Thank you LA, i just did this (stroking my cheek and neck) and I can't exlain it, but I felt better.
Thank you

Dino,


So much for my acronymic acrobatics, eh? UA...Undivided Attention...Dr. Harley says get 15 hours of it with your spouse per week when there isn't a crisis (healthy maintenance) and 20 hours or more of it when there is crisis...can't be tv, movies, either.

RC...Recreational Companionship...again Dr. Harley lists it as one of the ENs...where we play together...experience each other recreationally...He even made a Recreational Inventory to widen up all those choices we have...and use the UA time to RC.

As for knowing how the OM's court martial is going...I'm still confused. Infidelity is in the domain of the military (affects performance) and in the family domain. I don't understand why they wouldn't be informing you, the partner (and OM'sW) about each other's cases. I guess I'm thinking that these two families are downright important...and the military would be informing you directly and OMW directly, because they hid the affair, so why would the military depend on them to be honest with you?

Seems to me that if this is a violation of the Code of Conduct...then it's public within the military...have access. Just me wondering...not knowing. So I wasn't thinking of you getting anything out of WW, 'k? I'm a big proponent of obtaining the truth independently.


How do you know she'll scream? What she'll say? You already know she has sole autonomy over herself...she chooses moment by moment, just as you do.

That's me kicking some DJs around that we do...because we've already experienced it with our spouses...so brain says, "Oh, she'll do that again later, given the same subject, same response." Is that real in your experience of humans?

Sure can be a comforting thought--if I can just get one good experience with her, admitting she's lonely, loves me, misses me...then that will be her response forever.

Up to you in your personal recovery to see where you falsely comfort (choose where your thoughts dwell) and where you really heal (in the present, in reality). We have thousands of these in us...predicting, mindreading, estimating and projecting. All to make us feel better right now when we're where we have no control--in the future.

I think I feel a lot of frustration when I do this to myself...start that trippy loop with no end.

Your marital plan is NC for life. Half her responsiblity and half yours. Know your half. When you know what is within your power, your limits, then the predicting, mindreading, estimating and projecting drop off. Unnecessary.

Reality is a welcome relief to emotional torment and injury.

Share your tools, Dino. You fear wrong time, place, tone, words...share, anyway. Seriously. Your self-negation is hurting you tremendously...and you see her doing it to you. Please affirm and connect...that's within your province of choice...for you, about you, half your marriage and marital recovery.

I remember "grasping" when I was in this stage of recovery...my mother used to say that phrase a lot "you're grasping at straws" to build my case. I was stunned at how I felt when WH allowed me to massage his feet one night. And when he didn't curl his lips one time that I expected him to...and I flipped that signal over in myself...I had discounted a lot of tiny stuff he did throughout our marriage...I lost the wonderment of him, new every day, and blocked his tiny deposits for me looking for the big ones.

When I acted in the tiniest ways with clarity and awareness, all these ways I was already being loved opened up...I didn't argue them away...I listened to MYSELF and heard the ways I was starving myself, seemingly of love, when really, it was reality.

Doesn't mean I was a crumb-clencher...wasn't about setting boundaries or requirements...was true amazement at the privilege, not the right, I had to see my DH, for him to be present. All parts...which means I could see my own preciousness in staying present, too.

Comes from me saying, "What do I do next?" and MC saying, "Are you a human doing or a human being?" See, the way I treated myself was how I treated DH..."Yeah, but what is he gonna do next?"

We often say, "I love being with you" and there's no real doing, is there? Yet when conflict comes, suddenly we gotta do work, do awareness, research, know and study what we didn't do to stop doing or not doing...and it's a mad sprint of a thousand legs in our minds at once.

We are beings, Dino. We be. Doesn't mean we don't do...means reality is we be no matter what, and who we are being with matters. Tiny choices of love going on here, Dino. Get to see your own, do not criticize or mock yourself for seeing minutely what you overlooked, possibly for years. Everything matters because everyone matters. Cherish and know what you did not before. It's okay. Only thing...speak of it...speak of what your experience is right now.

"What a shame" triggers me...it's a judgment. What isn't right now, isn't right now. It was, can be again. Isn't right now. This was how I missed my own grieving process and kept reliving that which I DID NOT WANT to experience.

I hid behind these judgments...labeling them, not understanding.

You are grieving loss...from your expectations, your dreams, your self and your marriage. Each action isn't loss...because you can do it yourself until she chooses or not.

The more aware you are of yourself, what you really do inside (for if you're judging others', you are certainly judging yourself...which hurts, btw...adds to your pain and ups your urge to stop feeling pain NOW! Hey, look...your feelings are coming from you...check 'em out. They're valid and real...and trying again and again like desperate messengers to deliver the information they are.)

Answering our own doors, sorta. Amazing. Some of those are deliveries from when you were a boy and a teen, even. I think you got some intense tipping to do, Dino.



LA

Lildoggie,

Thank you for reading and trying something new. That's good self-care, too. I know you're hurting a lot, over a long period...be good to yourself in healthy ways and you will find more about yourself you didn't know.

Trust in advance you are already stronger, smarter, more dedicated and braver than you think you are today. It's true.

LA

Hey LA, and please just call me Lil
thank you for the response with my name in it, or I might have missed it. It reminded me that I havent done it yet today.
Aaah, I feel better now.

Having several epithanies today. I feel good.
Hope you do too.

LA
Thanks... we seem to get plenty of RC. Really do enjoy the time together. UA is another story. We've done a few things alone but both parties have to be willing. She is not. As of now, we don't have a marriage from my POV. I'm hoping that some of the interaction between us is having a positive impact on her but everytime we sit to have a R talk, I am once again hit with reality.
There isn't any regulation saying they have to inform anyone. The results of any legal procedings are posted on a monthly blotter for each base but since he's at a different base, i don't see it. Truthfully, what happens with him has no bearing on me or us. I could really care less. He could disappear and it wouldn't change our situation a bit.
Any sure fire way to handle this? If I knew how to do it, this wouldn't be a problem. I understand the concept, just have a huge problem being consistent. I'm banking that it gets better with time and effort. LA, I can't seem to find the right place for me. I think I'm still in the denial stage, not accepting what is reality. Probably why I'm in such turmoil. Like someone who is told they won't walk again, there's always hope, but reality is there in that wheelchair.
It's hard to define what my reality is but I'll try. I'm living with a person who used to be my wife. I don't know if she wants to stay married to me because she doesn't know if she wants to stay married to me. I do not know her, I thought I did but I was sorely mistaken. We are still together, she is here. She has no other option right now, neither do I. I want to stay married to her. I feel like crap everyday. I am obssessed with her and our marriage, i can think of nothing else. I'm doing better than I give myself credit for. She tells me I'm the perfect husband/father, still doesn't know if she wants to stay with me. We have no physical relationship, at all. I'm not ready to give up. Much of what you've said is a little over my head LA. Very deep. I do know this, I torture myself but I can't help it. I think I'm getting better and then I fall apart again. I want to kiss her sometimes and I do, then I feel like crap because she doesn't recip. I convey this to her, she says to do what I feel. I try not to expect anything but it all hurts, I've not progressed as much as I thought. She never says she loves me, no matter how I try to accept that as reality, I can't and it hurts like heck. I read into everything, every act, every breath, every step. I recognize it but am powerless it seems, sometimes. I know the power of hatred and I'm afraid of it. Afraid that my strength will wane and hatred will protect me from pain as it has done so many times. Feels good to speak of it, keeps me aware.

We had a talk this weekend. Seems we are in no different a place than we were a month ago. She is uncommitted, says I have no idea what she is going through. Talks of her guilt, anger, she believes I'll never get past what's happened. Doesn't think she'll ever be able to accept what she's become, may never forgive herslef as she has never forgiven me. I ask her to talk to someone, she finally said she may, but doesn't see how it will help her. Says noone can make her heal inside. Keeps saying she needs to be by herself, wants to stay asleep and have no thoughts, period. She just doesn't understand, think things will work out naturally and if we fall back in love, then we do. She knows I won't be able to live like this forever but makes no concession to try. It's as if we're in a waiting game to see who will give up and end it. I tell her I will work at it until she walks away, she tells me she doesn't need that pressure, tell me not to try to do anything, just be myself, act normal. What does act normal mean? Be happy she says, my sadness puts presure on her she says and I'm the one saying sorry. She's much stronger than me and it scares me. She says she can live like this forever, says she's done it for years. Even says she's stay with me just to make sure I didn't fall apart, would stay with me if I asked her to, but wouldn't be the wife I want. Talked about our move, options, kids, school etc. Living arrangements, she still plans on living together until ??? I don't know what the trigger point is. I want to buy a house when I get back but now I can't commit to it. Reality is that we're still moving together as of now, depending on my assignment, her and the kids may go home to Arizona, we'll see. I say we should have a pretty good idea where our relationship is by the time we're leaving here, she gets upset because she says that just being here with her job and all the triggers of this place and that I shouldn't ask her to make a choice while she's still under emotional distress, like some magic wand is supposed to wave over us when we leave here. I explained to her that even if we hugged and kissed and vowed together to save our marriage, it would still take years, nothing magic is going to happen when we leave here. She seemed to take it in but who knows. I share all I've learned here on MB with her, she says she understands but none of it has effect on someone who is uncommitted. Told her i spoke with the kids about my sleeping separately, she was unaffected. I asked her if she has told anyone in her family about what she did, she said no, I asked if it would do us good to come clean to the family, she said they don't need to be stressed about our business. She believes everyone has the right to their own privacy. Very protective of hers, I believe this to be leftover post deployment stress. I really believe she hasn't reintegrated into her home reality yet. She was used to worrying only of herself for almost 8 months, the burdens of home and her A are too much for her, she isn't coping well. Neither am I. My only concern is to make it out of here emotionally intact, with our marriage still in a reparable state. That is now my only goal. This is going to be stressful.

I rambling so much right now. Not quite sure what we even discussed or if anything came of it. I share everything, she shares nothing, I don't know what she's going through and she won't tell me. She can have no doubt about my intentions and my reasoning for them. There is nothing I can do. I can only go day to day, my actions speak for themselves. I have to get a grip on my thoughts, they will be my downfall.
You're right about this, at times I just tell myself that I want the hurt to go away, no matter what it takes. How do you control feelings? Hurt, pain, anger? Are these really conscious choices we make? Do I hurt because I choose to? It makes sense but at the same time, why would anyone WANT to hurt? I think I understand but valid feelings are hard to counteract, as humans we feel. Judging others is easy to do but not easy to stop, especially in a situation like this. And yes, judging others does add to my pain, manufactures feelings out of something that is not there, not really. 20 yrs of routine are hard to counteract.
Please expand on this LA, I'm not quite sure where this leads...

It sounds to me like the only thing that's going to make a difference is for her to see a therapist, and possibly get on some anti-depressants. Everything is stagnant until she gets moving beyond this wall she's facing.

Cat

I think I have to agree with you. Our last talk was the first time she even mentioned the possibility of talking to ayone so that in itself is some kind of progress. Never mind that she bellyached about how it won't do any good. She doesn't believe that anyone can make her change how she feels, she's right on tha aspect, noone can "make" her do anything. But at least she's talking about it. Maybe after she talks about it for awhile she'll actually do it.

The picture is slowly coming into focus for me though. I'm a good husband and a great father. Our marriage wasn't that bad no matter what she says. I'm friggen devastated and don't know exactly how I'll get through all of this but I will. If she decides to walk away, she will be the loser but our whole family will pay the price. I don't believe she is ready to do that but it seems I didn't know her as well as I thought. Novemeber will be a telling month for our family. We'll see...

thanks cat

I speak to the kids on my own. Wife doesn't want to tell, wants to keep it from them. I just reassure them and let them know we're working on problems. She is not onboard with anything, don't kow if she ever will be. I'm slowly sharing my knowledge and thoughts with her. I'm hoping that she takes it in, processes it in a positive way. We'll see. If not, I will tell the kids myself, will have to if we split. I WILL do this everytime. Most times when I think about it, I can talk sense into myself. There are times that the feeling is just overwhelming, nothing specific, just a sadness. I know what you're saying LA, I miss it so much. I miss her. I know she doesn't make me. I know I'll be ok but I haven't gotten past the "want" yet. I'll get there, and I know I'm prolonging the pain but I have to find a healthy way to let it go. I don't want to lose my love for her LA, I don't. IWILL get to a healthy place that I can keep a balance between loving and waiting. Good analogy for DS, kind of puts things in perspective. I would beg my kids never to put themselves in the same position I've put myself into. But we never do it on purpose do we? We just kind of mutate into this needy, self-loathing form we used to call "me" and don't recognize it until it's too late. It's never too late though right? Just a difference in recovery time. I WILL FIND THE BOUNDARY BETWEEN US, WE ARE ONE MADE UP OF TWO, TOGETHER, YET SEPARATE. She was so much a part of everything I did. I waited 7 months for her return and someone else showed up. I miss my wife. She's been gone for 14 months now, 7 away, 7 here. 20 yrs of habit has to be dealt with. I'm GOING TO BREAK FREE OF THIS BY CONSCIOUS THOUGHT I AM TAKING CARE of MY kids the best I can. They know they can come to me about anything. They also know mom is in a different place. I ask them to be patient. As parents, we are not changed in behavior. We still act as a team and would never undermine the others efforts for anything. One day they will know the truth, hopefully it's under good circumstances with a happy ending.

LA, I can't begin to express my gratitude for the time you take to help me. I look forward to your words more than you know. I'm caught in a storm right now and you're helping to keep me afloat. Hope hurts, wishing stings, expecting is just plain painful. Reality can be a tough pill but I guess it can help too can't it.

Thanks again LA

Dino,

You said you're having difficult with reality. Totally understandable. Our brains really do not know the difference. That's focus and limits, I think, to get there when you're in pain time.

So...here's your plan for right now...

First, do Yoda (no, you don't have to breathe and stretch)..."There is no try" is the truth. Humans do and don't do. Or, if you prefer another way, "To try is to lie." And that's lying to yourself, btw.

So, go back over your last post and each "try" say "I do" or "I don't." It's a wonderful exercise of getting into a reality mindset. Tells your brain that you know you do and don't do. You are doing. You are being. You really are. That's reality. Not just yours.

After revising your last post to yourself (and if you wanna summarize in another post to solidify this truth, feel free to do so. Our brains pay attention to what we repeat...which is why when crisis hits, we tell our brains "Think A-related stuff all the time." And for that initial DDay comprehension time, which to our fears feels life threatening, that's essential. You are many months past that, in a chosen limbo for right now...don't stay in crisis state--we aren't built for it.

So tell your brain, "I want awareness, right now, in the present. I want to be alert and highly aware of right now...not the past or the future." Again, takes repetition.

Next, state your choices aloud. "I am choosing to not tell my kids the truth." That's ownership, not a condemnation. Again, that hugs the truth and differentiates it from her truth...her choice to not tell. To protect...like she kept the truth from you and everyone about her choice to have an affair. Your choices are fine as long as you own them for what they are...and not open-ended (which is fantasy-minded). "I will tell the kids the truth on November 25th at 5pm and I will explain why I withheld the truth from them at that time, as well."

See, that's not living in the future. That's goal setting...solid choice as to what you're doing right now or not. And that explanation you already have because you're already making the choice. Write it down...read it and see it. I think this will relieve some of your obsessing and looping...gripping reality does that.

Use this truth of do and not do. "My wife is married to me." She is. "I am married to my wife." You are. "Our union remains a union." It does.

When you indulge your obsessive thoughts with DJs like "This isn't a marriage" catch yourself and say, "That's not reality. We are married. Our marriage is real." Then go further to capture what you really mean underneath the fantasy "I miss our old marriage, the way we were with each other before my A." If that's what you're saying, then state it that way. Your experience right now is valid...it's real. Up to you to not hide within DJs what you're really experiencing and what you're not.

Or it might be, "I think I am hurting right now from knowing more and believing we can have this awesome marriage, which we haven't even experienced yet and fearing it won't happen. No redemption possibility for you or for me."

Again...statements...knowing you isn't scary. You're not. You sure may treat your stuff like you are...afraid of more pain, more fear, more anger...heck, your signals are already on tilt, how much more can there really be?

Dig in and feast on who you are, where your signals are coming from (find those DJs and state them...catch them red-handed and say to brain, See? This isn't what I want. This is not who I am).

Since you've consciously chosen this hang-time, then I urge you again to take your focus off of expected/desired response of others. Period. Nobody else but you. "I'm choosing to kiss my wife goodbye." Be fully present and aware...and you will experience affection and attention from your choice to kiss her...not based on her possible response.

Same for all your acts of love..."I choose to love my wife and act from it right now." You can catch yourself straying when you hear in your thoughts, "You"...any "You" statements towards her. Let that be your signal to catch the straying focus and rope it back.

From another thread, I recently discovered that my focus really doesn't escape me...it gets pushed into it's old stomping grounds (on others) by resentment. Resentment actually pushes it over without me feeling it...so I can nurture my own resentment. How 'bout that?

I am deeply grateful for MB, for all posters sharing their stuff, acting from their honesty and acting bravely. Enhances my life, continues my healing and helping my marriage. What I shared with you I can spiral into even today...from DH doing/not doing something...that's how fast my focus can shift...might be menopause.



Okay...it's my own habit of a lifetime telling myself "Others cause me pain. Others control my pain. Others cure my pain." Then who the heck's pain is it, really?

LOL

LA

LA, this was a quote off of another thread I was reading. Couldn't fit us any better, just thought I'd share it with you. Sometimes I feel very ashamed for not telling my kids the "brutal" truth but I also want to protect my wife. I'm not quite sure how to put it. The quote was accurate except the recovery part, I would like that part to be prophecy for us. I shame myself with statements like that, childish rantings really. I know we're still married, i know reality is that it's no where near over yet, much is left to do no matter what direction we go. Wishful, foolish thinking bring on those statements, crying and regret, self-pity and anger all rolled into one brain. I do own that decision, for myself. I will tell my kids the full truth if we decide to split, I will also share with them my transgressions of the past, I will do that anyway. I'll use this everyday, thank you. Another good tool for me, I can use all the tools I can get. This is my main downfall, expectations are like snakes in the grass, the grass looks so nice so you take your shoes off and walk on bare feet, BAM!! Snakebite, only difference is that the snake belongs to you and you knew it was there and chose to walk bare footed anyway. I choose to love my wife, whether she likes it or not. I choose not to let her reaction to that love matter to me.How appropriate. How very poignant for what I experience everyday. Pain, generated by me, blamed on someone else? Emotional pain is just brainwaves right? Even physical pain can be controlled, although I'm much better at that.

Once again LA, you've managed to help my next few days a be little easier. Like much of the things I've learned from MB, I know what needs to be done, just had to read it to be able to see it. Kind of like putting a bike together, I'm pretty sure I can recognize all the parts, but now that I have the manual, I feel really confident about doing it. I'll update that last post, I'm curious about what I wrote because I can't seem to remember. I'll also keep my head straight thanks to you.

Thanks LA

Nothing big, just a good quote I wanted to have on my thread and to share with those who read it.

ciao

Dino,


Got it. In my prayers for you both to get to thriving through NC so Recovery can begin. Absolutely.

Brutal truth...is in the details. I wasn't recommending any details. Just ownership, "Five years ago I had an A. I harmed your mother, you guys and my marriage. I harmed myself. Last year, your mother had an A. We are both committed to recovering our marriage and working through all the pain, destruction and disconnection resulting from both of our choices."

No details. I didn't think to say that until you quoted it. See, teens already know she's had A, btw. I don't know why you assume they don't know...like you, they don't know if she's continuing it, saving money to leave them, going to the other guy or finding a new guy. They just know something really big has happened...their mother was in trouble with her work, you're hurting a whole lot...and maybe they did something to drive her away from the family. Children have emotional sonar with their parents. They know in detail what your frustration, helplessness, hurt, fears and joy look like. They've studied you...for you were the first to name these things, demonstrate and example them so they knew them in themselves.

I understand you want to protect the image of your wife as their mother in their eyes. Do you fear they will change in their love for their mother? For you? Do you think less of them than you do of yourself...for you know and you choose to love her, anyway. They don't really have a choice...that's my experience in this life...the parental bond is unbreakable, even when it is terribly destructive and repeatedly abusive. God's design, not mine. Not true for partnering, is true for our parents...and our children. They may go through growing times when we don't even want to know them...we love them, anyway.

Amazing how we think we're protecting (controlling) one image and don't see where we are negating active, real forgiveness because we're looking at it one way, not all ways. We can cause more harm when we try to protect others of a certain age...and your two teens can know and forgive, anyway. Why? Because of God's design.

Your WW can not only be not divorced, not lose everything, split up her family...she can be loved, anyway, by her BH and her children. Tremendous grace in our lives, unless you want to cut it out.

You have to process your own grief...you can process family grief as a family, marital grief as a team...or you can protect others from the truth of actions, and later they will find out anyway, as you have told them--the truth always comes to light. Not our truth...the truth does.

This is for you to ponder--not me forcing my POV. I understand you've decided to only tell them the truth if you divorce. I accept your choices right now...they can change as you know more, have more clarity, less reactivity and not choose from a feeling. You can choose to know where that feeling is coming from, what beliefs you have, and if they are valid and in line with what you've already taught your children or not.

We teach our kids a lot of which we don't do ourselves, when push comes to shove. Makes a world of difference to be shown, not told, too. We grow as a family by each growing individually from our code.

We don't do it overnight, either.

When I learned how destructive DJs were to relationships, I saw where they were also destructive to my children...assuming who they are, what they wanted to know, didn't want to know...showed me how disrespectful I was of them, often treating them reactively as if they were younger than they are today...and I still fight my assumptions from experiencing them before, routinely. I fight that in myself with my DH. We have two decades...living with my kids and husband longer than I lived with my family of origin (FOO).

What is your payoff in shaming yourself and is it a real payoff? I found I regularly lived in shame and so I shamed others, too. I did it through comparison, judgment and DJs. Breaking the shame was essential and only possible for me from my DH's infidelity. Like the ultimate shame for me, somehow. Had to see the bludgeon of shame in my hand, though, in my head...another snake in my grass as you say...to understand and free myself of a shame habit, which wasn't really mine to begin with.

Feels awesome, Dino.


Are you saying that you are at times wishful of not being married, hence the statement? That would make a world of sense, wouldn't it? Reasonable even. "I wish this wasn't real." That's good to know...no shame in that...it's a comforting fantasy kicking your heart. Take its shoes off. Foolish? What is foolish to you? And are you saying from that thinking comes those emotions--self-pity, anger...or that they cause you to think those things?


When you're in Recovery, building a new, thriving marriage, her feelings of love and being loved will matter. They are half your marriage. And your partner matters. Won't affect for a second your choice to love her not. Will definitely affect your love bank. Two separate things. It's like you're getting practice hearing and knowing her stuff as hers...fantasy or reality based doesn't matter...it's her stuff. In Recovery, that respect continues...only with recommitment, you get to dialogue and POJA. Right now, big acceptance that her feelings really are coming from her, about her, from her own thinking.

Ahhh...just like yours are yours. Which is great to know...your actions aren't dependent on her beliefs, mood, or perceptions...for you cannot control, ever, where her thoughts dwell.

How was it for you when your thoughts dwelled outside your marriage? And then when they dwelled on your guilt, or when they do on your shame right now? Where your thoughts dwell, there is your treasure...tells your brain where you want to dwell, your highest priority. It's how we really can put resentment, entitlement, anger, anything ahead of our marriage...look out for those snakes in your grass. They've been there all along...time to tame them...say, "I know you're a part of me. I'm just not going to use you to bite others or myself anymore, 'k?"

Tools with fangs.

Think about them as tools with fangs for a moment...tools of false manipulation, control, cause, cure, getting love from, out of, changing others...have you used those tools? And now, you're laying them down...for what you used on others, you've been using on yourself. Adding to your pain. Lay them down...they weren't real...you created those tools, took them on, when you were like...I dunno...four years old? You want desperately for your WW to get out of fantasy...see where your own is, too...use this time for seeing really what tool you reach for automatically. And smile, then lay it down.

We love ourselves to healing from knowing more about ourselves, how marriages work, how relationships work. We guard our weaknesses as an act of love and honor...not so we won't be bad or wrong. We learn to trust ourselves from repeatedly acting with awareness from love and respect...and we make new automatics...even making doing the right thing an automatic. We won't get to blind trust...for blindness is what we did when we self-deceived (like thinking DJs were the truth, were reality)...we know self-deception (denial) in small, limited qualities is healthy...when facing deep crisis (death, divorce)...saying, "This can't be" for a short time is essential to grieving...first step...we just kept using that tool a lot longer.

I look forward to you redoing your previous post with "I do/I don'ts" instead of try. I found it very healing and affirming...lemme know your experience, 'k?


Our pain comes from us, generated from our beliefs...it's real, and it really hurts. We believe in the sanctity of marriage, so betrayal hurts when we discover it, and continues as it continues. No fresh wound can heal when it's continually reinjured. Doesn't mean we'll die of it...though that may look tempting at times. Means we didn't see the wound's first strike...we can protect it from the next and next through our own choices. I believe we double our pain through our wishfulness...not foolish...just a tool, again, used against us and others to an extreme. So I believe we can halve our pain right now by getting the signal, tracing it to the beliefs its coming from and know it's not forever, just right now, and often, there's a belief sitting there from before we had any adult experiences.

Beliefs are not our wishfulness...we don't wish we believed, really...we choose to a belief and live from it. They are powerful...have flip sides...a belief cannot be true for us only one-way...both sides must be what we believe.

When we see others as at fault for what is within us, we negate we are...and feel even more abandoned, powerless, done to...what your WW was attack your marriage, your union. Step out and see her not doing to you right now...or not doing for you...see her as breaking her vows to the union daily. And know what she does to the union, she also does to herself. She isn't loving, understanding, acting from either in herself, either.

Hope that helps. And look to see where, if you're into blame (it's fantasy), you're taking too much so you can feel more weight in your existence, more false power. You're only responsible for you...honestly, God's design...and ownership is real, blame is false. I believe believing you can control your emotions brought you to right here, right now...and I would borrow Dr. Phil's famous phrase, "How's that working for you?"

If we attempt to control, change and not feel...then we are actively thwarting our signals to our own selves...letting us know what we're really thinking and believing, choosing to perceive and view. How in the world would that be in God's design and purpose to have an intimate relationship with us? What, we amp up loving feelings for him and squelch the ones we don't want to feel? Real relationships have real feelings...as information. Our own gauge of, "How's that thinking working for me?" That's our responsibility, getting that information...what it means...what its signalling us...like a filled love bank...when you feel a lot of loving feelings...it's YOUR bank...you let the deposits in and made some yourself. Says, "Hey, I'm made of love and loving"...and then you KNOW you're already loved fully and well. Those feelings drop off, love bank falls...look first to what you're doing, if you're robbing yourself, stopped acting from love and began acting to GET love (which tells self you aren't loved, doesn't it?)...great reality check.

Physical pain can be from emotional pain, too...and mental anguish...and spiritual disownment. When we separate ourselves, we feel it in all of us...if you separate Affection into just physical touch, you lose affection within words (audible), taste (an act of service), sight (a smile), even a smell (the phermones of your loved ones...I'm thinking of my sweaty sons when they bumped my shoulder and smiled)...see where you may be cutting out when your wishfulness thinks cutting off is safe.

And no wonder we look for quick-fixes and overnight cures...Ibruprofen can mask your sore shoulder, your arthritic knee...know it only relieves the sympton, does not cure the cause...which what you're looking at right now. To truly understand and know where you cause, control and cure within yourself...so you don't mask.

LA

I never thought of this, I still see both of them as my little babies. My heart is breaking right now. My wife and I will sit them down sometime and speak with them. The kids are one of the few things that we have a POJA on. No LA, I've never wished I wasn't married. I was just commenting on why I make those childish remarks. Saying that this isn't a marriage is just a selfish justification to think bad things. i never feel foolish for having the feelings, they are real. What's foolish is reacting to them because of what is not real. It's ok to feel sad, hurt, regret. But I need to use them as you said, to find the cause and act on that. True, but we are NOT in recovery yet. I'm just showing her my stuff. Letting her see my commitment, that I am not acting on reward. If we were in recovery, she would care about the effect her actions have on me. I just DJ'd didn't I? Actually, she does care about the effects she has on me. She has told me that she's afraid that any physical contact on her part may be miscontrued by me as a signal of recovery, that everything is now ok and she says she doesn't want to give me false security. I respect that. I WILL take her actions at face value. She has been a little more affectionate the last 2 days, why? Does it matter? She has hugged me and last night she came downstairs and slept with me, she was gone when I woke but she let me put my arm around her and lay next to her. I felt so good this morning. Why better today than any other day? Our sitch is the same from my POV. These are all questions I need to answer. Wow, like a slap in the face. This is what happened to me! I kept acting to get love and not from love. My self esteem plummeted, I became bitter because I felt I wasn't loved, but I wasn't loving myself either. I became jealous, couldn't understand how she couldn't love me better. I was disrespecting myself by feeling that only her love could make me worthy of love....wow. She loved me then as she loves me now. I pushed her away from me with my disrespect not only for her but for myself. I believe this is where she says that I have "lost" myself and that I don't know who I am anymore. Says that my confidence is one of the things that attracted her to me in the first place. I have alot of work to do. I have backed myself into a dark corner on my own.

I believe I have deciphered the underlying theme of many of your posts LA. I've read them over and over and it's always been just at my finger tips, but the cryptic and stylish way you present things baited my mind not to jump to conclusions.

No one person anywhere is strong enough to control my thoughts, emotions, feelings, beliefs or anything else that is mine. Some can affect (I choose who), but none can control.

My actions are mine. I choose what I do, what I accept. Alot of old filth and grime to dig through though. Habitual use of those fanged tools is hard to break, awareness was my first step. I took that first step when I first read the MB principles. Many things are lumped together right now for me. Slowly they are being grouped into manageable sections with your help and others here. Gosh it seems so simple. Recognize the bad thoughts as a signal to defend myself from their destructive ways. Do I have that right? Know that they're there but don't allow them to affect my actions? Sounds like a good exercise for me, more work, less thinking.

Thanks again LA

You know what you sound like you would benefit from? Finding a master of meditation who will train you to redirect your thoughts to find 'the truth.' You're in London, right? There must be a lot of people who deal with that there. You sound like you're right on the verge of that kind of breakthrough you get with meditation; trying it just might help you reach your epiphany.

I have a book someone here recommended called Emotional Alchemy, which is really good about that kind of thing. I highly recommend it.

cat

What exactly is the "truth" that I'm missing? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truly intersted in your thoughts. Is there something I haven't thought about?

The only thing that I am absolutely sure of is that for the next 4 months, my hands are tied. My truth is that I am an emotional wreck and I have yet to find the way to make my mind right. I have this overwhelming feeling that my life is going to come crashing down in november. We'll see.

Well, in more ethereal terms, the truth would be your core essence, the truth about you that has nothing to do with any earthly goings on - the truth that you are human being, as valued as any other human being who has ever been born, and that your truth is amazing and miraculous. Oy, LA says this stuff much better!

When I'm having a bad time, I use this philosophy to step back from 'me' and all its trouble and baggage, and look at 'real me' in perspective to the whole world, and my issues don't seem so bad. Kind of like counting your blessings. I'm alive; I'm not sick; I have the capacity to make a difference in this world somehow (just have to figure what it is); I HAVE made a difference for some people; I live in a great country; I have the option to move anywhere in the world and start over if I want; I could go back to school and learn to be a landscape designer like I really want, if I choose to; etc.

Kind of like when I say divorce isn't death. Yes, it hurts you to the core. It may make you want to die. But it isn't death. Death is the ultimate punishment/result, so anything short of that is you getting another chance to wake up the next day and find a new future for yourself.

That's what meditation can help you find - that peace of mind, the truth of you in this world, taking you out of the emotion you're in and moving you over to the thoughts. Hope that makes sense.

The book I recommended is all about mindfulness, which is what I think you could benefit from. Here's some info on mindfulness and meditation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness

I spend most of my days wondering how we got to this point. Dissecting, poking, investigating. Maybe I'm just pig headed but no matter how subjectively I look at things, I still can't figure that our marriage got this bad. Bad enough to do something as horrible as she did. I think about it alot and I keep coming to the same conclusion, IT DIDN'T GET THAT BAD!

I really enjoyed my 23 yrs in the military but now I can't stand it. My WW affair is the biggest reason. The war that's going on and the family separation it causes, it's like a cancer. It's not an excuse to do wrong and she has no excuse for what she did, but if she had not been forced to be away for so long, this wouldn't have happened. Actually, I don't know that, but that's what I believe so that is my reality. If she had been home with me, we could have done something different, more civil, more constructive. She's different now. Like a shadow is over her, she is dying inside and I can't help. She made some choices in a different environment, not a reality now, but a reality for her at the time. Me and the kids were on the other side of the world, we were just voices on the phone, email readings, easy to be dishonest when you don't have to look into anyones eyes, when you don't have to see what you are hurting, what you are giving up, what you are losing. Easy to justify doing wrong when reality isn't staring you in the face.

My wife is a casualty of war. It remains to be seen if our marriage suffers the same fate, if my kids join the many that have lost because of this war and wars past. I can hardly stand to watch the news, about Afganistan or any other thing that happens over there. I am not proud to wear this uniform anymore, just me of course, but it feels dirty. I used to be so proud of her, actually I still am, she made a terrible mistake, one that I hope to forgive over time. I'm proud of the things she's accomplished over the years. I am saddened that when she leaves, there will be no celebration, no looking back at a stellar career. We will see only heartache. There will be no laughing and crying and smiling for all the good memories. Only the memories of what slammed the door on a heroes goodbye.

Humans are crazy creatures. Very self centered and self serving if given the chance. I used to not think that of my wife, she only gave, would never break. She is human after all, flawed as I am. Selfish as I was. Why do I attach so much of my value to her? What has happened over the last few years that has me doing that? I never used to be like that. I honestly didn't used to give a damn what she thought about anything, and she loved me for it. Such conflicting signals for a young man. As I grew older, I became more attuned to her needs, changed my behaviors, helped more, stayed home more. Became attached, enmeshed, one. Now I can't break free of it, not yet anyway. I'm working on it, getting better.

After everything I've learned and everything I have to work on yet, I've still not come up with the answer to one thing; how do I keep from being so sad about this whole thing? All the circumstances surrounding what has happened mean little to me really, think about them sometimes, I think about the A sometimes, even manage to picture in my head the way her face looked when she was with him, how she smelled or laughed or touched him. I picture her looking at him the way she used to look at me years ago. It hurts deeply when I do that, but it goes away fast. But the sadness never goes away. Like a low hum that vibrates my soul, all day, everyday. From the time I wake until the minute I slip into sleep. I sleep fine now. Still not enough but I never have gotten enough sleep. Sadness that clings to me. Sadness that something wrong has happened and needs to be righted. It's hard to explain, I was sad when I had to put my dog to sleep and nothing could prevent that, same feeling about this. It will get better with time I think. It has already gotten better over the last few months, mostly because I can keep my mind occupied easier than before. I still cry everyday, everyday. She knows it, it hurts her but I cry anyway, it hurts but it feels good at the same time. Feels good because I like knowing that I care that much about her. I would hate to find out that after 20 yrs, I could find it easy to walk away. Sometimes I cry for things that aren't real. I'll admit that I still find myself expecting, foretelling, reminiscing. All of which make me sad but at least I recognize when I'm doing it now. Like most people, I get triggered by alot of things, radio songs mostly. I wonder if she listens to the same song about the girl leaving her man because he hurt her so, and I wonder if she sings it out while she drives, thinking about how she's leaving me. Stupid, but I do it. I am so emotional now, it's like we swtiched bodies and minds. She's so hard and I'm such a wuss. I cry at everything, she makes fun of me but we laugh. It's like I finally see all the wonderful things I've missed and it makes me sad, but happy at the same time.

I hold hope for my baby though. I believe she will make the right choices, I think she will choose in favor of the family and for us. Maybe I'm in the BS fog. I don't know. Sometimes I picture her as this sneaky , coniving, lying woman whos spends every minute trying to talk to him, to sneak a minute on the phone, or a minute on the email. Those kinds of thoughts drain me, make me sick, I wish I would never have them again. I feel myself wanting to snoop around but I stop and think to myself, why? Why? Has she done anything to bring this action on? Have you caught her lying? No to all, she could be doing all these things, but in the end, they are her choices and I truly believe that it comes around. Kharma is around us. It happened to me, it happened to her. Murphy's law reigns supreme.

I will never think of her A as a blessing, never. I'd cut both my legs off if I could save both of us from what's happened in the last year. We can move on and be better from this. I've told her and I hope she can see the light. I made my mistakes, we made more to get past them. She made her mistakes and I don't want to make the same ones we made before. I hope she doesn't compound her mistakes by making even more terrible ones by giving up our marriage for it. We can and should get through anything. We can do anything together, no matter how long it takes. But I can only do it by myself for so long, I cannot survive this marriage alone, it just doesn't work with only one person.

Fake it till you make it. Makes sense in ways only a BS can understand. She tells me she faked it for years, hurts real bad to hear that. Who knows whats real anymore. If I really did make her feel bad enough to have to fake it, I deserve to be punished, if she felt even half as bad as I feel because of me, I should be punished. Anyway, just a day of reflection, not a bad day. I cried my usual tears, nothing too bad, just an outlet. I wonder about her, what she's thinking, if she thinks of me like I think of her. Should a 42 yr old man still have these thoughts? That's how I feel about her, the same as I did in 1988 when I first kissed her. How did I let things get so messed up?

Nothing I can do about all that now. Where we go from here is all that's important. I have hopes and dreams. I'm not even sure if I really can get past what she did, but I'm down for a fight. I'll jump in and take some lumps. It's worth it. She's worth it. My kids and I are worth it, we as a family are worth it.

Ciao

Hi Dino!

I am just checking in to let you know that I am thinking of you and hoping you are doing well. From reading your last stream-of-consciousness post, I honestly do think you sound better now than you did even a few weeks ago. You seem more aware of your thoughts and feelings. Anyway, be good to yourself. It will still be months before your feelings settle down and you really know what's what. I agree that it is silly to ever call an affair a blessing ... it's a horrible event. It's a metaphorical massacre of your marriage. It's right and proper that you feel as sad as you do, but it's also right and proper that you accept what's happened (not accepting isn't going to make it go away, it'll just sap your energy) and learn what lessons you need to in order to prevent it from happening again. I don't know ... maybe you need a little more time to give you perspective before you're really able to make an accurate survey and can see what mistakes were made and what you could have done better.

Sometimes the wisest thing you can do is admit what you don't know ... LOL!

So, I got this book "Facing love addiction", LA suggested it to me. I'm about 3/4 through it and much of it is very interesting. There is alot that rings true for me, things that I already knew. It helps sometimes to actually read what you feel, kind of solidifies things you maybe thought were true but were unsure of because of the turmoil you've been going through since all this stuff began. I always treat my books as sort of research projects, I read and highlight and go back to reread the things that are important to me.

Anyway, little things happen along the path that open your eyes. Imagine that you're holding a flashlight in a dark room and the end is flat on the ground. There is very little light escaping the sides. As you progress, you begin to pull the light further and further away from the ground and the circle of light becomes bigger and bigger. As this light circle becomes bigger, you begin to see more and more as things come into your view, sometimes the things are good sometimes they are bad. Either way, you see things you didn't see before. Which brings me to my next point.

After reading through this book, some thoughts entered my mind that haven't been there since the beginning of this freakin nightmare. Slowly but surely I'm getting better, in my head and in my body. For the first time, i thought to myself, "what happens when I finally get my [censored] together and I figure out that I don't want to stay with her, that I don't want to forgive her". It kind of shocked me. I don't know if its just a feeling of revenge, or a defense mechanism, or it's a voice of reason finally speaking to me. I don't know. I already have enough on my mind, I really don't need anything else, but it was a little refreshing to tell you the truth. I guess it was a change from the usual depressing thoughts. I'm wondering if this is just a natural progression of feelings when someone goes through this situation? Don't get me wrong, I haven't changed my mind, I still want this to work out as bad as ever.

I am thinking about the actual A more than I ever have though. Not the physical aspect, but the emotional part of all of it. She stole something from us, something we can't get back. There will always be someone else out there that has part of something that was supposed to belong only to us. I'm not so sure I'll be ok with that. The way things are going, I'm not sure that her actions are going to help me be ok with that. I'm the only one that can say whether or not I'll get over it, but without her help, it will be impossible for me. The resentment I feel will be too much if she is unwilling to help. It may sound like I'm placing my burden on her but I'm not. I'm just being honest by saying that the resentment that is building up because of her lack of concern for my welfare will be stronger than my ability to get over this A. I can only do so much on my own and I have exceeded my own expectations really, I never would've thought I'd last this long. I'm not even close to giving up yet.

At the moment, I'm trying to detach myself from the relationship. In a healthy way. Just a way of stepping back and becoming an observer rather than an active part of the drama. It's helping me detach from the expectations and pain associated with all of that. It seems that the underlying theme for all of these "self help" books whether it's marriage, or addiction or self esteem, is that you have to see things from a healthy personal point of view before you can make any kind of decision or progress on anything. I'm starting to get there, things are falling into place I think, I'm not sure I like what I see but at least I'm getting somewhere. It kind of scares me, because all this time I've been screaming about how we can fix this and start over and save our marriage and become closer and all of that stuff, now the opposite thought is starting to creep in. "What if I finally get my head straight and figure out that she isn't what I want, that she won't make the grade, that I've been seeing something that really wasn't there?" Especially after reading about love addicts, I was never one before but I sure have turned myself into one with her. Snuggle, good to hear from you. I'm pretty sure I've accepted what's happened, I think that the acceptance is the source of my crying now. I still cry, most everyday I think. Just from the sense of sadness and loss of what we had. Nothing in particular. And I don't mind it really, helps me let things out.

Wife is doing well I think. I try not to decipher things with her, just observe. She is very nice to me most of the time. She is kind of rude sometimes but I think it's part of who she is now. I notice a fakeness in her I've only seen a couple of times before. Acting one way in public or with others and then being different when around me and the kids. Like I said, just observations. We get along good, still do things together with and without the kids. Still planning the move together, should find out where we might go on the 22nd. Still sleepig downstairs, I have no desire to go back upstairs although my back has been paying the price. It hasn't felt like this in months but it's tolerable. I'm not sure what would have to change for me to get back into our bed, I just know that the time for that isn't near. I sure would like to have some sex though, she's till sexy as heck. But I'm not sure I could deal with it really. I like to think I can separate sex from emotion but not this time, not that she's asked anyway, just talking. Anyway, 22 days until Hawaii, I can't wait.

Hope everyone is well, ciao....

Thank you, Dino, for reading the book and sharing your thoughts here.

Was a scary one for me to recommend. I remember well, though, the acceptance, confirmation and validation I felt reading it...and the parts where what I knew fit into other parts I didn't know, didn't recognize...didn't have words for to explain.

The flashlight analogy works very well for me, too. Has that observer position as other stuff is revealed by the light...so what I see (as you said, good or bad) is important because I can see it. Stuff which has been part of my periphery, affecting my experience.

I think it's totally reasonable to have thoughts to the opposite of your goal...for us to commit to recoverying our marriages, come what may, is extreme constant vulnerability (can seem like it)...and acknowledging you can choose differently is important, I think.

Would you consider it's part of your old self asserting for you to react to your feelings (the old way) again? If it doesn't feel good, make you happy, don't do it? That short-term fix not the long-term payoff? Again, we wouldn't seek instant gratification, protection, ending pain now if it didn't give us different feelings, would we?

Also a signal to share with your WW what you're thinking and feeling. I don't believe you can begin recovery (if she chooses, recommits, etc.) and suddenly switch gears...I believe we practice our O&H now, our acts of respect, predetermine our boundary enforcements and hold ourselves to them, practicing what we want most...and doing our acts of love with awareness...like obtaining and reading the book, talking about it...sharing and being shared with.

Otherwise, Recovery feels like getting hit by a truck.

I'm delighted you don't want to forgive her yet, actually. Working through forgiveness is like you working daily on your grief...it's a whole process, not an event. Forgiving her involves her owning what she did exactly (no longer excluding you by answering all your questions), why she did it (identifying her justifications and how she got into the fog); and why and how she won't do it again.

Then you gotta work on forgiving yourself, too.

Your head is already on straight...always has been. Where you dwell in your thoughts within your head, well, like your predilection for living in the future and the past...you might want to reconsider. When you are fully present, knowing what is happening now is truly now...would these thoughts be signals your fear is losing your love for your wife?

Thing for me about pain...I can take some intense physical pain...I have a healthy threshold...thing is, I can't take it for long...now, we both know we "take it" because we seriously don't have a choice...we survive and endure...I just find that something I handled well for three days at pain level 4, for instance, I flip out and refuse on Day 4 even at pain level 3. Duration matters to me...which is why I encourage posters to see where their thoughts dwell, to not extend or expand their own pain...see where they may be adding...because this isn't a four-day painfest...it's a marathon where we begin to run it already tired in 90-degree heat.

Staying present is essential...just for today, I will...I can...I believe...I perceive...I feel...

See if when you are fully present if you have those thoughts. If they come to mind, even then...or if they are silent. When you stand in the moment, look at your kids, your place, your feet in place, your smile, your sorrow, your life...for that one moment. And breathe.

LA

PS - After the book, you could stand in the moment and add these words, "I am" and "I am complete"...rinse. repeat.