I interpreted this as jlr was saying that her Hubby now respects her again-- that she EARNED it back. And that yes, her hubby probably lost love for her after the A... its only natural. The A is the ULTIMATE LB, now isn't it? But even with the love bank smoking, beeping, and smoldering in the negative balances... it can be resurrected. And part of that is being a respectable person again, and being someone your H can love again.

E.

Introvert,

You made me have a "light bulb moment".



Many, if not most, WS/FWSs say they still loved their spouse, even when they were cheating.

Cheating = zero repsect for your spouse. I don't care what you say, I don't care if your situation was "different", if you were cheating, you had zero respect for your spouse.

So, either every one of those WS/FWS are lying when they say they loved their spouse while they were cheating, or love can exist with not just low respect, but ZERO respect.


Thanks, Introvert.

I hear this to be their values and belief system, who they are.

It sounds like you disagree with what her value and belief system is. Maybe different enough that you no longer like or love who she is or who you thought she was/is.



I would argue that freely giving trust is begging to be taken advantage of.

Respect gives a person the chance to earn trust. There is value and it is worth the effort.

I think that respect and trust are more closely linked than respect and love.

Try respecting someone you don't trust, or trusting someone you don't respect.

I think that being able to trust someone is actually a part of respecting them.

That's on a personal level, of course. I respect Michael Jordan, but I wouldn't ask him to house-sit for me.

This might come across the wrong way... but as a FWW... I would argue that most WWs during their A "love" their spouse... but don't romantically love their spouse. And that that romantic love is lost BEFORE the A starts-- it is setting the stage for an A. Of course, you have to have a spouse with the lack of standards to go ahead and participate in the play in order for it to happen... but I would argue that cheating spouses do not romantically love their partners, and probably hadn't for awhile before the A. The love they have for their spouse while they are cheating is more like the love you have for your mom, or a dear friend. Again, a different kind of love-- one I don't think is as intimately tied to respect.

I had long since lost most of the romantic love for my H before my A-- as a by product of our crappy communciation styles, lots of time apart (he travelled for work), and unmet ENs on both sides.

Not that that is AT ALL a justification for having an A. What you should do is work to get that romantic love back WITH YOUR H (not someone else!).

I still say that you can't have ROMANTIC love without respect. The two go hand-in-hand. You can love someone, but you can't ROMANTICALLY love them

And I bet that deep inside, most WWs don't romantically love their H's anymore... and that is partially what drives the A in the first place. And those that say otherwise are either really screwed up in the head to be cheating and romantically love their H at the same time... or are lying, IMO.

E.

I agree completely. I think that love and respect are not as intertwined as some people think. My W is a perfect example of this. She was pretty much a carbon copy of the WORST way to have an affair...EA, repeated sexual affair, lying, false NC (changed her phone # just to call OM again), manipulation, abusive toward me (mentally, and physically...when she realized I had finally had enough and was giving her the boot)...and, through all that complete lack of ANY respect for me....she still said that she loved me.

So, either she is/was kidding herself by thinking/saying that she loved me, or she had 0 respect for me and still loved me. Confusing subject, this one.

Yes, I agree that respect and trust are very closely linked. This is also linked closely with self respect and the value we give to ourselves.

I believe that respect is critical if one is to have a good marriage.

I view respect to define value or worth.

I value my W and what she can offer me and our family. After the A I felt very much like you but with a level less of resentment from what I can tell.

I felt she needed to earn my respect back. At one point in our recovery, I became the bottleneck.

I was very resentful over what happened and how she hurt me.

The lies. The lack of trust. The lack of honesty and openness. That she wasn't who I thought she was. I didn't respect her. It all broke down.

Respect is like a boomerang. If you give it you will get it in return. It builds more honesty and openness. This in turn builds more intimacy.

Dr. Harley is a very smart man. It is just not so intuitive to us.

Try it. See what you get in return. Don't trust without honesty and openness. But, you will likely get honesty and openness if you show respect.

I don't think there is, or can be, any other type of love between spouses. It's either romantic or none.

I already tried using the example of loving a child you don't respect, and was told that "that's a different kind of love". After thinking about it, I agree.

I don't love my W the way I love my kids...or the way I love seafood, for that matter. If I didn't love her romantically, I wouldn't love her at all.

I still say this:

Either WS/FWS who say they loved their spouse during their A are lying, or romantic love can exist with low, or even zero, respect.

The second part of this makes some sense to me.

Can a WS love through the fog?

Does 'fog' eliminate respect?

We'll have to agree to disagree Krazy. I think some of that might be from coming from two different sides of the tracks-- me being a FWW, and you being the BH.

I hold steadfast that ROMANTIC love and respect go hand-in-hand. You can love someone and not respect them-- sure, like your example of the child-- or in my case, my own brother, who I love dearly, but do not respect his life choices in the slightest, and therefore do not respect him.

I think you can feel something other than romantic love for a spouse-- I believe that you can love them as a friend (really, underlying all romantic love, is a friendship)-- or as a family member. It may not be the same, but I dated an ex-boyfriend for 4 years prior to meeting my H. I still love him. I don't talk to him, have no idea what happened to him in life (and he was not my OM)-- but I'll always love him-- the same way I love my old college friends, etc-- although I also have a standard now that would not allow me to "catch up" with an ex boyfriend-- EPs and all, ya know-- but catching up with old college friends would be good-- But I don't love him the way I love my H, of course-- I no longer romantically love my ex. I realize a M is totally different than dating, but its the same idea.

ENs aren't met, you fall out of romantic love with the other person. You lose respect for them... (how many WWs around here nit-pick on their H's and their H's faults and blow them out of proportion??)... and blam-o... the A happens.

You love them, but you don't love them like your SPOUSE. You love them like you love your brother. That's what allows the disconnect between love and respect. And I almost think you HAVE to lose that romantic love in order to lose that much respect for your spouse to let yourself do something that hideous. People that are thrilled with their Ms don't have A's-- unless they are sick twisted people that have a sex addiction or some sort of other serious problem.

I do understand your point, Krazy-- I can see how that is a valid POV. Its just not one I agree with coming from the other side of the tracks, I guess. I really think it is a "what side of the tracks" you are on issue.

E.

This is all very interesting.....

Hey Mark....

YOU OUT THERE???....Could you give the fish a break and give us your food for thought on this?????


not2fun

I can't speak for my W...but if the fog is to blame, than her fog certainly caused me to lose all respect for her. Whether it was her or the fog to blame, the result was the same.


Are there any BS's out there that lost respect for their WS, that somehow regained it? If so, how did your WS earn it back?

I think I stated in a post to Krazy71, and if I didn't I meant to, that I never said my H did not lose respect for me.

What I meant, the respect he HAS for me was earned back. He trusts me. He has trigger moments, few and far between when we are solid, and when the triggers happed the new respect he has for me helps him thru.


I agree. I didn't respect him. I didn't respect our vows. I didn't respect myself. I didn't think, my complete disregard to everything was in question. I thought the question was about getting that respect back.


And by pre d-day you really mean pre A...


No, my sweet, sweet hubby does not come to the discussion boards. He finds the Harley's useful/insightful and aligns rather well with our MC but coming to a board would be too much for him. (He knows that I come here and I share some situations with him.) He says that it would be a constant reminder especially when BH are sometimes "counseled" at first to leave their WW.

I found MB 2+ years after d-day. We have our ups and our downs...more ups than downs. I post to help me become an even better wife to my DH. I post to help, if only in support, to help others recover their marriages.


I think you are expecting too much too soon. Your d-day was not that long ago.

And I suppose the best way to answer you question on earning back respect...look inside yourself...what are you doing to earn back your W respect in terms of your A...what is it that you need from her to feel respect again.

I think the how the earning occurs is different in the sense that your needs in terms of respect/love. I also think that others here can speak more clearly than I am on this topic...it seems that my 'vague' post has left room for interpretation.

From what I've read in this thread posted by TJD - that is in line with my thoughts. He just spoke it much better than I.

Am I safe in assuming that my previous answer-- from awhile ago-- is not what you were looking for-- ie, that wouldn't work in earning your respect back?

Because if that doesn't work, I'm not sure what would? I'm not saying that to be an @ss... but if changing your actions, consistently, doesn't earn respect back (and actions are what respect is made of-- not words or intentions)-- what will?

I think some people can't respect someone again after certain transgressions-- no matter what.

And I think the only way to earn respect back after an egregious action is to CHANGE your ACTIONS, take responsibility, and to take EPs to make sure that hurtful action can't happen again. And it takes TIME of doing it over and over again to PROVE you are different. Even if it was a momentary slip up, it can takes years to make up for. A respectable FWS realizes this and isn't daunted by it.

Noble actions = respect.

E.

Definitions of respect:

I found this write up close to what I believe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect

I'm putting in quotes to separate from my opinions (combination of definitions searching on the 'net):




I wanted to share these directly because as the link above says, respect is a difficult to define. I love this thread.

From the root, I think what Krazy is doing IS looking at again...the root definition, the transitive verb...he looks again at the object, FWW, anew. He does feel esteem (which values, and in part, we value through trust) now as he did pre-A.

I want to challenge you, Krazy, to respect again...look at your object again in a new way. Pre-A, you assumed her to be incapable of horrific acts of destruction. Did you truly respect her power pre-A? When we believe through our esteem of others that they are incapable, would never...are we truly looking at the ability of the human or using our image of them to suit our purposes?

For instance...we respect fire. We can use, contain, profit from, survive by fire...and know it is able to consume everything. Through knowledge, healthy fear--ergo, looking at it...not making it flat, defined, always safe (looking away from it). We stay aware, stay respectful (looking) and take precautions...because we know.

Would you consider not knowing your FWW pre-A for the assumption of what she would never do...choose not to murder, steal, kidnap, deal drugs...not murder your marriage, kidnap your esteem, deal herself drugs (for context, not drama) so you felt SAFE in your esteem of her, the value YOU placed on her? And now, you know all of her, a wholeness you no longer like, cannot trust fully as you once did (based on your image of her and her prior choices), though she chose not to have an A, to violate your marriage, previous to when she did, every day?

And now you see she is able, for she did choose, and is now choosing not to...you're in reality more...where you no longer the image of who she was to you; she's three-dimensional, separate, living by choice (as she was before, no real safeguards), as are you to her? Would you consider now on looking at again, respecting in a way, like fire?

(though it shares a lot of the conditions, I don't think this analogy works 'cuz I don't fire has a choice, btw, and humans do...I got stuck on it, sorry)

Transformation is the same substance changing into another form...I believe respect can be like that...as you saw the trust factor (respect choose not to violate, to not interfere with), the esteem (valuing), admiration, your opinion and judgment of her (from esteem, not respect); if respect is looking, then esteem is from your perception of what you see?

New respect, new marriage, eyes wide open; may take new definitions, precautions (blind trust is not respectful, doesn't look), awareness, and what you most mourn is the image you had previously, not the person, who was always able and chose not to...until she did.

How to rebuild respect? I believe each new choice builds our self-respect again--each act of transparency, honesty, full disclosure, time, act of care, extraordinary precaution to protect...and doing each of these even if we don't "feel" like it teaches us to not react to our resulting "feelings"; to act from our commitment to respect, awareness and love of our partners, our marriage and our selves.

One tiny act at a time, over a lifetime...gets to the core reasons we chose infidelity...eliminating the DJs paving the way to fantasy, to reality distortion, with honesty as the antidote.

You may never choose to look at your FWW again, anew...hence, not respect her, Krazy. I believe it's your choice, not a condition...just as her A was hers.

I wish for you what I have...in our marriage, for each other, continuous, not laid flat or defined, no boxes, single acts of respect, love, acceptance daily, building our self-esteem and esteem of our partnership, respecting we are, were and will remain equals.

LA

When we solved our problems I felt happy and my resentment went away.

When we were stuck in the mud and the problems built up I was unhappy and my resentment grew.

I know we were able to solve problems when I respected my wife and her point of view and when she was honest and open with me.

When I showed a lack of respect and/or she wasn't honest and open our problems remained and new ones were created.

Not sure how one can POJA with a lack of respect for the other person and there point of view.

Being stuck and not recovering after an A builds more resentment.

Recovering and having a better life and marriage builds enormous respect. And, in the end, that is why I stayed, why I chose to recover. Not to be better than my W.

I got ya. But to me there is a BIG difference between respecting my W's point of view, and respecting my wife as a whole. I've always respected her POV on day to day issues, but her adultery isn't just a day to day issue...it's an issue that will last for the rest of our lives.

As time goes by (over 2 years now), I'm more and more aware of an entire, rickety, house-of-cards type structure that BSs and WSs in R have created.

It is a system of beliefs, catch-phrases, and explanations that all seem geared towards one purpose:

To allow BSs and WSs who want to recover their marriage to live with what the WS has done.

For instance, there is no "fog". There is a period of time when the WS misses the AP, because for whatever reason, they aren't seeing them anymore, and they cared about them nearly as much as the BS.

Affair relationships don't fail because they're "fake", they fail because the people involved in them are fecal matter.

Etc., etc.

I don't know where that came from, it just sorta appeared.

I would think this would be a real stumbling block to recovery.

May I ask why you are trying?

I do understand Krazy's pain, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't have these thoughts, or even say them out loud to WW a few times during arguments...but, I too am wondering why even try if you can't type online without saying these things? If I couldn't discuss stuff here without letting negative emotional thoughts get in the way, there is no chance I'd be able to do it at home with W. Not me anyway.