No, but I'll try to read it soon. I hadn't really thought about Mys' situation being like mine. Maybe because my H doesn't malevolently cause me pain. He just doesn't realize it. Or doesn't want to. I think MrMys is just plain evil. But sure, accepting things certainly hurts me getting any where. I'm doing a lot better than a year ago. And I'm trying much harder to pay attention to him and give him ENs; I think doing that will make him less miserable and more loving to me, too.

I am actively analyzing my situations more, like LA says. So, it's not nearly as knee-jerk as it used to be for me.

I need to get an appointment, haven't been to IC in months. Seriously, though, it's like calling someone up just so they can pull the scab off your wound! Why put yourself through that, you know? But I know I need to. One big change for me is that I'm able to talk to my mom about my H, for the first time, as an adult, and not a child who failed her by marrying the wrong guy. My family has always looked down their nose at me for choosing and then staying with him. So there's always a sense of guilt around us. I'm working on that.

Would you entertain that this might be why you have put your DD17 first? Would you consider also that the lesson you didn't learn was to see everyone as equal?

Do you think comparing abusive finace and H is equitable? What if you couldn't compare folks, only you as you are now, with who you once were (and you sound really smart, btw, choosing to walk, quite literally, away). You exercised your power, assessed with clarity and said that wasn't what you wanted.

One the reasons separation due to abuse works so well is because then you see clearly what you also get out of your half of the relationship...what's real and what isn't...clarity sans reactivity.


No one controls their situation...just themselves. Does hearing that hit your fear center? (I haven't seen the Saw movies.) If your H knew of your plans, your thoughts of the future now...I would think the odds were that he would acclimate better to the idea, over time, than waiting one year and zapping him by moving out, telling him as you're doing it and why.

When your H AO's and DJs, if he were to stop and tell you, like a play-by-play, what he was choosing to do and why, what his goal was for a year from now...would you experience him differently?

Sounds to me like your imagination is your enemy, not H. You say he has not been physically abusive and think he would injure his own DD? I'm not saying you're wrong. I just don't understand the basis. I can better the see the finances part, except that you can secure them as we've discussed before to the best of your ability. No, it's not perfect...you can also leave in a year without a cent and survive and then thrive, too. I know you know that.

When you think about leaving, are you leaving him forever...divorcing...or separating temporarily based on abuse?

LA

I don't think he would really do anything to her, that's irrational. That's why I said it's all tied into this irrational fear I have of having someone decide my fate for me. Before, a year ago, I wouldn't have believed it possible that I could go out and change my life; not really. I've learned since then, since coming here, how to be healthier and make good decisions instead of dysfunctional ones.

As for H, I'm looking for the opportunities to bring out this unhappiness so we can discuss it. I don't have the strength yet to just put it out there, but I'm working on it.

At this point, I can't see him making the uphill trek to change his personality from hating/fearing everything and seeing the worst in everyone and every situation. I know it's all based on his self-fear and lack of self-worth; but that doesn't make it any easier for him to become a whole new person. And it's not HIM I want to get away from; it's the constant negativity. That's like asking me to start being aggressive; just not me.

With luck, this will be the start of a new bend in our R, where we start talking honestly.

Hi cat,

I'm glad you're working with LA, she's awesome!

I had a thought, but if it isn't where LA is taking you, then please ignore - but my thought was, when I hear this:


It sounded to me as if you are still assuming responsibility for "fixing" him. If that's on purpose, if that's the plan, to help him so that your M and your life improves, then ok. But if not, then maybe you could just work on what you will do to promote improvements (but not take responsibility for causing them - just to promote, encourage, facilitate growth, an act of love...) and what you will do until he changes and/or if he doesn't change.

Cat,

You and H are already whole people. Period. God didn't make no junk ever, 'k?

Over 30 years ago you feared and acted anyway...when you walked away. You now feel fear from a scenario you thought up in your head which you say you do not believe is rational...so you are in essence, scaring yourself into staying quiet.

Let me know if I have that correct...because it ties into this:


Two sides of the same coin--you live in self-fear and lack of self-worth, so does H...the way we pair up isn't as random as you may think, Cat. He reflects you reflecting him and that infinity thing comes into play.

Stop judging to the death of your marriage another human being, who is equally able, whole and marvelously made of the SAME stuff as you are...you're better than that. Put down that false tool (they were wrong to put your brother ahead of you when the results were that he hardly passed; ergo, it would have been right to put you, the honor student, ahead of him = both are wrong.)

You know what WS's say in not telling their BS? They come up with a bunch of assumptions, irrational fears to JUSTIFY the reason, not explain, that they are choosing to lie by omission to their spouse every day.

Don't be that WS. Be braver than you are today...act bravely...and share "I've been thinking a lot about leaving our marriage and looking at my own patterns, where I focus...I negatively focus on your negativity; and it occured to me that I assume you have no problem with our marriage or with me, is that correct?"

Or "I'm thinking about separating from you after DD leaves for college. I want to do everything I can to have a really thriving, respectful and joyous marriage with you in the future."

Personally, I wouldn't bring this out as your "unhappiness." You choose your own goals...if one is to live healthy mentally, physically, spiritually and emotionally...then state that goal. That's the marriage you want...

Do you look to your H to fulfill you, make you happy, make you feel safe, and to tell you who you are? Did you do that with FOO, too, expect the same of your parents and siblings?

Assertive, not aggressive. Honest, not lying by omission, by silence. I took my withholding to BE a lie...I took my misdirection (I could talk a lot and not say much--yeah, big surprise--to distract and try to sneak in my real concerns, what I was too afraid to say outright) as manipulation (not what I wanted). This was after I understood from DH's not talking how many lies he told...and how many I did in my talking.

I wasn't aggressive, I was passive-aggressive...I would say "we" when I really meant "I"...because no matter what anyone said, MY H WAS THE PROBLEM!! So I had no power...no other perspective or perception...and I spent decades trying to solve a human being.

That's the abuse I dished out, Cat.

Each time you stay silent, you know you're lying to your H...you won't remove yourself and you know your presence is very valuable to H...so you normalize, which is a lie. And you come on MB and speak volumes (meaning-filled volumes) in your highest honesty, from your very loving and respectful heart...and here, you are intimate without irrational fear...and you are changing your real life reactions into actions...to me, you're practicing here...so it's really hard for me to see you choosing not saying to H...

"I need your help, DH. I sometimes feel overwhelmed by what I hear is your negativity--you tearing others, even strangers down, feels like you're tearing me down. I'm going to raise my right hand and wiggle my index finger when I'm approaching overwhelmed. I'm asking you to look for me doing this so you'll know I'm going to remove myself and return in a half-hour after I get myself together again. This is temporary. I will be able to speak eventually before removing in the future and until then, when we talk on the phone after work, my signal will be the #1 tone...if you hear that, understand I'll call you back or see you when you arrive home."

As humans, we have a hard time separating our words from ourselves...so saying you don't want to get away from him (and yet you want to leave), you want to get away from the constant negativity...it's essential to delineate one from the other to him. To yourself. So you know. For instance, in a year, if you do separate and you still feel overwhelmed by negativity, you'll see more readily it's not just him.

Give yourself permission to speak, even when you fear. To share. Each time you act from the new permission, you will then experience yourself as safe, fulfilling, happy and who you really are. Your chocies alone do this--not his. Doesn't take strength...takes you not reacting to your fear...doing like you did to exfinace...feeling terrified and acting, anyway.

LA

Very wise and gentle LA!

It all makes sense, LA, all what I want to do, the honesty and such. If this makes sense, it's not that I want him to be a different person; I want him to stop seeing bad everywhere he looks. Is that a different person? Or is it him learning and/or acknowledging that everyone doesn't have malevolent plans towards him, that he doesn't have to tear everyone apart?

I see that as a separate issue from our relationship together, where I don't set boundaries; my issue, not his. I know very well if I would quit participating in it, it would change, so that's my own issue to deal with.

But even if I do that, he will still be hating everyone and everything. THAT is what I need to be away from, that is the reason I consider leaving - just to not be under a cloud of negativity every day. And I just don't see how someone can turn that off, or change it. Even if they want to.

So even if I were to leave, yeah, he might go to IC to get me back. But how do you change your philosophy? In his mind, just about everyone he's ever met has screwed him over, and all the ones he hasn't met yet, will, too. Can he stop thinking that way? Because that is what it would take for me to want to spend another 30 years with him.

Cat, they say, it's only paranoid until you realize they erally *are* out to get you. What your H wnt through with your MiL, man, that would make anyone horribly nasty and untrusting. Same with being an ACoA. Have you ever read up on ACoAs? But I agree with what your IC is telling you, that you changing the attitude in the home will aid his recovery from this. You've seen this already to a small extent, right?

Thought-provoking Cat...remember that, 'k? This isn't "I got all the answers if you'll just listen to me and do what I say"...which is how I heard people pre-MB...my perception.

If you truly want, you will do.

Again, my DH was this way...not to the same extent maybe or in the same way...he said to me five years ago (I think), "I wish I didn't hate everyone. I wish I saw them as you do."

He hated...he feared...he lived in constant anxiety and fear. He distracted, using distractions to cope. He saw others, even his sons, change HIS feelings about them through their words to him.

What he does to others, even verbally, he does to himself. Remember that, please? As a partner, I would understand you wanting him to stop his habitual negative perspective and perception because of the constant damage it does to him inside. For you, you can remove. He can't get away. As he berates others aloud, so does he inside himself.

I don't believe you want him to continue to tear himself apart, either. Think about this when you are brave, honest and remove without rancor...respecting his choice to continue, without you there or not continue. And what he will say about others, you are correct in knowing he will say to you, do to you.

Hence, your fear kicks in and you may feel paralyzed. There really is no difference in his POV of others, for you are "other", you, and to himself. Brain treats all the same because we are all humans, all one.

Back to me ('cuz this is all about me)...I wanted my DH to change from an introvert to an extrovert...I wanted him to have a different perspective, perceive differently, think differently and feel differently. My deepest desire was for him to BELIEVE differently. All his stuff...and yes, it was disrespectful, my own DJs, for at root, I wanted him to do all that stuff like me...so I'd be safe. Not him. So I'd feel less burdened, less consumed, less excluded, too--all about me.

I share on this issue with you, Cat, because I relate. And we do have different H's...and you do know yours better as I now know mine. I'm telling you today that my DH is compassionate, empathetic and still suffers from low-level anxiety, fear and distrust...he acts, anyway.

He listens to himself. That's one of the contributors which changed; before, he only listened to me, not himself, and heard constant critique...because I wanted to change his stuff. He heard it. He heard it from everyone...constant critique, ergo, habitual defensiveness.

No longer. What else? 3.5 years of counseling. He's now considering ending it. Seeing his distractions as just that, distractions...and seeing and experiencing a different dance. I changed my steps. I focused inward on me...found where my false payoffs were and shared, shared, shared...ironically, by speaking less...committed in my radical honesty to share my discoveries as mine (not to get him to change with me); my statements of gratitude as they occured; admiration; affection (even when I didn't feel affectionate...I'd ask myself this...Do I want to connect in my marriage? Yes); my openness was the key to change my dance.

I hold myself accountable to me, by me, for my actions. Two nights ago I reacted to an assumption of mine (like the old days) and then planted myself in front of my DH and said, "That was my bad. I am very sorry. I threw it onto you and it was me. I did that." And he said, "I felt so awful in that one instant for letting you down. I heard I failed you and I was a failure."

Crushed my heart...part of the consequences for my actions--which this was seven minutes of our lives...and prior to that, years and years of it. We smiled, kissed, hugged and went on...fully present again...and this intense gratitude flooded through me...unexpected. He accepted my apology and shared his feelings. Am I duping myself? Is this man not different? I experience him very differently, Cat.

You experience H as seeing bad everywhere he looks; which means inside of him, too...though may be disguised, as my DH did, through superiority rather than inferiority--it's the same thing. Your half is you can experience HIM very differently through changing your stuff...your actions, your choice of perception and perspective. And I've repeated this to you a lot, in my perception...if you played together four nights a week, you would experience him very differently right now.

15 hours of just H and you, Cat, hours together playing...games, walks, seeing a new part of town, sitting in a park, acting to those 12 intimacies...listening to him and handing back his stuff...and you sharing your stuff as it happens...both beings, not doings, being present.


Please consider that you may NOT want to experience him any other way...you have a hidden payoff in his constant negativity...worth digging out and examining...it's not real and not really who you are.

Would you consider you may have had to make someone else your cause, control and cure all your life? Beginning with your parents? They did so you felt, believed, acted or didn't act?

You're a terrific writer...punctuate your life.

They did. You felt. Complete sentences. Independently complete.

Back then, you experienced them doing/saying and you feeling as a result of them--heck, biologically YOU are a result of them, aren't you?



Wasn't real or really true. You do and not do. He feels, thinks, believes, perceives. You are not the cause, nor is he.

When you don't set and ENFORCE boundaries, you suffer, so your marriage suffers. Same for your DD. In all your relationships, not enforcing healthy boundaries creates suffering, spreads pain, confusion, miscommunication and disables understanding.

When you stop staying present for his tirades, you will experience him differently. You see better his own suffering, hear how he also denigrates, discounts and dismisses himself, his being. And when you stop being present for it, maybe you will hear where you do the same things to yourself, hear that voice which isn't you in your own head...he didn't put it there, 'k?

When I finally understood that what turned me off so terribly about my DH was actually in me...and I changed my stuff through that realization...embraced those parts of me I'd disowned or lost...then I heard my DH's negativity as his, a quirk of his and it no longer overwhelmed me. And I would say (and still do), "What is in you that this ticks you off so much?" and then I listen, validate and acknowledge. That's it.

Can your H change? Of course! How much? Mind-blowing...I had this issue and asked DH to sit down with me and hear me out...wasn't about our marriage...someone else...and he said, "Sounds to me like you're taking their opinion as fact about you. You taught me it's about them. It's not about you."

Him helping me helps him, too. It's okay to ask for and need your H's help--he's able, Cat. He always was and will be. Need him. Verbally/non-verbally...need him. He's your partner.

LA

*sigh* ok

I hear ya.

I actually have a lot of pans in the fire right now, change wise. Things I plan to do differently. Things to watch out for. I feel like I need a cheat sheet, to keep track of them all, lol.

I've already been doing a lot of that 'for him' stuff, like hugging and kissing him when he gets home, cooking favorite foods (heck, cooking period!), things that do make a difference for him. Fake it til you make it.

Thanks for the help, y'all, it's helped me define everything better.

btw, ears, yeah, I've seen some little changes. I feel better to be giving back to him again, after all my withdrawal. I know I'm half the reason he's down, so I think that the better I make our homelife and 15 hours, the more optimistic he'll be.

One of his things is that he expected to be a millionaire by 30. Seriously. If he had a little more faith in himself, less fear of rejection, he could have done it. Always afraid to take that leap into starting a business. If I had been better with money, he wouldn't have had to worry about my bills, and he might have. Anyway, between not reaching that very real goal, and getting laid off after 24 years, and buying into a job where he basically got swindled, he's just so far away from what he wanted. The best thing so far is that he's letting me pay his bills online for him, and I created a worksheet and am showing him where his money goes, something he's never done, ever. So I think my changes are starting to give him a little hope.

Maybe I'll get a book on ACoA and read pieces to him.

I'm allergic to sighs...freak me out. They have so many different meanings growing up...there was the sigh to look out for when I was gonna get hit and it was my fault for making her hit me...there was the sigh preceding the "you have no common sense" and the sigh of contentment...stress relieving ones I heard in unison from the other room while my parents watched tvs.

Cat, I admire, adore and feel indebted to you for how much you've touched my life here on MB. I do not seek to exasperate, to add to your stress and I'm angry I cannot control how you perceive my posts. I don't like my human limit right now.

These aren't to be planned...we act now and we do it from our code...not based on possible response. We do it for us, we are our own relief (run on sentence, I know)...to know yourself as your ally, your strength, your best friend and peace...this is my wish for you...and this is the way through. Was for me. You certainly take what you want and leave the rest. You will do when you choose to...not conditioned on anything, no predicaments. Just you doing and not doing. You just being, too. A human being.

You are not broken. You are not defective, less than. You never will nor can you be, ever. This is where those massive truthisms are real...not like "He never empties the trash." These are real.

Hugging and kissing is for you, too...you feel affection when you give it...touching is always two ways. I hear you're acting from love based on your commitment, not your present feeling. Don't block out resulting feelings from your awesome choices...when you hug and kiss, you connect...you affirm this is your partner, your ally.

That's why faking it until you make it works...if you allow in all the love from your acts of love. Allow in the connection from connecting...if you choose to see it as all give and no receive, you're blocking. It's like hugging him and not yourself inside...not experiencing as it truly is.

Reward yourself and go nuts...you are his world. That has horrendous ramifications and deep connection. You want to cut out from being his whole world, and be the partner you really are in it...in balance. Not too much burden of what you cannot control, and not enough connection to share experiences. You're going for the 90 degrees, not the routine all or nothing.

Takes time, acting now as you are, and sharing more of yourself. Even as you make the dinner, say, "I believe you feel loved when I do this. I feel loving when I do it."

Two sentences said in your own beautiful words...not another change...an accompaniment.

I believe you're already experience the relief from your new actions...and there's more and more...and then joy through connection, too. Not dependent on him, his feelings or changes. When you change your perception and perspective...everything in the world changes. I promise.

Your acts of love are inspiring...they matter. They are not discounted. You're playing a new melody and my request is that you begin to sing, too...same time...same reason...because you are here to be known and to know.

Honor is mine to know you in this way. I feel like I'm hording because your H doesn't have this opportunity.

LA

Cat, what a great idea! I've been doing that at work, making a "Goals for the Week," which I put on the Sunday page of the calendar, and then break that up into doable goals for each day of the week. Jayne's Tools To Life program includes a daily checklist that can be done in under 5 minutes, and then a Goal Tracker tool for the other things that are important to you, like exercising.

"Fake it til you make it." I always HATED that expression. I filter that as, follow someone else's aganda. Because they said so. Instead of that phrase, I like to think about my values, and then identify what actions would follow my values. Like making dinner when I'm feeling badly about H, I look at that as acting on my values, not as pretending to feel something that I am not. I feel good about lving from my values, not about doing something nice about someone who in that moment hates me. I see how that is honest for other people to say, but it was not honest for me to say. Maybe I'll get there. But choosing my actions from my values sits better with me than the expression, "Fake It til you Make It"



Cat, have you read GG's post to Raven this morning? We've got to let go of the response. Some people will be moved by living in a more positive environment, like your counselor said. May well be most of us. But a big message I got from LA is Separate But Equal. No control, in the end, of whether he experiences his life as better or not. It's worth it to make *your* life better, cat! KWIM?


I'm sorry to hear about how he had a dream and didn't reach it. I can really relate. That 3 A's awareness, acceptance, action has really helped me with some dissappointments. Is he a reader? Alanon has a book, "Transforming Our Losses," that I've heard recommended a lot for grieving.


Cat, my sponsor suggested this for me not to read to my H, but or me to have greater understanding on what triggers him, since he is not always willing to communicate to me what it is that set him off. For example, broken promises, commiting to doing someing I wasn't sure I'd be able to do. It was a big deal if I said I think I can do something, like drop a letter off at the post office, and then I ran out of time and dropped it into the mail drop at work instead. A BIG DEAL. Good to know so now I can say, I think I'll have time, but I'll let you know for sure by noon. So then he can plan accordingly, maybe he wants to drive to the PO, or maybe the mail drop is okay for him.

Noted. H doesn't read; he's dyslexic. Used to brag about how he made it through high school without reading a single book. Now he tells D17 it was the wrong thing to do.

He wanted to go to college so bad, but his dad drank his college money away. And then H had to raise his siblings, work 3 jobs. If he had gone to college and gotten an engineering degree, he'd be a force to be reckoned with. He's that smart. He WOULD be a millionaire, because that paper would have given him the self-esteem he lacks.

Anyway, he likes for me to tell him things, as weird as that sounds, because he sees me as smart. Just yesterday he told D17 that she got his looks (I said 'thanks a lot') but she got my brains. I actually braved myself and said 'you think I'm smart?' He said yeah. I said 'but you're always telling me what I'm doing wrong, that I keep making mistakes. How can you think I'm smart if you think that about me?' D17 chimed in with 'he means you're book smart.'

Anyway, when I tell him about stuff, he absorbs it and then goes out and uses it as though the knowledge is coming from him. So maybe he'd be open to learning about ACoA.

I think this is very common. I always have a little laugh inside when I hear somene spouting off something I told them in another conversation.

Your husband sounds like a classic controller. He was given wayyyyy too much responsibility at a young age, and it affected how he sees the world. I would imagine that he sees life as a difficult series of dangerous events that one must carefully naviagate through. One false move, and poof!

This could be why he is constantly correcting you and your daughter. Not so much out of superiority (although it comes across that way), but out of fear that if one thing is done wrong, then "something" horrible will happen.

That's a really good observation. I know fear rules him, but I never really thought about him thinking about disaster, but that's probably pretty accurate. I wonder if I can find some way to work that into our collective consciousness. If I could get him to see that we can survive anything together, maybe I can make some headway on that fear.

Thanks!

Cat, I think there's a DJ in that sentence, but I'm having a hard time identifying it. I think his fear would be his stuff to work through, or not. What about sharing your O&H and letting go of the response? And thoughtful requests and negotiation and boundaries to protect you from taking on the consequences of his fear, like his DJs and AOs?

How have you all been doing with his AOs?

The only thing I've done so far is to walk away. Working on D17's car every weekend is very stressful, so there's been a lot of tension. But I've been doing a lot of walking away, going inside for awhile, but I don't know that he recognizes it for what it is. I'm not really into improving that part of me right now, you know? I keep thinking about setting up IC again, and not following through. Can't really tell if the ADs are doing anything, although I do feel more like accomplishing stuff at home, so maybe that's how it's working out.

Anyway, I recognize the DJ too, even when I wrote it. I think when D17 goes back to school and we get the vacation out of the way, my life will settle down and her 18th birthday will be over, and I'll be ready to focus on myself again and start reading and all.

I do have one good accomplishment to report. One night last week, after D17 made dinner, H was sitting on the couch as usual, I got up to clean the kitchen (whoever cooks doesn't have to clean), and I asked H to come help me clean. He literally said "Why?" I took a breath and said, "Well, because D17 cooked, and she cleans every other night and I cook every other night, so it would be nice if you'd help us clean tonight." He actually got off the couch and helped! Without a complaint. And two nights ago, he got off the couch and took his shirt off, dropped it on the couch, and started walking to the bedroom. I said "Will you take your shirt with you?" He stopped and said "What?" like he was shocked. I said "Will you take your shirt with you into the bedroom so it's not just laying on the couch?" He did! A little ticked, and he just dropped it on the floor in the bedroom, but he did it.

So I'm considering that my headway, giving him opportunities to feel good about helping us, lol.

cat, I'm very proud of you for your O&H with your H! Asking him to help clean up after dinner, and to take his shirt with him into the bedroom, are great steps! And he didn't explode!

That's great. Keep up the good work.

I'm glad ears caught that DJ too. When I read it, I had an undercurrent of feeling unsettled but I didn't identify why.

I guess disaster is different from person to person. To someone with a low self-esteem, a colleague pointing out something that you have done that was sub-standard could be a disaster.

People whose parents accepted nothing less than perfection have a hard time accepting that they are not perfect. I had this problem with my own parents.

The thing that helps me get over this is to acknowledge what things I have control over, and what things I don't. Perhaps an understanding of this can help your dh. I don't know how you can convey this to him, however.

I find myself saying this a lot "well, what can you do". In other words, people will do what they want, and we have no control over this.

I have a bit of low self-esteem, and what helps me from my dh is when he says "You've done everything that you could". This helps me feel better about my efforts and to release the end result. Its kind of like, I've fought the good fight, and now I can rest knowing that I've done my best.

It's a good feeling. Things don't always go like I've planned, but I've tried as best as I am able. Maybe if you can convey this to your dh, he will feel more respected.

Happy, again, this is wonderful stuff! Thank you!

I really do think I can work on this aspect. I've been trying not to tell him how to fix his problems, which I learned here, only hurts his self-esteem, instead asking him how he's going to fix it, and he really responds.

But he values my opinions on anything outside the marriage, so I think he will listen if I become 'philosophical' and suggest this.

Thanks for another good suggestion.