So I thought it was time for a new thread and moved my posts here.

I've decided that I'm going to work on loving my STBXW throughout our divorce. Actually I've been trying to do this up to this point, but I've stumbled terribly at many occasions, and said/did a few things that were not my best. For this I owe her some amends.

Here's how I see my current situation. For most if not all of our M, I was a scared boy when it came to dealing with my W. When she threatened to leave, or I felt her moving away from me, I would become quite 'clingy' and do near anything she asked of me, or even invent some things to do to try and keep her around.

I've had a hand in teaching her how to manipulate me, and she's learned it well.

Now, finally, I've found my inner strength, and I'm quite at peace with her and her family hating my guts right now and I've learned to say 'NO' to her selfish demands, and attempts at manipulation.

I still love her, and believe in my heart that she is a good woman. I also believe for us to have a close, connected relationship, would require work on her part personally, and with both of us together. That's a topic for another time, maybe in the future.

Right now I see this process as a great opportunity to practice my boundary and clear direct communication skills. My biggest failure in terms of my M was not communicating clearly with W. I would often avoid 'difficult' conversations, and hide my feelings from her. Well, I guess now it's easier, since I've got nothing to lose, but then again, if I don't change, the old dance remains. I'm tired of that dance.

She's experiencing me very differently so far, and I think she attributes it to the D process, when in reality, it's all because of the work I've continued to do that's brought so much clarity for me. She's angry as hell with me, and right now, I see that as a normal part of this change process.

I'm also learning to deal with my emotions and anger in better more healthy ways, and wow that's been tough on some occasions, but I'm getting better each day.

I'm going to keep posting as I work more and more on becoming a real man, strong, tough, compassionate and loving. I've got a great start in many ways, and still more I'm enjoying working on.

Thank you to all who continue to support me...

- TTM

Bravo! I like you current attitudes. I too had the exact same failures that you did in marriage. Join the club and I don't mean that sarcastically. With what we know now and what we can learn, we can be better partners. That should be everyone's goal in either the recovery or a marriage of the result of a divorce. If we don't learn then we'll be condemned to keep making the same mistakes over and over again and expecting a different result, re Einsteins comments on insanity.

I am proud of you.

I am convicted by your post. I, at the moment am going through a divorce. Marriage of 17+ years, mother of six boys. Communication is difficutl. I applaud your effort,patience and preserverance. My prayers to you.

Grace,

I'm sorry for what you are going through. I've felt more powerful emotions in the past months than maybe in my entire life.

Hang in there. Take care of yourself. Try you best not to be reactive. I've found I've had to take lots of 'time outs' before taking any action. If there's lawyers involved, don't be afraid to remind them who they work for. At one point I had to tell my attorney to stop what he was doing, because it's not what I wanted. He was pushing me toward a fight, and that's not what I wanted or acceptable with me.

I sent my STBXW a copy of 'getting the love you want' by Harville Hendricks. I read it a while back, and it's an awesome book. Changed the way I view marriage and relationships in general.

I just drop shipped it from amazon.com with a note that said 'Best wishes'.

To my surprise she called me yesterday when she got it, asking me why I sent it. I replied with a simple 'that book changed the way I viewed our marriage, and relationships in general, thought you might enjoy it.

She seemed a bit taken aback by my casual attitude.

It's hard to get to a place where you can see and accept another persons point of view, but I think I've gotten to that place with STBXW. She believes a D is the only way for her to find happiness love and fulfillment in her life. That somehow being 'with' me gets in the way of that goal. I can see and understand that point of view, and I can even validate it. Of course I disagree with the conclusion that a D brings those things, but given our popular culture's teaching, I sure can understand why people choose that.

I do celebrate her desire for those things, it's what I want too. I've come to call it 'The Biological Dream' it's what I believe all humans truly want.

She's going to be here tonight to pick up DS, and I'm going to invite her to stay for dinner. I don't expect she will, but I'm going to offer just the same.

Keeping you all posted.

- TTM

Well I didn't end up inviting her for dinner. When she came to pick up DS, she gave me the book back saying 'I'm not going to end up reading this'. To which I replied 'ok, cool' and took it from her.

I find it fascinating that she gave the book back to me. This is clearly looking for some sign from me. It would have been much easier to throw it in the trash, or leave it at her house, but she remembered to bring it to work with her, and then to my front door. She was making a point to give it back to me. Even more interesting is the fact that the covers are all bent back. It looks to have been read already, or at least skimmed.

She's complicated for sure. I think the only reason she gave it back was to see what my reaction would be. I think I was mostly calm and cool.

I also handed her a list of options I came up with in regards to our house equity issues. I wrote out three options, and my perceived pro's and cons to each. Kicked the ball back into her court, let's see what happens next.

- TTM

Yep, I think you're on the right track. I've been reading Wild at Heart and Boundaries and both are basically convicting of bending over backwards to accomodate. I'm doing my best to not try to fix problems that I didn't create between me and the STBXW (hopefully not). I've seen a change in her over the past week as I think reality is starting to set in more and she's realizing that I'm not going to be there for her if she's not going to be there for me. And I've been learning how to tell her how I feel without blaming her for how I feel. I think she's apologized more in the past week or two then she has in the past year or two.

So if the D goes through, I won't hold myself responsible for what I didn't do. I'll do what I can for my kids, but I'll make sure that I'll stand on my own and let the wife deal with the problems she's creating for herself.

You are already a man, Tall, because you are stronger than your ego and a stronger, better person for your experience. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

If STBXW is angry it MAY partially be because you are now acting in a way that she wishes you always did - at least I've read that can be the case "why weren't you always like this?!" kind of thing. I have found one of the most difficult, yet personally satisfying things for me has been to agree with criticism she has leveled at my past behavior. I can agree because it is no longer the person I am. When STBXW says, "You were never around - I was a single parent for years!" I can look her in the eye and say, "I know and I'm sorry. That must have been very difficult" and move on, even though there are reasons that I acted the way I did, including her withdrawal of support from me. Those factors are not as important now, but my new attitude towards life is and that attitude will stay with me and make me a happier, better person regardless of the outcome of my marriage.

-JC

I have to say I love the approach of "Loving your spouse through a divorce...". This was very difficult for me and I do not feel I did a good job of it as our divorce is final and I still have a difficult time with my H. I have not had a chance to read any of the books in the MB bookstore and was hoping I could get some recommendations from all of you. I still love my H very much and according to our beliefs even though we are divorced in the eyes of the courts we are not in the eyes of the church we belong too. I would like to bring my marriage back together but our communication skills are shot. He continues to have a relationship with the OW and possibly others. However, we have 3 boys and it has been difficult on them even more then myself. There is a lot to all of this as there is with anyones situation but I would like to have a better attitude myself and not be so angry with him. I too was passive in order to keep peace in our marriage and now I am fighting back because of the anger. I seek counseling and it helps but I feel like there is more to do. I just love to hear recommendations on what I can do to have a better attitude and possible get my marriage back.

Thnx.

Abenat4,

I'm sorry for the pain and hurt you must be feeling, I understand it can be very tough sometimes.

While I don't believe I know what's right for anyone, let me share with you some thoughts that have helped me.

I really worked hard to get it into my heart that my journey on this road called life is not the same road my STBXW is on. Her journey is hers, and it may not have me in the picture. I had to get comfortable with the idea of being alone, and a strong individual. She's going to do whatever she's going to do. My job is to be loving and uphold my boundaries (take good care of myself) no matter what she does. This sounds easy, but in practice, it's very difficult sometimes.

Your anger with him is understandable. I have felt something that I would call rage toward my STBXW at times. I've learned to get a whiffle bat, and pound the heck out of my bed, to release it. I scream, I yell at her when I'm alone in my room, and beat the bed until I feel better. I find it usually doesn't take long to release the emotional energy that comes with my anger.

I've also found that the more I 'push' (bring up our relationship or marriage) the worse our communication seems to get. I've had to learn to drop this topic all together, and just talk business and life stuff. Light and friendly.

I, like you said, was very passive in my M and when I stepped out of the 'slave' position, I found myself full of resentments that I needed to work though on my own. I have to forgive myself for not speaking up, and then forgive my spouse. She was/is doing the very best she knows how at all times. Admittedly it may not be very good, but I haven't been very good at times either.

When I focus on her failures, I get more angry, when I keep the focus on me, and my work, I feel better.

I would also recommend you google Al Turtle. He's got a fantastic website with loads of fantastic information that can help you re-frame your thinking. It helped me a lot.

For now it may be less helpful to be focusing on getting the marriage 'back' and more beneficial to you to spend your energy working on yourself, and your communication skills.

Working on becoming a better partner will likely give you the best chance of starting a 'new' relationship with your ex.

Hope this helps,

- TTM

This does help a great deal. I find that I try to work on myself and that is the goal my counselor and I have is to better myself and not worry about the EH. When I have the boys and we are doing things it becomes easy to work on those issues because the EH is not around. It's only times when the boys are with him this becomes difficult. I have been at home with them from the time our first was born and at this point I am not able to truly go out and work because of medical needs of our youngest and I do not want to burden my parents with watching three little one's for more then a couple of hours.

I find myself even more frustrated when I see my sister, a close friend and others like yourself that seem to handle these situations better then I am. I have not been happy about this and I do continue to point out to my EH things about our relationship and that there is no amount of money in this world that will ever repay the boys and I what he truly owes us. I do so much appreciate your comments and I appreciate those who are supportive. I love my counselor because he give me hope that if my feelings are as strong as they seem and deep then it may just take time before his return. So, in the meantime I must work on myself. I feel like a wayward child though not knowing exactly where to go from here and looking for direction. I want to go to school and get my degree because it was put on the back burning to get the EH through his degree. I have started a buisness but I am affraid it will fail just like other things in my life has especially my marriage. I am trying to improve as a parent because the boys as I said are suffering just as much and I do not want them to fall into the same addiction as their father with pornography, which has a great part to do with the failure of our marriage.

I know I have said thank you already but I do thank you. I appreciate hearing uplifting things that give hope. Instead of people saying move on, find someone new, you deserve better, there is no hope, and so on. I liked what I read about Dr. Harely's ideas that a marriage can be saved in any circumstance and I believe that with all my heart. I am willing to forgive so much and pray that some how his heart will be soften to be open to the things that it sounds like you have found in your own life.

Thank you,
abenat4

abenat4,

The aforementioned Harville Hendricks book is a must-read. I suggest you become familiar with the concept of differentiation. And I'll bring up a point that I raise often with divorced mothers, it's not enough to put 100% of your focus on your children and to live vicariously through them. One day they will leave the nest and you'll have nothing but yourself. You need you own life in addition to your children. You need to become a whole and complete person on your own with no void left to be filled by another. I'm not arguing that your children aren't important to your life, I'm arguing that you need your own life as well. Part of all of this is letting go, forgiving yourself (it's harder than you think!), and then arriving at some point of forgiveness for the XH. You cannot do these things overnight. You have to take baby-steps to start with and then make every step after that taller and wider so that you can grow as a person.

I look at myself 20-months post-divorce and I could be happier on my own.

booka,

Thank you, and I agree that I cannot live through my children but I need to live for them and provide for them. I'm not sure though what I need to forgive of myself for. I know that I have much that I need to work on but forgiving myself for the failure of my marriage is another thing. I feel that I fought for my marriage and for our family while he allowed OW and others to convince him that a divorce was in the best interest of all of us. I had planned on going to school after he got his buisness up and running. The school I was going to attend was/is the school the OW is the director over the program for the degree I wanted to go into. So, now I have to move on to find another place to do the program. However, the needs of our youngest will be met before I move on. He has 1 1/2 years to finish the program he is in now before he moves on to another one and with all the moves and changes that have been happening in their lives I would like them to get a little break before we move to another town. Even though I would like it to happen sooner then later, because living with my parents is starting to get overwhelming for us, it may take a little time before we get a place of our own. Taking baby steps is the best I can do right now anyway because I am not ready to move on to dating again.

I just got off the phone with the boys a little while ago and I have become frustrated again because the XH took them over to the OW house again even against the advice and counsel of their counselor. They do not like her and have voiced that to the counselor and they relate OW to the break up of their family. The boys and I saw nothing wrong with our family until she butt in where she did not belong. Letting go and forgiving XH, because I do not believe I need to forgive myself for the divorce, is harder when he continues to use the children to hurt me. I will get the books that have been recommended and I will continue to work on myself and trying to make my buisness grow because it will keep me busy while the boys are gone and I am working on trying to sign up for classes that I can do online. It's easier said then done sometimes especially when I get so upset that the boys' feelings are not taken into consideration while they are with their dad.

Thanks,
abenat4

Suggestions for things to forgive yourself:

1. For ever choosing them in the first place.
2. For staying longer in the relationship than you should have.
3. For not saying "No" when you should have.
4. For depending on your spouse to determine you self-worth and to provide your sole source of validation.
5. For the manipulative things that you did that made matters worse.
6. For not applying tough-love where it was required.
7. For not setting boundaries.
8. For not negotiating.
9. For not being open and honest about your feelings.
10. For general communications problems that you either caused, exacerbated, or did not solve.

Note the above list is a general list and not all may apply directly to you, although I suspect that they all could apply to anyone. All certainly apply to me.

As a betrayed spouse, my first tendency was to lay all blame at the XW's door. Truth be told we all share in the blame for our failded marriages. We all have something to forgive in ourselves. That forgiveness can come easily or be easily facilitated. Forgiving the other party will take time.

I Love your list Dutch. Nice. Thanks for sharing.

I'm guilty of all those things as well, and getting much closer to forgiveness of myself, and in forgiving myself I'm finding it easier to forgive my STBXW.

This is a tough process, but it does get easier, especially if you actively work to grow and learn new things though the process.

- TTM

TTM,

You have expressed my Golden Point Of Divorce. And that point is to become a better potential partner by learning from our mistak4es and increasing our knowledge base. I don't want a repeat of the previous result. I don't want to fall under Einstein's definition of insanity. I aspire to go onwards and upwards and to be the best I can be, not only for myself.

Note that I did not feel this way out of the box and did my share of wallowing over the cold and lonely winter of 2007. In a strange twist of fate, my emotions more or less followed the seasons starting with the fall of 2006. I hadn't thought that till now.

I like points 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10.

The others... Not so much.

I feel partially validated!

heheheh...

I will just say that there are things about the list that I agree with and there are things that I may question. I know there is always room for improvement and this is a great list to go off of. There is saying that I'm sure we have all heard that "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again." This is like riding a horse. If you fall off you get back up, get on the horse and try again. I had a friend tell me that sometimes though you have to get a different horse because that horse you are riding is hurt. Some people would even put the horse down. However, if the injury was not bad enough to put the horse down and you truly cared for that horse then you would take the time to attend to the horses injuries, working hard to help those injuries heal, having the patience to allow them to heal and then when the time comes to get back up on the horse you try again. Still be cautious enough not to reinjure the horse and allowing them to strengthen the area of injury till it can withstand further pressure. This in a way can be applied to a marriage. Even when there is infidelity as there was in mine. It takes time for wounds to heal, but seeking a divorce in our situation was not in the best interest of the children or for the two of us because it just made matters worse. Now my goal is to learn how to control my feelings in order to not allow the XH to control them by his actions. I recognize he is doing things to hurt me and is using the children to do so. That is what is more frustrating to me then the emotional and mental abuse he started when we separated because it hurts the children and I hurt when they do and he is hurting them emotionally by the continual contact he exposes them too with the OW.

Now I have one more question for you, booka, as you suggested getting the book that TTM mentioned, I looked it up on amazon and read some reviews. There was one that caught my attention. This person liked the book but recommended another on that they felt was better called 'Passionate Marriage:Keeping Love and Intimacy Alive in Committed Relationships' by David Schnarch. Have you read this book? Just wondering if anyone has and if they would still recommend 'Getting the Love That You Want' more?

If I do need to forgive myself then I am open to it, but I know that the feelings I have had toward the XH are not ones that I like because I still have a very deep love for him that I cannot explain and I do not want to be angry with him all the time. I am more then willing to forgive the unfaithfulness but the divorce is the thing I have the problem with the most and the fact that he continues to see the OW. These are the things I need to work on and it is EXTREMELY difficult for me.

I can truly appreciate your feelings on your marriage, you sound like a very loving and forgiving person.

Let me share some of my thoughts with you. As I read your analogy about the horse, I can't help but think you're viewing your H as 'broken' that just needs your loving to 'get better' and come back to you and the M. While I can understand this point of view, I don't think it's particularly helpful to you or him. I'd be willing to bet that your H doesn't feel like he's 'broken' or needs to be 'healed'. He's making a decision to be with OW and right now there's nothing you can do about that.

I believe, as backwards as this might sound, it's far more helpful in the long run to validate someone else's point of view, even if you disagree with it. Like 'I bet you've got 100 good reasons to leave this M, would you share with me a few of them?'

I would also bet your H is not doing things to intentionally hurt you. Although I can understand why you might think he is. I find it more useful in keeping me centered to choose to believe that no one can hurt me without my permission. Helps me maintain my boundaries.

When my W decided to leave my M it was because she was not getting what she wanted or needed from me, and that's at least partly on me. Maybe I didn't have it to give ( I didn't ) and she may not have communicated clearly to me what it was that she needed ( she didn't ). So it's a 50/50 deal, as in all relationship stuff.

Thinking that your H needs anything from you right now, is likely to push him farther and faster away from you. Trying to 'convince' him to return to you, is also likely to completely backfire. Might be most helpful to work on yourself, discover your own insecurities and get really comfortable with being you.


As for the 'getting the love you want' - I've read it and the passionate marriage book too. In my opinion, you want the former, it helped me understand the relationship dynamic and myself, I felt the latter was more intellectual reading. Of course this is only my thoughts. I found 'getting the love' will also explain the love you still have for H as well.

Good luck, and it might be time to start your own thread.

- TTM