I never cheated when I dated, just like I've never cheated when I was married. When I broke up with someone, EVEN when I was young, it was never to be with someone else. It was because it wasn't working out. Not because ANYONE cheated.

I guess thats where I learned my morals, which I can happily say followed me into adulthood.

Hey Jen, can I ask who wrote that quote above? It wreaks with justifications.

Jo

Jo, that was Hu in Medc's thread about "interesting read about OW's" which has been moved to Other Topics.

Justifications - you ain't seen nothing yet. In the immortal words of Al Jolson I think.

Thanks Jen.

Yeap, justifications and rationalizations abound.


HU Wrote:


Okay HU, lets say you're not defending affairs. But I wonder why you're expending so much energy defending OPs?

Why is THAT so important to you?

Jo

By "caught up" HU, sounds like you're implying "it just happened" or "it was out of your control".

You made a choice to cheat HU. It was a decision, a conscious decision. You made a choice to act on your emotions. Lets be clear on that.

Jo

For the record hu, nobody gets caught up in anything that they don't actively choose to get caught up in.

You had numerous warning signs and red flags to warn you of the impending danger to your M, but refused to allow them to get in the way of your real intent. This is "justification" speak. They don't hold water.

You moved or dropped any and all boundaries to persue your A and selfishly and ncarcissitly forged ahead in spite of all the warning signs. You are not any different or special than any other WS.

If you were a fishing boat captain and saw the storm clouds on the horizon, would you not pull anchor and head for safe harbor?
Instead you rebelled and put your ship and crew(your family) in extreme peril for purely selfish reasons.

No one accidently falls into an A!!!!!

All Blessings,
Jerry

shinethrough:

Never claimed I just "fell" into the A. Oh I saw the warning signs etc... I knew very well what I was entering into. No excuses.

I don't justify any I did, I did try to for awhile with the text book reasons against my wife. I even successfully snowball a MC, I will admit that was the "fog" doing that.

For the others that wonder why I am "defending" the OP. I do it for a couple of reasons.

1) I find the fascination with blaming the OP a waste of time. They are not the root cause of the A.

2) I will admit I will find topics that I find interesting and will explore (sure argue) alternatives the dogma that is accepted. In the case of the blame placed on OP I find it a discussion worth having. Because I am rereading HNHN and guess what I cannot find ANYWHERE in the book blame assigned to the OP. I find words on blaming the WS and also the BS since those are the people that have the marriage.

Seems to me your time here would be better spent working on recovery of your marriage instead of taking it upon yourself to be the WHITE KNIGHT of OPs.

Oh I am already doing that. Thanks for the concern though.

A waste of time for who? YOU? It would be dysfunctional to NOT blame a person who knifed you in the back. The OP knifes the BS in the back when he/she crawls into bed with a married person. It takes 2 people to have an affair, bucko. Of course such a person should be blamed for such a heinous act.

I am concerned that you say this kind of thoughtless, cruel nonsense to your wife. Do you? Do you try and gaslight your wife into believing she should not blame a person who KNIFED her in the back? Why would you inflict such cruelty on your wife when she is trying to recover from your adultery?

To continue this topic go over to the "other topics" thread. I posted a response to you there.

Thanks

My suggestion would be to focus on your WIFE'S recovery rather than worrying about whether or not some HO is blamed for her sleazy, filthy actions with a married man.

Your wife, the VICTIM HERE, is the one who needs your protection here, not the OW. The OW deserves no protection.

LOL, my sentiments exactly.

Hu,

I'm glad you found a new perspective on how the OP continually attacked the marriage for 3.5 years along with you. She did that to herself, her own family and yours.

I understand choosing to stay for the child...that's the only shaft of reality that got through to me, too...the reality of them as the innocents they truly were...and SB is correct, that doesn't cut it in recovery. Means you reached out to one sliver of reality and held on. Kudos for that.

What's ahead for you...massive BW rage coming up between now and the next few months. I think your stand on the OP is going to change...and I'm glad you're taking in others' opinions, because there's a honeymoon period to recovery...when the BS is grateful they didn't lose you, their marriage, their intact home for their children. Then it fades even as you both begin new dances, meeting ENs, eliminating LBs...because the thought becomes...why the heck didn't you do this in the first place and skip the part where you tore out her heart?

It's a natural progression...the super anger comes BECAUSE you are doing things well in recovery...safe enough now to be furious with you, with OW and with what BW cannot change, ever. How you handle yourself during her anger is another landmark of recovery.

See, for 3.5 years you were the enemy of your own marriage. In recovery, we become team marriage again...so if you don't hold OP accountable for their part, then you're not on the team with your BW to defend your marriage. Might hit the fear (realistic fear) that since you don't hold OP accountable for her choices, then you won't in the future, either...meaning, you won't put into place healthy marital boundaries which protect your weaknesses...ESPECIALLY since you said you will base your choices (to attack or honor your marriage) based on your contentment level.

There is going to be times of deep conflict (which you can learn to connect with each other through instead of avoid), extreme pain and anger...not what we normally feel content with...even as there will be times of deep connectedness, peace, joy and gratitude for what you have in that moment. What you do, check your actions, your perspective, perception, where your thoughts dwell will be crucial to the long-term recovery of your marriage.

I see your biggest hurdle will be your BW having an A five years from now. See, I don't believe you're through withdrawal yet...from 3.5 years of feelings, distraction and diversions...I think you've got another six months to go, at least...even though the A played itself out...beware you don't supplant recovery for another fix, a subtle distraction of its own.

You seem to know for yourself all the factors in you choosing to have an A...my question to you, which I believe could help many BS and FWS here on MB, would be what were the factors which kept you in the A for 3.5 years? I believe they will be very different from what led up to your choice to begin it. And the reasons to end it, too.

Appreciate you being here and sharing your POV. You opinion matters...may be provocative...adds to clarity about A's...and I do believe we mask a lot of our anger for our WS by focusing on the OP...I think it's part of the healing process, really...a safe place to direct our rage and pain until we can do so respectfully to our beloved partner...when he's a real partner again, on our team.

You can hear what hurts her the most if your BW shares...where she is comparing herself, tearing herself up again and again, and hear her wishfulness, what her perceptions were, her dreams for your marriage which are now wrecked. When you hear where it hurts, you can do your half of healing...you can change where you make your choices, even...from your feelings, or your beliefs. Very powerful in recovery for life.

LA

LovingAnyway:

Thank you for the good response!

1) You make a several very good point as to why to be angry with the OP. The best one being doing it for team marriage. That is a good non-emotional reason I can agree with.

2) I have spent a LOT of time thinking why I entered the affair and then why I stayed. You are right they are different reasons.

Started:
a) No SF at home
b) No real affection at home.
c) curiosity since I was chased.
d) No real communication at home

Stayed in it:
a) Affection
b) SF
c) Ego (I guess admiration)

Ended:
a) Her Husband found out.
b) It was getting to a point of a decision anyway. Does it end or do we leave our marriages. Frankly the right decision was made. Children so make a difference it is not funny.

4) Withdrawals oh I agree with you, it is a struggle everyday. Some days no an issue other days all consuming. When it becomes all consuming I call my wife and talk to her. Which has helped alot and gotten me to focus on her more then talking to someone else.


General:
I like the idea that there really never is a "recovery" there is just one that is a work in progress. That has been the impression I have gotten.

I venture to guess most of us would have hopefully matured into adults (grew-up) realizing what worked in middle school dating isn't the same as a "MARRIAGE". You know, commitment, vows, children, mature love, etc.

And just for the record, I never cheated in any of my relationships, in adolescence or adulthood. Its interesting and odd you think thats the norm.

:eek:

Jo

Tell you what the few people that have posted there that never did cheat in any relationship are the first people I have ever heard say that. The experiences I have a way different with friends, family etc...

Hu,
I am 44 yrs. old and have absolutely NEVER cheated on any person in my life. From the beginning of dating in high school, through college and then into marriage. It's simply something I would never consider married or not.

First off, it doesn't matter if every person in the world "cheated" while dating, adultery is still immoral, cruel, and wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. Pointing to the bad behavior of others does not justify your behavior. The everybody-does-it rationalization is not going to get you very far.

I am very alarmed that you may be using some of these rationalizations with your wife, which will naturally impede her recovery. It is very unusual to see a wayward THIS fogged out 6 full months past his alleged last contact with his adultery partner.

I have my doubts about the veracity of your no contact. Do you live NEAR the OW or work together? Go to the same church together?

When will your wife be here? Did you ask her to come here like I asked?

Hu:

Glad you here.

Don't debate the following:

1. That OP are not at fault.
2. That ALL of us could have done it.
3. You WERE a good Dad.

Why?

Cause your gonna get killed with it around here and it deflects you from WHAT you should be doing.

3.5 Years? WOW! That's 1 year less than my affair.

Why didn't you end it sooner? Because it was "decision time" You made a decision EVERY DAY. So DID I.

EVERY DAY you CHOOSE to cheat. Sure. I could have ended MY A alot earlier too. But I didn't. I LIKED IT. Just like YOU did. Because if you DIDN'T, you would have ended it sooner.

You liked the adreneline Rush.
You liked the danger.
You liked the fact that SOMEBODY was meeting your EN's (Which you didn't know about before you found Dr. Harley, right?)
You got to spend SOME time with your child.
You underwear got washed every week, anyway, so who was getting hurt?

Now, what you will learn:

1. That OP are not at fault. Yes they are. They made the same bad choice as you for the same period of time. One day, you will look upon your OW as what she is. A slut. Mine was. Guess what? Admitting THAT means that you have finally realized what YOU were, and the pain and suffering you caused your BS, your child, your OW, her BH, and your extended friends, and family. What a tremendous loss to my family that 4.5 years was. How compromised I was as a slut. I am NOT there anymore. You can get there too.

2. That ALL of us could have done it. Yes, ALL of us COULD have done it. But arguing about it doesn't really win you many friends around here. Dr H. himself says that we ALL could be sucked into a A if the EN's were NOT being met in the M. However, the difference is that many folks WOULD NOT have a A, especially most of the BS's around here. So, argueing the point does you NO GOOD. Short-term or Long-term. ANd it just doesn't matter.

3. You WERE a good Dad. Yep. You THINK so? I thought I was too. Then all that time I was spending with OW, that I started spending with my then 12YODS? Improved me as a Dad and father, BIGTIME. I stopped being the DAD part-time and started to being the DAD Full-Time. You can't see this yet. But you will. IF you really DO embrace the Harley principles, YOU will see all the things that you were shortchanging in your realtionship with your child. This will take time. Your child is wary, but they will KNOW. That you are THERE for them. They know that you were NOT in the past.

Hu? You can become a valuable member around here. You appear able to write ok and verbalize what you are feeling. And you seem to be learning. And THAT makes all the difference.

What is a recovered Marriage? After Infidelity?

When your BS can say that they didn't think about your A today. It will be three years from our Dday in Aug. Are we in recovery? Yes. Are we recovered? I would LOVE to think so. You have to ask Flamingo if she thought about the A today to get your answer.

LG

BTW, Read Silentlucidity's most recent thread. She THOUGHT her WH had returned to work on the M. But he just came back to save on rent. He said the right things at first, and then.....

Well, you can read it. And then you can figure out where you really stand.

LG

Rationalizations? I am using that "rationalization" on my wife it is just for the discussion here. Can have general discussion here without it being personal right? I can see why people cheat based on previous life experiences.

Oh believe me the NC is in place. Withdrawals still going on but no contact. Don't live near her, no longer work together, I don't go to church.

My wife maybe here I don't know. I told her about the site, but I told her not to tell me her userid.