I am in a marriage where my wife will not kiss me, hug me, or have any physical intimacy with me. I have suggested counseling and even sent over lists for her to pick from, but no movement has occurred. At this point, it has been over three months since I was kissed or had physical intimacy with my wife. Any hugs that have occurred have been forced by me. She stated a few weeks ago that she did not love me anymore and no longer had any feelings for me. That crushed me. I do not know where to go from here; I cannot live out my married life without any physical contact with my wife. Every time I bring this up, my wife pushes me away and shows no interest in changing things whatsoever. She tells me that kissing me is like kissing her brother, and it makes her sick at her stomach.

So, I am at a crossroad, should I stay and be miserable or separate. Neither option sounds good to me.

Before you reply, please read the background information below.

Background

My wife and I have been married now almost 11 years. We met our sophomore year in college at the age of 19, she was a single mother. We dated for almost two years, and got married at 21, a week after I graduated from college.

I should have realized that something was not right before we got married. We had virtually no connection and had very few shared interests. What I perceived as passion was most likely infatuation. I think that our relationship was just comfortable. In fact, she told me on our honeymoon that she married me because she thought I was a safe and would always treat her and her daughter well. Looking back, that was a pretty strange way to start off a marriage.

Fast forward three months, she was still going to school and was commuting about an hour each way. At which time she told me that our marriage was not working and she wanted to move back to our college town and would see me on the weekends. At this point, we decided to start a family. In my heart, I hoped that this would connect us and bring us closer together.

In the next few years, we truly went through a tumultuous period. In 1998, we had our first child together, a beautiful boy, and I started my first company. In the Spring of 1999, she had an online affair with a man from overseas that turned into frequent phone conversations while I was at work. Unfortunately in the Fall of 1999, the new startup required me to travel 2-3 times per month, which made it very difficult for my wife. I think that I also started to use work as an escape from my troubled marriage.

In the Fall of 2000, my startup Company failed and added financial woes to our already troubled marriage. I also found out that my wife was dealing with an eating disorder, which further complicated matters.

In the Spring of 2001, I stated consulting with local startup companies and my wife started modeling. I no longer traveled and worked from home. However, this did nothing for my marriage. In fact, my wife now no longer wanted me around the house. I could not win, if I was gone, it upset her, but if I was home, then it upset her. I was at a loss.

In the Winter of 2001, my wife started having weird medical symptoms, which turned out to be from panic disorder. The solution for this was individual counseling, meeting with a psychiatrist, and taking Zoloft. Through counseling, my wife realized that many of her issues were related to emotional scars from her childhood growing up with an abusive mother and alcoholic father. She was then able to confront the issues and put them behind her. Suddenly our marriage was back on track, we started an online marketing business that was doing very well, I started working full-time for a technology company, and in the Summer of 2002, we decided to have another child.

Things went along well; we bought a new house, a condo, a beautiful lot on a cul-de-sac, and two new high-end luxury cars from Lexus. Life was good, until the baby came. All of a sudden, we were back in the same rut as before. However, this time we hired a full-time nanny to help out with the kids and hopefully keep my wife from getting overwhelmed. Unfortunately, my wife also decided to stop taking her Zoloft due to the possible side effects on the embryo and finally, nursing baby.

In January 2003, we had a huge blow up over my starting to travel for work and almost split up, but agreed to attend marriage counseling, which seemed to somewhat do the trick. We seemed to get back on track and in the Fall of 2006, we decided to have another child. This is when things started to go downhill quickly. While my wife was pregnant, I was going through an acquisition of the Company that I worked for and was now required to start traveling more than ever before, and was required to travel to Chicago at least twice a month to meet with my new boss.

In the Spring of 2007, I decided that I had enough of my employer, and started putting out feelers. In the Summer of 2007, I started with a new employer as a top executive and was once again happy with my work. This job only required travel once a month to Boston for leadership meetings.

Fast forward to February 2008, after traveling additionally for kickoff meetings for the year, my wife gave me an ultimatum. I could both quit my job and find a job that didn’t travel, or she would leave me. I really did not think this was fair to ask, but I sat down with her, went through the budget, and agreed to talk with my boss about cutting out the travel, which he agreed to do with the exception of the monthly leader’s meeting, which was for two nights each month. From a compensation and budget perspective, it was nearly impossible to find jobs with base compensation of close to $200k that did not require some travel. At the same time, we were not in a financial position to do so.

Welcome back to MB, MJA,

Your history from your other posts reflect your same concerns they do now--you're don't experience your ENs for affection, acceptance and admiration are being met, is that correct?

And your premise for not finding another job with a base of $200k without travel was exactly as it was when you didn't think you could find a job three years ago with a base of $60k without travel. It was stated in the same way, so I'm just bringing that back to you.

What I really don't understand from your posts is where the recovery happened for your WW's online A. What have you done to ensure there weren't subsequent online A's during your marriage?

Your greatly reduced travel and concern for time spent with your wife and family shows me you have been following the rule of care. Focus on the travel, however, seems to be the redherring for the rest of your marriage.

Have you verified that your wife isn't in an A right now? Possibly, a long-term A?

My perception is that her acts of affection, acceptance and admiration have gone up and down during your marriage. To me, there are formulas we follow, dances with do, with our partners...from this repeated pattern, what have done differently each time?

And what steps did you follow to recover from her original A?

LA

I am interested to learn more, too, and believe the MB plan can help you.

LA, though, I don't understand why you consider the work travel a red herring. I've been on the receiving end, and my empty house screamed to me, every day, "My love for the status and money my job gives is WAY more important to me than whatever you could ever give me. No matter what we do or don't do, life with you is NOTHING, NOTHING compared to all that my job gives me every day." I probably would have given an ultimatum except I was very sure that he would've chosen that job, even at a failing company, because of whatever it gave him, EVERY DAY over life with me and our kids. My H also agreed to cut way back on the travel, and that's great, but his choice to NOT look for a job without travel says to me in a very loud way where our life together falls in the order of what makes him happy. Yeah, he SAYS they are not available, but he doesn't ever LOOK. Because it's NOT what he WANTS. If he wanted to live with us, he'd "make it happen," the way he makes happen the things that he DOES want. He'd be sending resumes, networking, identifying alternatives to present to his boss. We act on what is important to us.

IOW, it's been painful to me that my H has been has been willing to be a husband to me and a father to his kids on the current job's terms. Instead of being more selective when choosing employment, to be an employee based on his more than reasonable terms.

Have you all looked at alternatives like yur W coming up with you when you go out of town?

Like LA said, the Marital Recovery program here will really help you two rebuild a better marraige than ever. Have you read the Basic Concepts? What's your plan of action?

EO,

In MJA's case, he has changed jobs due to travel, kept it as a top priority to minimize it over the years and even this year, re-negotiated with his boss down to two-overnights, if that, a month. He has actively changed the length and frequency. He's taken steps.

And in his other posts, he describes their marital interactions, even going to dinner once together, as not changing. They were on their way to dinner when he told her about an annual (happens once a year) scheduled trip, and she demanded he turn around and go home because his travel was the undoing of their relationship.

That's the red herring...when you make happiness entirely in the other partner's hands due to one thing...it can't be and you know that so well now, EO. It isn't all your H's travelling...it's his continual broken promises, pressuring...if only you'd live in SoCal, then everything would be happiness for him.

You know that's not true...no one element kills it all...it's parts and pieces, given different weight at different times.

Totally understandable for lengthy and frequent travel...was a great call on his wife's part to bring that up early in their marriage. Same for yours...and MJA has looked, changed companies and renegotiated holding his marriage as top priority. I know your H will do so someday, too...I believe this...and I think that kicks it in for you for MJA...on the other side of it. You have a high EN for family commitment...and maybe MJA will look at seeing if his wife's need is high in that way, too...not for trips with the family...for the daily exchanges for an hour of UA with the kids, with her...I dunno.

I just know when you change because of what gives unhappiness to your partner, and you modify, curtail and set limits...and your partner remains focused on it as the sole point of conflict...then there's more within your partner than you're seeing or hearing about. There's a payoff to slap back at your partner and say you no longer love them. You know that phrase...means she stopped acting from her choice to love him.

And from infatuation to second phase of marriage, this happens...and it can get stuck, like a needle on an old 45, replaying...not really communicating what's behind it...therefore, no way to address the issue behind the issue.

LA

MJA,

I believe my first move would be to snoop and find out who your wife is having an affair with ...

LA, thanks for putting it back in perspective. That makes sense that things can be so painful when there is a lack of connection, but working to get back that connection, our problems can be put in their true persective so we can resolve them in a win-win way.


Can be withdrawal, or worse, and MJA won't know until he finds out. But from here, I don't know enough about it for it to make sense that someone looking for space to carry on an affair would be disappointed finding out they are about to get some space. But I haven't read the rest of MJA's posts.

A few comments to add:

First, my wife and I went through Imago counseling and it helped is some ways by letting us understand one another much better. However, what ended up happening was that I met all of her needs, but none of mine were met. In fact, I went to my current employer at the time and asked for a role that had minimal or no travel.

My needs were time with her alone (a date each week that could be at home), a passionate kiss once a day, and physical intimacy once a week. Unfortunately, she has issues with being vulnerable that stem from her childhood. She was also not a fan of the Imago communication style.

Second, when I left my last employer, I looked at several jobs and had many offers. I included my wife in the decision process, and this one was the best option. In fact, I opened the office 5 minutes from my house and I am able to go to all of the kids activities, take the kids to school, coach teams, be home by 5:30 every day, and have lunch with my wife and kids.

Third, I am 100% sure that she is not having an affair. Physical intimacy is just not high on her list or priorities.

Fourth, she does not spend time with me when I am at home. In fact, I have lined up baby sitters and still cannot get her to go. She has no desire to spend time alone with me by herself.

Fifth, when she gave me the ultimatum, we agreed on a mutual solution. I would continue in my current role until our debts were paid off and we could afford me taking a lower paying role, perhaps with my current employer. She has also started working part-time as an interior decorator.

What is funny, is that she constantly tells me that I do not earn enough to provide for our family and that I should look for a job that pays more, which without doubt means more travel.

I think that financial stress has further complicated our marriage. Due to bad financial decisions earlier in our marriage, wur credit is so poor that if we sold our current home we would not qualify for a new one at an affordable rate. We have also been living paycheck to paycheck.

We are currently using the Dave Ramsey plan, so we will see where it takes us.

At the end of the day, I love my wife and family dearly and want nothing more than for us to be happy. Having a job that travels is not important to me as long as I can provide for my family.

MJA,
I am NOT giving you advice. I am one of the people in who really has problems. But I did want to tell you something.

I really feel that I no longer LOVE my husband, but I do want to try to fix this relationship. EWS and I are looking for things to share and I come here daily to talk with others about my feelings. EWS has expressed that he wants just what you have listed and in my willingness to TRY I am doing those things even when I DON'T FEEL like it. It's my attempt to meet his EN. What is your wife's feeling about saving the relationship?

I was 100% sure EWS would never commit adultery, he had two PA. I was naive. Then I had an EA. It does happen.

My therapist said that the wife should heal first and then the husband. If it happens the other way her heart will be too hard to open to you.

MJA,

Thank you for the info on your exposure to Imago therapy. What have you found in yourself that attracted her most to you when you guys fell in love? Would you say that is the main crux of what is currently her main issue with you?

Her issues of fear of intimacy are hers...what plan did the counselor give you guys to work on those? To remind you both you're a team right now as you relate to the past, not be chained by it? Takes her doing different to FEEL different. Her fears are entirely up to her to solve. Only within her power. You enabling her to not face them by taking on yourself as the cause does her harm.

One night a week? How about 15 hours of UA? Whether she feels like it or not...to do it as an act of commitment to the marriage...and the feelings will follow.

Here's where I get bitey inside...because she's half of the marriage, too, including financial responsibility, working on your joint credit, meeting your ENs (which gives her loving feelings in her own love bank, too)...and I see where you get in the way of her reality.

Your credit is already sunk...how do you think a divorce will take it down further? As her to POJA with you the best way to divorce...where you both can be enthusiastic about it...respect each others' choices...yours for choosing to work on your stuff and balance her EN for FS with FC over the years. Hers, to not put your marriage as her top priority. Be good with that. You know she's choosing...she is as able as you are to change her life experience. She chooses not to...

And that's okay. Figure out where she'll move to, without the kids, and how you'll figure out visitation, in-home daycare while she works full time (she'll have to)...hey, the kids need continuity in the same home, with you, the one who wants the marriage...and doesn't want it at all costs.

Honor her choices in this way...you may see her fear of intimacy exceeded by fear of truly losing that which she cherishes...getting it above the rim of her neck-deep resentment, entitlement and fantasy. Be cheery and respectful. Listen and repeat..."I hear you're choosing not to love me nor act from your choice to love me. I get it. I understand. How do you want to split the debt up so it's 50/50?"

Go over all the exercises and materials from the Imago Therapy...re-read and refresh again.

I know you believe there's no PA going on...gotta tell you, we can burn hot for fantasy, because we burned hot for our hubbies before they became them...and it may be the exact reason why she isn't meeting your ENs for SF, Affection, Admiration...it's how we can punish our BH's for not making us feel loved, cherished, protected, secure, happy, joyful, connected...all those things we truly are responsible for, btw.

Many a partner has lived the DJ of "Oh, they wouldn't" to find out, "They did!!" which is why verifying is so essential. Because when a WS allows another to meet their ENs, they CUT OFF their BS from meeting them...even though you believe you are...she blocks your deposits...a sign she still isn't in the marriage, not committed to it...

You've done so much...I can't help but think you're like CuthbertCalculus here on MB...you got the message and ran with it...you love being close to home, your family commitment gives you joy and contentment, too, I believe. You love how seriously you took her concerns, her fears...because they got you where you are right now...and it's a balance between the FS and the FC...and you're doing it superbly in my book.


I just had a brain lapse...what was the ultimatum and what was the agreed upon solution to it? Maybe a few details of the plan would help me out.

Be sure to kudo yourself, your changes...be affection, admiring and appreciative to self...because that's part of your half, your responsibility, too...and remind me, your goal is to have an intact and thriving marriage, correct?

LA

I get the feeling that she does not really care. Everytime I bring it up, I get the cold shoulder. Her wants and desires are different that mine. She wants someone to share the domestic and parenting duties, but does not want a physical relationship.

Our physical relationship started declining before we got married, but we were too comfortable with the relationship to break it off. I think that being 21 and immature had a lot to do with it. We even talked about the lack of connection. I think that it was infatuation on my part more than anything.

On our wedding night, she told me that she did not feel an intimate connection.

One month after we were married, she told me that she married me because I was a safe bet and would never hurt her or her daughter. She did not marry me because she was "burning hot" for me.

I also think that not having that time where we were the most important person in each other's life was a key cause as well. Her daughter was her most important person. We never had that time to grow alone together. So, we had children to fill that void and hopefully create the connection, but it did not work. In fact, it had the opposite effect.

MJA,

I'm callin' you on your DJs, darlin. Sorry 'bout that.

My DH and I never had alone time before kids...I had TWO sons when we married...and we were burning hot a lot...and yes, it quelled quite a bit as we lived together a year before marriage...definitely learned that playing house does a lot of harm to reality of marriage.

However, we've gone hot and not...and I withheld SF to punish my DH...and we've hurt each other a lot, and seen each other, at times, as nothing but robots fulfilling our roles to get by one more day.

She made vows to you...and you to her...and they are extraordinary because they are for life. Live up to them. Her not meeting your EN for SF is equal to you not meeting her EN for FC...understand the importance...read the love languages books...really get how turned on each of you can get for the other because meeting ENs, without LBs, ARE acts of Intimacy...

When we take the action...say, creative intimacy, we then feel intimate...and SF is acting out, sorta, our feelings of intimacy. Work, sexual, recreational, conflict, commitment, intellectual, emotional--all are considered intimacies...so when you work together (domestically, on a business, on your marriage, on your friendship)...when you play together...when you go through conflict with one another respectfully (good friends of conversation), when you share your acts from your commitment, not your feelings; when you share your thoughts, ideas and dreams with each other...then you will FEEL intimate, connected...because you are!

Can result in a marriage you didn't assume or discount because it wasn't before...you both are married, you're there and aware of how precious each of you are, learning how to partner, not parent...big changes are coming...know your wife can feel passion for YOU...you get to choose what you believe...Harley says she can, and you can for her.

Value and respect her honesty from your wedding night...the act of telling you her truth (not THE truth) WAS an act of intimacy. How 'bout that? If you take what she says as the truth, as reality, then you react like "What am I doing wrong so that she doesn't feel/think/believe what she does" (which at 40, let alone at 21 is an old, automatic reaction)...then you break the intimacy apart...you take on what isn't yours and don't cherish and celebrate her act of intimacy.

What did you say in reply, on your wedding night? Were there DJs or did you acknowledge her truth and share your own...again, two people acting from intimacy...that is intimate.

I greatly encourage you to read Harville Hendrix's "Getting the love you want" if you are choosing to buy into her belief that she married you because you were a safe bet...you are so much more than that. Get to know more about whom we choose and why...ignite yourself to know more, see more clearly...and you will hurt less, I promise.

I hope you've learned that bringing in other folks into your marriage, yep, even kids, to do what you are unwilling to do isn't a good idea. You already experience your marriage as second after your stepdaughter...thinking your own kids would help your marriage be closer was nutsy reasoning. Get to the bottom of your last son's conception...that's how recent your thinking has been to fill a void.

When neither of you are missing.

LA

Thank you for your feedback. I will re-read the book with this in mind.

MJA,

You're welcome...I wanted to say something about the DJs...I spot them because I lived them for most my life, 'k?

Assuming her stuff...that she doesn't care...is your choice. Not within her power. She can believe, think, feel, perceive whatever she wants...she chooses her perspective (part of her power)...doesn't touch your choice of what to believe, 'k?

You can choose to believe that we love by choice...she chose you to love...and stopped acting from her love, hence, stopped feeling loving feelings as a result.

You can choose (reasonably) to believe that resentment, anger, disappointment, frustration from lack of respect has built this conglomerate anger wall between loving feelings and her experience. That our own resentment, which we create and build, blocks our own loving and connected feelings (which would make sense because resentment disconnects from our partners and reality).

Choose wisely. Do not use this power of choosing what you believe separate from her to harm yourself...see the payoff you may feel in choosing to believe she doesn't care, is your enemy...might be you thinking you're protecting yourself when in reality you're attacking your union.

And may be the signal to you to show you how your wife got to doing that already.

And about re-reading...we have old patterns...we know this...oddest thing in our human experience...we can experience intense epiphanies, life-changing, brain-altering (seemingly) and a ways down the road, have it hit us again, and we're stunned...I already knew that! Our brains can live as if we don't know...as if we forget...don't waste time on recriminations...I believe when we're ready again, God brings the lesson again...and again...which is loving us thoroughly, faithfully and wholly...for a lifetime.

LA

I'm new here and not really schooled on the whole process, but looking at it simplistically I would say with three boys 9, 5, and 1 - she just may be worn out and feeling like she has no real life of her own. She bitches about your job, but may wish she had one where she could get away. That doesn't justify her behavior, but I was nuts when my kids were little just from fatigue and resentment. Maybe she should go on a Women's retreat, preferably faith based. Just throwing in my two sense.