I couldn't take things the way they are anymore! My H will probably hate me for the rest of time but I did what I had to do. I called Mia at work and called her every name in the "nasty word dictionary"!<P>Oh, yes, she tried to get a word in edgewise, about how my H was telling me the truth. About how their affair had been over for months. How she thought she was being sincere in appologizing to me here because I was refusing to talk with her. Hell, now everything seems to be MY FAULT! <P>I took such offense at her insisting for me to listen and believe my H that this relationship of theirs is over! Why am I being so crazy! H and his precious Mia have taken away my sanity, my self esteem, my self worth. How do you all "get over it"? I just can't. Plain and simple. I just can't. Even if I have a day where there is no argument of any type, I still "think" about it. I know from everything I've read here that I should be directly most of my anger at my H instead of Mia. I hate to admit that I primarily feel such hatred for her because I am downright jealous that she makes my H happy and I can't.<P>Yeah, Sweetpea will say that I'm "on the pity pot" again and she's right. I'm just so sick of it all with no indication of any kind that H is making any effort to help fix things. He doesn't want to.<P>Sorry for venting.

Tired Lady- I really understand what you are going through. I too can't seem to stop obsessing about the ow - everytime I see her car parked at H's office the rage is unbearable. I have been wanting to call ow for so many months but H freaked when I told him I was going to. (she works for him and won't get a new job) It doesn't sound like it made you feel any better to call her - did it? Did it help at all with making you feel you'd gained some control or regained some self esteem, dignity etc? I wish I could help you but all I can say is I can't take it anymore either and I am on the verge of doing something I may regret - I want revenge and feel I can't move on until she pays for destroying me and my family and gets out of out life.<BR>BTW - I saw from your profile we are "neighbors". What is your story? (none on your profile) Does your H work with ow?<p>[This message has been edited by Simone (edited October 15, 1999).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Hell, now everything seems to be MY FAULT!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It is.<P>Look, TL... you’re entitled to be angry, hurt and betrayed. What your H did(and what I did) was despicable. But you need to decide what you want to do. You have what so many people here would <B>kill</B> for: a contrite spouse who is willing to work with you on restoring your marriage. Either work with him, help him to know how to fix your marriage <B>with</B> you, or get out. Mia is currently the strong one in this little triangle, because <B>YOU</B> are giving her power over you. Use that energy to work on your marriage.<P>Hate and anger are no way to restore a marriage. We’ve had too many examples of that here. Don’t be another one.<BR>

Tired Lady--<P>Sometimes we just gotta do that thing we're NOT supposed to do. <P>So you blew off some steam at her. Forgive yourself for lashing out. And try not to do it again. Fault schmault...at this point, who cares whose fault it is, everybody's gotta get through the situation and you are certainly hurting right now.<P>I've forgotten -- are you in counseling?<P>Do you feel any better for having raked her over the coals by phone?

Simone: Thanks for at least validating that I am not alone in feeling the way I do.<P>WhoDat: Not sure if you know the whole story but I can tell you without any hesitation that H is NOT contrite, remorseful, or displaying any desire to "restore this marriage. <P>What should I have done here, thanked Mia profusely for giving my husband up?

Lucks - thanks for the reply. Yes I still go to counseling. My H has stopped going and refuses to go. H thinks I'm the only one who needs to go. (even though he's the infidel)<P>Did calling her make me feel better? I'm not sure either way. I don't have any regrets over what I did. She really could have been telling me the truth and it wouldn't have mattered. I did what I did for me.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> WhoDat: Not sure if you know the whole story but I can tell you without any hesitation that H is NOT contrite, remorseful, or displaying any desire to "restore this marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK... overstatement on my part, and apologies for it.<P>But he’s <B>there.</B> That’s more than a lot of people here have to work with.<BR>

TL,<P>You know how much I care about you, but this thing scares me to death. If the W contacts me at all at this point (even though it has been over for 4 months) I sware I'll have a nervous breakdown.<P>It hurts, it scares me, and it reminds me of the terrible mistake I made... I could cry right now.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

You said, "What should I have done, thanked Mia for giving my husband up?"<P>Well ... yes. DUH.<P>Like Whodat said, HE'S AT HOME WITH YOU! You are the one refusing to believe it's over .... you're the one that's still focusing on the affair and NOT the rebuilding.<P>You gotta gotta gotta stop all the lovebusting .... you're gonna HAVE to stop thinking about YOURSELF and think about your H and HIS needs.<P>Sorry. I know that's painful to hear when your whole life has been turned upside down, but if YOU WANT HIM BACK you better CHANGE YOUR ATTITUDE or GET OUT.<P>I can't make it any plainer to you. You refuse to believe him (love buster) you continue to throw it in his face (love buster) you continue to obsess over the OW -- WHO'S OUT OF HIS LIFE.<P>HELLO? Who is the crazy one here? Calm down and decide what you want!

Missed this the first time...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> What should I have done here, thanked Mia profusely for giving my husband up?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, you don’t do ANYTHING with her. That gives her power over you. If she’s as awful as you say(and I really have my doubts, but that’s another story), then she’s gotta be <B>loving</B> it that she’s got you so wound up.<P>Either work on it or don’t. Mia is <I>history,</I> and someone once told me that they call it history because it’s in the past. You’re living in the past... work for your future instead. <B>Learn</B> from the past and the mistakes made... “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”<BR><p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited October 15, 1999).]

WhoDat: He's here alright - in body only. For the kids. Not for me. He will find anything and everthing to amuse his free time so that it will never include any opportunity to be alone with me. So, yes he's in the house, but that's it. I sometimes wonder if he's just waiting for me to say "GET OUT" or for Mia to say, "COME OVER". Sucks doesn't it?<P>NB - Please explain to me what scares you about having a scorned wife call? I look at it like Mia should have known this may be a consequence of her "bad" choice. I didn't threaten her in any way. Just wanted her to know how very pissed off and hurt I am.

Warning... rant ahead...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He's here alright - in body only. For the kids. Not for me. He will find anything and everthing to amuse his free time so that it will never include any opportunity to be alone with me. So, yes he's in the house, but that's it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe you’d like to trade places with Chris, or Shattered, or any number of the people here who would <B>kill</B> for the opportunity you have?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I sometimes wonder if he's just waiting for me to say "GET OUT" or for Mia to say, "COME OVER". Sucks doesn't it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>*sigh*... so <B>say</B> it already. It’s the inevitable conclusion with this attitude you’ve got anyway.<BR>

It's been said before...forgive yourself and keep working towards trust and forgiveness. Gosh TL, this is soooo hard to do day after day. I too want to do what you did, but I don't. Not because I'm stronger or smarter and further along, probably because I'm chicken, I don't know. I do know that whne I emailed OW last May it scared her silly and I take a small amount of satisfaction in that.<P>Quit giving your power to Mia...she doesn't deserve it.<P>------------------<BR>Joan <P>"Turn your wounds into wisdom..." That really cool black gal who was on Oprah all summer.<BR>

TL,<P>If you had any idea of how much I have suffered, and am suffering... I do NOT condone my actions, or Mia's for that matter (as you know I never agreed with her coming here, for example)... but hear me..<P>I AM DYING INSIDE EVERY SECOND OF EVERY DAY<P>The ONLY thing that could make me feel worse would be to have to deal with the W of the OM. I am so close to a nervous breakdown, which I realize it from MY decision, but hey, pain is pain is pain. <P>I've heard from the W through nasty emails and every time I get an email with a noname I feel like I'm gonna lose it. I am not exaggerating. I can't take another thing!<P>This, BTW, is not your problem, but you asked, so this is truly how I feel.<P>Hugs, 'cause I know what you've been through, and there is caring here...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Maya: Sorry, but I couldn't thank an adulteress for doing "the right thing". It is up to me. I know. Even if I was the all american dream of a wife right now it wouldn't stop the constant thoughts I have about them. Honestly, I can see my H is on his own emotional rollercoaster ride. But my gut level instinct tells me his true "desire" is to be with her.<P>WhoDat - I guess when Mia posted here she got alot of sympathy about her "doing the right thing". Is that why you think she's not awful? You don't feel taking someone else's husband for themselves is an awful and selfish act in itself? Am I to accept all the blame for my H going along with it? <P>Sorry everyone - I know I am extremely angry and I'm really having one heck of a time moving forward. I'm still glad I can yell here.

Hey TL,<BR>I actually did call the OW & thank her for giving up my H, for having morals (yeah, right) for no longer seeing a married man.<P>But, whoops, H was lying that he wasn't seeing her...and she caught on quickly that I didn't know the affair was back on, so she lied to me as well. Although I did plant some doubt about the divorce being in progress (it wasn't then & isn't now).<P>What fun.<P><BR>Cheryl,<BR>Forgive yourself. All you can do is not go back to doing what you did. Move forward, no looking back.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P>

WhoDat, Joanie, NB - perhaps WhoDat is right<BR>I should just *sigh* and tell him to GET OUT! It would make both our lives less traumatic and H & Mia would get what they want.

In other words, TL, you're never gonna forgive her? Well prepare to be miserable for a very long time.<P>I know you can't fathom it, but we betrayers have alot of pain to deal with too. AND THAT INCLUDES YOUR H. If you love him, you won't want to see him in such pain and will want to do something to help him out.<P>And do you know how long it was BEFORE I was able to even LOOK in the direction of working on my marriage? Almost a YEAR. How long has it been for you all? <P>He's in WITHDRAWAL ... pure and simple. Be thankful for the fact that's HE THERE with you. The rest will come in time ... but it will NEVER come unless you change how YOU'RE looking at the situation.<P>The ball is in your court.<BR>

TL,<P>NOOOOOOOOOOO<P>They both say it's over... don't do that!!!<P>You can do this!!!!!!!!!!<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I guess when Mia posted here she got alot of sympathy about her "doing the right thing". Is that why you think she's not awful? You don't feel taking someone else's husband for themselves is an awful and selfish act in itself? Am I to accept all the blame for my H going along with it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Of course not. You have no responsibilities whatsoever for your H’s decision to have an affair. You <B>do</B> share responsibility with him for the state of your marriage, however.<P>FWIW, I think Mia was very wrong for posting here. This is <B>your</B> haven, and she should have respected that. But in her own way, she’s a screwed up as you are right now. I know... I lived that part. I had a nervous friggin’ breakdown after what I did. My W <B>hates</B> the OW... with good reason. But instead of empowering her, she’s chosen to work <B>with</B> me to make a better marriage. I wasn’t a <B>bad</B> person, any more than I think Mia is... or your H for that matter. Good people can make some very <B>VERY</B> bad choices in life. Mia tried to right that a little by posting here. Another bad move, IMO, but not indicative of any horns growing out of her head.<P>On the other hand, she may truly <B>be</B> a Dragon Lady. I just don’t know.<P><BR>In Harleyesque terms, here’s how I see your future... Your account in your H’s LoveBank, for whatever reasons, went into the red. That’s the main reason he went looking elsewhere. I don’t know why, and actually, it’s immaterial. But now, he’s home. Your account is still in the red, and you are <I>still making withdrawals!!!</I> Mia isn’t making any more deposits, but she’s not making any withdrawals, either. Soon enough, your withdrawals are going to <B>bankrupt</B> your account beyond any possibility of future solvency.<P>Think about something else... Maybe Mia and your H <B>have</B> been telling the truth; they’ve had no contact. But now she calls him crying, about how you won’t believe her, and called her up out of the blue to berate her. Cha-ching! Big withdrawal... you just slammed his “true love” (OK, I know that’s b.s, but at this point in time, the fantasy still has a hold of him). He feels the need to comfort her, because of what <B>you</B> did, and because she’s so distraught, she lets him. Affair resumes, because you felt the need to fan the flames.<P>You have the opportunity to help your H work through this, and you’re blowing it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Sorry everyone - I know I am extremely angry and I'm really having one heck of a time moving forward. I'm still glad I can yell here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Don’t be sorry! Yell <B>here,</B> but work on your marriage at home!!!<P>

TL,<BR>Venting is good, but it is best when it is done in a positive manner. I am not siding with Mia but from her post she sounded really remorseful for her part. She is not your H. If your H is not trying to rebuild your marriage then you should try that much harder to be the example of what you want him to be. <P>I know this seems like an insurmountable task but it can be done. I am doing everything that is pleasant to my W, the betrayer. I see her getting closer in little ways that were there in the beginning. She doesn't realize that she is doing it because she is trying to cntrol the situation. She does not understand that God is in control and that she hasn't truly given her life over to Him. Once she does give her life to Him she will be able to find peace in the midst of the storm. The pain won't go away until Jesus comes again and we have new bodies that won't decay.<P>MONDO HUG!!! I truly feel your rage because I am beginning to get over mine. I had never experienced rage until about 6 months ago when affair # 8 started.<P>God be with you and your family. I am continuing to pray for you.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Tired lady....If you are in that much pain..you have got to take action. I don't know your situation, if you have kids, if you're in counseling, etc, but it sounds like you need a break. Even if it's just for a day or two, go visit a friend, do something to help regain your perspective on this whole thing. Your entire life, breath and being has been over taken by this. When you are in that position, your perspective isn't clear, and you can't think rationally. CUT YOURSELF SOME SLACK ! ! Don't try to rush the healing...continue to work towards that goal, or course, but if you try to do too much too fast, you end up right where you are. Love yourself, take care of yourself...help yourself get you mind to a place where it can start to feel comfort and heal.

Tired Lady<P>You are making ME tired! If you read the post that I wrote today on 2Sad's thread, you will see that OM's wife did the same thing to me. She started harassing me after I had ended it - three months after it was over. She continued for five months. IT WAS OVER!! I never contacted him EVER during that entire time. It wasn't easy for me or him, but I stuck to my guns. FINALLY after five months of putting up with her, I contacted him. She ended up e-mailing me and asked me to call her. When I did, she read me the riot act, every name in the book, accused me of still being in love with him and sending him that email to get him back. NOT TRUE. I hadn't spoken, emailed, phoned, nothing from July to February - yet she refused to believe it. What is a person supposed to do?<P>I agree that I messed up big time, just like Mia. But everybody screws up. I believe Mia at this point. I think you were wrong to do that.

Tired Lady<P>You are making ME tired! If you read the post that I wrote today on 2Sad's thread, you will see that OM's wife did the same thing to me. She started harassing me after I had ended it - three months after it was over. She continued for five months. IT WAS OVER!! I never contacted him EVER during that entire time. It wasn't easy for me or him, but I stuck to my guns. FINALLY after five months of putting up with her, I contacted him. She ended up e-mailing me and asked me to call her. When I did, she read me the riot act, every name in the book, accused me of still being in love with him and sending him that email to get him back. NOT TRUE. I hadn't spoken, emailed, phoned, nothing from July to February - yet she refused to believe it. What is a person supposed to do?<P>I agree that I messed up big time, just like Mia. But everybody screws up. I believe Mia at this point. I think you were wrong to do that.

new beginning or anyone else - It struck me when you said you'd "have a nervous breakdown" if the betrayed W contacted you and you hated getting an email from her. Well this is exactly the effect I want to have on the ow - I want her to know and feel the pain and destruction she has caused. Instead she struts around like f---ing princess and remains on our payroll. Anyway, new beginning, your post has made me think it would be a good thing for me to contact ow. Somehow I believe I cannot move forward in this healing and rebuilding journey until I at least do that. It would be best if she were just out of our lives but that is not going to happen.

simone,<P>I've been betrayed, and I understand your pain and frustration. All I'm saying is that not all betraying woman are f*cking princesses strutting their stuff around... and in fact, I am so NOT like that. My affair is long over, and in fact was over as soon as I slept with him once. I ruined 20 yrs. of marriage with a 3 mo. affair. IT WAS A MISTAKE AND I AM PAYING FOR IT, BELIEVE ME.<P>I'm in a LOT of pain, and I'm sure that makes you happy. <P>If my post makes you want to contact the OW, I'm sorry. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Well, thank you all for your candidness with your responses. I, however, feel like Simone. I want Mia to have a nervous breakdown. Yes it sounds like I'm an unfeeling, insensitive person, and maybe at this point I am. If Mia were to be choking on a piece of meat and I was the only one to help with the hiemlich manuver, I'd walk away. Cold? Yes. But sorry folks, in answer to Maya's question about forgiveness - No, Maya, I will NEVER forgive her for her affair with my husband.

Tired Lady...<P>I was betrayed back in Jan/Feb. I DID call that OW, right in front of my H. Before I called her, I thought long & hard about what I would tell her. I didn't give her a chance to even talk and I called her exactly what I thought of her.<P>I don't have any regrets and I have that little satisfaction of letting her know what I thought of her whoredom. I could care less how she felt after I called her. I will never forgive her for her intrusion into my marriage. Why should I? She knew exactly what she was doing and still consciously did it. She deserves to be told exactly what she is!<P>BTW...my H & I are recovering nicely.<P>p.s. I have a feeling that many on this MB site wouldn't agree with what I did, but I did it for ME, and no one else.

TL, I'm right with you on that boat I'm afraid. I would like nothing more than to hurt the OW, and have to constantly restrain myself from doing so.<P>But it doesn't help. <P>And about forgiving, I don't think you have to forgive Mia. That doesn't mean you have to hold a grudge either, and let it hurt you. Just write her off as the scum she is and don't let her rent space in your head anymore. It's what I'm trying to do...to negate the OW's existence so I don't even have to THINK about her anymore. No forgiveness, no grudge, no NOTHING.<P>It's hard though, and I'm still at it.<P>Anyway, don't beat yourself up for what you did. You did what you had to do, and don't let anyone tell you you did wrong if you felt you had to make that call. What's done is done, and no amount of recrimination is going to change it. Just move on and don't feel guilty. It's counterproductive <P>

No Trust - Thank you for validating my actions. <P>It's a bit confusing to read how some people can actually understand things from Mia's sorry point of view. I still have never gotten the answer from my H about what exactly he got from her. Must be something pretty special for him to feel like he must defend her at every nasty comment I make about her.<P>

I never should have come here...<P>you wouldn't save a fellow human being... you'd watch her die, and enjoy her suffering. That is the saddest thing I've ever heard. <P>I have been in your shoes, my H betrayed me- twice- and I can tell you that I WOULD save the OW - both of them - because they are HUMAN BEINGS.<P>My God... I'm not Hitler, I'm a sinner saved by grace. Thank God I can find some forgiveness in God's eyes.<P>I'm sorry I intruded in your thread.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 15, 1999).]

NB - I'm a far cry from Hitler! Geezzz.... I am a very bitter scorned woman who wants her life back the way it used to be. And I know it will never be that way.

I wrote a post in regards to your not giving up on your marriage(I know you were just venting... frustration sets in and I can understand that), but didn’t post. Saw some other stuff you wrote, and wrote a VERY angry post to you TL... counted to 10 and deleted it. Then I saw this, and wished I hadn’t.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's a bit confusing to read how some people can actually understand things from Mia's sorry point of view.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I know, cause I <B>lived</B> it. I’m a good person who made some really bad mistakes. I’m <B>HUMAN,</B> and so is Mia. From what I can see, she truly <B>IS</B> remorseful. If that is so, nothing you can do or say will EVER make her feel as bad as she makes herself feel.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Must be something pretty special for him to feel like he must defend her at every nasty comment I make about her.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I’ll come right out and say something... despite what she did, she’s a better person than you are. We all make mistakes, but you are a <B>LIVING</B> mistake. You are a vindictive, bitter woman, and your husband deserves better than you.<P>

Thanks for the reply WhoDat. Obviously my husband thought deserved better too. I keep forgetting Mia (the adulteress) is the saint in all of this.

WhoDat<P>My mom said if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.<P>Shame on you.

TL,<BR>Are you a Christian? Just curious.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Everyone....<P>TL is here to vent, so let her vent. She is in a lot of pain. All of you here have been in pain and are still living in it. Coming to Marriage Builders is her outlet. <BR>Sometimes we react in ways others don't approve of. Every person and couple is different. I don't think it is fair to generalize that what is good for one person, is good for all.<P>I don't think it is fair to come to the conclusion that her H doesn't deserve to be with her because she is a bad person. How can anyone say that about another? We only know each other from what we Post and Reply....We don't really know who a person is unless we personally know them.<P>TL...I can understand what you did and why you did it, because I did the same thing. But there did come a time when I stopped focusing on the OW and started working on marital recovery. Once in awhile, those terrible triggers pop in my head and I become angry. I do tell my H and he is understanding about it.<P>I think that's what helps me move on. I wish you luck with your H. It's going to be a long, tough road...but I know you can do it!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by NoTrust (edited October 15, 1999).]

Prof Org - I was brought up in a Christian home but do not attend church or anything like that.

Rob, I know you mean well, but TL's bitterness is not because she's not a Christian, it's because she can't get past what's happened. You don't have to be a Christian to forgive; you don't have to be a Christian to derive strength from within yourself.<P>TL isn't ready to let go of the rage. Perhaps faith would make it easier for her, but it's not something you can turn on and off.<P>TL, no one is saying you're not justified in feeling the way you do. But if you want to keep your marriage (and perhaps you don't; only you can decide), you are going to have to learn to LET GO OF THE ANGER. Let go of the past and focus on the future. Listen to the people here who are enduring the spouse's withdrawal from the OP. They can help you. <BR>Look, you might not be up to going through that process. And that's OK too. Then file for divorce and be done with it. But then don't say you worked on your marriage. Admit that you didn't want to, that you didn't feel up to it. But be honest with yourself.<P>No, your life won't ever be the same as it used to. No one's is. You have a shot at making a new one, one that's better, one where this won't happen again. But you have to navigate a minefield in order to get there, and there are no guarantees that you will. If you can deal with that, do it. If you can't, I for one, won't judge you.<P>People, everyone has a different tolerance for this stuff. I think it's unfair for anyone to get on TL's case for how she feels, even if she is expressing unconstructive feelings. She's ranting here so that she DOESN'T rant at her H (TL, I hope that's true).<P>TL, Mia is at best a person who made a mistake and genuinely wants to make amends. I don't blame you not trusting her. She could just be a master manipulator. But you have to reduce her importance in your life. If she was a factor, your H would be out of the house and with her. He's not. He's home. <P>Your H made a mistake. A bad one. He's paying a price, and unfortunately, so are you. It's not fair. Not at all. You have been wronged, and it's up to you to right it, and that's not how you were taught it should be. But there we are.<P>TL, if you can hang on, use this time to be nice to yourself. Your love bank is empty too, and your H can't put anything in it right now. So you have to nurture yourself for a while. You have to be nice to TL. And this sort of anger isn't being nice to TL.<P>I pay $80 an hour for what I've just told you for free.

Sheryl:<P>Don’t be down on yourself. Tired Lady is to be pitied. Not for her husband’s affair, but rather for how she is dealing with it. She’d rather hang on to hate than ever take a chance to love again.<P>How pathetic.<BR>

TL, <BR>You react much like my W. I do empathize with you. I found that the only way for me to get over my rage was to read my Bible. I went to my concordance and looked up forgiveness. I periodically get upset at what my W has done. It is proper to get angry but the key is not to sin. You keep calling Mia the adulteress. She has sinned. You must not hurt yourself by trying to change that which is out of your control. You sound like you want the peace that can only be found in Jesus. Your pain will never completely go away a least in this part of your existence. It will go away after judgement day.<P>Peace be with you.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

TL<P>What are you going to do if Mia calls your H and tells him what you did? Do you have a plan of action? I mean, he might really just pick up and go now. She probably was telling you the truth about it being over, but now she has a real reason to contact him again. What do you suppose will happen? I know you want some changes in your life, but is THAT what you wanted?<P>I can appreciate how angry you are, but two wrongs never have made a right. Good luck and I hope it goes OK. Something tells me that he will be steaming if/when he finds out. You better be prepared.

TL,<P>I did NOT call YOU Hitler, but I was referring to the fact that I feel like you think I am as bad as Hitler... <P>oh brother, I can't even explain... <P>Thing is, I honestly do understand your pain, what I don't understand is the lack of compassion for another HUMAN BEING, no matter what she has done. <P>I couldn't feel worse about my situation, which I know falls on deaf ears. <P>And now I really will stay away from this thread... <P>again, sorry. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

I am one of those betrayed who would give almost anything to have my H home - even if "only" for the kids. My most important "emotional need" is that my H be a good and loving father, and I am willing to put up with almost any other faults if he would return to that state. I kick myself every day for ever having confronted him - if I had not, and if I had never questioned his absences, he might still be here today, and his kids would be happy and not disillusioned, and I can't imagine myself being any more miserable than I am now.<P>I, too, hate the OW. I haven't called her and berated her, though I have certainly thought of it. I am not convinced that either she or my H are feeling any pain, since even after a year long affair and 5-8 months of living together, they are off somewhere enjoying a vacation together, perhaps celebrating their "anniversary". I am not convinced that they will ever feel any pain or remorse. I am not convinced that she has a conscience, and I fear that my H has lost his. But I would probably try to save her life if she were choking, because she has already made her children lose their father, and I wouldn't want them to lose their mother, too, such as she is.

Cristalle:<P>No shame here; that <B>was</B> nice. I don't have a lot of patience for people who have no room in their hearts for anything but hate. I really pity her, but not as much as I pity her husband.<BR>

double post<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited October 15, 1999).]

Hey all,<P>TL is venting here. She is saying some things that almost all of us have probably felt at one time or another.<BR>I think she acted wrongly in calling the ow, but it's done now. She will have to learn to act a bit more rationally in the future or she will suffer much longer than she needs to, but the emotions she is displaying now are perfectly normal.<P>How many of you felt like blowing your brains out at one time during all of this? Or blowing the op away? Or even your spouse? If even for just a moment?<P>TL, go ahead & scream & yell here. You are very crushed by all of this. Been there, done that, saw the movie, got the t-shirt, etc. You will have to let go of some of the anger though. You are letting the ow control your life & she isn't even around.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Chris:<P>True enough - Mia isn't around, but she's very much in my H's heart. And I will make the leap and assume that she hasn't told my H of the phone call or I'm sure he would of course run to her defense. So, again, for WhoDat, that makes Mia the "angel" here and I'm the *****!<P>God, don't you all think I know how absolutely horrible I sound? I have to look in the mirror every morning and hate the woman I've become because of all of this. I have to see my husband's unwillingness to communicate on any level (except where the kids are concerned) on a daily basis. We start the day in silence. We end the day in silence. If I approach him for answers to my seemingly neverending questions, I get the eyes rolling in the back of his head, and get told to just let it go. I can't let it go. I want those answers. I've tried to write a list of questions down, a few at a time, and he just leaves them on the table - unanswered He's told me I have never been able to talk to him or listen at the same level as Mia has. <P>I'm sorry for feeling the way I do. I feel nothing but contempt for Mia. And maybe you all are right in saying some of that blame has to be directed towards my husband. And, of course, I should take some of the blame for the state my marriage is in. In the end, does any of this admission matter? I cannot change the way my H feels can I?

I am a former OW who is now with my affair partner. His W did contact me by calling several times after finding out and even confronted me in person. One time she tried to tear the rings he had given me off my finger. I never responded. I spoke very little every time. I answered questions as truthfully as I could but I did not get into any kind of a catfight now matter what she said. Now he is with me and some of the things she said have been totally proven by facts to be lies. Without going into my affair, I do really believe with all my heart that how she acted in attacking me verbally several times actually pushed her STBXH to me. Two of the times she did it was when he and I had broken things off and he was really shocked and surprised that she acted as she did. You all can can have your own ideas about whether what she did was right or wrong. I'm just telling you what she did and what I think happened as a result. Maybe that will help some of you deal with these things. If you don't want to get him feeling sorry for the OW, I would say don't attack her. It just makes you look bad.

Delphi - thanks for the insight from the OW's point of view. Perhaps Mia is reading this post and learning from it. So, in your opinion, you are telling me that I am driving my husband right back into her arms...Is that what I read?

I believe it's spossible. If you want answers from him you must NOT snap or go hysterical/crazy when he gives them to you. Show him he can trust you with anything.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, in your opinion, you are telling me that I am driving my husband right back into her arms...Is that what I read?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TL... I tried to tell you something similar earlier, but you’ve been so focused on one small aspect of my posts that you didn’t see it. You still are. If you’ll go back and look, I hope you’ll notice I didn’t start to get nasty until your incredible hatred was getting too much for me to bear.<P>I’ll leave you alone now, though... you DO need to be angry and hurt... but at some point, something besides hate needs to find its way into your heart. From your “mirror” post above, it looks like you want it to happen. Only you can make it so.<P>

Chris: Thanks for acknowledging that I have a right to my out of control feelings. I called my H a few minutes ago and he's on his way home. He sounded annoyed and short with me, so perhaps Mia did call him, or this is his usual mood nowadays. Can't unring the bell can I? <P>

WhoDat:<P>I know you are only giving me advise that may help me see through my anger. I will not take offense to anything you say, however, I don't think you should take pity on my husband. He was, after all, a willing partner in crime wasn't he. Maybe he does deserve better than me. If this is truely how he has felt, then he should have been honest and told me how miserable he was instead of being an adulterer. The deception has hurt far worse than the truth. And right now, I am still dealing with deception and half truths.

TL,<BR>Relax! I for one wouldn't even hear the cries for help from the OM if he was up to his B*** (oops I mean eyeballs) in quicksand. And for all that are hollier than thou I am a christian, however that does not mean I am perfect. This infidelity thing just cuts to the quick! I understand completeley where the naysayers are coming <BR>, but we all have to process it in our way. I would NEVER act on all the thoughts I have had and still do not think they are right. We all have to understand the pain and frustration we are dealing with(including the betrayers)do wicked things to us.

TL, <P>I don't have much to add over what others have already stated. I think you know what needs to be done in order for your marriage to heal. <P>Hurt, anger, resentment, it's all a part of the process. Forgiveness is too. And I think you know that. <P>I don't know if me being a betrayed man handles this differently than you a betrayed women does. I think women need more answers than men do. I think women need more details than men do. <P>I do know we heal the same. Getting your answers and getting through this anger is something you should do quickly or hope will fade for reconciliation. <P>I suggest you search for your part in your failing marriage. Infidelity is a symptom of a failing marriage NOT the cause. Once you recognize your part you can help your husband recognize his (and I don't mean the affair). I think when you really understand your role in this, your anger will subside and healing can begin. That's how I was able to get through the initial anger. <P>Your pain is real and we all know how it feels. We are just trying to help in healing. Believe it or not, you have many things going for you. <P>It is up to you if you want this marriage to be saved. You can save it and have a better marriage than you thought possible.<P>SHA<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited October 15, 1999).]

TL, thanks for receiving my response as an OW so kindly. God knows there's enough hurt for everyone here. Yes, you are driving him into her arms. You are making him feel protective of her. You are attacking her, a woman he has feelings for. If she attacked you, he would feel protective of you. Now I know you feel she has attacked you by sleeping with your husband, but he doesn't see it that way. He is a man and he wants to protect the women he loves. If you attack her, he will want to protect her. Trust me, it happened exactly this way. I didn't encourage it but sure enough, he felt protective of me and even apologized to me for her attacking me every time she did. He felt like it was his fault that she was attacking me. Your H, I'll bet you, feels responsible for your attack on Mia and feels bad for her. Forget whether it's fair or not and think about what you really want to happen in the end. Then do what you have to do to make that happen. Fair has nothing to do with it. I am sure his W doesn't think it's fair that he is with me but he is. So listen and learn.

I just read some of your earlier posts. I am sure Mia did tell him of your call. He may not admit it but I'll bet she did. So if I were you, I would tell him that you did it before he confronts you. I would apologize for doing it. I know this will stick in your craw, but do you want to save your marriage? If you do, you need to apologize to your H for calling Mia. You need to tell him that you snapped, that you love him so much that you lost it, and that you won't do it again. That you know it's between you two and that is where you want it to stay. Pleasat believe me. He feels protective of Mia. That is a man's way and you can't change it. So, either live with it and work with it to your advantage, or have things go very badly. I'm someone who is not too dumb and who has seen it and understand it, at least in my situation which I think is like many.<P>Del

Hi Tired Lady -<P>I have tears coming down because I feel your emotions so strongly through your words here....It's such a feeling of helplessness and striking out at OW is the only route to some sort of control or action YOU can do. It must seem like you are in a box....with no give from any side.<P>Is that how you feel, or am I off base here? I remember being paralized for a time....between shock, hurt and just plain not knowing what to do. The worst part for was that my H wouldn't talk with me about "us"...he wouldn't open up at all, let alone answer my questions. I gave up the "affair" questions and tried to go at things from just an "our problems" and let's fix them perspective.....that didn't open H up either. Not yet anyway!!!<P>Have you tried that? Tried to talk and work out the original marriage problems and needs stuff? Maybe he would address that if the negativity "talk" about the affair is not part of it? I say this only because it seems to be such a roadblock to communication in so many cases to talk of "the affair" because of the guilt factor or the pain factors. Maybe a way to stop the "starting and ending the day in silence" cycle that is happening is to start communicating on a basic level between you and him...your issues - not any issues with outside influence (ie OW) at the moment.<P>Only when your H feels safe with you and your relationship, will he be able to open up with the truth of why and what in regards to the affair. Do you understand what I mean? <P>You want to jump in with both feet and get all the details of it so you feel that you finally have honesty...at least that's what you hope. This can't happen without you both building some basic friendship back up between you. Then with that little bond will come the honesty you crave.<P>The way it is now, is just beating your head againt a rock.....he can not give you what you want and need because he is afraid of the past unhappiness and the problems eroding the marriage before the affair will just continue - You cannot give him what he wants and needs because you are afraid that you won't ever have honesty from him and he will continue to lie and cheat. It's a big ole' logjam!!! And you're both contributing to it.<P>It can be pushed out of the way....it is not a hopeless situation, really TL - it isn't!! <P>You have both been stuck in this stagnant opposition for some time now and as is quite evident - nothing is being accomplished!! The exact opposite is, in fact occurring - you are both doing even more damage to each other.<P>So, it seems that it's time to look for a different approach to the situation.<P>You are feeling things that are valid, have no doubt....BUT you also need to take that energy of anger and use it to move your life in the direction you want it to go. H must do that also. Since I am talking with you...it seems that you are in the position to open yourself up to help from others, perhaps H is not. So you can guide him and the marriage along different lines if you CHOOSE to do so.<P>Some ideas I have are to either talk or write to H and let him know that the way things have been handled by BOTH of you so far is definitely not working. Change in both of your attitudes and communications are needed.<P>It's time to try to be a friend instead of an enemy to each other. After all you two did, at some time in your relationship know how to show your love for each other and your respect and concern for each other's feelings. That is something that should take priority again.....the partnership/the team.<P>It's there TL, it's just buried under all that life and bad choices have thrown at you.....it can be dug up and polished so that it can shine again.<P>It will just have to be dug up by you and H working hard and "throwing the dirt off" (meaning OW thoughts for now).<P>Once the "dirt's out of the way (OW out of the forefront of your thoughts.) it will be much easier to find out how the dirt got on top of your marriage when you start to see the shine again - even if its only a glimmer.<P>Does this make sense and help in any way? I hope so because I want so much for you two to overcome this.....it is a very good thing that you are together. I only wish I had the situation you have. There is hope there TL - ther really is!!!<P>One thing that you said o Chris in a reply was "I cannot change the way my H feels can I?"<P>My answer to that is "YOU DAMN WELL CAN!!" and we will help if you want...<BR>But we can't do it....this is where you can have control if you choose to take it. By changing your attitude and perspective...you CAN effect his!!!!<P>By changing your focus from OW to YOU AND H - you can make that his focus also!! <P>The only way to do that is to become someone that you would want to be a friend to.....Do you fit that description in your current state of mind? Absolutely not!! You said yourself that you don't even want to look in the mirror at who you've becomes....so, let's get rid of that image!!!! Let's turn off some of the heaviness caused by the bad feelings around to bring some lightheartedness into your life...you can't keep yourself under this "rock" of anger and hurt...it will kill you - let alone your love and marriage!! I don't want to see that.<P>God is with you and I really don't think that He wants you to stay in this suffrage.....Perhaps it is Strength that you are to attain from this hell....<P>Please TL, you must try...we will all help you. We see through the anger and pain...we see that good person that you are!! Let HER OUT AGAIN!!!!!<P>BIG HUGS and Strength to you,<P>Sheba<P>

hello tl,<BR>I am so sorry that you are still frustrated with all this. I was praying to return and read that your H was responding. I sure don't blame you for what you did, and I did the same. The situation was quite different in that the affairs were yrs ago, h did not care about their feelings. I did not yell at them, was calm and let them talk. But I did not hear what I wanted to hear-which was an apology. <BR>In retrospect I would never have called the few I did. It was not healthy for me. One stated she thought I was crazy, bringing all this up. Hey, just what I needed to hear to heal. <BR>Since it brought such little satisfaction, I did not do it again. I guess we all need to find what helps us heal? Each of us has our own way of expressing our pain and hurt, and our own ways of working toward having a healthy relationship. <BR>Hang in ther tl, you'll be just fine. (((hugs))) cl

Very WISE words, Sheba

I cannot believe all the responses and words of encouragement from all of you. Thank you, it really does help to know I am free to be crazy here.<P>H came home and confronted me about my phone call to Mia. (Sheba - I could have confessed before he brought it up, but I didn't) H says that a co-worker who knows both Mia and him saw her at work today and she was crying. (gee, poor baby) The co-worker said she only told him that she had gotten a berating phone call from someone who was pretty angry with her (well, again an honest statement) My H told me that although the co-worker didn't name who the caller was, he was convinced I was guilty. So I told him I did it. I also told him that I wanted her to hurt, as much as I was hurting and didn't know any other way to do it. As you can imagine, he was pissed. Delphi was right that he would defend her. And he did.<P>He keeps telling me that I'm unbalanced. I'm irrational. I need to "get over it", etc. etc. He continues to tell me that Mia was the one who broke off their relationship and he wishes that she hadn't. He told me that the wrong he did in having an affair with her doesn't compare to the hell I'm putting him through. And with that last statement he said, "I've got to get out of here", I can't take this bul...s...t anymore. And he left.<P>I should have figured in the long run, he would eventually do this. I guess it's all true - I drove him to leave me.<P>

I'm sorry he left tonight. Hopefully he'll return so that you can continue working on your marriage.<P>Can I ask, do you honestly feel better now that you called? I understand the need to have closure. Did you get it? Will you call again?<P>TL, you have EVERY RIGHT to be angry, especially since your H did defend her. If my H called the OM and made him cry, or beat the crap outta him, I WOULD NOT DEFEND HIM. That is the difference, I think. <P>I do hope he comes home to work with you because I know how much your marriage means to you.<P>Best wishes.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

NB - Do I feel better calling? In a sense, I did it for me. The only thing I could have any control over. As far as closure - I'll never have closure if my husband is not in anyway showing any signs of wanting to tell me everthing about this affair or why he did it? I'm not an idiot. I contributed one heck of alot to the downfall of this marriage. <BR>Will I call her again? Doubt it. Look at how he reacted. Didn't quite have the end result I was hoping for. <P>Look, everyone, the one thing my husband did share with me about this affair during one of the few joint counseling sessions we went to is that he "loved" her. For him to feel this way, and then to admit it is a huge thing for him. He is not an overly emotional kind of man. So, I believe he still has these feelings for her. That is the biggest part of my anger. I wish that that love she feels for her was mine.

Tired Lady, I'm really sorry for what you're going through. Not just typing the standard as appropriate but truly sorry for your pain. I have the pain of my husband's rejection too but in a different sense and I won't even go there now.<P>Let me say this though, there are some of us that are in circumstances where we can't get the love of our spouse back although we try so hard over and over again. Heartbreaking and soul wrenching. I have finally come to the conclusion tonight that I can't control my H's actions, only mine and I will be okay. I'm not EVEN comparing your situation to mine but can't we both just accept that we can't control our spouse's and be the best WE can be without bitterness? I've lived too long with negative feelings and I don't know about you, but I'm tired of it. (Oops, you're tired lady so I guess you know of what I speak!). <P>Let's just take the bull by THE HORNS and start living life happily and in control of our emotions. The only future we can control is our own

Hi Tired Lady -<P>I am sorry for your H's reaction...can't say I am surprised though. They can't deal with some aspects of this whole thing just like we can't....<P>I think that what you may not realize fully is the fantasy factor and the commonality that betrayers feel and act and say when in an affair and after it's over.<P>You say that the fact that he says he loves her is what keeps your anger....Have you read other people's stories here? Do you not see virtually the same thing with a lot of those stories? <P>TL - what your H said is very common..a lot of people say/have said the same thing and then (after the affair and withdrawal) have discovered that the "love" they felt for the OP was part of some fantasy and/or was not a lasting kind.<P>Why is it then that you can't conceive that this "love" is part of Infidelity's symptoms? Why can't you understand that your H is in withdrawal and each time you bring up OW and the affair - you are opening a freshly closed wound? Have you not observed and learned from Harley and posters here that there are certain phases and steps to be gone through?<P>Gosh, I wish I could come over right now and talk with you and hug you and shake you till your teeth rattle!!! LOL!! (not really!!!) I just want you to see that you are personalizing his fantasy actions and words too much!!<P>Yes, of course they are personal to you - if there was no fantasy aspect to infidelity and if so many people didn't follow the same pattern and even say the same things....I would totally agree with you....but that is not the case.<P>There are patterns...I look at it as if I were looking at symptoms of an illness....I would not base my existance and my future on a possible "fantasy" period that my H is having....and neither should you. <P>So you see, TL...your H is not unique!!<BR>He has/is acting and saying things that most others in his position have...<P>What makes some of them get through their "love" for the OP? Probably the spouse that they have and the understanding and help that they receive....<P>We can get you there if you want.<P>I have an idea about what you can do at this point - don't know if you will like it but I will be writing it tomorrow (Codeine's kicking in)....<P>I would like you to think tonight about something....<P>DO YOU LOVE YOUR HUSBAND?<P>DO YOU WANT TO STAY MARRIED AND FIND EACH OTHER AGAIN or DO YOU WANT TO STAY IN THE HELL YOU ARE IN NOW AND LET HIM GO?<P>Think very hard and leave the OW anger out of it.....<P>This is YOUR life ....no one else but H and your kids matter.<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>PS - I'll be back tomorrow and hopefully we can get you two on the same track.<P>I care about you!!!! <P><BR>

If anyone is irrational and imbalanced, it is your H. I'm sorry he reacted in the way that he did. You did what you had to do for YOU, and no one else. I agree with you that, for your marriage to work, your H has to at least meet you half-way, in working on your marriage, which he wasn't doing.<P>Right now, it is unpredictable on what your H will do. I think the next step is to focus on you. Do things that make you happy. Spoil and pamper yourself. You are a special person who deserves to be loved. Why not start by loving yourself and be the wonderful person you want to be.<P>Hopefully, your H will see what a wonderful person you are and will wake-up from his fantasy land and wonder what he was doing there to begin with. My thoughts are with you...<p>[This message has been edited by NoTrust (edited October 15, 1999).]

TL and others...<P>Take a step back and look at this again. It is right out of a "Jerry Springer" show. W confesses to H that she is sleeping with OM. OM comes on stage and H and OM go at it beating on each other. However, neither is upset with W. This very similar to what we have here.<P>I can't generate any rage against OM, simply because he didn't do this to me. He had never met me. W was totally and absolutely responsible for what happened. OM just happened to be available. Any anger or rage that occasionally comes to mind is directed at W's behavior.<P>TL, I know this will sound harsh, but GET OVER IT!! Whether or not you want to work to save your marriage, you won't ever bring this to closure for yourself by blaming the OW.<P>Your H deliberately chose his actions. It doesn't matter how OW acted, whether she came on to him or was responsive to his overtures. You need to work with your H if you want to save the marriage. If you don't, then just work to get past it. Carrying this amount of rage against OW and acting on it is a cop-out on your part. You feel you need to blame someone(most of us betrayed feel that way), but it's counterproductive to your getting back on your feet.<P>Again, I apologize if this post is harsh, but it's the way I feel. I am sad for how you feel and hope dearly that you can start to put all of this behind you and start to re-build your life, with or without H.

I DO think that it is harsh to tell a betrayed person "to just get over it."<P>Also, the OW is EQUALLY responsible for her behavior. She made a conscience decision to intrude upon another's marriage. She could have done the right thing, and declined when propositioned, but she didn't.<P>Don't get me wrong. The H is EQUALLY responsible too. I think the reason why we blame the OP is because they are "the outsider."<P>We love our spouses and despite mistakes they make, we STILL love them, whereas, we have no sympathy for "the outsider."<P>TL is in a lot of pain and I can understand this, just like many others here, can understand.<P>I just think that TL needs to focus on loving herself now. Maybe the rest, will fall into place...

I think TL did what she needed to do. It is so easy for others to say " get over it"/<BR>SHE is the one living with this man day in and day out, and has to live with the frustration that her husand had an affair, is " in love" with Mia, and defends her!<BR>She has the right to tell Mia what she did to her life. Mia did ALOT of damage to this lady, and so did her husband. Not too easy to get over this !!<BR>WhoDat : I think you were very rude, I cannot believe what you wrote to TL,<BR>where's your compassion? Spend a day in TL's shoes, see what YOU would do. Then we can treat YOU like cr**, I'm sure that would make YOU feel better!?<BR>TL, I hope that you find happiness in your life, I am sorry you are going through this.

Before y'all get the wrong idea, I AM a betrayed and have felt in most ways just like TL and some of you. I just came to the realization that hatred of the OP doesn't fix anything. It just keeps one from dealing with what is coming from within.<P>If I thought there was any justification or pain-relief in it, I would have acted just like TL. I know she is in pain. I am there now. Saying "get over it" is indeed harsh, but it is good advice. You cannot work thru your feelings with your Sp if you are distracted by strong, unfettered negative feelings toward OP. These will unfailingly be directed eventually toward your Sp and be added to the negative feelings already there. It could mean the difference between reconciliation and divorce.<P>The exception to this is when OP has directed action toward you. At that point, it becomes personal and you should deal with it as such.<P>Sorry to be such a curmudgeon, but we have GOT to hold our spouses 100 percent responsible. I would agree that in the EMR, both parties share responsibility, but the spouse is the ONLY one with responsiblities to the marriage.

Heartpain - thanks for you kind words. I freely admit I have been a raving lunatic to live with. H has not come back yet. He called and talked to the kids and said he needed time to cool off. I believe the confrontation would have been far worse if he had stayed here. Anyway, I'm sad to say I'm still just as angry today as I was yesterday, but I won't be calling Mia anymore. Obviously that soured the marriage even more. Didn't think it was possible to make things worse but it did.

You did make things worse. I was right about him defending her, but here is something else I think I am right about. If you want to get back to any kind of a place where you feel you can work on things, you need to apologize to him for calling mia. It doesn't matter that you don't want to or don't think you should have to or that it's not fair. In your H's eyes, you attacked someone he loves and this made him very angry. You can say how it is wrong for him to feel this way until ou are blue in the face, and it won't change a thing. So, if you want to get him back in the house and have some kind of hope again, I would apologize. I would tell him that you realize it is between you and him and that you shouldn't have called mia and that you will never do it again. It is my bet that he will respond to this in a positive way.<P>Remember that I have had experience with this and I know how my STBH acted and how he felt. I hope you can learn from this advice. Put your anger aside and do what you have to do to get him back home, if you want him back home.

Forgot to say that I think it is total B*llsh*t that a friend happened to tell your H that mia was crying. I would bet the farm that she told him and that they still talk. By attacking her, you put her in a position to be able to call and cry to your H about what a mean horrible person you are. And, you see the results. I think you can start repairing it by apologizing to him for it, as I said, forgetting totally whether it is fair or not that you have to do it.

Delphi:<P>I am going to start a new post just to ask you a question. Why are you posting here on this board? Is there trouble in your "paradise"? Now that you have successfully taken a husband away from his wife and home, are you happy? Is your STBH happy? How long before you "got" him did you wait to announce your engagement? I guess this is something else I can look forward to...

TL<P>I am very sorry for your situation. The best situations when the betrayer spouse returns are when the affair died a natural death or returns because the betrayer decided to end the affair. In your situation your H has returned because he has been "divorced" by the OW, very quickly. He is not ready to work on the marriage yet. He is the one who must get over "it".<P>I am not condoning or condeming what you did, but your H needs now a most understanding friend and you should be that friend, not the OW.<P>It must be very frustrating having your H at home wishing he were elsewhere. My situation is somewhat similar in that the only time my wife is here is when the OM is not available, and she will not leave until we have a separation agreement. I very often feel the same way about the OM as you do about the OW and have said distasteful things to him when we have bumped into each other, face to face. <P>IMHO you need patience and have to work on giving your husband reasons to want to be with you and begin by being that understanding friend.<P>I know what your H did was wrong and what she did was wrong, but you must forget about her for now. From what I've read on these boards the male betrayers generally are less understanding of the betrayed spouse than their female counterpart. I hope you and your H can help each other move forward to a better future for you both.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From what I've read on these boards the male betrayers generally are less understanding of the betrayed spouse than their female counterpart. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree 100%, and will even go so far as to say that it works the other way around too. When my H cheated I was far more forgiving more quickly, more willing to do ANYthing to put my marriage back together, than my H has been toward me now.<P>TL, <P>I was so hoping to hear that your H returned and that you could work it out. I'm very sorry about that. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

TL<P>My STBH and his STBXW read Dr. Harley's books and worked on the program. I had ended our affair but he knew he had to end it and that it was wrong, too. I tried to get on with my life and had no contact with him. After a period of time of working on their problems, they just could not overcome them. I admit I was one of the problems because my STBH is in love with me but I was not one of the problems because we truly did end all contact. He left and did not contact me again until after he had left. Even though we had no contact, I know he had his ways of finding out what I was doing and who I was dating, etc. The time from her finding about us, which is when we ended it, and him moving out for good was a year and a half. <P>I knew they were doing the Marriage Builder type program and I was in so much pain over everything that I just wanted to read everything and anything about affairs just to feel that I had some control over my pain. I just wanted to understand how this happened, why I ended up doing something I never thought I would do, and I wanted to feel some hope for the pain to end. Dr. Harley's books made the most sense to me of any books. And believe me, I read about 100. <P>I don't post here very often and I only post when I think I really can contribute something that will help. I don't want to tell my whole story because there are so many here that are hurting and I would only become an outlet for their pain. But, I really do feel my experience could help some people and that is when I post.<P>Right to this day, my STBH's STBXW calls me the whore whenever she refers to me to him. For instance, she might say "I tried to call you last night but you and the whore must have been out on the town". She never stopped referring to me this way even when they were trying to work on their problems. Now whether or not she has a right to call me a whore is one thing. But, believe me it did nothing to help her relationship with her H. He loved me and he cringes I know, every time he hears her call me that. I can see it. And it builds resentment in him towards her. A man's natural desire is to protect the women he feels he loves. If you attack one of them he is going to want to protect her.<P>Please don't ask me to tell my story because I won't do that. What I will do is post sometimes when I see a situation I think I could help with. Like it or not, my own experience as an OW is a part in all this.<P>I really believe in Dr. Harley's advice even though it didn't work for my H. I want our relationship to work and so I follow it as much as possible with us and so does he.<P>Del

Awoken, NB - Thanks for your thoughts. I think this may be the beginning of the end.<P>Delphi - Your post makes me so sad for my current state of affairs. I believe that you could be Mia, the OW who calls off her affair because she knew it was wrong, only to sit back and watch the destruction of a marriage and feel like she had not contributed to it's demise. <BR>My H, and the couselor on separate occasions have both said that our "problems" and the downfall of this marriage occurred long before H ever entered into this affair. He says he didn't plan on it happening. It just did. (of course) I guess I was so consumed with other stuff for myself I ignored him. Now there is an entire continent dividing us. Mia, IMO, is the most intellegent one here. H shared all our problems, ones that have nothing to do with the affair with her. She shared her grief over the death of her husband with him, her struggles as a single mom, and they shared her successess at her job. He admires her and her determination to make something out of a tragedy in her life. All I do is give him sh*t and constant nagging, and misery.<BR>So, Delphi, I read between the lines. Your STBH was probably just like my H, and many others here on this site. I'm sure Mia would be interested in your story. It has the ending that perhaps she's wanting.<P>Thanks again for being so candid with me.

Hi Tired Lady -<P>How are you doing now? Did you get some sleep last night? You need to get some rest and make sure that you eat something!!!<P>I am sorry that he has not come home yet, it is good that he called though.<P>I think you're right that things could have been worse if he had stayed last nite.....time to regroup the emotions.<P>Did you think on what I asked you?<P>I think that this incident can be used to the advantage of both of you...this is a good turning point stage if you want it to be. As I said here before, what you have both been doing is not working....do you want to change it?<P>Here's a way to start to change things for the better.<P>Since he seems to think that you are the one who is unbalanced - I would agree with him....after all when HE BROUGHT OW into YOUR LIVES..yes, that through off your balance as well as the balance of the marriage!!! DId He think that anything less would be the result? <P>As far as the wrong he did not comparing to the hell you are putting him through... HOW WOULD HE KNOW? Besides that ONE MAJOR question, how are you supposed to "just get over it" when he won't tell you exactly what "IT" is?<P>From the two previous paragraphs I wrote, it is quite evident that your H still retains some selfish minded ideas, right? Granted he is (and we will say "is" at the moment for this discussion OK) home with you and the kids - maybe he feels that that is some sort of "trying" on his part....<P>I agree with you that it really is not due to the fact that if OW hadn't stopped things.....he wouldn't be "trying" anything with the marriage...<BR>He is probably thinking that he is being some sort of martyr by "putting up" with your anger and such.....but in reality, he is causing his own martyrdom!!!!<P>He has put you in this "box" as I call it...HE goes outside the marriage and breaks the vows and commitment (wall #!). HE "steals" the love, attention, affection, time and respect that were yours and gives them away (wall#2). HE creates an atmosphere of lies between the two of you and a tenseness in you, the children, the house and himself (wall #3) and then HE is rejected and decides that all he has brought into your lives is supposed to just disappear because he doesn't want to face it. (wall #4).<P>So, presto - there you are in this "box" that HE built around you....Your spirit is trapped within it.<P>So, by the anger and bitterness and hurt, I am seeing a woman who is desparately trying to claw her way out of this "box"....It is an instinctual and normal reaction, do not beat up on yourself for it happening to you.<P>Now you are at the point where you are realizing that the instinctive "clawing" is not going to work - the walls are too thick (H's head is too mired in withdrawal to start breaking down the walls)...<P>So, it's time to start using your own ideas to figure a way out. The only way out is to get him to let you out...to do that you have to somehow get through his mired brain with talking. He must be shown that he can take down the walls piece by piece......it's the first few bricks that are the hardest to remove and if you get him to take out one or two, he will start to be able to see you within those walls.<P>Right now, in his head - you are not seen for who you have always been to him up until just before the affair....he has made a vision of you with only bad traits and does not include any good ones because that would not let him justify his actions and the pain he is causing you.<P>With the first couple of bricks gone - there is a hole through which he can see the real you, the person he has loved for so long and all the goodness that you have. This glance at you will enable him to tear down the rest of those bricks in the walls much faster.<P>So, what am I saying....you have to initiate conversation with the goal of letting him resee his wife...the real you...the happy loving you ...the friend who was there always. THEN he will be able to allow himself to be open and sharing with you because you will once again be his "reality" instead of this "fantasy" world he is in now.<P>How to initiate this communication...I think that the best route for you would be a letter. There is too much anger and hurt between you both to do this effectively face to face. He has seen the hurt and the anger....he retains the visions of the anger to use against you in his own mind and this continues the justifications.<P>I have some ideas of the contents of the letter and before I go nuts writing it all out....is this something that you would consider doing? I will help you write it and not only will it help with H but you will be surprised with how much better you will feel.....<P>Let me know and I will help you get it done tonight....I am here!!! <P>Just keep in mind that the cylce can be broken and will be if something changes in a constructive way.<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>PS - If you want - EMail me at Sheba101@webtv.net and we can do it privately in case you are concerned of who will see it.

TL,<BR>I am still a lurker, although I do not post here as often as I used to.<P>Your post caught my eye. Because I too called the OW at work last week. I have moved into the fogiveness stage and I called to tell her that I have forgiven her. My H and I am WELL into recovery (8 months-STRONG). <P>God, how I hated the OW at a point. Terribly. So much so that it got me arrested! Yes, I smacked her on the head in a public place then hit her car (she was not in it...although I wished she were at times....heheheh ) That was the day, thank the Lord, that their affair ended.<P>I worked through so much to realize that it was not her who had the power over me, she was not the reason for my failing marriage...we did that by ourselves for years and years. All she was, was a catylist. She brought our problems into light. I read, prayed and looked for the truth inside my self.<P>And the truth was this: all she was, was a little 24 year old, who had a crappy childhood, and no where to turn. She turned to a married man, POOR choice, MY married man, AWFUL choice. But somehow, she was able to set him free to come home (his choice, really). Seems like Mia did that as well.<P>So, I had my husband back. The reason why he was home, and BTW, he did not come home until 6 weeks after their break-up....was because I did my work. I knew I needed to change me. Not to make him happy, but to make me better. I encourage you to listen to the others here, don't allow Mia to control you, or determine your happiness. She is not worthy of that. No one is. You need to take control of you life again, and decide what it is you need to do to become happy again. This I will promise you, if you continue to stay in a place of misery, you will only sink lower and lower.<P>Rise above it, and shine. You can make it. I know it.<BR>Best of luck, Sally<P>------------------<BR>You will be stronger because of this.<P>

TL,<P>You are wrong in saying that I did damage and then sat back and waited for the H to come to me. I broke it off with no contact and never expecting to see or talk to him again. He did Marriage Builders, they went to counseling and so did he. After all that he still could not stay and then he came to me. He is lucky I was still there. The truth is I could never have gotten over him in a year and a half but he didn't know that. Now he does but he didn't then. The affair was wrong but I feel we both did the right thing by ending it and by him working on his marriage without any contact with me. <P>I am not Mia and my H is not your H. But I did learn a thing or two as I went through all this hell, and I think sometimes it can help others. I don't want to be a target for your anger and hurt, that is not why I post. Since that is what I seem to be becoming to you and since you don't seem to want to hear my advice which is up to you, I'll stop posting to you. I hope things go better for you.<P>Del

Sheba:<P>I'd like you to help me write that letter. Just to let you know, I've written several of them to him over the course of the past year, and he reads them, says nothing, and leaves them on the kitchen counter. No response at all. Maybe I'm not saying the right things. I don't think it matters any more but I'll try one more time. Then I'm calling it quits.

Hi Tired Lady -<P>I am so glad that you will try this one more time......<P>Do you want me to write things here or do you want to EMail?<P>I am sick and fell asleep before you posted this last nite....I'm sorry !!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>Also, give us an update of you and H...

The way I do it (see and be polite to OW every week without fail) is that I make myself believe that I am the adult in the situation. And that I want her to see that I am absolutely above reproach. That he presence does not bother me at all. I relate to H as if she is not there, doing all the things I would normally do (except affection of course.. although I am curious as to what she would do if I simply grabbed him and started kissing him .. she seems so mellow, she might do nothing.. Hmmm. interesting topic for another day.? Anyway, I pretend that there is nothing that will faze me and so far it is working. She can never go to H and say that "the wife" is a B***H." She has me as an example of absolute propriety and maturity and this will make her actions and situation look even more pathetic. Just a suggestion. Hope it helps. <P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Sheba - here would be fine. Guess it might help someone else other than me. H is still gone, didn't hear from him. I know he is really pissed off. Oh well.

TL:<P>OK... I'm going to hope that you went back, and saw I <B>never</B> called Mia a "saint." I can understand your latching on to my saying... <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If she’s as awful as you say(and I really have my doubts, but that’s another story)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>but extrapolating that into my calling her a "saint" is taking it a bit far. It's interesting how you and some of the other posters here gloss over what I am trying to say in favor of one side comment, ignoring the CONTENT of the posts.<P>I saw(and still see) her as someone like me, who thought otherwise a good person, made a HORRIBLE mistake... and finally realized it. I seriously doubt she's sitting back and denying responsibility for the current state of your marriage, and just waiting for the implosion. In fact, until your call, I would bet she <B>wasn't</B> in contact with him. But I bet she is now.<P>I don't think <B>she's</B> awful... I think she did an awful thing.<P>I think what set me off was the sheer hatred. It's just I have seen here the damage hatred can do. Anger and hate most definitely have their place in the aftermath of discovery, but you can't recover your marriage with them. There are people here who preach hate. Do whatever you can to DESTROY the OP; your spouse is SCUM and undeserving of you; etc. These people are a cancer on society and on the efforts of recovering marriages. I even tried to post helpfully to some of them at one time, but their hate was too strong to take any advice. Is that really the way you want to live the rest of your life? As someone who is only capable of hate?<P>Anger breeds anger... hate breeds hate. That is why I won't edit my posts... your hatred for Mia flowed over into my responses to you, and I think that should remain. For that I am somewhat sorry, but not completely, because maybe you need to see how hatred affects <B>everything</B> and everyone in your life, not just Mia. I'm even finally adding a signature to my posts because of this. I know you're angry, and as I have always said, you have EVERY right to be. But the hate has to go. It will destroy you.<P>In my response to that anger, I posted about pitying your H. Do I really??? That's a tough one. Do I pity a man who cheated on his wife? No... of course not. Do I pity a man whose wife has nothing in her heart but hate, and is unwilling to let it go? Yes. Open your heart... it's the only way you will truly live.<P>OK... I'm going to try, for the last time, to take a different tack here. Know that when I use the word "love" here, I am describing the fantasy "love" of an affair. I know now that what I felt was real, but the person I felt it for wasn't. Just try telling me that during my affair though, or the withdrawal afterwards. I wouldn't have listened to a word. Same with your H.<P>I hope you can take a deep breath, and see how I describe Mia. This is my opinion only, but I think it's a pretty good one, since <B>I</B> was in the same boat. For whatever reason, she was just as vulnerable to this affair as was your H. But <B>she</B> stopped it. Much too late, of course, but she still did. Think about this... <B>she gave up the one "true love" of her life because she knew it was wrong.</B> Fought her way through the fantasy, which is harder than you could possibly imagine, and did something "right." I will grant you, she should have done it <B>MUCH</B> sooner. But she did it nonetheless. If she's a dragon lady, she simply tired of your H and doesn't care. If she's an otherwise good person, this will haunt her for the rest of her life. I'm sure the latter would make you happy.<P>Why do you think she sat on the end of that telephone and took your abuse? If she was really the snake you think she is, she would have just hung up on you and laughed. I think it's very likely she thinks she <B>deserves</B> your anger and hatred. That's not the actions of a Dragon Lady, those are the actions of someone who truly regrets a horrible mistake.<P>I don't think you'll ever "get over it," nor should you. It's unfair to even ask, and I for one would NEVER ask anyone to do so. I know <B>I</B> won't, and I know my W won't either. Your H is DEEP in withdrawal. I think once he gets out of it, I think you will need to <B>insist</B> he go to counseling with you, but that particular bridge is a long way off. You need to get him back first, to show him there's more to you than hatred.<P>An aside to IOH... my compassion was evident in the first few posts when I was attempting to help TL work through her hatred... but she would have none of it. If you can't believe what I wrote, you should have seen the first draft. What you saw was tame in comparison and in the face of TL's hatred (which is destroying any chance of restoring her marriage) very justified.<P><P>------------------<BR>No marriage was ever healed by the judicious application of hatred.

Tired Lady - I've been reading but trying to stay away from posting, everyone seems to have an awful lot to say. Also, everyone has some really valid points. You ARE tired, and you're hurt beyond belief and living w/ your h's withdrawal is just prolonging the nightmare. There's some good advice for you in the eighty-some posts before mine, even the ones that hurt your feelings and put you on the defensive. Read them again - yours too.<P>I was writing in now just to say I was sorry and give you my support. I know how you must be feeling right now. I do hope that he returns soon.<P>Sheba has some good ideas (and doesn't she always SAY them so well - luv ya, Sheba!) You can't speed up his withdrawal. You can't change what has happened. You have to do the things you can do for YOU. It's been said before - even by you - hate will only destroy you and your marriage. You have shown an amazing amount of courage so far - draw on it one more time. It's still there and you can do it. <P>Right now, believe it or not, YOU have all of the power. H doesn't, he's in withdrawal so deep he probably doesn't know his last name. Mia doesn't. She's removed herself from the position of power - and better late than never, I'd say. I wish that my H's OW would do that. but you do. You can change your life and his. It hurts, it's unrewarding for the present, anyway, but you have the power to change everything. To try to build or destroy your marriage, to help your H through withdrawal or push him farther away. To help yourself to heal from the hurt and anger or to destroy your spirit by holding on to it.<P>And I know you can do it. I've kept up with you and I've seen how very strong you are. It starts with a decision - actions will follow if you're determined. and you will see results.<P>Please try, for yourself, to replace the anger in your heart with love, compassion, forgiveness. I know you can, I just know it.<P>"Where roses bloom, thistles cannot grow."<P>You are in my prayers.<P>Lori

WhoDat, <P>You seem to be a very intelligent woman (you write beautifully) but I don't know why you want so badly to convince TL of your intentions. <P>Believe me, I was horrified by her words... and I have been both betrayed and betrayer... but still cannot imagine the extent of hatred that would allow a person to watch another die without helping (no matter what the sin - hate the sin, love the sinner, that's how I try to see it). I feel the same way when I read some others posts, usually posted by the betrayed, so I stay away from the really hurtful ones whenever possible. <P>However, I do care about TL, and only posted again to ask what happened in the end of this thing. <P>I have responded to her past posts in love, and she has responded to mine in kind. She is not a bad person, just a VERY VERY hurt person. I do not condone the hatred, but I hurt for her. Therefore, I would not want to add to her pain. <P>I guess I'm just wondering where you're coming from here...<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Hi, all,<P>One quick thing to clear up - Whodat is a man, not a woman! (& yup, he's pretty intelligent... but well-known around here for his *outspokenness* ). <P>My guess is that having been the repentant betrayer less than a year ago, he is passionate about getting his message across... that a marriage hurt by infidelity can be not only salvaged, but made to thrive... and he knows his own probably wouldn't have made it without the strength and love and eventual forgiveness of his wife... and doesn't want to see TL lose her chance to rescue her marriage, because frankly, her H is incapacitated right now.<P><BR>And maybe TL's situation is hitting a *little* close to home for Whodat (as it does for many of us former betrayers, I'm sure), as he knows he & his W dodged a bullet, and he'd fervently like to help someone else dodge that same bullet. <P>(OK, Whodat, how'd I do? Was that a Suse answer, or some strange hybrid?)<P>TL, I've been following your story but haven't posted yet. All of us can understand your utter devastation and anger... but the fact of the matter is that to save your marriage, the onus is on you right now to give your H some reason to stay and work. This is a long process with definite steps. The FIRST step is to give your H *any* inkling of a reason to believe that there might be something worth saving. Unfair, I know; challenging, I know (for what it's worth, one of the last steps is the betrayer coming to a realization of what a lame-brained, delusional thing he has done; what he has almost lost forever; and *deep* guilt and self-disgust that must be worked through).<P>Please read EVERYTHING on this website, and everything you can get your hands on, about the causes of and remedies for infidelity. Talk to your doctor about possibly getting on anti-depressants - depression is a very common after-effect of infidelity (for both betrayed *and* betrayer), and can lead to extreme anger and irritability as well as general pessimism (not a great state to be in when trying to save a marriage, huh?).<P>Everyone here is trying to convey their hard-won knowledge to you, and they know that there may be a 'window of opportunity' for you that will close quickly, if your H is constantly blasted with disdain and anger -- which as you've learned, is a good way to send him running out of the house and maybe even back to Mia.<P>TL, I know that it is very hard for you to muster any compassion for Mia, but I do have to say that I couldn't help feeling sorry when I read that her H had died... she has been through cataclysmic, life-altering grief; and made some very bad choices, and wronged you, in the course of her own pain... which she appears to be fully aware of and is trying to rectify as best she can... please understand that she despises herself every bit as much as you despise her - I know this as a former betrayer.<P>You must find a way to soften a very hard heart, and understand that humans are capable of doing terrible things in the grip of emotional pain - this goes for your H as well as Mia.<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Sheryl:<P>LOL... First of all, although a die-hard incurable romantic who will NEVER get enough sheer non-sexual affection and conversation, I am a man. <P>Second, my only real motivation is to help dispel the hate. I see TL as someone who IS tired, and basically at the end of her rope. But giving in to hatred is NOT the way to save her marriage. There are a few posters here who caress their hate more fondly than they ever caressed their spouses, and to tell the truth, it makes me sick. TL looked to me like someone not quite that far gone, but close. I was just hoping I could show her how futile the hate is.<P>*shrug*<P>That's pretty much it. But one more thing to those who cheered her on... there may well have been a time to make that call (and maybe not), but when her H was still in the depths of withdrawal was definitely <B>NOT</B> that time. She couldn't have done a worse LoveBuster at this particular time than to drive Mia to pick up the phone, if she truly had been letting it ring before.<BR><P>------------------<BR>No marriage was ever healed by the judicious application of hatred.

Suse:<P>Pretty good. <P>Especially the "dodging a bullet" part. It's scary how close I came to losing everything that was precious, as well as things that would be.<BR><P>------------------<BR>No marriage was ever healed by the judicious application of hatred.

WhoDat,<BR>I would agree with you. I tried to appeal to her Christian up bringing. I know her rage but she has taken it to the extreme. I can only pray that God will soften her heart. She wants to get revenge when that is God's responisbility to pay back. She can't see the blessings that He has bestowed upon her. I only wish that the OMen would have done what Mia has done for her and left. <P>I said a special prayer for EVERYONE here today. God will clear all this mess for ALL of us to include TL. MONDO HUG TL. MONDO HUG to you ALL.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Hi Tired Lady -<P>I did not forget you....I have been hard at work on you today!!!!<P>I printed all your posts, reviewed them and now have some questions that I need you to answer in order to make this letter as accurate and personal as possible. Some of what I ask or say might seem harsh, but it is not meant to be...I am merely looking at the facts of what you have stated about your marriage and these need to be addressed so that H will respond to this attempt at communication and progression of the current state of the marriage... <P>READY!!!! Here we go....<P>1) Why do you think things within the marriage changed at least ten years ago?<BR>Was there any event, sickness, stress, etc. that took place at that time?<BR>---I ask because you stated that you have not seen affection, emotions, loving, etc. from him in at least that long.<P>2) You have stated over and over that you were not a very good wife....can you tell me why? Do you feel that your behavior changed from earlier years or were you always not so inclined? IF changed, do you know what made that change?<P>3) Why did you not want to go to counseling or address issues when your H brought them up over and over throughout the years?<P>4) Are all the things that you say you did not provide H with throughout the years something that you are willing to start doing and being conscious of?<P>5) Are you willing to get a job with a more stable income than the current one you have?<P>6) Why do you feel you have had the weight gain? Is it symptomatic of stress or emotions through the years or is it simply (like a lot of us) a natural progression of age and neglect of our bodies? Is it something that you want to improve upon to make yourself feel better and healthier?<P>7) When you were both in counseling..you report that you did most of the talking, sounded like you just were concerned with your own feelings and wants and did not care to hear anything about H's ..is this the case? If not, why did H not say much....the counselor should have been able to draw him out? I am confused on this.....<P>8) It seems that since the affair, you say that you have been trying and doing all the work ....what EXACTLY have you been doing? <P>9) You have stated that you are a B*@*h most of the time since affair and can you change that into showing your H the woman that he fell in love with and married? Or at least a Friend Again? <BR>---I ask because WHY would he want to be affectionate, etc. with a B*@*h?<P>10) What would you like from Him as far as showing that he is working on the marriage?<P>These should be answered as HONESTLY as you possibly can....if you don't know or aren't sure - then say so and what might help you become sure.<P>TL - This letter CAN be a fresh outlook starting place for you and H....if you are willing to look at and do what you need to to make H feel wanted by you. From reading your posts, it seemed that he was not very needed or wanted for a very long time....he even tried to communicate that to you quite a bit.<P>Hence, OW enters the picture...she shows some concern and attention to him - everyone NEEDS to feel wanted and appreciated and most of all loved and valued.....he did not feel that for a long time with you.<P>Now you are in his position, with the added hell of there being competition.<P>He had competition also, only in the form of your friends, activities, money spending, etc. Perhaps this caused such pain and hurt to him that he could have felt the same as you do now...<P>Your heart was not with him then....just as his heart is not with you now!!!<P>You might not think of things this way right now, but in the reality of the marriage - your H was very loyal through many years..you have admitted all you did not give.. and I think that he has morals and values. It was only at some "breaking" point in his mind due to lack of love and affection from you that he opened himself to receive it elsewhere.<P>That is also why I think that he will not touch you or show you affection!! In his mind, with the morals he has, he can only "love" or be monogomous to one woman. You have the definite advantage of being that woman again/still for two reasons: <P> 1. You are his WIFE and his love for you was proven by his sticking by you through all the years that you did not (through your own admittance) return the kind of love and attention required. <BR> <BR> 2. His feelings for OW came from lonliness and pain originally and led to lies and fantasy....and now it's time for reality once again. Time to get those feeling of love back in your direction...<P>With you showing him that he is wanted, needed and loved - he will not take too long to choose you and his children..but he MUST be made to feel a part of you and your life...not just your verbal punching bag.<P>THAT is the way to get OW out of his mind......that is what we will start with this letter.<P>When you reply, I'll take what you've answered and apply it and then post an outline for you, OK?<P>We can do this!!!!! <P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Tired Lady -<P>If anyone's presence disturbs you - use my EMail......nothing or noone will deter us from doing this!!!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Sheba:<P>I will email you my responses tomorrow. I'm too tired to think about all this right now and the answers would be way too personal. I'll write you tomorrow.<P>Thank you again.<P>

TL...<P>I've been thinking about you. Did your H ever come home? I'm so glad that you will be writing that letter to H and that Sheba is helping you. She has a wonderful way of explaining things.<P>Good luck on this and keep us updated....

Wow- this post is getting too long. TL -- please start a new one! <P>My thoughts. I rarely get in the middle of squabbles, but WhoDat, you went too far. We've all made mistakes, and being betrayed has brought out a capacity for rage and irrationality that I never knew existed. Does that mean we all 'got what we deserved'? Maybe your statement hurts so much because deep down I fear it might be true. Nevertheless, its cruel. Nuff said.<P>TL- Here's my thoughts on why you did what you did. You are committing marriage suicide. Why does someone commit suicide? Because they are hurting soooooo much and it seems the only way to communicate their pain. No amount of berating the OW is ever going to make the pain go away. The real recipient of the message was your husband. You need him to acknowledge how much you are hurting. If he would do that, I'll bet your need to inflict pain on the OW would go away. You are hurting so much that you are even willing to sacrifice your marriage in order to communicate your pain. <P>Unfortunately, I don't have any answers for you. Try to imagine the OW as a cockroach who is not worthy of your attention. It helped me to realize that I would not trade places with her. <P>But I stepped over the line as well. If you read my recent posts, you know that I told my H's boss (and her boss) of their affair a few weeks ago. I just snapped. <P>Keep in mind that if this is the straw that breaks the camels back the back was close to breaking anyway. Don't beat yourself up over it. Sometimes I think this Harley stuff is awfully damaging to the betrayed spouse -- so much emphasis on what we did wrong in the marriage and what we need to do to fix it. Well, even if you do everything right it may not be enough. Are we to walk around forever feeling like marriage failures? <P>You need to get Mia out of your life. This is your H's responsibility. Together you guys need to come up with a plan to do so. Maybe it can't happen right away -- maybe it involves him changing jobs in 6 months or so. But having a plan (that you both agree on) with help you move forward. <P>Awhile ago I would have envied your situation. I believed that we could work miricles if my H would just come home -- even if it was 'just for the kids'. Now I'm not so sure. <P>But think long and hard about what you want. Maybe you don't really want the marriage under these circumstances. But if you want it to succeed, don't squander the chance you have been given. <P>You might really be helped by the book 'DivorceBusting' and the web site (www.divorcebusting.com). The focus is on recognizing what works and what doesn't work and changing the patterns that aren't working. <P>If coming here to vent helps you control the anger, by all means come here. Ignore those who call you hateful. What we feel for the OP is HATE. That doesn't make me a hateful person, just an honest one. And Christians are supposed to leave the judging to God, so ignore them, too. Several months ago we had a post on all the mean, nasty, rotten things we wanted to do to the OWs. Some people were offended (as always!), but I thought it was great. After all, we are all thinking these things. Sharing it helped us all find the humor in the situation. <P>I understand that you will NEVER forgive the OW. But I pray that your soul will find peace. <p>[This message has been edited by Animac (edited October 17, 1999).]

NoTrust: No, he didn't come back. Found out that he's been at his sister's house. (No thanks to her. She's very tight lipped - protecting her brother, I guess.) I will let everyone know in a followup post after Sheba helps with my letter.<P>Animac: Thanks for your reply. I for one am amazed at how many responses to this I have gotten. Over a crazy phone call the the OW! Seems strange, but I'm grateful for all the input.<P>You are all right. I don't know if I want this marriage or not. I tend to lean on the side of I don't. Sad, but true.

Tired Lady: I feel really bad for you, my heart goes out to you. Just like me, you have had it with H and other W. However, I have come at a cross road today. I have decided that there is nothing I can do to stop them, if they decide to continue seeing each other. I have personally confronted her<BR>and told her to stop "f...ing" my husband, she denied she was doing it. I also told her that she can't have him all to herself because I will continue to make love to my husband whether she is in the picture or not because I love him and will never give him up. As she continued to deny I assured her that she was not dealing with a stupid person and that God finally made me see the light. God also made this meeting happen, quite accidentally, in front of a store, on the worse day of my life and I needed to vent to her as I was not going to be polite knowing <BR>what has been going on. It is not bad to confront, it is one way for us to deal, head-on with the problem. I don't think she cared very much about my anger because she will continue to do what she wants with my husband, and my husband will continue to do what he wants with her, as long as are able to sneak around behind my back. I wanted to talk to her again, after this initial confrontation, but because I threatned to beat the s--- out of her, my H is keeping an eye on me and does not want me to appear at the place of employment while she is still working there. She is leaving on Oct. 30th.<BR>Today is his and her day off. I am trying not to think about the two of them spending time together, but I know that they will see each other today, I have no proof of that, but I know my H and I know that she will not give him up so easily. Will I go crazy about this ? I am going to stop, be strong and not drive myself crazy. We made love this morning, it was simply beautiful. My goal is to make our lovemaking more beautiful and meaningful to him that it is with OW, I am hoping that he will no longer have the need to go to her. Unlike so many others on this board, I am lucky that although I suspect they are continuing, he does not want to separate, divorce or give me up. He has changed his attitude towards me, he treats me so much better, he is nice to me, he wants to do things with me and the kids, he is a different man, yet at the same time, he is still not willing to give her up. I have to be patient and so do you. Being nasty to the OW and to keep on fighting with H is not good because he will just keep going to her and she will bank the love points. Its taking me weeks to realize this. For example, as we were making love this morning I told him I loved him, he told me he loves me too, I told him he is the only man for me and he told me <BR>he feels the same way about me. Friends have told me that "he wants the cake and wants to eat it too", this may be true, but how many <BR>years can she go on with a relatioship where she only sees him once a week, since he has no intention of ever giving me up ? One of them has to get tired of this. She is only <BR>39. Have a bright day, do something to lift your spirits

Tired Lady: I feel really bad for you, my heart goes out to you. Just like me, you have had it with H and other W. However, I have come at a cross road today. I have decided that there is nothing I can do to stop them, if they decide to continue seeing each other. I have personally confronted her<BR>and told her to stop "f...ing" my husband, she denied she was doing it. I also told her that she can't have him all to herself because I will continue to make love to my husband whether she is in the picture or not because I love him and will never give him up. As she continued to deny I assured her that she was not dealing with a stupid person and that God finally made me see the light. God also made this meeting happen, quite accidentally, in front of a store, on the worse day of my life and I needed to vent to her as I was not going to be polite knowing <BR>what has been going on. It is not bad to confront, it is one way for us to deal, head-on with the problem. I don't think she cared very much about my anger because she will continue to do what she wants with my husband, and my husband will continue to do what he wants with her, as long as are able to sneak around behind my back. I wanted to talk to her again, after this initial confrontation, but because I threatned to beat the s--- out of her, my H is keeping an eye on me and does not want me to appear at the place of employment while she is still working there. She is leaving on Oct. 30th.<BR>Today is his and her day off. I am trying not to think about the two of them spending time together, but I know that they will see each other today, I have no proof of that, but I know my H and I know that she will not give him up so easily. Will I go crazy about this ? I am going to stop, be strong and not drive myself crazy. We made love this morning, it was simply beautiful. My goal is to make our lovemaking more beautiful and meaningful to him that it is with OW, I am hoping that he will no longer have the need to go to her. Unlike so many others on this board, I am lucky that although I suspect they are continuing, he does not want to separate, divorce or give me up. He has changed his attitude towards me, he treats me so much better, he is nice to me, he wants to do things with me and the kids, he is a different man, yet at the same time, he is still not willing to give her up. I have to be patient and so do you. Being nasty to the OW and to keep on fighting with H is not good because he will just keep going to her and she will bank the love points. Its taking me weeks to realize this. For example, as we were making love this morning I told him I loved him, he told me he loves me too, I told him he is the only man for me and he told me <BR>he feels the same way about me. Friends have told me that "he wants the cake and wants to eat it too", this may be true, but how many <BR>years can she go on with a relatioship where she only sees him once a week, since he has no intention of ever giving me up ? One of them has to get tired of this. She is only <BR>39. Have a bright day, do something to lift your spirits