I posted this in "Why didn't you have a revenge affair?" thread...



I sense a bit of a double standard in this thread as far as how many people her are handling my ONS "BS affair" as compared to how the same people handle a WS (who were the 1st to break their vows).

It seems that if a WS comes to MB, and is honest in what they did, adopts all of MB principles, seeks counselling, and does everything "by the book" as one would say...they get nothing but encouragement on how to fix what they did. Why is it that if someone does the aformentioned things to fix their marriage, and adds in that BS wasn't meeting my EN's theat they seem to get some leeway, as long as they are committed to recovery?

I'm 100% committed to recovery, get harley counselling, adopted MB principles...and I also said that my EN of SF was not fullfilled. I'm 100% responsible for my actions as far as the ONS is concerned...but yet, not much support from any members.

Is the fact that someone says that their affair started with EA instead of PA the reason? Is the whole "revenge" tag associated for a BS's affair the reason. Is it the final verdict that "revenge" is always the reason? That tag seems to be like some sort of blanket statement that sums up every single BS affair, when the original affair can have about 50 different reasons. Why is that?




I think that this warrants some more discussion, because being someone that is basically looking at affairs from both sides of the coin and I've noticed something intriguing the last couple of days. I do seem to be the only one to admit to a BS affair, but I'm sure there are more here (maybe some just don't want to admit it...I don't know). Not really looking to debate over my sitch...just how people that have had one of these types of affairs, in general, are being handles a little differently... that's all.

Have you ever heard "you can only be accountable for what you know?"

I think that having gone through the betrayal of an A, you KNOW what it does to the BS. So you have more knowledge when you make your CHOICE to have a "revenge" A, regardless of the situation.

That's my take on it.

So, that's the reason for the lack of encouragement in the recovery process as compared to the original WS in the forum?

You have a higher standard to live up to, like it or not.

And since you knew, you get a stronger message.

I'm trying to think of something that it's like.....

Like a drug counselor becoming a drug addict.

ETA: That being said, I still think that you should work to recover your M. But no sympathy on the ONS, regardless of the reason. Sorry.

Sorry Introvert if I make you repeat stuff, but can you tell me more about your story. I was reading it for awhile and then got sucked back into my own stuff...did you have a ONS after d-day with your WW? What's the timeline here? I think that may have to do with the decision of whether or not it is viewed as "revenge."

HTM

Hick,

This is the original thread where it was discussed...

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2091305&fpart=1




My issue isn't so much the 2x4's and such (I expect them like any WS). The issue is the whole "revenge" factor. It seems like a WS can use "not meeting my EN's" as a means to get there foot in the door for help in recovery from the forum members...but, a BS not having his EN's of SF met does not seem to fit the bill for any help in recovery. How come?

I do aknowledge (sp) the first reply to me in this thread,onlyUcan...thank you. And you are right if recovery was the goal for the BS. You are assuming that I knew that I would be in recovery right now. When I had the ONS, there was NO WAY IN H3LL I was thinking about recovering. I also think that you helped me in proving my point with your post...it seems that there is some "leeway" in the fact that the ignorance is bliss excuse can be used by the original WS (to a varied extent, anyway).

I wonder if the BS is not allowed in because the forum assumes that if you are a BS, then you have been here long enough to know the basic concepts. If you know the basic concepts, then you really should know that going outside of your M is not going to help...talking with your spouse about unmet ENs is the way to go.

With that said, I did read some of your earlier posts and I tend to think you acted in a state of shock...kind of one of those "OMG, what just happened here...I'm going to find SOMETHING that I can grab onto and do it." I did this after my mom died. I just flipped out looking for something to hold on to.

As people say, there are REASONS for an A (or ONS), but no excuses. You were NOT divorced. You were still married which means that technically, your A isn't any better (or worse) than your WW. Maybe people are hearing your "reasons" more as "excuses." I KNOW that won't fly here.

I really think that you may not consciously have been thinking revenge, but you may have acted out of an unconscious need to get back at her...kind of an "in your face, I'm done with you and have moved on already" moves.

Just my thoughts.

That's a fair assesment, but it begs the question...

If WW had an affair, and my not meeting her EN's was part of what lead to the affair...then why isn't hers called a "revenge" affair for basically doing the same thing in retaliation to me not meeting her needs?


edit: Just to add...I wasn't aware of MB until after my ONS.

I think that WS wouldn't be taking out revenge merely because it hadn't been done to her yet.

At the same time, yes, I think that the first A could be seen as revenge against the BS for not meeting ENs. I think that most of the time it boils down to the idea of knowledge...

If you have the first A, you know it is wrong but I think it is assumed that you don't have the full knowledge of its impact. If you have the second A (are originally the BS), you know exactly what you are doing and maybe are MORE culpable?

Tough one.

But even if you thought that you wouldn't be in Recovery, the ONS then speaks to your moral code. Do you sleep with someone while you are still M? That's the way I would look at it personally. Everything I do answers to my own Integrity. I cannot use another's actions against me to excuse what I have done. Even if I am angry, resentful, feel justified, etc.

This is how I kept from having a "revenge" A. I was angry enough to do it, but recognized that God still holds me accountable and I made my own promises and vows, even if my WS chose not to honor them. And if you don't believe in God, you still have to live with yourself and what you choose. KWIM?

If you had come here as a WS with your ONS and a repentant heart, you're right, you probably would have received a better response about it. It's like the oldest child doing something terrible and the 2nd oldest doing the same exact thing. We get madder at the 2nd child because he/she WATCHED the destruction and consequences of the 1st child so WHY would they make that choice.

That's just my opinion.

That's cool.

I do however take exception to the reasoning for the first affair. Ignorance is not bliss. Try telling a judge that you should get less prison time for dealing coke, because you were the first to do it and didn't know the law...and the 2nd guy should get more time because he knew how much trouble I was in.

Ws's know how much hurt they will instill by having the affair, whether they do it first or second.

Introvert,

I think in your timeline for your ONS, it probably isn't too unusual for a BS to have a ONS after a d-day.

That's why the advice on this website is to not make any opposite-sex contact, don't go off and find comfort with members of the opposite sex, etc. Because BS types are very vulnerable to this type of behavior.

One of the things that you were told was that you were trying to justify your behavior. That you were still married, and you should not have had sex with anyone other than your wife because you were married.

See, at MB, most of the folks strongly discourage any type of dating or flirting, etc., behavior until the ink is dried on the DIVORCE PAPERWORK. I have to agree with that. See, you had a chance at recovery, and you should have controlled that anger, that frustration, and that impulsivity. Now, you're trying to justify it all......and doing kind of a crappy job of it.

You said of the divorce "it is only a piece of paper". That makes your marriage "only a piece of paper". But its not. And because your WW broke her vows does not mean the marriage is over just because

You are angry
She decided
You decided
She says ILYBINILWY
She is in a fog
The moon is in Virgo and Saturn is in the fourth house


A marriage is a legal contract, as well as a personal commitment. You exchanged sacred vows - and both of you agreed to them. They are not severed because someone broke one. That does not legally constitute a "divorce". It might constitute a hearty LoveBusting Festival, certainly!!!!! But if a divorce was automatic upon the breaking of one wedding vow, we would be back at the alter fairly often, because in there are the "honor, cherish" and all sorts of other vows that we certainly break often enough, and we don't go running down the streets screaming about.

Now, which one of you broke the vows first, REALLY? Did you break any of the "honor, cherish" and other stuff before her affair????? Examine your behavior carefully, because if you failed to meet her EN's, if you didn't cherish her for even one day or you LB'd at some point, there may be a case for the breaking of the vows.

She broke a big vow. Yep. The biggie.

I'm not saying she didn't. But.....



So. Did. You.

You broke the very same vow, out of anger and contempt, impulsively and purposely.

And any attempt at justification is illegitimate.

As illegitimate as her attempts. You owe her the same restitution that she owes you, even if right now it appears that she is not as "bothered" by it. She may very well feel it is a "lesser sin", as do you.

Somewhere, did someone list the sins in order of "bigger" to "lesser"???? Like, this adultery is a "big" adultery, but this adultery is a "non issue" adultery?

I thought it was adultery - that's it. The book doesn't say, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, but it doesn't really count if ....."

It all counts, Introvert.

I don't get behind the situational ethics gig.

Either you are ethical, or you aren't.


So own this, Introvert.

Regardless of how you were feeling at the time, what condition you thought your marriage was in, how your WW took it at the time, and where you think your wife is with it now.

You own it.

As for the reaction to the affair? It has to do with the attempt to justify it. Nothing more. Don't try to read anything into it beyond that. I saw the same things others saw.

To say it was a "non issue" was a mistake. Even if it was from a professional. Because it is an issue you both will need to address, as it is part of the marital history now.

Own it, use the ownership principals with it, and take it to your wife with the appropriate humility. I think if you do that, she will see her own way toward ownership of her own affair a little more clearly. And you might get a little farther down the recovery highway.

SB




BTW - if you were a WH, I would say the very same thing. Own it. My stance would not change.

Intovert,
You had the ons because your WW did not offer you any form of just compensation for her A.

It was an effort to relay to her exactly how much pain you felt.

Sad but, tit for tat.

I hope you have learned that it's all about your boundaries, not someone else's definition.

All Blessings,
Jerry

But you were aware of the pain an affair causes.

Point being, you should know better.

If you know what it feels like to place your hand in a fire, you should not convince someone else to do so.

Just my opinion. You are being held to a higher standard due to your experience.

Absolutely excellent post, SB.

Very little time to write.

WW was wrong to have PA.

BH was wrong to have RA.

And as a BH you knew how devastating it was to have a spouse cheat on their spouse but went and did it anyway.

There is no justification for affairs, only giving excuses and trying to rationalize the guilt.

I agree with all of you about how I should be owning what I did...but, you guys seem to be looking past the fact that I have/am already owning it. This is my point. If I were simply a WS and not a BS who had a ONS, and were doing everything I am doing to aide recovery in my M, you would all be getting behind me and supporting me...but because you have all thrown that blanket "revenge" tag to it, all I get is "you should have known better". WE ALL SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. Saying that my ONS is worse than my WW's 4 month A simply because "I should have known better" is a load of crap, and hypocritical for ANY WS/FWS in this forum to be discounting the fact that I had an A for the same reason my WW had an A....unmet EN's. Not for "revenge".

I don't understand why it is that you seem to think that I have something to hide, and that I'm trying to sugarcoat what I did...I have no reason to lie about it or tell you anything other than the truth about how I was feeling at the time of the ONS. Don't belive me...ask me!!! It was not about revenge...WW was in a 4 month relationship EA/PA with another man, was not living at home and I thought that it was time to move on with my life. SHE ALREADY MADE IT CLEAR THAT SHE WAS LEAVING ME!!!! You can all say "well you were still legally married" all you want, and if you think that the legal divorce paperwork has to be finalized before starting another relationship then fine...but, I was NOT going to wait until WW decided to let me off the hook and agree to finalize a divorce before I tried to find happiness through other means.

Do I feel guilt now that I'm in recovery with W...yes. If WW was still in the affair with OM, and I was dating and moving on with other relationships and such, would I feel guilt....h3ll no.

I'm sorry folks, but it takes 2 people to be in a marital union, and once 1 of those people end that union (through whatever means), the other person should be free to find their pursuit of happiness as well.

I'm going to be honest with you guys and say that I personally feel that many people here that are so bound and determined to say that the "divorce has to legally be finalized before being in another relationship" may be people that are either...

a) Using religion as their reason, which is fine.

b) Using legal reasons...which I find ludicrus (sp). Why
anyone would say "your legally married" after the whole 50/50 agreement that a marriage is pretty much based on was turned into 0/100 when WS left, is beyond me.

or

c) People that have been with their spouses for so long that they are afraid of the prospect of being in a new relationship and have a fear of the unknown.

Not saying my a,b,c list is in any way fact and covers everyone here, but I think there is something more to people's reasons than they are actually giving.

I don't think your ONS is by any means worse than your WW's affair. I do think that they are both A's and what bothers me is that you are trying so hard to rationalize what you did instead of accepting that it was wrong.

You do not sound remorseful in your posts, but you sound angry about the label that your ONS is given. Why does it matter so much if it was called a RA or a BSA? I get that you do not think revenge was involved, but the simple act that you did back to someone what they did to you is where I think the RA label comes in, even if your motive at the time was not revenge but to just try to make yourself feel better in such a horribly painful time.

I am not trying to say that you are not remorseful, but you just don't sound like it in your posts. You keep saying how your marriage was ended by your wife. If your marriage was ended then why are you trying to recover it? If a marriage ends with an act of betrayal, does a marriage begin when a couple enters a faithful relationship? As for the 50/50 agreement, I think any marriage is doomed if each partner is only giving 50/50. I think that you both have to given 100 percent and when one person is lacking the other person needs to work even harder to get them back to the 100 percent.

I do have a question for those who say that you have to wait until the divorce is legally finalized before you can enter another relationship...

If you were in a long term, and thought to be monogomis (sp sucks today) relationship with someone, but were not married. You didn't exchange vows...you didn't "commit" for life, "till death do us part". It would not be an affair if you or your BF/GF had an EA/PA with someone outside of the relationship?

I'm not angry about the label the affair is given. I simply think that it is an incorrect label...if you label a BA having an affair "revenge", then so should the original affair that WS had. And, I did not try to "give back to someone that they did to me" ..that is an incorrect judgement. WW had nothing to do with what I did...the OW was the target of my actions that night...not WW. I'm not sure how you have come to the conclusion that I am not remorseful...can you elaborate?

I am trying to recover my M because W has asked me to try to recover with her and has asked for another chance...if she didn't do that, I would not be in recovery with her.