TL, <BR>You react much like my W. I do empathize with you. I found that the only way for me to get over my rage was to read my Bible. I went to my concordance and looked up forgiveness. I periodically get upset at what my W has done. It is proper to get angry but the key is not to sin. You keep calling Mia the adulteress. She has sinned. You must not hurt yourself by trying to change that which is out of your control. You sound like you want the peace that can only be found in Jesus. Your pain will never completely go away a least in this part of your existence. It will go away after judgement day.<P>Peace be with you.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

TL<P>What are you going to do if Mia calls your H and tells him what you did? Do you have a plan of action? I mean, he might really just pick up and go now. She probably was telling you the truth about it being over, but now she has a real reason to contact him again. What do you suppose will happen? I know you want some changes in your life, but is THAT what you wanted?<P>I can appreciate how angry you are, but two wrongs never have made a right. Good luck and I hope it goes OK. Something tells me that he will be steaming if/when he finds out. You better be prepared.

TL,<P>I did NOT call YOU Hitler, but I was referring to the fact that I feel like you think I am as bad as Hitler... <P>oh brother, I can't even explain... <P>Thing is, I honestly do understand your pain, what I don't understand is the lack of compassion for another HUMAN BEING, no matter what she has done. <P>I couldn't feel worse about my situation, which I know falls on deaf ears. <P>And now I really will stay away from this thread... <P>again, sorry. <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

I am one of those betrayed who would give almost anything to have my H home - even if "only" for the kids. My most important "emotional need" is that my H be a good and loving father, and I am willing to put up with almost any other faults if he would return to that state. I kick myself every day for ever having confronted him - if I had not, and if I had never questioned his absences, he might still be here today, and his kids would be happy and not disillusioned, and I can't imagine myself being any more miserable than I am now.<P>I, too, hate the OW. I haven't called her and berated her, though I have certainly thought of it. I am not convinced that either she or my H are feeling any pain, since even after a year long affair and 5-8 months of living together, they are off somewhere enjoying a vacation together, perhaps celebrating their "anniversary". I am not convinced that they will ever feel any pain or remorse. I am not convinced that she has a conscience, and I fear that my H has lost his. But I would probably try to save her life if she were choking, because she has already made her children lose their father, and I wouldn't want them to lose their mother, too, such as she is.

Cristalle:<P>No shame here; that <B>was</B> nice. I don't have a lot of patience for people who have no room in their hearts for anything but hate. I really pity her, but not as much as I pity her husband.<BR>

double post<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited October 15, 1999).]

Hey all,<P>TL is venting here. She is saying some things that almost all of us have probably felt at one time or another.<BR>I think she acted wrongly in calling the ow, but it's done now. She will have to learn to act a bit more rationally in the future or she will suffer much longer than she needs to, but the emotions she is displaying now are perfectly normal.<P>How many of you felt like blowing your brains out at one time during all of this? Or blowing the op away? Or even your spouse? If even for just a moment?<P>TL, go ahead & scream & yell here. You are very crushed by all of this. Been there, done that, saw the movie, got the t-shirt, etc. You will have to let go of some of the anger though. You are letting the ow control your life & she isn't even around.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Chris:<P>True enough - Mia isn't around, but she's very much in my H's heart. And I will make the leap and assume that she hasn't told my H of the phone call or I'm sure he would of course run to her defense. So, again, for WhoDat, that makes Mia the "angel" here and I'm the *****!<P>God, don't you all think I know how absolutely horrible I sound? I have to look in the mirror every morning and hate the woman I've become because of all of this. I have to see my husband's unwillingness to communicate on any level (except where the kids are concerned) on a daily basis. We start the day in silence. We end the day in silence. If I approach him for answers to my seemingly neverending questions, I get the eyes rolling in the back of his head, and get told to just let it go. I can't let it go. I want those answers. I've tried to write a list of questions down, a few at a time, and he just leaves them on the table - unanswered He's told me I have never been able to talk to him or listen at the same level as Mia has. <P>I'm sorry for feeling the way I do. I feel nothing but contempt for Mia. And maybe you all are right in saying some of that blame has to be directed towards my husband. And, of course, I should take some of the blame for the state my marriage is in. In the end, does any of this admission matter? I cannot change the way my H feels can I?

I am a former OW who is now with my affair partner. His W did contact me by calling several times after finding out and even confronted me in person. One time she tried to tear the rings he had given me off my finger. I never responded. I spoke very little every time. I answered questions as truthfully as I could but I did not get into any kind of a catfight now matter what she said. Now he is with me and some of the things she said have been totally proven by facts to be lies. Without going into my affair, I do really believe with all my heart that how she acted in attacking me verbally several times actually pushed her STBXH to me. Two of the times she did it was when he and I had broken things off and he was really shocked and surprised that she acted as she did. You all can can have your own ideas about whether what she did was right or wrong. I'm just telling you what she did and what I think happened as a result. Maybe that will help some of you deal with these things. If you don't want to get him feeling sorry for the OW, I would say don't attack her. It just makes you look bad.

Delphi - thanks for the insight from the OW's point of view. Perhaps Mia is reading this post and learning from it. So, in your opinion, you are telling me that I am driving my husband right back into her arms...Is that what I read?

I believe it's spossible. If you want answers from him you must NOT snap or go hysterical/crazy when he gives them to you. Show him he can trust you with anything.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, in your opinion, you are telling me that I am driving my husband right back into her arms...Is that what I read?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>TL... I tried to tell you something similar earlier, but you’ve been so focused on one small aspect of my posts that you didn’t see it. You still are. If you’ll go back and look, I hope you’ll notice I didn’t start to get nasty until your incredible hatred was getting too much for me to bear.<P>I’ll leave you alone now, though... you DO need to be angry and hurt... but at some point, something besides hate needs to find its way into your heart. From your “mirror” post above, it looks like you want it to happen. Only you can make it so.<P>

Chris: Thanks for acknowledging that I have a right to my out of control feelings. I called my H a few minutes ago and he's on his way home. He sounded annoyed and short with me, so perhaps Mia did call him, or this is his usual mood nowadays. Can't unring the bell can I? <P>

WhoDat:<P>I know you are only giving me advise that may help me see through my anger. I will not take offense to anything you say, however, I don't think you should take pity on my husband. He was, after all, a willing partner in crime wasn't he. Maybe he does deserve better than me. If this is truely how he has felt, then he should have been honest and told me how miserable he was instead of being an adulterer. The deception has hurt far worse than the truth. And right now, I am still dealing with deception and half truths.

TL,<BR>Relax! I for one wouldn't even hear the cries for help from the OM if he was up to his B*** (oops I mean eyeballs) in quicksand. And for all that are hollier than thou I am a christian, however that does not mean I am perfect. This infidelity thing just cuts to the quick! I understand completeley where the naysayers are coming <BR>, but we all have to process it in our way. I would NEVER act on all the thoughts I have had and still do not think they are right. We all have to understand the pain and frustration we are dealing with(including the betrayers)do wicked things to us.

TL, <P>I don't have much to add over what others have already stated. I think you know what needs to be done in order for your marriage to heal. <P>Hurt, anger, resentment, it's all a part of the process. Forgiveness is too. And I think you know that. <P>I don't know if me being a betrayed man handles this differently than you a betrayed women does. I think women need more answers than men do. I think women need more details than men do. <P>I do know we heal the same. Getting your answers and getting through this anger is something you should do quickly or hope will fade for reconciliation. <P>I suggest you search for your part in your failing marriage. Infidelity is a symptom of a failing marriage NOT the cause. Once you recognize your part you can help your husband recognize his (and I don't mean the affair). I think when you really understand your role in this, your anger will subside and healing can begin. That's how I was able to get through the initial anger. <P>Your pain is real and we all know how it feels. We are just trying to help in healing. Believe it or not, you have many things going for you. <P>It is up to you if you want this marriage to be saved. You can save it and have a better marriage than you thought possible.<P>SHA<P><p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited October 15, 1999).]

TL, thanks for receiving my response as an OW so kindly. God knows there's enough hurt for everyone here. Yes, you are driving him into her arms. You are making him feel protective of her. You are attacking her, a woman he has feelings for. If she attacked you, he would feel protective of you. Now I know you feel she has attacked you by sleeping with your husband, but he doesn't see it that way. He is a man and he wants to protect the women he loves. If you attack her, he will want to protect her. Trust me, it happened exactly this way. I didn't encourage it but sure enough, he felt protective of me and even apologized to me for her attacking me every time she did. He felt like it was his fault that she was attacking me. Your H, I'll bet you, feels responsible for your attack on Mia and feels bad for her. Forget whether it's fair or not and think about what you really want to happen in the end. Then do what you have to do to make that happen. Fair has nothing to do with it. I am sure his W doesn't think it's fair that he is with me but he is. So listen and learn.

I just read some of your earlier posts. I am sure Mia did tell him of your call. He may not admit it but I'll bet she did. So if I were you, I would tell him that you did it before he confronts you. I would apologize for doing it. I know this will stick in your craw, but do you want to save your marriage? If you do, you need to apologize to your H for calling Mia. You need to tell him that you snapped, that you love him so much that you lost it, and that you won't do it again. That you know it's between you two and that is where you want it to stay. Pleasat believe me. He feels protective of Mia. That is a man's way and you can't change it. So, either live with it and work with it to your advantage, or have things go very badly. I'm someone who is not too dumb and who has seen it and understand it, at least in my situation which I think is like many.<P>Del

Hi Tired Lady -<P>I have tears coming down because I feel your emotions so strongly through your words here....It's such a feeling of helplessness and striking out at OW is the only route to some sort of control or action YOU can do. It must seem like you are in a box....with no give from any side.<P>Is that how you feel, or am I off base here? I remember being paralized for a time....between shock, hurt and just plain not knowing what to do. The worst part for was that my H wouldn't talk with me about "us"...he wouldn't open up at all, let alone answer my questions. I gave up the "affair" questions and tried to go at things from just an "our problems" and let's fix them perspective.....that didn't open H up either. Not yet anyway!!!<P>Have you tried that? Tried to talk and work out the original marriage problems and needs stuff? Maybe he would address that if the negativity "talk" about the affair is not part of it? I say this only because it seems to be such a roadblock to communication in so many cases to talk of "the affair" because of the guilt factor or the pain factors. Maybe a way to stop the "starting and ending the day in silence" cycle that is happening is to start communicating on a basic level between you and him...your issues - not any issues with outside influence (ie OW) at the moment.<P>Only when your H feels safe with you and your relationship, will he be able to open up with the truth of why and what in regards to the affair. Do you understand what I mean? <P>You want to jump in with both feet and get all the details of it so you feel that you finally have honesty...at least that's what you hope. This can't happen without you both building some basic friendship back up between you. Then with that little bond will come the honesty you crave.<P>The way it is now, is just beating your head againt a rock.....he can not give you what you want and need because he is afraid of the past unhappiness and the problems eroding the marriage before the affair will just continue - You cannot give him what he wants and needs because you are afraid that you won't ever have honesty from him and he will continue to lie and cheat. It's a big ole' logjam!!! And you're both contributing to it.<P>It can be pushed out of the way....it is not a hopeless situation, really TL - it isn't!! <P>You have both been stuck in this stagnant opposition for some time now and as is quite evident - nothing is being accomplished!! The exact opposite is, in fact occurring - you are both doing even more damage to each other.<P>So, it seems that it's time to look for a different approach to the situation.<P>You are feeling things that are valid, have no doubt....BUT you also need to take that energy of anger and use it to move your life in the direction you want it to go. H must do that also. Since I am talking with you...it seems that you are in the position to open yourself up to help from others, perhaps H is not. So you can guide him and the marriage along different lines if you CHOOSE to do so.<P>Some ideas I have are to either talk or write to H and let him know that the way things have been handled by BOTH of you so far is definitely not working. Change in both of your attitudes and communications are needed.<P>It's time to try to be a friend instead of an enemy to each other. After all you two did, at some time in your relationship know how to show your love for each other and your respect and concern for each other's feelings. That is something that should take priority again.....the partnership/the team.<P>It's there TL, it's just buried under all that life and bad choices have thrown at you.....it can be dug up and polished so that it can shine again.<P>It will just have to be dug up by you and H working hard and "throwing the dirt off" (meaning OW thoughts for now).<P>Once the "dirt's out of the way (OW out of the forefront of your thoughts.) it will be much easier to find out how the dirt got on top of your marriage when you start to see the shine again - even if its only a glimmer.<P>Does this make sense and help in any way? I hope so because I want so much for you two to overcome this.....it is a very good thing that you are together. I only wish I had the situation you have. There is hope there TL - ther really is!!!<P>One thing that you said o Chris in a reply was "I cannot change the way my H feels can I?"<P>My answer to that is "YOU DAMN WELL CAN!!" and we will help if you want...<BR>But we can't do it....this is where you can have control if you choose to take it. By changing your attitude and perspective...you CAN effect his!!!!<P>By changing your focus from OW to YOU AND H - you can make that his focus also!! <P>The only way to do that is to become someone that you would want to be a friend to.....Do you fit that description in your current state of mind? Absolutely not!! You said yourself that you don't even want to look in the mirror at who you've becomes....so, let's get rid of that image!!!! Let's turn off some of the heaviness caused by the bad feelings around to bring some lightheartedness into your life...you can't keep yourself under this "rock" of anger and hurt...it will kill you - let alone your love and marriage!! I don't want to see that.<P>God is with you and I really don't think that He wants you to stay in this suffrage.....Perhaps it is Strength that you are to attain from this hell....<P>Please TL, you must try...we will all help you. We see through the anger and pain...we see that good person that you are!! Let HER OUT AGAIN!!!!!<P>BIG HUGS and Strength to you,<P>Sheba<P>

hello tl,<BR>I am so sorry that you are still frustrated with all this. I was praying to return and read that your H was responding. I sure don't blame you for what you did, and I did the same. The situation was quite different in that the affairs were yrs ago, h did not care about their feelings. I did not yell at them, was calm and let them talk. But I did not hear what I wanted to hear-which was an apology. <BR>In retrospect I would never have called the few I did. It was not healthy for me. One stated she thought I was crazy, bringing all this up. Hey, just what I needed to hear to heal. <BR>Since it brought such little satisfaction, I did not do it again. I guess we all need to find what helps us heal? Each of us has our own way of expressing our pain and hurt, and our own ways of working toward having a healthy relationship. <BR>Hang in ther tl, you'll be just fine. (((hugs))) cl