together, it becomes incumbent upon the other person to have a greater understanding and empathy for the SO you're trying to give to.

The book story you shared is another example. I see your desire to find a compromise between your two interests so that you guys can find something to share. Especially if you guys are going through a phase where it seems like a struggle to talk about something deeper what's for dinner that night.

I think your example of O Henry's story illustrates my point perfectly. It was a wonderful example of each person giving selflessly and unconditionally. They gave each other what they truly thought the other wanted, and sacrificed their own personal treasures for that end.

I got a lot from the watch stories. It sounds like a lot about communicating and understanding, getting to know each other more and more. We had a lot of that resentment, too, like a block that painted how I saw H's actions. I would judge him instead of asking and negotiating with him. I'm still working on that.

When my brother got married last year, and we got him an LCD TV, because his TV was old and the picture fuzzy, and he wasn't going to be able to afford to replace it. We went to Walmart and got the biggest one we could afford, which was the same size as the old one he was using. He and his wife thanked us several times, because they'd been looking at LCD TVs but would have to save up first.

That's the mindset I have with recieving gifts. My H and kids buy me stuff that I love but wouldn't usually buy myself, because I value being thrifty, like a new purse, perfume, jewelry. So I do feel like I have these extra-special treats that I would have saved up for otherwise. And the ones they get me are more beautiful than the ones I would have chosen, and so I feel very special. Like Mother's Day, they got me earrings and a pendant, a beautiful deep blue and green, that I got a lot of compliments on, because it's very striking and I usually buy and wear really plain things.

When that doesn't match reality anymore, like Hold said, we really can afford to buy those things now.

For H, I usually get him things that he wants but doesn't like shopping for, like clothes, shoes, sunglasses. But he has all these out the wazoo already. A good problem to have, right? He has a beautiful watch, and I used to replace the band for him when it got worn out, but when I looked, it still looked good, and he said he doesn't wear it anymore because he uses his cell.

See, this is the standard I was holding myself to, and why I feared falling short. But then H was happy anyhow. I look forward to talking to him more about this, see what kinds of things he likes. I don't have to beat myself up for not being a mind-reader, I can ask to understand better,

Ca, about your stepmother, that's pretty common and well appreciated down here, for folks to make the same homemade gift, like chocolate fudge, for everyone. I used to make cookies, chocolate chip, oatmeal raisin, and peanut butter, and put them in tins for everyone. Thought I was being thoughtful. IThough that I what I would have liked to get LOL. I stopped when half the family got diagnosed with diabetes within a few years

Jayne, I hear you on the pendants. But I have two girls to pass down to one day, so I think for us that is better, they can both wear Mom's necklace. You could pass the two chains down to the boys one day, and they could have the jewel in the pendant set in a ring?

Like I said before I think these are good problems to have, that we are so well blessed.

Oh, I don't mean homemade gifts. I mean stuff she wanted at the stores, whether or not the recipients wanted them. Like all the guys would get a wafflemaker (plus one for her). And all the girls would get a leather purse (plus one for her). Whether any of us wanted one, or not.

Speaking of passing down, I've been talking to D17 about getting a hope chest. She kind of doesn't understand it, and I guess in today's time, when you can just go out and buy anything you want, it kind of loses its purpose. But I told her I wanted to give her something special each year that she might like for when she gets married. It'll all be stored in the hope chest until that day. What do you think?