Please PLEASE find a new counselor. This one is less than worthless. I would bet good money that he has had at least one affair of his own. His wayward mentality is so obvious.

Call the Harleys and/or look for a counselor in your area who uses MB principles. You owe it to yourself!

Your wife is in major denial. As a man who has suffered twice under a physical affair from one wife and now an emotional one (at the very least) from his current wife, I don't really feel qualified to be handing out advice to you.

I can tell you, however, that I know how you feel, and that I know the heart-quickening feeling whenever you think of your wife with another man, and the physical self-destruction that results. You're either over-eating or not eating at all. You wonder if she's coming home, and what (or whom) she's been doing. You try to behave soewhat normally in front of her so you don't show "weakness" to her and further humiliate yourself.

I know because I've been through it and am going through it now. It sucks on so many levels. I hesistate myself to speak to anyone at all because I'm already embarassed enough as it is, and I really don't want to be embarassed further.

Hang in there man. My only piece of advice would be that at some point, you absolutely owe it to yourself to make you happy. If she's done this to you twice, you are rightfully considerate of yourself to contemplate extricating yourself from this emotionally damning relationship. That's the extent of my advice. I generally consider myself somewhat of a failure at marriage, so I wouldn't take it too seriously.

Thank you, JL...I've read many of your posts during the time I've been lurking.

Thanks as well, TryTooHard and keepitreal, for your advice.

This was our second counselor -- that's why it "cost" me so much in terms of relationship capital to get her to go. The first counselor told me much the same, "Can't you see how much your checking her email is hurting her? Can't you see that checking up on her is damaging your marriage?"

So when I wanted to go to another counselor all I heard was, "Oh, so you don't agree with the counselor we were seeing and now you want to go find one that agrees with you."

When the second counselor agreed with the first, I was sunk. I actually spent time believing the problem really is mine. In truth, I guess it is partially mine in that I'm having trouble letting things go.

As far as I know, there is no contact with either of her OM -- they parted on less than memorable circumstances after I exposed numerous attempts to rekindle their relationship. I've been watching and listening.

The kicker is I don't know how much my "filters" have been corrupted by all that has happened. Maybe I'm hyper-sensitive to nuances in conversation or email. Maybe I should be.

I know I need "help" and thought I did a great search for a good counselor. Guess they're harder to find than I thought.

Perhaps seeing one on my own is a good idea? Get some feedback and re-establish my equilibrium.

Thank you all for your advice.

Boggy--

I feel for you and understand the pain.

I have contemplated divorce...thought I was taking the "high road" by not going there.

The memories, recordings of conversations, knowing her OM shook my hand at one point, that I encouraged her to take the jobs that would eventually lead to her affairs...all haunt me.

I understand the embarassment. She does not understand the utter feeling of emasculation when meeting someone that knows my wife slept with other men -- to know that she rejected me and our marriage on all levels just to jump in bed with some other guy.

It stinks on levels I didn't even know existed.

I think this is a good place to find help...to know that others have survived.

Thanks for your support.

I think I've got this "quote" thing figured out...

From keepitreal:

Yes, I believe NO CONTACT has been established. I don't know if the "FOR LIFE" portion was part of it in her mind given she violated NO CONTACT several times following the immediate exposure. The OM eventually summarily rejected her in very harsh ways (probably at the urging of their wives). I have spoken at length with their wives and they assure me they're watching as well.

As for transparency -- No. I do keep tabs on what I can. After our second counselor rebuked me for checking up on her she changed all her passwords, put a password on her phone and tried to deny me access. I'm a bit more resourceful and have some continued visibility but not to everything. She uses a cell phone from her work and I don't have access to records. At some point, I think she was flaunting her "privacy".

There was exposure...not buckets of it...but targeted at those I thought would help. The OM's wives, selected co-workers, etc. Recently, as I wrote, I declared that I wanted a divorce. This was when she told our eldest daughter she had an affair. Of course, she'd had more than one and this was one of the things that I know she downplayed when she told our daughter. Our daughter now knows it was more than one. I have recommitted to trying to recover our marriage and in doing so, I wrote a letter to three of her friends that I knew she had spoken with about our marriage. One of those friends I'm pretty sure is having her own affair. The other two have known us and our family for quite some time and know that I'm a good person, husband and father. While they stated they didn't want to get in the middle of this (I understand that), I wanted them to hear from me that I'm committed to my marriage. I refuse to speak with another friend of hers from her childhood who I know has had multiple affairs. Of course this p1ssed my wife off to no end...I'm pretty sure she had not been up front about having two affairs and some of the other circumstances and now others knew.

As far as what she'd done to help me, it's been a mixed bag. Some things she did with earnest early on -- called me at various times to let me know what she's doing, told me her plans, only had lunch with groups of people, etc. Some of this has slacked off a bit.

I guess part of the problem is I don't know what she could do. A big problem of mine is that I feel completely shafted in all of this. I can't claim to have gained anything in all of this. I just lose. I've read many posts on here about along the same lines, "What do I really have left if I recover my marriage ... a marriage permanently tarnished?"

I do believe it could be a good marriage again. Right now, I can't see a GREAT marriage with her.

Sorry this is so long -- it's been building up for quite some time.

Thanks

krusht--

Good description of my feelings.

The fact that these things were so long ago but still hurt so much amazes me.

The second affair, so many years after the first, did hurt more. I have tried to explain that to her -- she KNEW how much damage I suffered after the first...she KNEW I was trying to be a better husband...she KNEW it would potentially destroy our family.

I did make a statement in counseling that her affairs showed no regard or consideration for me or our children. The counselor shocked me when he said bringing the children into it was "Unfair" and a "low blow".

How could they not be part of the equation? She didn't just cheat on me and risk my future, she cheated on OUR FAMILY!

Naturally, when this came up in our discussions afterward, she just echoed the counselor -- "unfair shot".

You're right, krusht, I have "settled".

That's why I'm here. I can't live my life settling for what I have now. It either needs to get better or end.

Thanks

My wife said EXACTLY the same thing. Of course at the time she was F-ing RB(Rat B@stard, my version of OM...). It really seems like there is a script ALL Wayward Wives use... Uncanny...

Now that her rectal cranial extraction is complete, she sees what I was doing as honorable. She NOW knows I was fighting for her not against her best interests.

I am once again her Knight (I never stopped being that, her perception is what changed...)

Life's a B!tch...

LiDC,

""Naturally, when this came up in our discussions afterward, she just echoed the counselor -- "unfair shot".""

This seems to say it all. She does not seem totally remorseful. She has an excuse or excuses for what she has done. She blames you, them, DC, anything else but herself.

She has not wrapped her head around the concept of what painful heartache and emotional distress she has put you through....and is still putting you through because of her lackadaisical attitude. Nor does she want to try.

Could it be the DC moral values left over from Billy C's time in office? Could it be her work environment or the profession she is in that gives her the "get over it and move on" type of attitude?

I don't know what it will take to get her to come to this realization. BUT most WWs do not want to see it and avoid it at all costs. And it may be too late now.

I agree with another poster, though. Time to totally make YOU happy. Concentrate on YOU. Sounds like all the Plan A you got and filling her love bank to over flowing is not going to get her attitude to change.

Some people put themselves waaayyyy first on the who is important list and everyone else a far second.

Stay strong my friend.

kirk

Lost,
It's obvious that your wife never understod the devastation that HER affair caused your family. If she had, she never would have had the 2nd affair. I'm afraid that if nothing changes that you will be back here in a few years talking about affair number 3.

I am fairly new to this and there are many here more qualified to offer advice than I am, but for me a 2nd affair would be a deal breaker and I can see no real repentance on her part that would prevent more affairs in the future.

I think you've seen what you can expect from your wife and now you just have to come to terms with what you're willing to accept in this relationship. If she doesn't care enough about you to do whatever it takes(including seeing another MC) to help you heal then I say maybe it's time to move on. I really connected with your post because I have been doing all of the right things since I discovered my wife's affair and it's only in the last few days that I am coming to understand that it's just as important that my needs get met as it is for hers to get met if we hope to have a marriage worth fighting for.

I guess the question is how much is it worth to you in terms of your own happiness to save your marriage if your relationship with your wife isn't better than it was pre-affair.

Runnerboy--

This has been a concern of mine -- she doesn't really GET it yet.

She claims her affairs were about "her" and not "us" but I don't think she realizes how "we" (to include our children) were and still are affected by her affairs.

My other BIG concern is that my apprehension at affair number 3 and my guarded state are, in some ways, preventing me from fully engaging with her. I'm reluctant to fully embrace our marriage and relationship because, frankly, I'm gun-shy.

For the most part she seems to be trying to do better, to do and say the right things, but how much is because she feels guilty and how much is because she knows it's how to restore our marriage.

Several years passed between her first two affairs so I know it's a possibility regardless of how good of a husband I am to her.

I hope to not find out how much a third affair will hurt, but I am ready to divorce her if it happens.

Thanks

I think you've accurately summed up her attitude: it was someone / something else that made her have her affairs.

I don't know how to make her "get it" -- trying to convey my heartache, sadness, low self-esteem, etc has done nothing but wear me out.

Frankly, going through it all again with a new counselor and listening to her dismiss my feelings and fears or say "See, he just can't get over it" again would probably drain whats left in my love bank.

It's not that she hasn't made efforts to be nice or do things for me -- she has. It's just that I feel that her account was so overdrawn that she's still trying to bring herself back to a zero balance before she can make positive deposits.

I used to search for the "something" she could do to make up for all of this. "Compensation" is a poor word for it, but I want to feel like I got something out of all of this other than repeated kicks to the head.

Thanks for your insight.

Thanks, keepitreal, JustLearning, everyone...

I've come to realize something in responding to your advice, I think I'm afraid to go back to counseling.

Let me explain...

We went to two different counselors -- both dished out "counsel" that was contrary to MB principles (as I understand them) and re-inforced my wife's sense of "victimhood" with my "spying" on her and desire to understand the "why, who, when and where" of it all.

Both counselors told me to stop checking her email and voicemail (that I was doing with her knowledge). They told me to stop worrying about her lunches with other men or friendships. All the time, my wife would sit there with a smug look on her face and afterward point out how "wrong" I've been.

Among the more painful memories of counseling was sitting there listening to her explain how I was "offending" her by my checking up on her and engaging in discussions about her day and activities.

I don't know if I can sit through that again.

As I posted to krusht, I think having to listen to her make me the bad guy again may just punch a permanent hole in my love bank.

I'm sure she'd say the same thing -- having to listen to me recount her affairs and how she cheated on our family to another counselor would drain my deposits in her love bank.

I really am not sure if we'd both survive it and I'm pretty sure (no DJ intended) she would have no desire to go back to counseling.

I can't believe this is now part of my life.

Thanks

I’ve been reading a lot of posts on here and appreciate the candor and straight-forward nature of some people.

This is probably what I need.

How do I get beyond feeling as if my wife owes me something because of her affairs?

I feel as if she got to have her affairs and got her marriage back.

I don’t get anything.

I tell myself that I get my marriage back, too. But then I realize I don’t.

It’s not my same wife. It’s now a marriage to a woman who tossed me (and our family) aside and willingly gave herself (physically and emotionally) to other men.

She’s a woman I don’t recognize. The woman I married wouldn’t have done these things. I know this statement doesn’t make sense since she is the same woman today as she was when we married and when she had sex with her other men.

She's not currently in an affair, that I know of. She's acting like a good wife and on the surface appears to be in love with me. She acts loving, she seems to care...but I was fooled before.

I’m running out of reasons to stay in this marriage.

Scares the *(&^ out of me.

How to any of you (other spouses who were cheated on) reconcile this feeling that you are owed something?

I’ve tried to figure out what she could do or give me but I can’t think of anything that would truly make me feel better.

I could ask her to do something for me in bed she never would do but for all I know she already did it for her OM and I’d just be third in line (again).

I could get something for myself that is really extravagant and spendy but that’s never been my thing and everytime I’d look at it I’d be reminded of why I got it.

I could ask her to tell me she’s sorry for what she did over and over but that would only crush her spirit and maybe drive her into another affair.

Honestly, the only thing I could see as being done for me and me alone would be to dump her like she dumped me. To kick her to the curb and show her how it feels. But that would hurt my children and that’s something I couldn’t live with.

I want something…I want to feel as if I get something out of all the pain and anguish. If this was surgery at least I could justify the pain as leaving me healthier and better off. But it’s not. It’s like I was shot for no apparent reason or for any fault of my own and have to live with it just because of someone else’s selfishness.

help

LostinDC,

Hello from a fellow DC'er. I don't have anything directly to say about your state of mind, but I want to direct you to read this post by Bob Pure. He had a lot of these same thoughts and feelings over an extended period of time. Maybe something here can help.

You're in a tough spot... but one way or another, you will get through it.

All the best,

Thank you for the reference. I posted a response to Bob over there.

I appreciate your encouragement.

Dear LostinDC

I'm sobbing as I read your posts and the responses to it.

I also was a WS 3 years ago. I had the perfect marriage before the A or so I thought. BUT it happened. Although I only had one there are many things that I learned.

1. I had to take responsibility for my actions, because I betrayed not only my husband BUT my whole family. And an A does just that. It affects not only the people in your home, but every one.

We went to the councillor at our church and he was very straight forward. When I ,as the WS, stand in front of God one day he is not going to ask me what my H did to push me to an A. He is going to ask me why I had broken a vow that I have made to Him. It is simple. An A is a sin. The Bible is very clear on this. Life is all about choices. Your wife chose to betray you and your family. From the postings it does not sound as if she has truly taken responsibility for her actions.

My major drive to correct my mistake is the fact that I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour and I repented my sins.

This web site made the world of difference, because I learned so much from it.

2. During your recovering stages did you allow yourself to feel all the emotions of hurt, pain and even hate? Did you cry your river of tears or did you suppress those feelings?

This makes a huge difference in the sense that the betrayal that you were caused has left a scar. If you just keep on putting a plaster on it, it won’t go away it won’t heal. It will only become an Abscess. You need to open it up and allow all the hurt and pain to come out. My husband went through these sessions weekly. To the point were I was sure I was going to break, but our councillor said he has to get the pain out. We had open and very honest discussions as to exactly how he feels, what emotions he is going through. AND I had to learn to listen.
Even though he was the hurting party he used phrases like He Felt ...., The A made him feel....
With the advice of the councillor he never once belittled me or resolved to name calling (Which I actually deserved)

You mentioned that you are afraid of Love Bank withdrawals on her side. She has to see your pain that she caused. You have been there before, but if you do it in a constructive manner and she respects your feelings she will take it to heart.

We practise the Harleys concept of complete honesty. Till today there are things that still trigger my darling loving H's suspicions, but I have given him full access to my phone, e-mail and internet accounts.

3. 1 month after D-day we made a choice not to continue with our marriage as it was then, but to start from scratch Brand new. We started dating and doing things together like we did when we first met. We apply all the policies of the Harleys and 3 years down the line we are happy 99,999% of the time.

We also realised that you cannot play Rugby with Soccer rules. So we turned to the creator marriage (God) who has since been the main focus in our lives.

The best is to take one day at a time and on bad days a minute at a time and on very bad days a second.

Keep the faith and never stop fighting for your marriage...

Ade

Ade--

I'm sorry if my posts saddened you -- it saddens me that I am the one writing them.

The fact that you feel so much remorse can only mean good things about your recovery.

I feel guilty because sometimes I've wished my wife would truly break down sobbing -- totally lose it and demonstrate some level of devastation akin to what I feel. I feel guilty about that because it's selfish and means I gain some measure of self-respect from her suffering. Turn-about isn't fair play, I guess.

I appreciate that you see the betrayal as being against the whole family. My wife doesn't get this or doesn't want to. She was putting us all at risk in some way or another but I'm guessing she can't stand to think of herself as risking the future of her children -- just my future.

I did express emotions during the aftermath -- too many tears for my comfort. I had no idea I could hurt that much. What I failed to do (or so I speculate) was get righteously angry and vent. I stuffed all my anger down in a belief that it would drive her away. The tears I couldn't help. I could barely get through a discussion with her or a counselor without the pain overwhelming me.

Interestingly, despite being called every name in the book by my wife and being assured by her as to how much she hated me, I never cursed at her or called her any vile names. Maybe not my nature or bent in life, but it never crossed my mind to scream at her like she screamed at me.

I'm not trying to make myself look like the good guy here. I know I have to own my part of our problems -- I have taken that tough look in the mirror. But when she yelled, I got quiet and walked away. This only angered her more and I knew it would.

Access to email / phone / etc is a tough one. When I finally got her to go to counseling, the counselor torpedoed this by telling me to stop checking up on her. I have limited access now (when I can sneak it) and have only seen pieces of email that worry me but are far from proof of any further affairs.

Thank you for the encouragement that there are people out there who do pull through this. It's a horrible thing to experience, but your demonstrated committment to your marriage must be truly something your husband is thankful for. I'm sure he truly treasures your marriage.

LostinDC

I was saddend, because i too acted once like your wife is acting now. She will come around. I would encourge her to read dr Harley's articles on Infidelity. It is an eye opener for a WS.

It is very important that you find a way to vent your anger. These emotions you are going through is a sign of depression and I suspect it is because you are keeping your anger inside.

I strongly urge you to go for councilling on your own, but go to a councillor through your church. They have a better understanding of how God created people and understand much better how to handle these situations.

I wish I could mail my councillor to you .


And then a little bit of advise - Give the other man a run for his money. It might mean that you have to crucify your own needs and pride for a while. Start flirting with your wife again. Send her SMS during the day or just phone her to hear her voice. Take her on special dates and tell her how beautiful she is. We love those type of things........
Give the OM serious competition. That is what my husband did. And I fell for it BIG TIME. We are worse that teenagers and till today have special date nights. Keep the romance flowing and never stop.......

Also you must pray for your wife and the hardest the OM. Ask the Lord to bless them, but you must be sincere. The Bible says that we must pray for our enemies (meaning the OM not your W).

I know that you can get through this. It is hard work, but trust me worth every effort.

Also it is important to be realistic. A growing marriage will have conflict and it sounds like your wife doesn't fight fair. Maybe if you could get her to follow Dr Harley's Policy of joint agreement. We also use to have those heated arguments, but since we improved our communication skills thing are going a lot better.

Most importantly remember that things will not improve overnight and you will have to develop serious perserverence.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and I know that the Lord will provide you with the necesary strength to get through this.

God Bless

Ade

Ade,

""because i too acted once like your wife is acting now. She will come around.""

But you did not have a SECOND A, correct?

A very big difference.

I truly believe there is some gene missing from a spouse's make up, if he/she commits adultery AGAIN, WITH ANOTHER OP, further down the marriage time line.

Lost,

Sounds like you are drifting toward plan D. Maybe divorce papers would be something to GET HER ATTENTION!!

No one has to sign anything or go through with the divorce, but something is needed to shake her to her actual foundation and make her think deeply (for a change) about things outside her solar system of which she is the sun.

(djya like that 2-long?)

The 180 plan A could be useful, where you could give a rats butt about what or how she feels. Because it's all about you. Working on you and making you happy. (another idea)

I did totally think about Mr. Pure and his resentment thread, when reading your last post. Hopefully he can get into the mix with you.

PROMISE HIM A PINT!! and maybe he will show.

But I do think some action must be taken, at least to stir things up.

That's all I got.

kirk

Some body say pint ? * drool *

Hey Krusht !! How the DEYVILLE you doing ??

I've been talking toi LIDC over on recovery. I should bring it here to his thread.

LIDC I asked "over there" this question :

What personal boundaries do you have in place regarding your relationship with your wife ?