catperson recommended this book on another thread, and it is fascinating. Anyone willing to discuss this book?

One concept that really hit me was doing the emotional work for others. I was skeptical at first, but then I thought of a story my mom tells about my childhood. She knew that I understood words and could say them, but I wasn’t talking. When she tried to get me to express myself, my older brother would quickly chime in and tell her what I needed. I was allowing him to do all my talking for me. She decided the solution was to have him go stay with my grandparents for a week. In that week, I had to do my own talking if I expected to get what I wanted. It worked…and probably too well, since I haven’t stopped for long since!

I can see how I have done this on an emotional level with my husband. I have often commented that he is the calm and I am the storm. Unfortunately, I also equated calm as "good" and storm as "bad" in my own mind. I am so ready to change this dynamic in our relationship!

Exo,

I think it's a wonderful book and necessary to marriage building...understanding our long-standing dances in our marriage, and how they fit with how we danced our steps long before we met our spouses.

What other things did you equate bad and good in your marriage? Would you consider that eliminating LBs for you, not who you are, for you are a human being, not a storm, would make it so you act from respect of self, partner and marriage...not calm, not stormy? Different choices every day.

You encapsulated really well what I experienced and my perspective was four years ago. Changing my steps changed the whole dance.

LA

Exodus, your post on speech just hit me like a brick.

I am a twin and my brother and I had our own unspoken language for the longest time.


He and I communicate silently with mere glances and gestures, we understand each other perfectly.

The body language I received from my now ex-wife was oft misinterpreted and she learned quickly to use it aginst me.

However my twin and I still use the language when we have to cooperate on anything, like repairing a car. It's almost a dance to watch us hand each other tools and move about without speaking.

LA, I'm so glad you and pariah posted. This book has had such an impact. I'm excited to get others' perspective.

I can tell you about one change in steps that happened the day after I started reading the book.

The old dance went like this: Any problem in the marriage was mine. Since I was willing to accept the problem as mine, I felt responsible for coming up with a solution. My solution may or may not solve the problem, but I got no feedback one way or the other. If it was successful, great! If it wasn't, it was still my problem.

New Dance: He stated an issue. Instead of jumping into solution mode, I asked him what his solution was. He tried to turn it back on me to come up with an answer to the problem. I told him that I was comfortable with what was making him uncomfortable, but I was willing to try to make adjustments if he would clarify how he wanted it handled differently. He said that I had put him on the spot and he would have to get back with me. He hasn't gotten back to me yet, but I am looking forward to it. There is no telling how much time I have wasted creating and implementing faulty solutions based on what he doesn't want rather than from a position of knowing what he wants.

Pariah, you give a nice example of how great it is to be on the same page when it comes to communicating and how difficult it is when we are having communication breakdowns. From personal relationships to foreign policy, effective communication is so stinking essential.

Boy, am I on the same page as far as wanting to give my H solutions! I've learned here I need to stop doing it, but I see my H self-sabotaging, ALL the time! It drives me crazy to NOT give him advice, cos he keeps making so many mistakes. But I tried asking him what he was going to do instead of my 2 cents, and it really made a difference on him trusting himself.

The best thing I got out of the book was that, when you stop Giving all the time, you are actually HELPING the other person. Because no one wants to be in a dysfunctional dance all their lives. But thinking of it that way is about the only way I can make myself pull back from Giving all the time - telling myself that I'm doing it for them.

Exo,

Thank you for the opportunity to post to you because you were bold enough to start the thread!


I like how you illustrate Old Dance and New Dance.

This is old dance is a control freak's dream, btw...has that appeal if it's our fault, our power. Power = Solution = Good. Right. Feels like a false ownership. I think you nailed that. It isn't partnering, more like parenting...when your kid comes to you with a problem and you take it, solve it, teach from it.

Doesn't work in partnering (as you well showed) because it really doesn't include your partner, does it?


I like that you got the impact of the book and immediately acted differently.

At the same time I read Dance of Anger, I was also reading (shortly before) was "Fighting For Your Marriage" by Howard Markman. In there, he says that 90% of problems in marriage aren't to be solved but understood. That was a "Whoa!" moment for me, much like many in Dance of Anger.

When we're on task...problem...solve...problem...solve...90% seems like the floor dropping out...whah? Huh? And my inner control freak rather clinched up and prayed Dr. Markman wasn't close to correct.



And he was...for throughout the books I read after DDay, all of them said to listen and repeat...clarify or confirm and don't assume. Don't assume it's an issue which requires a solution..."I'm feeling blue today" doesn't require action...real connection says to share...and your H shared...listen, repeat, validate and acknowledge...seek first to understand, not to solve. Odds are, there's nothing to "solve"...so asking your H for his solution IS better than handing him one...what if there is no solution?

What if he wants to share he's angry with a coworker? Fearful of his boss? Do his feelings need to be solved or known? They are coming to him from his perception, his thoughts and beliefs...do those need to be solved or understood (acceptance is not approval).

Partnering is honoring your partner knowing they are equal to you...you're there for them, to know them and be known by them. The more we launch ourselves (in my case, drooling) at problems, the more we feel like the person is the problem...don't distinguish sharing from asking for resolution. Listen for the difference; make listening the difference.

Even in being listened and repeated back to, we can feel relief from our anxiety, our supposed issue...so we then know the difference and can say, "Thank you for listening like that. You helped me. This isn't a problem for me. I don't think I was listening to the coworker today...I think I was assuming HE had a problem for me to solve!"

It's amazing how our marital communication mirrors our work, social and parenting communication...we may think we're skillful in one and not the other...when we change our rules of respect, our approach, everything changes.

Oh, and check your belief in wasted time...you wasting time...because that belief can be a self-DJ which harms you and your half of the marriage.

What if no time is ever wasted? What if your previous mindset was yours, the best you had at the time, until you knew more, and are now doing better? What if without that time, you wouldn't have been open to Dance of Anger (or advice from anons on an internet board), wouldn't have felt the impact? Because it does take what it takes...and when you accept this in yourself, you'll accept it in your H, too. Otherwise, you'll see him as wasting his time, not getting it, you being ahead, him lagging behind, not caring...oh...gee...can hear what I did?

LOL

LA

catperson, thank you again for recommending this book. It has had a profound impact that I hope will continue to grow.

I understand where you are coming from, yet I don't consider my H a self-sabotager. When I look back, I think our dance is more about timing. He doesn't move as fast as I would like, so I have a tendency to jump in to fill the silence, or offer an opinion. So I have been trying, as you say,to hold on to my two cents... ask more questions and increase my listening. I don't know if he has noticed it yet, but I sure feel less pressure! LOL

Do you feel more guilt or fear when you pull back from your "giving" stance?

Your post is full of so much thought provoking information, LA. It's so true about most problems not needing a solution. "What is the problem" and "Let's try to understand this" seem very similar, but there is a different mode of thinking going on when we are looking for a solution versus when we are trying to simply understand.

I guess I consider it time wasted, because I know how frustrating that dance had become for me. I will eventually let go of that, but right now, in this "aha" moment, I find myself wishing I had seen it earlier.

I feel a greater sense of relief than anything. I'm also very hopeful, because as much pain as his EA caused, the aftermath has allowed him to see that he did share responsibility for the breakdown in our relationship prior to the A. It shattered both of our images of him as the eternal good guy. I think we are both ready for a new dance, so perhaps you are correct about it being a case of perfect timing rather than wasted time.

Most definitely guilt. I am all about Giving because I'm not as worthy as everyone else. My parents conditioned it in me, my life solidified it, and 30 years of marriage cemented it.

Oh, btw, I don't remember - maybe it was ears or jayne or LA - but I wasn't the person who first introduced that book, so the thanks should go to one of them. I'm just carrying on the good work!

Exo,

I agree with you--our first reaction when something really resonates in us is "Oh, why didn't I know this before. I needed it years ago." You nailed it as first reaction. You're on third or fourth now, correct?



Can you remember the old dance when it wasn't frustrating? We don't really do that which we do not want to do...even our dances. There's a false payoff in play for the downward spirals, and we chase them. We stop when we discover the false payoff and see it for what it is--because then it's not what we really want.

Then we begin upward spirals, instead.

Here's to your marital upward spiral, soul to soul, in your very human marriage, Exo.

LA

Even though you are just carrying on the good work, I am still glad that you mentioned it and I saw it.

I asked about guilt v. fear, because I feel both. Fear that if I don't "fix" it, it won't get fixed. LA hit on it immediately. Taking responsibility for all the problems gave me the power. I have always instinctivly known that I can't change someone else. I frame it as my issue, because I know I have the "power" to change my own behavior, and I will seek a resoltuion that gives me "control" over the outcome. It appears one of my biggest fears is being vulnerable. My guilt then kicks in because I can't change enough (power depleted), or in a manner that adequately "fixes" the problem (control diminished) leaving me feeling vulnerable after all.

It's really a dance I do with myself... take ownership of something that I can't "fix", beat myself up for not being able to "fix" it, then get angry because I'm always the one expected to "fix" things. A vicious cycle, I tell ya!

Agreed, and I think I just identified my payoff to cat. My mind tells me you saw it coming before I did though.


I pray so!


Thank you.

Did you do the family diagram? I found that very helpful in identifying where I have done this dance before in my FOO.

^ bump^

WOW

Thank you Cinders and Queenie for bumping this!

Exo,

I didn't see your post and to answer your question, no, I didn't do the diagramming...and now, I really want to!

Would you explain it, when you have time? In the first year or two of recovery, I was linking old and now like a flashbulb of epiphanies...seriously. Not so much in the last two years. And what I don't practice, I don't use much. Then I go into old patterns...no wonder, huh?

So I really appreciate you bringing this book back. And btw, I remember the woman at the gym, in the hot tub, who recommended it to me. I'm grateful to her, too.

Just like I am grateful to a poster here who recommended "Between Parent and Child" and each one who shared what lit them up. I love seeing the ripples.

Thank you for this thread.

LA

Happy to try and explain it, LA , but brace yourself. Explaining this will take a long post. The diagramming exercise is in the chapter about triangles (Thinking in Threes).

The story she was illustrating was the one of Mr. and Mrs. K, who were having marital problems. Mr. and Mrs. K had three children: Billy (8), Joe (6), and Ann (4). One of the major conflicts between Mr. and Mrs. K was a triangle created between Mr. K, Mrs. K, and Billy.

The triangle starts out with everyone feeling calm and connected. Billy does an eight-year-old thing, and Mr. K jumps on him with criticism. That creates conflict between the two of them, though both are still feeling calm and connected to Mr. K. Then Mrs. K comes to Billy's defense. That put Mr. K in conflict with both her and Billy, yet it increased the emotional intensity between Mrs. K and Billy (she's doing his emotional work for him).

Dr. Lerner walks them through the process of how to dissolve the triangle, but once that happens, Mr. K finds himself depressed, so Lerner utilizes the diagram. Her reasoning is, "when a child or spouse is under-functioning and has become the primary focus of our anger, worry, or concern, it is helpful to take a look at the larger family picture."

One question she asked was why Billy was targeted to become the "problem child" in the family, rather than his younger brother or sister.

Mr. K and Billy's conflicts often revolved around Billy being irresponsible. Both were male and both were oldest children. When Mr. K was 8, his father died. He became the "man of the house" and had to take on a lot of responsibility for his mother and two younger sisters. This shed light on the timing of when conflict arose between Mr. K and Billy and why responsibility was such a key theme. His depression after the conflicts were resolved was actually him mourning the loss of his father... the conflict with Billy had been the inappropriate expression of the same sorrow. Billy turning 8 triggered the pain of his father's death. He wasn't really angry that Billy wasn't responsible. He was angry that he didn't get to be a normal, irresponsible, 8 year old.

Not everything is so cut and dry, but the diagram will still help sort out possibilities. She places heavy emphasis on birth order. I am still trying to find an old psych textbook of mine that I know covers theories about birth order. I imagine culture is also a factor though she doesn't directly address it in "The Dance of Anger". I just started reading "The Dance of Connection", and she does talk about cultural influences in that one. Anyway, here are her instructions for the diagram.

"If you are feeling ambitious, you may want to draw a diagram of your own family, including, if you can, at least three generations. A complete family diagram would include the dates of births, deaths, serious illnesses, marriages, and divorces and the highest level of formal education for every member of the extended family, for as far back as you can go."

I made note of the people that had been considered under-functioners and who I felt the over-functioning person was for each of them. I definitely saw a pattern.

Guess I'll have to add "Between Parent and Child" to my reading list now! Since I am recommending "The Dance of Anger" to everyone these days, I guess I'll recommend that you read it again. I have to, because it was too full to digest in just one reading.

Thanks for sharing, LA.

You call that a long post?

Pshaw.

Heehee.

Okay, now I remember...and no, I didn't do the diagramming for my own family conflicts in this way because I didn't understand it...and you've explained it so well, I now do understand.

Thank you so much!

And I hadn't heard about Dance of Connection, either. Thank you for that, too.

I think that's why I didn't go back generationally, either...didn't know most of the info...had best guesses. Recently, my father wrote his travel memoirs and luckily, included much of this info at the beginning of them. I'm jazzed. So I'll do the generational tree with an eye to over and under, too...(I tie those to pursuer/distancer, btw).

My goal this winter is to re-organize all my books from the den to the garage. When I find it, I'll re-read it. I promise. I appreciate your suggestion and explanations very much.

LA

Heh... I forgot who I was typing to.


You are welcome, and I am so glad that it helped. It really did help me sort out where I had "done the dance" before... and how I may have learned the steps.


She has several "dance" books: Anger, Connection, Fear, Intimacy, and Deception. I'm so hooked, I might have to read them all!


What a cool resource to have! Have the memoirs exposed you to a side of your dad you weren't aware of before reading it? I'd like to hear what kind of experience you had doing the tree when you are done and if you feel like sharing.


Good luck with that. I can be organizationally challenged, so I am impressed when someone tackles such a task. Hope you run across Anger again. I'm thinking I could read it several times and still pick up new information I missed in previous readings!