If you haven't sent a plan B letter, then you're not in Plan B.

Draft the letter and get it to her. Tell her that if she gets flustered you won't talk to her, then she needs to re-read the letter to understand what she needs to do to talk to you again.

You must have a letter to be in Plan B.

Remember that you didn't ruin her reputation, WW is doing a fine job of that all by herself.

Have you exposed to anyone other than her family? i.e. have you exposed to OM's family, or if they work together, their boss(es)? Due to your distance, I think exposure is a very powerful tool for you - you can't monitor much yourself, which increases the secrecy of the A. If it's out in the open, the delicious secrecy is gone. Take out a billboard! Plus, you know it's effective with your WW because of her reaction.

You're not going to get apologies for a long LONG time yet, so you may as well drop this line of thinking, as it will only lead to more resentment (as if you need that) and a control game.

Be careful of statements like this, for several reasons.

First, it's not a boundary, it's an ultimatum. If SHE does or doesn't do something then XYZ will happen. That's an ultimatum, because it's all about HER. You can't control her, and trying to control her behavior through ultimatums is a waste of energy. A boundary is "I cannot stand the pain of knowing you are involved with OM. If you contact him again, I will do XYZ in order to protect myself from that pain." Boundaries are all about YOU.

Second, if you say "It is over with us" then you better be prepared to back that up. I don't see that you are. You haven't filed for D. You're still here trying to figure out how to save the M. When you make threats that you never carry through on, why on earth would she ever believe anything you say? Just like with a child, don't make threats that you're not 100% ready to carry through on.

Finally, never tell a WS ahead of time that you're going to expose. It gives the wayward time to "warn" the other parties ahead of time that "My H has really blown his top, just because I called OM about some simple thing. He's gone insane and is convinced I'm having an affair. He's hounding me and badgering me and making my life h*ll. I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to get you to believe his lies, too." If you're going to expose, just do it!


Please post a copy of your Plan B letter here. It's critical that Plan B be explained succinctly and properly, and that key elements (your love for your WW, your desire to protect yourself from further pain, a clear path "home") are included in the letter.

Who did you get to agree to be your mediator?
Sorry if I missed this, but did you do a stellar Plan A, and for how long?

Oh, one more thing... regarding exposure, which I really do think is a super tool in your arsenal that you should make the absolute MOST of... how did you expose to her siblings? Be sure when exposing not to be judgmental or to condemn WW. Just be short, sweet, and to the point:

It breaks my heart to tell you that WW is involved in an A with OM. I am committed to doing everything within my power to save my marriage and I would appreciate your support of W and me as we go through this difficult time.

That way they don't have to side with you and against WW. They get to root for both of you by rooting for the M.

Good grief.

I have a great idea for a present. She obviously needs a "MIRROR". Maybe it will help her see who she has become.

Jo

Galoot,

As most know I am very promarriage. I am also a big fan of MB and the program here.

I must say you have failed to use MB properly. YOu go to plan B but talk to W and have not sent her a plan B letter. You threaten and issue ultimatum's and tell her what you are going to do. These things don't work.

But, having said all of that. Let me ask you under what model do think a woman that does the following is worth having as a W.

1. She comes home and tells you she has been f'ing someone for the last 5 hours.

2. She doesn't see anything wrong with getting a little "nookie" on the side.

The lying is normal. Lack of remorse is often seen. But, this really a level of hostility that suggests deep anger coupled with NO RESPECT. My question to you, is WHY? You are 50 years old, your children are grown. You don't live with your W and she feels it is just fine to go get a little "nookie". Further, she will not join you where you work.

Most of this was true before the affair, and after the affair it has only gotten worse. So how is this a marriage in your mind? What is it you are trying to save??

You really need to think about all of this. Your W needs some serious help to address her issues, and the issues really are not the affair. The affair is just the symptom of some deep problems.

I am proud of you for exposing. You already know from everyone here that her response is typical. But, these other issues really need to be considered.

God Bless,

JL

bump
How ya doing, galoot?

Well, I am pleased (I think) to report that the exposure and abbreviated Plan B (actually, at this point it was little more than the silent treatment. I had sent her a letter, but it wouldn't qualify as an official plan B letter) appears to have been fruitful. WW began the other night calling my cell phone, starting at 11 pm, ceased around 1 AM, then resumed about 3:30 AM, continuing about everys half hour until I answered it at 7 AM. (I had it turned off).

She talked about how hurt she was when she learned of the exposure, and how mad she was at me, and had said those things to hurt me, but now realized how much she missed me. She's finally agreed to an NC letter to OM (even though they've spoken only once in the past month), to open phone records, and to start on Dr. Harley's plans for recovery.

So, in the end, while I thought exposure was going to do more harm than good, it appears to have succeeded. I had never heard her so angry and hateful as when she first learned of exposure, and the ensuing silence was really stressful, but now I am hearing an attitude of humility I've never heard before, either.


P.S.- We are going to start house-hunting next month.

JL, you raise a lot of good points, over which I've pondered much in the past.


Yes, you are very astute, my friend. One of the main 'lovebusters' I've complained about to her (Once I had read Dr. Harley's books on the subject) was Independent Action. She hever hestitated to do what she wanted to do, without consideration of what I thought, and then often lie about it so she wouldn't have to have a confrontation with me about it.

I had just told her the other night that, looking back, this whole A was symptomatic of the same old, same old,[WW]. She wants something, she's going to have it, regardless of what I think or feel, and lie to me to get me out of her face (figuratively speaking). Even though the A has appeared to be waning over the past 2 months (though I know it wasn't ending), she continued to lie, telling me in fact it was over).

You're right, she has issues to deal with. I've been emailing another long-time member on this board, sharing similar stories of WW who are apparently haunted in some way from childhood sexual abuse. In my WW's case, I don't know if this were the cause, and I'm not making excuses for her, but I've learned she is very narcissistic (extreme double-standards, perfectionist, fishing for compliments, etc.) She also apparently has the capability of emotional compartmentalization, which, from what I've read, also can be caused by abuse, in which the person can lock away emotions, feelings, attitudes, beliefs, etc. to cope with a situation. They develop another side to their personality. That is why she is somewhat unique compared to most other WS stories -- she has been even more loving and SF during this A. Sorta like a Dr Jekyl/Mr. Hyde.

She is starting to realize this. She also is acknowledging that deep down, she has a deep anger towards men. You'd almost think she would have wound up gay, but paradoxically, she needs male affection to validate her self-worth and self-esteem.

What's really scary is that she said one of the things that attracted OM to her, besides that he was 'so macho' (a typical bad boy), was that he had this look of sexual hunger in his eyes, a look she has not seen since she was a teen, just before her older brother raped her.

Scary.


And that look made her desire OM.


Scary.


Thanks for your insight, JL. We both know that there are some deep issues that need to be addressed, which are what will make or break our M, not the A. As you said, the A was just symptomatic, in an extreme sense.

Galoot,

See if she will agree to counseling concerning her rape, by her older brother. I never realized until I came to this site how profoundly such abuse can mess up a person. Having been here for awhile, one constantly sees the same pattern. An abused spouse acting in a manner you describe for your W. It does not excuse her A, but if these other issues don't get addressed it will be "new day same s**t" for you and her really.

God Bless,

JL

Lots of progress!

Your W has a lot of stuff to dredge through, and it's going to be a tough road for her. BUT if she has the desire and fortitude to work through all her issues, I just can't help but feel like things will turn out really great for the two of you.

Can you imagine being in her shoes, with all that history and confusion and pain, and then realizing that the one person who knows you and loves you enough to stick with you and help you fight your demons... that you turned your back on them and cut them so deeply? A tough road, indeed.

At the end of the day, I think you'll be the knight in shining armor, on the pedestal, and all that hoopla

Well, frack, another d-day.

Well, sortta.

As I noted in an earlier post, I had finally exposed WW's A to her 6 sisters. She found out July 9, upon which she went ballistic, as expected, and we didn't talk (remember I'm living out of state right now) for 4 days. Then, she calls me up, numerous times because I won't answer, and then says she's sorry, that she missed and loved me. Subseqauently, we have 2 very good weekends, and she says last week how much our relationship is now improving.

But, from where I sit, it still looked the same as when I started Plan A, me still trying to fulfill her EN's and avoid lovebuster. But, its sort of like she's now noticing it more. Like, a fog is lifting?! :RollieEyes: She also fessed up, at another time, that she had bought a tracfone, which she says she trashed (ah-huh, OK).

She also asked again why I was so adamant that she couldn't talk to OM, just as friends? What was the problem, if they weren't having sex? (At this point, I was under the belief that there was NC - I had access to her cell phone records online, and I had put a vonage line at home, so had online records of all calls, but this is before she fessed about the tracfone). I said that, one, there was still too much sexual tension between the two, and she was still addicted to him, to which she denied, and two, I hated the guy, and it galled me to know she talked to someone I hated so much. This latter point she could understand, and said she'd agree not to talk to him (hmmm, wasn't she already operating under such an agreement.

So, once again my BS alarm began to sound, which led me to go back through her cell phone records, back to the times she had previously told me the A was over. While looking at 2 days when I knew OM had spent the night with her, I noticed that she received a call from OM's phone about 7:30 pm, which is about when OM gets home from work, which I guess was to confirm their rendevous. But then, for the first time I noticed on both nights another incoming phone call (WW talks alot on the phone, having 6 sisters and other family, so there are lots of calls to review) from a number I didn't recognize, that lasted 1-2 minutes, from the same number which was from the local exchange (and we don't know hardly anybody in our phone's local exchange). In both instances, this call was about 9:30 pm, which is about our grandchild's bedtime. You guessed it - it was a payphone down by the local drugstore, and OM was no doubt calling to check that the coast was clear.

So, of course now I search her phone records for this new payphone number, and it pops up numerous times in March, early April and, most disturbingly, 4 times in May. (Keeping in mind that WW has repeatedly told me that the PA ended in April, and since then only talked on the phone as friends.) (Keep in mind also that I first gained access to her cell phone records around June 2, So, since then, she knew I could see her cell phone, so those records wouldn't be helpful thereafter. This is also when I used Vonage for our home phone.)

So, I confront her with it, and she of course denies it, saying she doesn't know who or what those calls were, but OM hadn't called and she didn't have sex with him. I then point out the other circumstantial evidence, like all her calls that evening ceased after that payphone call, and there was no call from OM the following morning before he would go to work, as he usually was in the habit of doing.

She then starts carrying on about how well things were going between us as of late (remember the lifting fog), that, that was the past and all we have is the present, that we're soulmates, that God sent me to her, yada yada.

I tell her that's nice, but that I'm tired of the deceit and lies and that I'm divorcing her. I then refuse to answer her calls for 4 days. She then leaves a message that she is moving in with me next week, after our grandson's birthday party. I call her and tell her don't bother, that it's over. She tells me she's coming anyway, to live with me indefinately until we can find a new house together. So I say fine, go ahead and come, but all I'm agreeing to now is not to call the police and charge her with trespass.

I know this is a little long, for which I apologize, and I'm writing this just to vent because I have no one else to talk to about this, and I'm not really looking for advise, but any comments would surely be welcome.

Anyway, the best I can figure is that the PA continued through May, through June and through at least early July. She likely got the tracfone in early June, after I had her cell phone records and switched the house phone.

But I am also figuring that the fog lifted several weeks ago, corresponding to about a week or two after exposure to and involvment from her 6 sisters, and coincidental to the point at which I am ready to leave her, both of which apparently gave her a jolt of reality and maybe bumped her out of her fantasy.

My WW's A is unique in several ways, which I've come to discover. Except for a short period in March, WW had no plans to leave me, and has been as passionate with me, if not more so. In fact, her increased passion has been the tip-off that something is going on, unlike most A's, where the WS's inattention is the giveaway.

After some soul-searching, I've come to understand my WW more so than in any time in the past. For most of the things I've discovered, she probably could use some therapy. She has an inherent distrust/disrespect of men, likely stemming from her bother's sexual abuse when she was young, which has also created a fear of intimacy. But, contrasting with that is her high need for affection and attention (almost narcissistic), likely stemming from her emotionally neglectful parents. I can see how she could be drawn into an affair - she can get the attention and affection from OM that she craves, but without having the emotional intimacy with that man.

I've been slowly revealing these things to her, and it seems as though a light bulb is going off in her head. I think as she sees that I am coming to understand her, that she is finally trusting me and willing to fully (and finally) open herself up to me, and growing closer to me.

Also, interestingly, is the changes that have come about in me. Oddly, her having sex with OM doesn't stress me out and throw me into anxiety attacks like before. Do I approve of it? Absolutely not. But, I realize it's her, and I don't take it as a reflection on me. I agree that it is disrespectful of me, and I'll leave her if it continues, but I'm not going to tear myself up over it anymore. It's the lies, deceit and subterfuge that really tears me up, rather than the sex. But, I've learned to respect and be comfortable with myself. If I stay with her, it's because I want her, not that I need her. I do love her, and I would miss her terribly if I had to leave. But, one thing I've learned is that the only person I can't leave is myself, so I must be true at least to me.

They say what doesn't kill us, only makes us stronger. Also, that steel is forged only after plunging into the fire.

Maybe something good will come in the end from this A. We can only hope.

Best regards.

She's lucky to have you.

Aside from that, the only comment I have is that she shouldn't 'probably' have therapy - anyone who has suffered SA should most definitely have therapy. I've seen cases where something as simple as getting touched - once - can ruin a person's whole life. What she endured has surely screwed her up majorly. I would insist on it as part of getting back together.