Catperson...that is a very helpful reply...useful advice for me to follow.
When, or if, it came to it...I don't think DD13 would actually wish to live with her mother, after a few days or weeks to think about it.
In fact, yesterday she said she would like to sell her pony in 2 years and have an Arab. She must realise that this will be very unlikely if she lives with her mum.

I will definitely look at "daughters .com" later.
Thank you very much for your comments and advice.

Hey, Nagrom...

I think Cat's advice is right on...as usual.

I wanted to offer another consequence to truancy (and I'm sorry this issue still plagues your family)...

Go with her to school. Sit in her classes all day. Right beside her. Same for lunch, free periods.

Do this for one or two days and I don't think you'll have a truancy problem.

Also, I can understand where the urge to have WW take care of DD13...I believe that's what is hurting DD13 most is WW's disconnection...so the acting out, the justifying, the harming her own future as if she can make WW hurt for her, as she does for WW.

So you want to for ce a relationship where none exists right now.

You're not that powerful...nor is DD22 or MIL...though we all would LOVE to be...to help DD13. WW's relationship with DD13 is her own...and no one can control it--even DD13 only can control her half.

Show her this power she has...for what she chooses to do is important...even truancy...and in YOUR relationship with her, you're willing to go the distance...because you believe in her, stand beside her (literally)...and reassure her that what isn't right now (her relationship with her mother) doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Just for today, we do our part, we don't harm ourselves, we love and hold ourselves to behaving well (for our sake) even when an adult in her life is behaving badly.

And remember...this would be a tough time in DD's life even without the added crap that WW is dishing out...it's compounded...wouldn't be blissful, anyway, 'k?

Daughter's grow, form their own identity, by pushing against their mothers (their definers) during the teenaged years. DD13 is pushing against air...WW isn't there for her. You are. You're gonna be pushed against. Acknowledge those pushes as choices, her own power, and example with your own choices...loving, not enabling.

Predetermine your progressive boundary enforcements...not to control her, or get her to stop/start doing...do so because you want her to learn healthy boundary enforcements...for a lifetime.

I know it crushes your heart, maybe kicks in your ire for what your WW is choosing. Share what you're feeling with all your kids...own what hurts and why...so they can share their stuff, also, with you.

Don't make WW all powerful...the one doing to...full of if only's and what if's...keep your power and show your kids you stand, anyway.

LA

LA,
Its good of you to "pop in" now and again with sound and helpful advice.
You had suggested a while back that I should go to school with DD13 and sit beside her in class.
I think now is the time to seriously consider it. Today was another bad day with DD22 having to drive here and take DD13 to school...that was after I had persuaded DD13 to return home, after dissappearing.... to chat about it without mentioning I had been in contact with DD22!
DD22 agrees with the suggestion of sitting in class with DD13 and will help if necessary.May first threaten DD13 with this and see if that works first.
WW fetched DD13 from school today to take her to dd22's for the night...so DD22 can ensure she goes to school. I was given a list of school clothes to put by the gate for WW to pick up on way to collect DD. But DD13 decided she wanted other clothes as well! so WW had to drive her back here ...then back to DD22's. Then of course WW had to drive all the way back home! WW also drove DD13 to school yesterday morning...and called in to discuss the matter with the staff. sO ww has suddenly become more involved.
But not sure what will happen when WW moves soon to nearer the town..about 16 miles away..and through busy traffic. Contact with her daughter(s)will not be so easy.

I really think that one of the reasons my daughter turned out ok is that I've told her all her life that she is my number one job. That if anything comes up to do with her, I will drop everything else to take care of her and her issues. For example, I told her if I ever found out she skipped school, I would quit my job and start following her every.single.day to make sure she makes it through public school. I also told her I would sit in her class with her if she ever skipped. I really think that attitude had a lot to do with her assumption that there is no choice in the matter. LOL, thank goodness she never tested me on it, cos I can't afford to quit my job! But bottom line, it's all about my reassuring her that she is my number one priority for as long as I am responsible for her. I really think that if you give a child nothing but love, all will resolve itself - they only need to know they're loved. Divorce or separation ALWAYS puts doubt in the kids' minds about their being responsible for the problems. "If I wasn't here..."

That's why I say you need to be the solid rock for her. Strict, loving, understanding, loving, tough, loving.

Of course, if drugs are involved, you're no longer dealing with your daughter - but an addict, whose needs supercede what your real daughter wants to do. So if that happens, you'll need a different plan.

But it sounds like it's working out.

Thanks catperson,
DD13 often tells me how much she loves me and I always say the same to her. On odd occasions I hav'nt, or hesitate, and that obviously upsets her.
I show I love her and probably do too much for her.
I find if I "put my foot down" now and again, am strict...and say NO...even if she argues and I then have to be very firm...she usually accepts it...and later all is fine, loving and friendly.
But I feel she often gives the effect of not loving me when she truants and other things that make life very difficult for me..and she must know how much it is hurting me!.

The 2 problems now are..
Truanting and missing lessons, and
mixing with the streetwise crowd...which I try and control.Her pony is not her priorty at the moment.
She has a few very good friends...but all live away from our village.
Being strict is not easy.
I don't think drugs are involved yet.
Thanks again for you helpful and supportive advice.

Have you told her this directly? Girls always want their father to admire them, whether they admit it or not.

Interesting comment.
I have once or twice said something similar to what I wrote down in my previous post. But it does not seem to have had any obvious positive effect on her.

Sounds like it is time to "No more pony"...no more lessons...when you're more invested in her taking them than she is...respect her choices.

Get out of the way of them.

If you said, "If you choose to go truant or disappear again, you'll be choosing to lose your riding lessons--do it again, you'll be choosing to lose your pony--do it after that, you'll choose to also lose your...(fill in her priorities...cell phone, computer time, ipod).

Or if the worse possible thing you can imagine is to sit by her in school...put it as the next-to-final boundary enforcement...before you hire a home-schooling tutor or tutor her yourself at home...then you really will be sitting by her through all her classes.

Or you could make these your NEXT progressive boundary enforcements. Organize them into a priority list...beginning with next one...

And verbalize what's required, when...and say, "I know you can meet the requirements. You can make it happen: No excuses."

She's pushing against you BECAUSE you're safe enough to do so...she KNOWS you love her...and she KNOWS you know she loves you. I'm with Cat...tell her what you feel at times. Not to manipulate changing her...to let her in on your own doubts...your feelings. Doesn't mean you don't believe fully she does love you...sometimes, sure doesn't feel like it.

If it feels like she's abandoning you when she disappears...state what that feels like, idenitfy and share your struggle as yours. Your fear.

If it feels like she doesn't respect you, explain how respect is part of love...

She's not old enough to drive (even in rural England), is she? Then you control how much time she spends with whom...your half...your influence...your imposed limitations.

Why don't you get an apartment in town like DD22 and have DD13 stay overnight in that place to make sure she gets to school? DD22 has her marriage and children, doesn't she? She's also your intermediary...

She's doing a lot of the effort of your wife's role...

Stop.

Respect.

DD22 and DD13 have their own relationship...with a lot of turbulence in it, as well, I'm sure. She may have been the little mother to DD13 her whole life, given the age difference...which can result in your wife feeling estranged, not a real mother to DD13...and DD13 resenting DD22 got their real mother as a real mother...

Intersecting stuff...ground up in the onslaught of adolescence, understanding separateness and identity, her own power and limits...man, you couldn't pay me enough to go back there again.



Do you usually say "I love you" to DD13 first or in response?

LA

LA, You say some interesting things.
I have threatened to take certain actions..such sell the pony. But I don't think DD13 takes the threats seriously.
Also...she has started to spend too much time with an underisable crowd of "barely" teenagers.
To deprive her of the pony will drive her further into bad company...I feel.

I like your idea of sitting with her in class..and if matters do not improve..is something I am really considering. DD22 als agrees and will help me get into school if need be.
I may use it as a threat initially...but carry it on through if that does,nt work.


Another matter..re WW.
T o recap..she was dumped by OM1 after about 7 months of affair.She then went on to OM2 and as far as I am aware this affair is still ongoing.
She moved out to a flat in Nov 2006 but has now to leave in a few days time. It appears she spends most days of the week at her flat, but most weekends at OM2's flat.
Now she is being evicted she has arranged to live at her sister's house in town.
I do wonder why she is not moving in with OM2 who has a flat in, or close to, the town.
I wonder if it is a legal thing..ie.is she concerned at losing out financially when / if divorce happens?.

I know the foregoing information mainly from remarks by DD13.
I never ask anything about WW and change the subject if she is ever mentioned.

LA, I forget to answer you last point.
I do usually respond to DD13's.."I love you dad" by telling that I love her.
Since you mentioned it..I have taken your advice and now also initiate these words!.

That's great! Please remember that, even if she acts like she's not hearing you, she is taking in every single word. And every time you tell her that or other such things, they add to her feeling of being loved and protected. It will add up in the end.

DD13 shouldn't take threats seriously.

She should take boundaries enforcements seriously.

Because they are outside of her control. She chooses, others choose.

Can you see where her dealing with her mother's terrible choices as NOT being a reflection on her, not within her control? See, you enforcing healthy boundaries examples that she only controls her half...and she has half of every relationship. And what others choose doesn't have to be about her...not the cause, control or cure.

She didn't make her mother leave, commit adultery...abandon. That's the key to abandonment, btw. That somehow we can make others abandon us.

When you enforce your predetermined, progressive boundaries...then you teach her that her choices have consequences (some natural and others logical)...not in her control. You enforcing your boundaries teaches her about boundaries and how to enforce them.

That she doesn't understand boundaries is obvious...and when we don't learn them as children, see them regularly exampled and enforced...what happens?

Respect her choices by enforcing the boundaries. See, she can't see where her mother has lost from her choices...and she has...in many ways. She can't see the consequences...other than your family's pain, your pain. Don't manipulate your DD13...respect her. She chooses...and she'll only understand how much she MATTERS through the consequences of her choices.

Keep your promises...just make sure to designate and order them as progressive, from a calm mind and loving heart...and do not let her down by not enforcing them.

You don't control her half any more than the outcome. That's the difference in manipulating (which is acting from fear) and acting from your own stuff (which is what boundaries are), which is from love and respect.

By doing so, you become the gravitational force...like your choice to say "I love you" first...because it's the ultimate "I" statement...doesn't mean you love because she loves you...means you choose to love.

Doesn't require the answer in kind...though it is often answered that way. Celebrates you. And your relationship with her.

I see DD13's choices as her acting just like WW...breaking promises, justifying, and through them, harming herself and those she loves most in this world. Trying on what she does not understand...trying to make it fit in the world...and not have consequences for it. She was left as if she didn't matter to WW...knowing she has power and limits, that she matters...no matter what others do and don't do...is what she wants to know the most.

Love truly, Nagrom. Consistently. With clarity.

Which is what I was wondering if you'd learned over these past two years...that you matter...that WW's choices are solely about herself, her fantasy, her stuff...not you doing? She wasn't honest with her family, didn't protect marital or personal boundaries, and stopped living in reality with integrity. She got lost. You didn't make her...nor did DD13. Up to her to find her way home.

Up to you to remain true to yourself, your choice to be the lighthouse. For both WW and DD13.

Shine, Nagrom. Act from love.

LA

Wow! What an excellent post LA. Powerful thoughts expressed magnificently.

Thank you!

Hello LA..I have read your post several times. I can see why Tyk spoke so highly of it.

"I see DD13's choices as her acting just like WW"....yes..exactly what I had felt.

Your last para sums it up. I don't think other people..even DD22...realise how much her abandonment by WW has affected her. I do...and probably I am not always as tough with her as I should be.

Enforcing boundaries..yes I need to follow closely the advice you give.
The last few days have been very difficult...running away with a 16 year old...police searches...found...
Mtg at school..school authorities still supportive and helpful...but for how long!?.
Hope she goes back to school tomorrow.
Thanks LA.

Can you take a few days off work and go with her to school? Mortify her with embarrassment so that she gives up running away. Tell her you'll take off work every time she does something like this; that she is your number one priority and you're not going to let her throw away all the love you've put into her.

About DD13 acting like WW...DD13 is a child...she's trying on roles, finding out the experience of "what does it feel like to abandon, disregard, cross big boundaries like Mom does" like a way to answer "How could she?" in a way.

In another, it's regular teenage behavior.

You pushing back ups her safety, lowers her fear...and no, won't be what she wakes up in the morning saying, "Oh, thank you for restricting me!!" She will years later, though.

My heart goes out to you with her running away. So darn hard for a parent. Time to sell the horse, Nagrom. You know it in your gut...push back...show her there are consequences, limits, outside of her control.

Be the hero you are...I bet she longs to see WW get consequences...help her to see those in place...loss of contact with you, loss of the constant blessing of DD13...loss of face, direction, integrity...natural consequences and logical ones.

Natural ones for DD13 running away...other kids' parents may restrict their kids from hanging with her...seen as bad influence...feared or otherwise...tough consequences out of our hands...because we ripple.

Don't hope she goes to school...take Cat's advice and go with her. Even if you weren't retired...go anyway.

Once you take these really tough actions, you'll see you are tougher than you think, stronger than you knew before, and that you continue to love well and truly...even if you think it makes you look like the bad guy.

You know you're not.

LA

I have no idea how my "saga" will end..so I would like to thank, at this stage, all those who have helped with advice and support....especially"Loving Anyway.
I have gone quiet mainly as I do not wish to talk about, or think about, mu WW any more than necessary.
If she were to ask to return to the marriage (most unlikely) I am not sure wether I would want her back now. Frank Pitman..referred to as an authority on the subject...said most WW's return to the marriage within 5 years. But from what I have read and seen I would doubt this?
T o recap briefly, WW became "officially" WW in April 2006...The affair ended in Sept 2006. There was no doubt another OM was lurking at the pub knowing that WW would be dumped!..he took her over in Sept 2006 and she is probably still with him most of the time.
WW left home in Nov 2006..so..unless I wish to divorce her , she cannotdivorce me till Nov 2011.

I will break here as comp often goes down!!
....

to continue...
Re dd13...now DD14.
She has become much more settled. DD22..and / or I intended to sit with her in class. But that became rather impossible as, although I was able to get her to school, the school were not always able to keep her in class. If THEY couldnt..then I would not have had a chance!
It transpired that , in more recent months, she had been involved with a 16 year old boy..who was excluded from school was on drugs and dealt in drugs.
About 6 weeks ago he was moved from the area and there was an immediate improvement in DD14,'s attitude.
There are still problems and minor "blips" but things are improving....fingers crossed!!
Again , thanks for all your help...I may wish to return again for more in due course!

{{{nagrom}}} you know you can always come here. Good luck.

thanks catperson...thats nice to know.