He's got problems. Could you two learn to POJA things? Then you could both get what you want. It will take some time breaking old habits and getting into new habits of POJA'ING THINGS. But you can do it! At least you two can try.

If I was in your place I may be tempted to tape your interactions and then study them to see where they could be improved. (Or, I might just give up and get divorced!)

I bet you could lead the charge to improve things though...

You're right. I'm just feeling sorry for myself. I have a lot of habits he puts up with without saying a word, although I guess his general attitude incorporate his opinions about all that. I take a lot of 'selfish' time, like sitting down right now, when he's outside by himself working on D17's car in 100 degrees, and I'm inside picking up the house (my mom paid for a housekeeper for me for my birthday, and she's coming tomorrow, so I have to put stuff away so she can clean). I need to work harder to meet his needs.

I did have a eureka moment earlier. I was moving things around in the kitchen and getting rid of stuff, and I decided to just move all the glasses to the other set of cabinets, and let him have that whole cabinet that he keeps stuffing stuff in. Four shelves he can store things in to his heart's content, and it won't create any more resentment for me.

I stood up for myself a little today, so we're getting there.

i dropped by for my every once in awhile catperson fix and lo and behold the thread had dropped to page three

in exchange for bringing your thread out of lonesome page three, now you have to update us

heh

Awww, you caught me! Haven't really been accomplishing anything, so haven't been posting.

I fluctuate between being glad my H puts up with all my selfish behavior and being so tired of his negativity I count the days til D17 leaves so I can, too. And then I feel guilty for being too chicken to tell him the truth, so he can have a chance to fix himself.

I really think I'm in a different situation than most people here. I'm married to a man who wants nothing more out of life than to be with me, 24/7. It's me who wants something else.

I could probably solve it for both of us, if I were just willing to be honest with him, show him how close I am to leaving. I think that, since I've been thinking about it so much since I came here, that it's at the top of my radar, tip of my tongue so to speak, such that, if we got into an all-out fight, I just might feel free enough to just blurt it out. I don't believe I have ever told him, ever, that I wanted out. And I don't believe he can even conceptualize it, because he's all about himself. Well, he's all about us, but in a way that precludes it being about anything but himself, if that makes sense.

So, I content myself with trying to look for his good points to try to like him again, trying to meet his needs like shopping for foods he likes or putting out his clothes for him or watching tv with him, while consciously looking for ways to non-judgmentally point out that his negativity is killing me.

Haven't been to IC since April or May; upped my AD dosage; exercising a lot more, joined Curves so I'll do more; everything else is just coasting.

Two bright notes. One, H finally started getting involved with the house/D17's car. (be careful what you wish for) He helped me get new drapes for the kitchen (I washed mine and they shrank ). From there on, he started taking his old Nova apart to get it ready for D17 to drive. So we've been working on the car every weekend this summer. Looong way to go. Arguing several times a day on it. But at least he's not falling asleep on the couch every day.

Two, I had a timeshare banked, and promised D17 a vacation, so I actually went out and booked a week in Orlando for next month. We're driving to save money, her friend is going with us, the timeshare is its own little resort (lazy river, etc.) so we may not have to spend much money. H really wasn't happy with it cos I had also found a week in Puerto Vallarta, but there was nothing there for D17 to do, and I still can't find her passport (and no, procrastinator me still hasn't gotten it renewed). But I basically stood up to him, made him talk to me about it to get a commitment from him, and booked it despite him not being thrilled. So that in itself is a major coup for me. I should say, however, that just last night he asked me how long the vacation was; told him 7 days; he said 'so we're going to be gone a full week?' and I said, 'well, yeah, but if you want to come back earlier to get back to work, you can fly home.' He said no. So I'm full of these little moments of standing my ground. Slowly gaining my self-worth.

That's about it. Thanks for asking, and making me face the fact that I'm not really doing much, lol. How are you doing?

Well, cat, I'm plenty proud of you

I wish we could've timed the Orlando trips to all coincide, that would've been cool! But I'm really glad that you're getting a chance to go, it sounds like a relaxing vacation!

Well, sounds like we need a better travel agent, to coordinate things next time!

So basically, you are still doing many of the things that he does. You complain about his things, but when you do it, you call it gaining self worth.

Again, as I've said before, your complaints are frequently valid.

However, the trip you booked with your H, that certainly was not chosen based on POJA. It was about what you wanted. It seems pretty obvious that he was not enthusiastic about it.

Then of course, you admit that you are not being honest with him. That you have a plan to leave, when your daughter leaves, and you've not shared this information with him.

Isn't that all about you? It is.

So while you complain about how he's all about the family, but that's only on his terms, you are really just doing the same thing. You are all about your plan to leave him, and can't even muster the courage to be open and honest about it.

You are right, you are selfish. He's selfish too, no argument from me about that.

But how can you complain about his selfishness, but only give a passing mention that you are selfish too?

When you are still selfish after you leave him, who will you blame?

Yeah, I know, EE. That's why I haven't been posting. I'm just not in a place to fix anything. Feeling sorry for myself, feeling sorry for H for being married to me, starting to slowly work my way out of this depression with the help of the ADs and push myself to be better to him. He's put up with a lot from me. I know what I need to do for him, to make things better, but it's hard to do that when you don't like someone. So I'm trying to make myself rearrange my mind so that I start seeing the good in him before the bad. He's a great person, loyal, smart, giving, moral; he just has a bad coping system, and I've let that overshadow all that's good about him. I'm taking steps to be a better wife and give him what he deserves, and it's working a little.

Just this morning I was thinking about how he calls me every day when he gets off work, and then spends the entire trip home (45 minutes) talking to me about all the problems at work. I really don't want to listen to all of it, all the complaining every single day (honestly, it IS all complaining; trust me). But I was thinking this morning that it means something to him for me to listen, and he said it helps pass the time. So I decided just a little while ago that I need to start calling him to fill his EN.

"I can't talk, he has no problem"

neither does enlightened_ex!

that was a 2x4 you can sink your teeth into

so your husband is not meeting your emotional needs, you are unable to communicate that to him and now you are so frustrated that progress is slowing

i hear ya... i was the one who held in feelings in my marriage too. holding your feelings in is never productive to anything. the only thing that results is a grudge or overthinking things and neither of those are good for a healthy marriage

let it out cat. if that means having a knock down, rock em sock em robots arguement than sobeit

EE, I also was concerned yesterday about the trip not being POJA'd. I think that it may take quite a bit of "stirring the pot" to make her side of the the relationship reflect the reality, that it is a partnership of equals. Cat acknowledges that she is working on this.

At the same time, I didn't comment on it, because cat has shared that there are times she's ready to slay the dragon, and times that simply the fact that the dragon is still there today weighs her down. So I figured, I'll still be here with her when she has the energy to slay the dragon.

I ran into a lot of problems trying to implement POJA before I had really gotten the "separate but equal" part down where I wanted to, on my side.

For me, it was like when I tried to get my then 5 year old older daughter to fall asleep in her own room, before I had established to myself that I have the confidence to make good decisions. We would struggle for half an hour, then I would relent and let her come back to my room. I taught her and myself that I don't have confidence in my ability to make good decisions, and that if she wants to be taken care of, it will take some crying on her part, because she can't rely on me.

So I made an appointment with the school psychologist. Explained the situation. She suggested that I explain a new set up to DD. That if she sleeps without crying in her room all week, that she can sleep with us Fridays. It took away my confidence block, because here was the expert saying that my DD would be okay. I don't think the magic was in her suggestion, but my confidence that it would be okay. She never even tested the new setup with more crying, but I could have handled that. And the problem was resolved.

Cat, when I read the following post this morning, it made me think of that Right Man syndrome you had linked to way back when. It is interesting how we all think so differently.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2095756&#Post2095756

I can always count on EE to keep me honest, lol.

My car's been in the shop for 2 weeks, and they haven't done anything yet (we have a loaner) because when the service writer told us what needed done (in the thousands) my H went ballistic and sent out some nasty nasty emails to the service writer and his boss about how they're discriminating on us, they're a bunch of cheats, he should sue, etc. I was so embarrassed I told him he needed to deal with them from now on. (But he can't take my car in because he still doesn't have a valid driver's license from when his expired in December so they won't give him a loaner.) Anyway, he's been avoiding calling them, and it's been 2 weeks! I brought it up again Sunday night, gently told him that they'll probably start charging me rental fees on their loaner if we don't at least get them started making the repairs. So he sent an email yesterday and said now it's their job to call him. That way, if they don't, it's their fault. That's how he sets things up. NOT a DJ, this is just what he does. He places himself as the victim out of self-protection; discrimination is his favorite word, uses it any time he wants a better deal, or if he feels he's being cheated.

You can see the looks on people's face when he says stuff like that, like 'are you kidding me?', but he doesn't see it. I tried in the past to explain to him that it just makes people not want to work with him (he gets in fights with or gets kicked out of every organization he gets involved in), but then he blows up about me not defending him, so I quit doing that years ago.

I know this is me making assumptions about him, but if I ever bring this subject up, question his actions, ask him to consider if there was another way to do something, he blows up. So I just don't talk any more.

I'm not allowed access to that link, ears.

I think I gave a wrong impression about the vacation thing. He told me to pick out something, he hates doing that stuff (you have to do it online). I printed out the possible choices we had and showed him. Told him we could drive to Orlando, save money. Asked him if we had the money for air fare to Puerto Vallarta, he wouldn't answer me. So I looked up plane fares, printed out the choices, gave them to him, asked him which one he wanted. He didn't answer me. So I went back and looked up activities, printed it out, showed him what we could do at Orlando and what we could do at PV (hang out at the beach, which he hates). No answer. So finally, one night when he came to bed, I just pulled out the computer and started looking up air fares to see what it would cost, and we just decided to go to Orlando, so I booked it.

And the second thing, about the time involved, is the same thing he does every time we go on vacation. Once he thinks about it, he decides he can't be away from work that long. And we usually cut the vacation short for him. But this time I decided I wasn't going to sacrifice our vacation and said he could fly back if he wanted. He said no. So we're all good.

i live like 30 minutes from orlando... been hot as hell here this week so bring a healthy supply of sunblock lol

i neglected to take that advise last week on a long motorcycle ride to the beach and back and now i have the ouchies

still think you need to let go some of that pent up frustration at some point though

EE, if Cat had a typical husband, I would agree with you. I am personally convinced he had a personality disorder. The symptoms of this disorder (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder) are that they are demand resistant (CANNOT be told what to do) and that they are Truth Owners (only their version of the truth is correct). They also tend to want every thing to be done perfectly...well for other people to do things perfectly. If they don't think they can do it perfectly, well, why bother.
The problem is, they are never satisfied.

So, in this case, I believe that Cat is doing the exact right things. She is standing up for herself, because to an OCPD person you can never be perfect. You have always done something wrong. Something could have been done better.
If she said for him to book a vacation, it would never get done because: 1) She asked him to do it
2) He would be afraid he wouldnt' pick the RIGHT, PERFECT vacation.

So since she has the time share, she feels she should use it and also book a vacation before the summer is over. Normally this would be too much TAKER and not enought GIVER...but she has had her TAKER shut up in a closet for too long now.

I also personally think that Cat thinks she is "selfish" because she is actually doing some things for her self, and expecting her DH to contribute to the household maintenance where as before she was doing everything. She feels "selfish"because she let her TAKER take a tiny step out.

Anyway, I think her DH is incapable of POJA, and it is up to Cat to balance her needs vs. his. He was always getting his way before, and now she is getting her way sometimes too. And "her way" is what most people would think is very reasonable expectations for a DH.

She IS gaining self worth because she is not letting him stomp all over her wants and needs.

On that OCPD board I have mentioned before there is a man whose wife does this...monopolizes his time for hours complaining and how he could have done things better...even things she really doesn't know about. Like she will tell him how to work on his social skills at work when he is a well liked team member and she does not go out or have any friends except those involved in a charity.

So are you meeting a need or enabling a pathology?

I would ask yourself how this affects you? Can you half listen while making dinner? Or are you expected to totally pay attention to the point you can't do anything else? Can you refocus the conversation?

Cat, thanks for clarifying. what does "he didn't answer me" mean? Was it like a stonewalling? Would it be honest to say, "I hear that you would like me to make this decision alone. Did I get that right?" Or validate that he's overwhelmed, and that's okay, because you are willing to pick up the slack on this. And let him know he can ask for help when he needs it. I'm not understanding what the silence means, but there must be a reason for it that makes sense to him.

I do that, too, ask H if we can afford something, but I am really working on that. For me at least, that is so NOT "separate and equal"!

The trip that we took in March to Disney wasn't POJAd, either. H wanted me to save all my vacation time for a summer trip to SoCal. I felt like I'd done my time, paid my dues, last summer already. I wasn't enthusiastic about that, because I honestly needed a vacation at that point. I'm working on that, finding the win-win there.

Wow. wbh, thank you for that. I think that's the first description of me that is 100% me. (and H)

It's funny you say that, because that is EXACTLY what has happened to us at least 10 out of the last 15 years. He wants to control the vacation planning, tells me he will do it when I bring it up, doesn't get around to it, then it's either too late to book anything except our normal timeshare or else it's even too late for that one, and we lose the week. So then he ends up having to pay for a vacation on a credit card.

Here's a good example of how this works in our M. H needed to replace blades on lawnmower; bought them, but didn't put them on. H needed to replace head on weedeater, put it on Sunday morning (we had a baseball game to go to at 1) around 9. I stand around, waiting to help him, which is what he wants. If I don't, he comes in the house, angry, and typically says "Do you think I could possibly get SOMEONE (his emphasis) to help me out here while I do all the work?" So I usually go outside when he does, to avoid being yelled at more. Anyway, I'm standing there while he fixes the weedeater, takes 30 minutes, have to read the instructions to him, he's cussing at all the Mexicans and N's in the world screwing everything up, how nothing works any more and it's all their fault. I do a little weeding in between standing next to him so I can get him tools or gas or whatever.

He finally gets it working, I'm pulling weeds (cos the lawnmower's not fixed yet and if I suggest fixing it I'll get yelled at), weedeater falls apart again a little later, he works on it some more. By then it's 10. So right before he starts it up again, since we're running out of time, I go ahead and say "If you will put the blades on the lawnmower, I'll - " at which point he yells at me "I'm NOT gonna fix the GD lawnmower!" and goes to edge. So I pull more weeds.

The history here is that when I mow, I do it wrong. Especially if it's time to raise the mower or any other change, cos he'll tell me he doesn't want me to screw it up. He wants to control the situation because he doesn't believe I can do as good a job as him. So Sunday, he controlled the situation by not fixing the mower until he was done edging so HE could do the mowing. His way of keeping me from messing up (not a DJ, yes he has told me this to my face several times). Sometimes if I mow, he goes back behind me and RE-mows cos I've done it wrong.

So he tells me to have D17 wash the cars cos he got mud on them. I do that, I continue weeding. He comes out front and starts yelling at me for not helping her wash the car, cos we're running out of time (he's still mowing for another 40 minutes). So I go help her wash his car. I told her not to do the rental car, since it's not my car, don't really care if the mud comes off of it; she goes inside. Then he comes out and yells because I didn't wash the rental and that was the one that got stuff on it. So I sigh and pull the hose back out and start washing the other car.

I tell D17 to make sandwiches for us cos we're late for the game now, since we had to wait for him to mow instead of letting me do it. H comes in, tells her to stop, that we're going to this place where you can eat before the game and not have to pay parking. I'm thinking, well, we're already late for the game, but I'm not about to say anything by now, after 3 hours of getting bitched out. So on the way to the game, D17 tells H that my brother had called; he asks why, I said he called to invite us out to eat lunch before the game. He gets mad and says 'why didn't you tell me?' I think 'because if I did you would gripe about having to do things with my family all the time, how you never get time to yourself, how you always have to do what I say and no one cares about you' (this is the usual speech whenever I bring up my family). What I said was 'because you were in the middle of trying to fix the weedeater, and they were leaving in 30 minutes and we couldn't have gone.' Him: "yeah, when they're ready to go, they don't wait for anyone.' Me: no comment. By now, I've told D17 to sit in the front seat so I don't have to sit next to him or talk to him.

So we get to the restaurant and find out they're closed on Sunday, so we have to pay for parking anyway, and have to pay $8 for a hotdog at the stadium. *sigh*

This is a typical weekend for us.

wbh, I really don't know. I do put him on speaker phone sometimes and just go around folding towels and cleaning and such, but I feel guilty doing that. He doesn't want to talk about anything else. He'll do it for a minute or two, and then bring it back around to his work and how everyone there is screwing him over.

I guess I'll do some more reading on this and find out the best way to deal with him; obviously what I'm doing isn't working.

ears, he just literally doesn't acknowledge that I've spoken to him. He does it to D17, too, but she gets in his face about it, bless her heart. I told her Sunday, in the midst of all the getting chewed out, that I was sorry I hadn't done something about all this (how he interacts with us) years ago so she didn't have to deal with it. She just shrugged her shoulders, said it doesn't bother her. I know it does, though. He's so critical of her. I try to make up for it. Like she was scared that he'd be mad at her for not being able to find a friend to go to the game with us (he does that a lot). I told her not to worry about it, and when he indeed did bring it up at the game, I told him to leave her alone about it, that she had called 9 people, and we didn't pay for the tickets anyway (gift from brother).

So it seems that many are willing to step up and say that the other spouses bad behaviors are justification for LB behavior.

Please show me where Dr H says this is how we are to behave?

He doesn't.

I agree with the good Dr that plan A can be taken advantage of by some folks.

However, nothing I've read cautions against eliminating LB's, regardless how the other spouse is behaving.

So while I agree many of the assessments of her husband are accurate, that is still no reason to promote LB behavior, such as independent behavior or being dishonest (such as not sharing plans) etc.

So unless someone can find where Dr Harley recommends LB's, how can anyone justify LB behavior?