Poor impulse control?

Exactly. To me this makes no sense. The husband is taking a job that pays less in a location that costs more to live. The wife has no assurance that she can get a job that pays what she makes now, so that is a double hit to income while increasing expenses. The daughter is well placed in school now with optimism but no guarantee she will be equally well positioned in the new location. All of that means this move is a HUGE risk.

I accept that I am risk averse. But I have read nothing that points to a major payoff to offset the clear and present risks.

It is not like the H is switching industries to something much more prevalent in SoCal than in FL. It is not like they are moving from North Dakota to SoCal. And it is not like their marriage is so strong that this can be seen as a joyful adventure. All I see is stress.

Hey Nia, are you around? Want to tell EO what it is like to move from a place where you are settled to "take a chance" on moving somewhere that MIGHT be better?

The XW used to think that big changes and new things were the key to happiness. "We just need a change of scenery...".

Yes... Expensive and logistically stressful events will make it all better.

Make a stand where you are now and either get the marriage on track or tell him to move wherever he wants to. You can tell him I said so.

You know, if I was reading all this on someone else's thread, I'd say, you don't sound like you have the whole story, would you consider snooping? He just sent me an email that on Monday, they are having a showcase for the agents, and the manager will give him an honest assessment after that. I'm hoping that he's trying to pave the way to back out gracefully. But I'm willing to wait and see.

I really understand what you are saying, and I'm not planning to get bullied into anything. My question is, I already understand my POV very well. What about the other side, that my lack of enthusiasm is taken as a lack of confidence in him and his ability to provide for our family? How would you convey to someone coming from that perspective that having a differnt preference or willingness to act is not a reflection on him and his abilities? Or is that too much like trying to change his mind?

One thing that IS a lot easier from a distance is that I'm a lot more comfortable during the dischord. It REALLY feels like it's not about me, not my problem to own. That my part is to bring my input. I CAN listen and repeat, instead of sharing my filter in the moment, because it's OKAY to not be understood. This has been a real good practice for me in loving detachment.

So you're not getting the whole story either? Or so it seems? Because I thought maybe his desire to move had long since been covered and I missed it. Sounds to me like maybe you're not totally clued in on his motivations either. That's no indictment of you or your ability to listen and process. Could be his failure to communicate effectively.

Again... Why the pressing, immediate need to move RIGHT NOW?

He says he can't go in 6 months because that would be pulling the kids out of school halfway during the school year.

He can't go in 1 year because this has been dragging on for far too long (You think?) and it has been so hard on him to keep going this long with no support.

He needs to go NOW because this is a unique opportunity for DD12, to get in with a top agency, and she may not be selected again if we go and come back. Even this time, the kids had to audition again, and DD7 was not selected this time, while she was last year. He says it's been a lifelong dream of his to live there, though he didn't say that until 2001, when the company he was working for was going out of business and selling its pieces, and he went to go look at buying a store from them. He's worked out there both before and after we got together.

DD12 wants to stay, but she knows it's not set in stone. DD7 wants to move to Las Vegas LOL.

Not saying that I agree with it, just repeating it back.

If your lack of enthusiasm seems to make him feel that you're undermining him, that's his insecurity showing. I'm guessing he's a pretty insecure guy. There's quite an age difference between you two and I'm wondering if that's not a contributing factor. He may view things as his last opportunity.

This whole thing screams for rational communication.

Boka, you're right, I forgot about that, but that was really big to him. Maybe there is more disconnect than I thought. Last year, we HAD to go because he was going to be 50, and it was "now or never." Now it's that he's 51, and this lifelong dream hasn't been fulfilled, and it's his last chance. Years ago, when we talked about it, I figured he meant when we retired, so I was more on board. We moved a lot several years ago, and I'd like to stay put until the kids graduate high school if we can.

Unfortunately, there are things that he's not so secure about. Like for example, he thinks he's not a handsome guy, when he really is. There is a lot that he is confident about, though, like being a great father and a hard worker. They always tell him he walks on water at work, because he dives into problems that intimidate his coworkers.

And the other reason that he wants to move now is because he's sick of my extended family. I made a commitment in MC that I won't ask him to get together with them anymore, and I've stuck to that.

That's it, now with the pressure and the threats. I have plans to go to the beach with DD7 and my brother, but I can't talk to him about this all right now. I wish I had no plans, could go to a meeting. But the beach with family is a great backup plan.

Wow a lot of activity on this thread from yesterday! Sorry I wasn't around to chime in.

Sorry if I say anything that's already been said...

I hear the Dave Ramsey discussion! I'm glad y'all are getting into that. I think he's great. Cat, I still plan to send you something when I get a chance! Yes as I understand it, the $1000 first step is for *just* emergencies, and Christmas and school clothes don't count as emergencies (they should be planned for). Then if you dip into it, you're back at that first step again of building up $1000 in savings again. It's supposed to be in a different account, that you can get to if needed but should be a little difficult. We put ours in a money market. We've since added to it even, to store some money that we don't need for a couple months.


Hey, we're going to Orlando Monday! Right now we're near Fort Walton. We check out of here Monday and drive to Orlando, go to Disney World Tuesday, and fly back Wednesday late afternoon. We're wondering what we can do Wednesday before we have o go to the airport. Can you go to the Space Center in that time?

Wow ears, I really don't know how to advise... I'm glad you have some calm rational folks here to talk to. I hate moving and so can understand that part... but I can also understand a life long dream to move somewhere, and I hear the rationale about the daughters' chances... not sure if that's reason enough though, and it's odd that you hadn't heard about this life long dream earlier.

What I *do* like is how you are able to stay calm and discuss it without AOs etc, and how you are not letting yourself be bullied into something you aren't enthusiastic about. Your concerns seem very valid, I think any mother would worry about the implications to the finances and the children's schooling, etc.

Note to hold: It isn't North Dakota, but it isn't SoCal either... H and I are moving to South Dakota!!!!!

I am glad that we were able to meet with MC by conference call. I am trying to come to terms with this lack of respect. I thought that I had already fought and won this war, against H thinking that I am nothing more than an extension of him, who can be bullied into going along with him. I am very much back in Withdrawl, in that looking at him is like looking at endless pain, stretching out into the past and future. I keep reminding myself that this is temporary, and everyone feels like this sometimes, and I know the road back well, and have what it takes to get there.

This is the part that gets to me the most. He told the MC that I said I would go this summer, until he got out there, and now I'm backing out on my word. He asks her, why would he trust me to wait a period of time, when I'm backing out now?

This was a an out-and-out lie, not a misunderstanding. I clarified to him that I said specifically, in word, in MC and in email, that I am NOT commiting to go at this time, and can forward him back the email with the date on it. I felt like a nut even listening to such an allegation, that I'm backing out after I said yes. I am disgusted with myself to be in such a position to defend myself like that. He is supposed to ally, my friend, my defender. But when I look at reality, he is trying to make me doubt my own sanity and my own recollection of my commitments.

H clarified that because I've said no but then gone along with him before, specifically that I was willing to move there last summer, that it meant to him that I was in effect saying yes to moving now, regardless of what I said with words. And now I'm backing out on that.

But he understands and will abide by not moving now if I am committed to go next summer, and stay for a minimum of one year. I said yes in the moment, because that makes sense intellectually, to try something out when it's that important to someone. But it is hard today to imagine a future where I feel happy with him. I understand he needed to know that he wasn't being dragged on indefinitely.

He is still VERY angry. Says that he feels like he'll have to out on a "dog and pony" show for a year now. As if I even want that. I want some stability instead of someone ready to bully me and walk out the door if I don't give in to their demands. I am very angry with myself, feel like I missed an important opportunity to say, "you're reaping what you sow. If you want to tell me about how things are going to be different, you better put actions to your words, because all I see right now is more reason to DIStrust you instead of trust you."

He's planning to fly back here today. In my head, I know we can work through this and whatever else comes in our path. I am in Withdrawal now, but I know that's temporary.

Jayne, I'm so sorry I missed you when you were down here. Thanks for that about the Dave Ramsey suggestion. I hope you have a great time at Disney! The Space Center is great, but after all that driving, going an hour and a half each way when you have a plane to catch can be exhausting. What about Downtown Disney or one of the water parks?

I'm so sorry. But I have hope. I think if he's with you for a year, you have a lot of time to get things right, he has time to come around to MB way. And to find a better job. And you'll be even stronger in a year to deal with California. Hang in there!

Thanks for the Orlando suggestions! I have no idea how far things are, so I don't know what's reasonable. (I also tend to plan to do more things than is reasonable, just in general, as Stella noticed!) The kids would *love* a waterpark.

When you mentioned withdrawal, I was reminded of the things you said to me when I said I felt like I was withdrawing. The reminder to do the 180, or the 90, and you or someone (LA?) wrote about finding a balance between pulling backward vs. standing still in the middle.

The stuff about him twisting your "words", saying you agreed when your words said "no" but claiming that your "no" doesn't mean "no", well, grrrrr! My inclination was to say "Let me worry about whether my words reflect what I mean. Just assume they do, because that is my intention from this point forward. If I don't use words that reflect what I mean, that's my problem; but your responsibility is to assume my words reflect what I'm thinking, because you can't read my mind."


If it's just a dog and pony how, then it isn't authentic! You don't want to uproot your life based on a lie, a veneer of a "nice" marriage that will not last! You haven't missed the opportunity to tell him anything. You can still tell him how you feel.

Him talking about a dog and pony show concerns me that he *will* try to put on an act of a nice marriage, that he won't be able to keep up and won't be sincere about. I suppose there's the hope of faking it till you make it, that maybe he'll enjoy having a better relationship enough to keep up the effort on his part.

Good luck on his return.

Cat, you're right, a year is plenty of time. In just two months, we had made a lot of progress.

I'm looking at this as a growth opportunity. At services this morning, the message was about the wheat that gets choked out by the weeds. How we need to avoid getting caught up in judgment, but instead give our trials to the Lord in prayer.

I believe that alcoholism is still the biggest threat to our marriage, even though H isn't drinking to excess today. This is my biggest fear going out there, that once he is out there, it will be like last summer, that he will feel like he has at his mercy and lash out in anger when I share my O&H about it and thoughtfully request that he cut back, and have drunken AOs at me, including abusive language, name-calling and physical intimidation, in front of the kids. I don't think I would have tolerated that had we been here and I had the support that I do here. Here I have friends I could stay with if push came to shove, and the kids could still keep going to their schools. I will need to create safety for myself if we move out there, like a plan of what to do if the marriage does turn abusive again. I have put our kids through a lot already.

I am grateful that the abusive behavior is not part of our marriage today. I believe that working together, we can make this part of our history instead of our future. He claims in MC that he does not have a drinking problem, that he no longer drinks to excess. That will become obvious pretty quickly when we're in the same house again. It's a whole attitude change when he needs a drink and sees me as an obstacle.

If he slips on these, the AOs and the excessive drinking, then it is crystal clear that our current plan is not addressing them sufficiently, and we will need to rework our plan. No more "why can't you just decide to be happy? This is me and I'm not changing." Yes, it will be very different, in that I'm not going to expose myself and my kids to it anymore. He's right, I do have a confidence issue with him, and I am prepared to address it head on. Yesterday was another big wake up call to me, that he has little respect for me. We teach people how to treat us by how we treat ourselves.

jayne, somehow I didn't catch that that your kids are with you, too. Cool! They would LOVE Blizzard Beach or Typhoon Lagoon! We went a few months ago to Blizzard Beach. And it's so hot right now, right? But I heard Typhoon Lagoon has a more fun wave pool, with "bobbing" waves. But I hear you about the overscheduling, too, and Downtown Disney is nice because they can play Legos at Legoland and you can just sit and relax with a cool refreshment! I wish I had more vaction days; that would've been so cool to take Wednesday off and meet you up there!


The withdrawal is more a feeling that I am aware of than a feeling that I am acting on. That modified 180 is what I turn to when I am despairing looking for acceptance from H; when I become overly focused on his actions. An alternative way to get through State of Conflict.

I don't feel that way today, fixated on a result from him. The withdrawal is more like there's not anything I feel like counting on him for right now, that I am more inward focused, checking my own actions to evaluate whether they are in line with my values. I think I am doing okay at the 90 degrees today, willing to call and make small talk. Not confrontational or trying to get him to say nice things to me.

I do feel kind of like in Plan A, trying to make the best lasting impression that I can, because H has been fighting an overwhelming urge to leave for some time. I think I'm doing about as well as someone can with loving detachment and not taking that personally. I understand that struggle is not about me or a current failure on my part. But if he does leave, I want him to be able to remember that we CAN do this, that it CAN be so good. I believe I have accomplished that.

H is getting in at 11:15, and DD7 and I will be there at the airport to greet him. The house looks nice, I've had neighbors and family over, so I know it's company-ready. My friend even told me today how great it looks. My Dad came over today to help me fix some things that have been broken for some time, like folding doors off their tracks, so the place looks better even than when he left. Even without the cleaning lady here for a month and a half. I don't think that it takes a "dog and pony show" to be happy about coming home here. But if he's not happy, that's not my choice to own.