I remember, when I separated the first time, a girl in my office wanting to fix me up with a friend of a friend (who apparently resemebled Brendan Fraser). I said no thanks. I was in a world of hurt at the time, and the only person who I felt could help me out was PWC (this was before I found MB).

After my second separation, I mentioned to my sister about missing having someone to cuddle with, missing sex, missing a companion. She said that you can get sex anytime, with no strings. I said no thanks. I was still in a world of hurt and PWC was the only one I felt could fix it. PWC was the only one I wanted.

Now, I'm stronger, happier and much more sane. Having an affair would harm not only me, but my son and my family. It's not worth it. Plus those pesky mirrors all over the house.

I can't say I haven't contemplated it.

I don't because I am more of a man then the OM is, and I don't want to be an OM. I have extreme testicular fortitude, and remembering that a real man keeps his vows and commitments when everyone else around may be doing something else is all the boost my self-esteem needs.

Sorry to all those WH's out there, but REAL men don't cheat on their wives.

NRO

FIRST, my conscience. SECOND, the fact that I made the decision never to have an affair long before thoughts of revenge arose.

And, to be totally honest...I would have been too freakin' scared to anyway. I've only been with one woman -- my wife. Just the thought of being naked with another woman is plenty uncomfortable. So I guess perhaps, FEAR was my third reason.

So, you don't consider your W a REAL woman?

Introvert,

My husband would be completely devastated if I had an affair.

Because he would think that his affair contributed to so much pain in my heart that his love could not heal, and that the reason I had an affair was because of what he did, and he would blame himself.

My FWH would break into shattered pieces so small that I would not be able to pick them up. His pain would be unfathomably great - probably more than what I suffered, because he would carry three sets of pain:

The pain of his guilt from his own affair, the pain of my betrayal of him, and the third set of pain - MY pain from his affair. Yes, he carries that, because he fully understands it, bears it, sees it, and takes it into his heart daily as I attempt to recover from it.

I could not add to his pain, for he has both his own and mine to bear. To have a revenge affair would burden him beyond repair.

Today, this very morning, he gave me a letter of apology and cried with me. This because I had a rough day over the weekend, triggered over some recent events. He makes amends wherever he can, and fills the cracks.

I have no purpose in seeking revenge. There is no revenge to be found against those who love me. This man loves me.

Why would I hurt him?
Even at his weakest moment, in the throes of the affair, he loved me.

There was no doubt that he loved me.
He was stupid, yes.
He was irresponsible, yes.
He was disrespectful, dishonest, disloyal, and much more, yes.

But at no time did he stop loving me.

He is not my enemy. He is someone I love, with whom I want a future, a marriage, a partnership, a friendship, a life, a glorious loving ever-after.

I would not have a revenge affair on him. And yes, it would crush his heart if I did, destroy his very soul, in the same way his affair destroyed mine. We are, after all, partners, friends, lovers, living in a glorious ever-after...with this one hitch in the mix. Which we have, and will, survive.

Schoolbus

I sense a bit of a double standard in this thread as far as how many people her are handling my ONS "BS affair" as compared to how the same people handle a WS (who were the 1st to break their vows).

It seems that if a WS comes to MB, and is honest in what they did, adopts all of MB principles, seeks counselling, and does everything "by the book" as one would say...they get nothing but encouragement on how to fix what they did. Why is it that if someone does the aformentioned things to fix their marriage, and adds in that BS wasn't meeting my EN's theat they seem to get some leeway, as long as they are committed to recovery?

I'm 100% committed to recovery, get harley counselling, adopted MB principles...and I also said that my EN of SF was not fullfilled. I'm 100% responsible for my actions as far as the ONS is concerned...but yet, not much support from any members.

Is the fact that someone says that their affair started with EA instead of PA the reason? Is the whole "revenge" tag associated for a BS's affair the reason. Is it the final verdict that "revenge" is always the reason? That tag seems to be like some sort of blanket statement that sums up every single BS affair, when the original affair can have about 50 different reasons. Why is that?

Schoolbus,

That was a great post, but some things came to mind as I read it:

Do you really think he was oblivious to how much you'd be hurt by his A? He had to know that it would be a potential marriage-ender. How can you be so sure he loved you during the A, when you yourself say your love for him is one thing that stopped you? Would you be as sure he loved you if he had passed HIV (for example) to you?

I'm not debating you; I'm just curious how you can be so sure he loved you while he was doing something that EVERY spouse knows will tear the heart out of their partner.

A WS can fake and lie their way through anything, including love.

In my opinion, any spouse who's currently cheating and says they still love their spouse, has no idea what love really is.

It is akin to physically abusing your kids, but saying you loved them, even as you beat them.

That's a very twisted version of love, if it's love at all.

Krazy,

He loved me. There's no doubt about that. While his behavior does represent the opposite of fidelity, it is possible for a person to love you and to be unfaithful to you.

It happens every day. The very concept of MB is that a spouse believes that they are no longer "in love" with their partner, so they have an affair. The fact is that they ARE in love with their partner, it is just that certain factors have occurred which diminish those feelings - such as not having the EN's met at a high enough level, for example. Longer term marriages I think get more vulnerable because the couple becomes more complacent as the years go by.

Was he oblivious to the hurt it would have caused me if I found out? Of course not. He went to great lengths to keep me from finding out - and told me that he had planned that I never would find out. He said that the secret tore him up. He said at one point he was looking at me during dinner, and asked himself, "What are you doing???? You have a beautiful wife that you love, and you are doing this, it would kill her, you need to stop!" Yet it somehow had him in a crazy grip and he felt twisted in its grasp. He swore to himself he would die to protect me from the pain.

It just didn't work out the way he planned.


In the case of my FWH's affair, there actually was NOT an emotional affair - it was a "sex buddy" situation, nothing else. The OW confirms it, and I do know her and her background and activities. It was what it was, and given the factors and the truth of the situation, that is what happened.

My FWH could have lied about loving me, certainly. Anyone can. But during the affair we went places, on dates, we did things together, entertained, had parties, made love. I knew something was wrong, but he loved me - and never stopped telling me that. He was sincere, truthful in that.

He could have lied about loving me, but you know your partner. You know lies when they drip off the lips of someone, especially when you have known that person for 33 years. You cannot fake love, or the remorse this man has, and you cannot fake the guilt. He could not fake loving me - he is not an actor, and it isn't in him to carry on for two and a half years (let alone planning to do it for the rest of his life!) in an act of love and restitution if he did not mean everything he is saying and doing. My FWH is basically an honest man, who did something dishonest and out of character. This affair does not define him as a whole person, this "worst" part of him does not define him. Neither does his "best" part define him.

During the affair, he did things that were outside of his character. He lied, which is out of the ordinary. He sneaked around, out of the ordinary. He had secrets, out of the ordinary.

He is once again his "normal" self. Actually, he has made significant changes to his "normal" self, in that he is completely open and honest about everything - little daily things he does, computers, calls, etc. I have access to anything, anytime. He talks to me about the most inner feelings he has, something he didn't do before the affair - but he used to do awhile back in our relationship. He does so many things for me, recognizes my needs, and takes care of them. We are recovering - and would not be here if he hadn't been pulling the chain with me.

So I know he loved me during the affair. He just was doing things that betrayed the love. Sort of like cutting off your nose to spite your face. He hurt us, yes. Like I said, he has his own pain to bear, and mine, too. He is bearing that, with dignity.

So

It never entered my mind. Divorce was what I was contemplating.

Two words.....My integrity.

Why no RA?

Because I am glad I am me and not her.

why no RA???

After all the BS he has put me through, right now all men suck......

and it just is not in me.....no matter what

not2fun

Why no RA?

Because I took vows and would never dream of stooping to that level.

I am much happier as a BS than a WS. I can look in the mirror and know I didn't break my vows and betray the person I was supposed to be with "till death do us part".

I've also never seen cheating as an act against the spouse. I've seen it as an act against the family, knowing full well such an act impacts children as well. So I may not have done it for her, but I certainly would never inflict such a horrid act on my children.

Neither would I if I had children.

Honest answer.

Introvert:

There is no "Double Standard"

The standard around here is that you don't date until after the Divorce is final and it is recommended that one wait up to two years to get into a new realtionship to avoid rebounds and possibly another bad sitch.

You recommended dating as soon as the BS thought the marriage was "done".

That's foggy thinking. Many a WS has used the line "I was DONE with the M so it was OK for me to sleep with the AP!"

MEDC, for example, feels about the same way you do. That it is OK to date before the D is final. He prefaces his remarks, however, by stating that it isn't MB to say that. Plus, he never did it. So, MEDC claiming that it is OK? Comes from a different place that your claim. You seem to just be defending your poor decision. And THAT is foggy thinking.

Just my .02

LG

So, even though I'm booking counselling sessions with Jennifer for W and I, following MB principles (all of them), have NC with OW, allow W info on "everything" I do every day, express remorse for the ONS, etc.... I am still doing something wrong? My W started a membership here and was greeted with open arms after I recommended she come here. Why the different reponse for me?

edit:

Just making sure, once again, that people know I was not aware of MB until after my ONS. If I was aware of MB I would not have done it...just to make it clear.

Why I didn't have a revenge affair:

Well, once upon a time (decades ago) I did try that and it did not help me feel better about my WH's serial adultery and didn't cause him to stop his adulteries (in fact he just used my revenge adultery as his excuse for all his adulteries after that, they were supposedly 'revenge affairs' becuase of my adultery...)

I promptly confessed my very brief affair, explained (not excused) that I was vulnerable to the temptation because of his adulteries and because he not only wasn't meeting my needs but was flirting with OW right in front of me, giving OW the very things he was refusing to give me! I told my husband I wanted a real marriage, wanted our problems to be solved, for us to go to counseling, and that I would never cheat again.

And even though he refused to work on our marriage, wasn't interested in meeting my needs, continued to give to OW what I wanted from him, had several more affairs himself, I never had another revenge affair.

Even when he dumped me for one of his OW and filed for divorce, I still didn't cheat.

When he DEMANDED visitation with ME, not just our daughters, said I "had to" come along for visitation all day Saturdays with him and daughters, said he was going to come over after work every day to have dinner with us, hang out and watch videos like he was still part of the family (even though he had just dumped me again to go back to OW after yet another failed recovery attempt) I asked how he thought that was going to work when I started dating after the divorce. His response was that I was "too old to date" and that "no man" would "want" me! (Ironically many of the men who've shown an interest in me are too young for me LOL.) Because he'd sais that, my mother wanted me to start dating ASAP, even though the divorce still was not final. But I wouldn't because it would have been wrong to do so and my daughters were upset enough already by having one wayward parent.

Several of my friends (some 'Christian' friends even) tried to set me up with men to date. I refused because I was still married and still wanting to save my marriage. (And then later after I was divorced I still refused to date THOSE particular males because they were the sort who saw nothing wrong with dating a married woman.)

There were also some guys at the ballroom dance lessons/functions I was taking my daughters and their teen friends to who were interested in dating me. But since I was still married and there to chaperone the teens I turned them down. And just like the guys my friends tried to set me up with, since they were willign to date me when I was still married, I'm not interested in them. Anyway a couple of them have a sort of grudge against me now, an immature attitude that I 'rejected' them by not considering dating them when I was still married... whatever LOL. (One was a gentleman, Christian, great dancer, good looking, and totally respected/agreed that it would be wrong for me to date before the divorce was final... before my divorce was final he met another divorced lady at ballroom dance and married her. That's fine with me because they are such a great Christian couple and my next husband will have to be a man who wants SPECIFICALLY me anyway LOL)

Then for a while after the divorce I still didn't want to date because I still loved my WXH and was still hoping for reconciliation.

I'd be willing to consider dating now (but not the one-on-one, sex before marriage trend) but so far all the interested males are too young IMHO or those guys who wanted to date me when I was still married.

I STRONGLY suspect that my WXH might suddenly show an interest in reconciliation once I start dating a new man. I admit was tempted at times to date even if I really wasn't interested in a new man, as a way to get my WXH to shift gears... but that would have been wrong and I'm not a good bluffer anyway. At times I even worried that by NOT dating I was throwing away possibly THE only chance to get my WH to take an interest in reconciliation, to make him jealous enough to defog... It certainly would have been a 180 and therefore likely very effective. But even if that might have worked it still would have been wrong.

And I wouldn't have wanted to use another man that way anyway.

I worry that when I do meet a new man my WXH will want to reconcile when it's too late. What I know about myself is that once I do give my heart to a new man I will no longer want reconciliation with my WXH. My guess is he will react just like MEDC's WXS and will start making demands. This really worries me because I've had MAJOR boundary and abuse issues with my WXH in the past and certainly wouldn't want THAT again!

I'm REALLY glad my WXH lives in another state now and therefore he only comes here a few times per year (he visits his mommy and sisters in Florida a LOT more than he comes here, even though he's way closer to us. Hey, I'm not complaining LOL)

Why didn't I have a revenge affair? After seeing how much harm my WXH's adultery did to my daughters why would I want to ever see them go through that again? Whatever cheap thrill or illegitimate self-esteem boost I might have gotten from a revenge affair certainly would not have been justified since it would have inflicted more hurt on my daughters at a time when they needed at least one parent to be sane and unselfish!

And it would be pointless to get involved with a man who would be willing to commit adultery anyway as that would not have led to a successful new marriage for me, would it? I don't exactly want my next husband to be an adulterer too!

Also, I didn't have a revenge affair because as bad as it hurt to be on the receiving end of the devastation of adultery I would still prefer that to being an adulterer. I would not want to become something so vile and low. I wouldn't be able to like or respect myself much if I did that.

And last but not least, my relationship with God is very important to me now. I don't want sex or a man in my life enough to damage my relationship with God.

Here's a different angle for you. I believe that not only are we humans, but we are spiritual beings as well. "I" believe that when a man and a woman join together in sex, there are soul ties formed. Those ties are very hard to break. I don't believe there is such a thing as a casual "roll in the hay".

So to me, no matter who does it first, those bonds are still formed. A marriage is taking a vow in front of witnesses to remain bonded together in marriage for the rest of your lives. Whoever breaks that special and sacred bond to be with another (casually or otherwise), brings that other person into the marriage, spiritually and physically.

I agree.

intro,

So, no, I don't think you are doing everything wrong in your recovery efforts.

I only think you have this one thing wrong, that's all. MHO is that the ONS was wrong, it was impulsive, and that it was equal in "badness" to your WW's infidelity.

I think you see, looking back, that it was not the reaction you would have chosen had you known what you know now.

And it wasn't the reaction that you would want to report to your Grandma.

And it wasn't the reaction that makes you feel honorable. Or just. Or right. Or true.

When it all comes down to it, you know in your heart that if you could take it back, you would. That alone tells you that you know it was wrong.

You can throw out the legalities. You can take any hair splitting stuff and do whatever you want with it. You can examine any religious text for details and scriptures to apply.

When all is said and done, you wish you hadn't done it because you know in your heart that it wasn't the right reaction and that you want to take it back.

Not by MY standards or anyone else's - but by YOUR OWN.

So starting from that point, you move forward. You make restitution. You decide what is right. But I will say this - from what you wrote, and from the fact that you brought it up, you yourself know that it is NOT a "non-issue".

I'm not saying it is WORSE than your wife's affair. Equal. Just equal.

And I am very happy you are both here, using the approaches to recover your marriage.

Because I know the concepts here work. As long as both parties understand what to own, what not to own, what to do, that they BOTH need to work, and when to ask for help.

Looks like you are on the right track, in my book.

SB