Thank you SB....I am glad for the insight....especially with regard to the anger you felt when your FWH attempted to identify and meet needs. My BW might be in a place where it's like "great...your doing this now and I am pissed...where were you before?" So, I am understanding your plan to mean that I should continue....okay...


Communication:

Yes, there really isn't much communication now, of course unless it involves the children.

I heard what you said about comm. style. I find it difficult to express myself here...Mostly now because I feel edited so much it's tough to try and formulate a sentence that won't piss everyone off...So I agree I am probably not clear.

As far as credibility...My word and deeds now match. With kids, very involved in school, activities, community. Always was that way. My schedule allows for a lot of involvement.....There isn't monkey business with money, checks....and won't be.

I addressed all questions re: my relationship, none have been asked in over a year...what do you suggest here?

Needs:

I continue to try and pick up information that might help me meet EN. For example: Car broke down...on duty but left to resolve the mechanical problem within about 5-10 minutes...then got everyone an ice cream. Son was crying last night before BW to go away on a short trip...BW asked me to come because he upset (being away for any extended period of time from either one of us is hard)..went over, sat and held him for a bit...played a game or two...tucked the others in bed and left. When sick last week, offered to take kids so BW could rest...to bring supper...Are you advising I continue as such? As you can see by my BFF IAM, many suggestions are that I move to Toledo. I understand that I don't want to "overpursue" and cause pain, but in the interactions I do have I want to use them to show the person I can be...

As I have said before, a long time has passed and the "ideal scenario" may never be an option. I presented per Steve's instructions...but BW isn't comfortable in contemplating this idea. I understand. Regardless I feel as if continuing to implement Plan A's is the choice as I want to try and relate in the best way possible even though we may just be co parents. This applies to everyone really...my children, family, friends, coworkers...

Are you now together with your FWH?

I am with FWH. We are recovered in our marriage, just had 33rd anniversary.

I still have some bouts of resentment, to tell you the truth. We are about 2 years, 9 months out from d-day. His affair was in the fall of 2005. I found out by discovering photo of OW on his computer, with her top off.

Not fun.

As for changing your posting style to make others happy, well, that's not for them to dictate. I'm not nuts about your posting style. I have to translate it into what you mean, and it's hard for me to follow your train of thought. I suspect when you have deep conversations with your wife, she feels overwhemed, too.

One of the things my FWH did was to be very consistent. It took a very long time for me to trust him with my feelings and thoughts, because he was

untrustworthy.


Do you understand that you have put yourself in a position that you are untrustworthy?

That your BW does not, and cannot, trust you with her feelings and thoughts?


Beyond your infidelity sexually, there are other factors there.

You and the OW shared accounts of intimate details of your marriage together. Your BW was discussed by you with the OW. Your BW knows that, and knows that you said negative things about her to the OW. She also knows that you protected the relationship with the OW, and protected the OW over the BW for your own purposes.

This places BW at an extreme disadvantage. Here's how I felt. I don't know if your BW ever expressed this to you, so maybe you need to know.

I pictured my FWH and his OW discussing my shortcomings as a person. They discussed my faults, and what was wrong with my body. They talked about what was so much better about HER body. They talked intimately about my sexual proclivities, how I was perhaps unsatisfactory in performance in certain aspects in my husband's eyes, and how much better the OW was. Maybe they talked about what types of sexual positions I used, or didn't use. Maybe there was discussion of detailed intimate parts of my body, of grooming habits, of preferences of perfumes.

I wasn't THERE. I DON'T KNOW THESE DETAILS. I don't know what was said in the afterglow. Or in the warm-up.

I'm in competition with a fantasy - a ghost, a mirage, something I cannot see or hear or touch - but HE KNOWS AND I DON'T.

I know what he tells me, and what I've been brave enough to ask. What I think I can stand knowing. What he thinks I can take knowing that he as lovingly can tell me. And a blend of the two.

I don't know how they got into doing what they did, why they ended up having sex. I don't understand the decision, and I don't think I ever will. It's hard for someone like me to live with NOT KNOWING, because I am a scientist, and not knowing something is just aggravating. I feel like I should be able to look it up and KNOW. I can't do that.

I hate that.

For your wife, to have someone have your attitude - from your earlier posts - that you exhibited as an unrepentant wayward spouse, it's no wonder that she is devastated. I'm not surprised that she isn't over it yet - and that she is distrustful of your "changes". I am somewhat distrustful of my FWH's changes, and I KNOW he is remorseful, honest in his meaning to change, and dedicated to the marriage.

Your BW doesn't have that luxury, bnw. What you left in your wake was a total lack of regard for her pain. You left lies on the table, expectations that she is the one who needed to do the work to fix and change things, and an unrepentant attitude that the affair just "happened" and that everybody ought to just get over it and move forward. After all, you said you were sorry and that is that.

But now you realize that you walked away and should have done things differently. You should have been honest and open right away. You should have been the one doing the changing and the working right away. You should have been repentant right away. And you now understand that the words "get over it" should never have passed through your lips.

So how do you fix that?


You know how.

If I were you, I think I would make plans for a very public and honest apology to her.

Sit your BW and children down. Apologize to her and to them for your behavior during and after the affair. Do it as a MAN. And MEAN IT.

Humble yourself before them.

Show them that you were wrong, and

EVEN IF

you think you have done this before

DO IT AGAIN.

A public and honest apology for the things that I and others have enumerated (one of the other posters did a fantastic job of listing BS experiences and pain!) will go very far in beginning the road to showing your BW that you truly do "get it".

Then, go to her family and repeat the public apology.
Then, go to YOUR family and repeat the public apology.

Once you get the apologies under your belt, you should start understanding what humiliation feels like, and what it means to be humbled.

That attitude of yours will change, because you will have forced yourself to accept publicly what you KNOW privately.

But people will begin to have a little more respect for you. Never does a person apologize humbly that he doesn't gain respect. Watch and see if I'm not wrong.

SB

Thank you...


I understand what you are saying about the OP having a window into the family....not fair.

Def know showed untrustworthy...so trying to keep walking straight now (have since..man...really focused over a year now?)...no matter the outcome.

I don't think I was trying to get her to move fast to recovery...or "get over it"...I don't think you "get over it"..I guess I am still confused though how swift and severe it went to divorce (disclosure to filing was something like 4-5 weeks)....I know it can go that route...I know BW has the right to choose...I just couldn't draw my BW to the table to entertain....and that is the cross I bear now and I am really sorry we couldn't get to the table....

Did apologize to children and BW.

Attempted to apologize to BW family. No return calls. Mail returned unopened. No email responses. Continue?
The litigation has been so contentious I don't want to get into trouble for harassing anyone...

Did apologize to my family.

Issue an apology through your lawyer. If you initiated the D, then drop it.

What could have been done to eaze my pain?

The biggest thing would have been ownership of the magnitude of the pain caused and no belittling of it.

I've been belittled. I've been told, "It's been 2 years. Why can't you just get over it and move on?"

There has been no acknowledgement of the mountain I've had to climb emotionally and to add insult to injury she's now trying to use the fact that I've sought therapy to help me cope with the changes against me in court.

So if you really want to ease her pain, then acknowledge that you're the source of it. How?

Don't just say sorry. Say sorry that you betrayed her. Say that you're sorry that you've turned her life and the kid's lives upside down. Tell her you're sorry you willingly chose to be with another woman.

Tell her that you understand that you can't make it up to her, but that you will do what you can to do so.

Tell her that you are getting help to understand why you strayed. Tell her that you're reading books, going to therapy, and doing the sould searching to give you the tools to keep from straying ever again.

Tell her that you're willing to do whatever is necessary to win her trust back to include full access to your email, cell phone records, and daily schedule. Tell her you'll buy a GPS where she can track your movements.

Show her you're willing to do anything to make it up and apologize.

Tell her that if she chooses to go down the path of divorce, then you will be the bigger person and not make it difficult on her.

My father was exceptionally generous to my mother in their divorce. He didn't fight her on too much at all and let her keep almost everything, knowing he was at fault for what happened.

A big gesture on your part would be to start being generous in your D.

Request visitation with your kids, but let her have the tie breaking vote in legal custody matters.

Request a shared arrangement.

I don't agree with iam. You're the father of the children and you're not actively in an affair anymore. Yes, many times us as BSes wish our WS would just run away and leave the kids and I alone, but the truth is that the kids need both of you.

I need my father as much as I need my mother despite his infidelity. He and I have made our peace. It took years, but we made the peace.

So the message to you is that you can be the bigger man in every way.

I'm not going to bash you. I'm going to encourage you. Yes, you made a mistake and it was a big one. But there is no sin in the bible that isn't forgiveable and Christ taught us to forgive. He surrounded himself with imperfect people who committed adultery or were theives and tax collectors. All He asks of us is to repent for our actions, seek forgiveness, and follow him.

I'm not preaching to you. I'm using Him as an example. It's the only example I need on how you should be approached.

To my fellow posters: We'll never convert a soul by bashing them over the head and calling them sinners and adulterers. People convert because they want to be like the other memebers of the group. In other words, follow the example. I don't recall any story where Jesus tells a person to go away because they've sinned.

So lets be more inclusive and less bashing. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm merely asking us to follow an example and be kind to a man who recognizes he did a wrong. He may talk and write different, but that's no reason to bash him. He may be lost and not understand the magnitude of what he did, but he's trying and he's asking questions.

Telling him to go away is condemning him to stay lost in the woods and destroying any chance he could restore a family for the kids that have been hurt by this event.

Wow Pom...unexpected...thank you for the suggestions and support.

The D is over...has been for about a year. BW filed within a few weeks of our initial discussion...and, WOW...did it take off with a life of its own...

Did not contribute to the D process....and it was really hard. When asked in court, I guess near the end, if I wanted the divorce..I at least got to say "no...I don't." I apologized in court...numerous times...I feel good that I got to say it "out loud"...It ultimately didn't matter...but I was able to publicly say I was sorry and I didn't want to go down that road...

I have had advised BW that I have been in therapy for the past 1.5 years, have read books, sought support with family, church...trying to rebuild some friendships....No luck with BW's family, though I understand and won't push...

I guess I wonder that, at this point, with a year of D behind us...does anyone ever find their way back? Do I give up the "ideal scenario" or continue to pursue it?

I Plan A all the time...try and wake up and say to myself, "How do I protect my family today..." that includes my BW...I just try and remain open...and, if invited in (like when my BW called from their vacation spot today and asked to calm my daughter because she had a bad bee sting...and unfortunately tends to react badly...I was there...Or keeping my eye out for a little, economical car for which BW could reduce some expenses used to support a large vehicle....I made their well child check ups and dentist appointments for when they return....)...I just try to adopt that way of thinking...it doesn't really matter whether there is a shift now or in the future...Adopting a kinder, gentler perspective can't be wrong for BW, kids...family, friends...

While on duty tonight...a colleague was talking to me about an experience he had...."danger Will Robinson" written all over it...I talked about how a "little text" here or a midnight phone call there was assuming a level of risk he might want to rethink....I felt good about the opportunity to contribute something to a friend...the alternative is he**....is that the lesson here? Is that what I am supposed to do?

I really wish this was a bad dream...I am so very sorry...

Black

black,

There is a shift in your thinking that must take place. It's tough because you can't really plan A someone who is divorced from you.

So there has to be an acceptance of the situation.

It is tempting to do things for the ex. But instead of being helpful, it actually comes off as controlling. Why? Well, giving "advice" that isn't welcome is a way of controlling.

I'm not accusing you of being controlling. But it comes off that way. Good intentions can appear controlling when everyone's attitude about what you're doing is, "Hey, you're not her H anymore. Quit telling her what to do or how to act."

It's tough, even my ex does it. I know she has good intentions, but they don't come off that way to me. She'll offer "suggestions" on what I should do with the kids on my time and I don't welcome the "suggestions" because it's MY time with the kids. So her "suggestions" are really an indirect way of controlling.

Now I could argue and fight with her about her "suggestions" but I simply let them go. I also look out for any such "suggestions" from me and can recognize when I'm making those mistakes. I do make them, but I'm trying to be conscious of them.

So let her go. Do the things with your kids that you need to do as a father. Own up to your mistake to them when they ask you what you did and do so in an age appropriate manner. Why? So they never blame themselves.

Knowing the truth won't hurt them. Owning it is good. My father owns his mistakes. He can't undo them. But he's forgiven for them and I as his son can't hold those past mistakes against him if I want to have a relationship with him.

Yes, tell your friend about the slippery slope of infidelity. No one ever starts with, "Hey, I'm married but you're hot and I want you and I'm going to take my clothes off so we can screw."

It's a slow burn and it creeps and creeps and builds. That's why I wasn't happy at all about some of the "friendships" my ex wanted to have when we were married. I felt violated and uncomfortable by things she was doing that were "no big deal".

To her she was just playing video games with a guy friend in the middle of the day. To me it was a slippery slope which goes from video games in a public place to video games at his house to "oh, how did we end up in your bed" kind of behavior. I protested then and stopped it before such a thing could happen.

But she thought this behavior while married was ok, (hanging out regularly with opposite sex friends). To me it's playing with fire. Why? Because marriages go through weak spots and it's in those weak spots where "gosh, how did we end up in your bed" ends up happening.

So yes, tell your friend to get his head out of his a$$. There's nothing more powerful than someone saying, "you want to f up your marriage like I did? Now get your head out and go take your wife out on a date and tell her how much you love her."

I did this to a very close friend of mine and shook him up pretty good. He thanks me for it today because I stopped him from going down a path he was on.

He still thanks me for it.

Good friends do that. They kick your a$$ when it needs kicking.

So tell your bud whatever you need to.

bnw,

Your posts are beginning to sound more apologetic. More sincere now.


I would say that you could write a letter of apology to your wife.

Write out what you think you understand about her level of pain. How you betrayed her, and what you now know about what that must have meant to her.

Tell her about what you thought THEN, and what you understand NOW. Tell her about the changes you have made in your life and yourself, and in your thinking, because of your affair.

Then, ASK her what she would like to see from you in the way of restitution. While you are doing things that you think are the right things, it's altogether possible that there is something she has wanted you to do that you haven't even considered.

It might surprise you - she may ask you to stop doing something. Or, she may ask you to do something so far out of the ordinary that you wouldn't have thought of it in a million years.

But ask her what her mind sees as restitution.



There is a book available called something like the 5 Languages of Forgiveness, or something like that.

You might want to read it.



Also, I am wondering if you have told her everything? That may be the sticking point. The idea that it is all out in the open, but you have held something back - that may be sticking in her craw.


You also asked if it is possible, after a divorce, for things to recover. I have seen it happen. My husband's parents were divorced, and his father married his affair partner - the OW. He and the OW were married for about 7 years, and his father actually adopted the OW's daughter.

Ultimately, they divorced.

A few months later, my husband's parents got back together, and remarried.


Last night, my husband and I had a very long talk about this. My FWH said he never forgave his father for having the affair, for leaving his mom, for marrying the OW, and actually,

for coming back after all of that.


He said after 8 years, he had finally accepted all of the pain and agony, the divorce, all of it. And then his father comes home, still entitled..............still entitled to it all - to his mom, to his boys.

And still never once, acknowledging what he had done. Never making restitution, and expecting the boys to "respect" him.


My FWH says that he sees too much of his father in himself, and understands his own stupid behavior. He hates what he became, and that he was like his father.

He cannot forgive himself.


It has been a very rough 2 days at my house. See, if you really are a repentant person, bnw, this crappola drags on and on and on.

Maybe your BW needs to hear this stuff from your lips, without the elipses.

With humility. She needs to see you BROKEN.



SB

I think this is key.

Were you a serial cheater or was this a one time deal?

That's important to know too.

Hi guys...

Been out a bit...suffered an injury on duty...but getting back in the game now.

SB: Really, since the divorce was filed immediately, my ability to communicate at length with my BW has been non-existent. I think it may be related to advice from the legal team, but I really don't know. I tried the phone calls, the emails, the letters, texts even...BW's response over and over was "too late. Not interested. You !@#$% up, live with it." I never could get past that. Not once in 3 years. Now, from what I have heard hear, that simply may be the answer and I have to accept it. But my counselor said recently that she wondered about that...the "one strike and your out" action is less typical.

As I said before, and IAM would slay me for this, but I felt I had been a pretty decent person before this relationship. That's what kills me. I would be the last person to think of doing something like this...It really hasn't been my style...and won't ever be again. The shame I feel about it all is something I will always walk with.

Anyway....after we talked about the OP, and where I was at with that, the whole thing was over. And then the D was so sweeping, fast, and aggressive...there was no where to get off. I was talking to Steve as fast as I could...trying to get into Ideal Scenario mode...there was not one opening...I agree my BW didn't want to or couldn't engage in a second try. I wanted a second chance, asked for it...part of me does believe I deserved it...I wanted a chance to show who I was, who I could be...and that we could partner together to make this work. I know it would be a long process. I know the pain I caused would be difficult to overcome. I wanted to try. Just committed to doing it regardless. And I always will.

What I ruminate about constantly is "what could I have done different to change her mind?" I Plan A'd, regardless of outcome...Became a better parent...Studied the dynamics of relationships to discern where I went wrong....tried to apply the lessons....I can't get it out of my head..."why no second chance." It was so decisive....and my BW not a decisive person...I kept hoping that, if I continued to model, a break would happen somewhere....It hasn't come yet....I feel like I want to wait...but it keeps me paralyzed. I can't think. I can't move...just keep trying to understand how to help...

Pom: I understand...I'll keep it all in check. I only really express myself if I have a legit concern with the kids (BW left my 9 yr old in a resort hotel room alone while he ill and napped. He called me cuz he alone and couldn't find the rest of the family....Not cool and I had a problem with it). I am not an [censored] about it, but I just use assertion to express concern and try to collaborate...Anyway...I don't want to overpursue...and I'll watch that. I guess I just want to be seen as a "friend to the family"...available and open to help if and when asked.

SB: Will try and ask BW her few on restitution...you are right. Maybe I didn't ask in the right way. I expect to hear crickets...but I'll give it a go. BW's family won't respond to me at all. No ability to get to them to repair. Has a lot to do with who they are...

This haunts me, really. I wanted a second chance...what could I have done differently to get it....I said yes to everything....listened and agreed to do anything...It still wasn't enough...Would anything ever been enough? Part of me started to feel like a sucker....I know it's unfair...but something felt very gamey at the end here...Maybe I deserve the game, and the rejection....and I take it. But is there? Was there a point where she'd let me up? Just for a second? And if it ever comes, what do I do?

I know someone is going to say I am playing the victim....or pity party or something like that....But I feel like I need to express myself honestly so I can resolve too....I am really confused about this now and I can't get it out of my head....

Thoughts?

I don't have suggestions on what you could have done differently - after all, that is water under the bridge.

I did want to comment that this is the most sincere and legible post I've read of yours. I don't know if you've reached a turning point or if you put supreme effort into this particular post, but there is a difference. A step forward, in any case.

Is it possible that your kindness just makes it harder for your BW?

I know for myself, it is easier to accept the divorce when my ex is being a jacka$$. When he is being decent, there is all this "why can't this good man just love meeee?" crap that goes on in my head.

I am assuming that you are a remorseful WH who really means well.

bnw,

I think we have finally seen the bigger you inside of the shell that you put up for the outside world.

Your most recent post shows what you should be giving us - it's the most revealing post from you yet.

It shows what I would have wanted to hear from a WS, and you say you are three years out. You've said you felt this way from early on, but your posts from when you first showed up are foggier, more entitled, and more defensive. It's typical, and that's not a 2X4.

You're right about your BW - it is unusual for the very decisive action to be taken right away and for there to be no sway in it. If what you are saying is true - that this affair was not characteristic of your nature and that you immediately showed remorse, it would be unusual for a swift kick to the curb without even a tiny look back by the BS.

But that's what she did.

She may be dealing with something that you have hit on slightly, and maybe has crossed your mind - her family. It may very well be that their advice was to leave you, and the only way that they would support her through all of this was if she did in fact leave you.

Now, she has to stick with the decision, and it is done.

It's not all that simple, either.

There is also the issue of the state of the marriage leading up to your affair. It may very well be that she was unhappy in the marriage, and your affair gave her the reason to leave. This does happen - and your changes now are irrelevant to her. That is hard to hear, and hard to accept, but have you given that consideration? Have you asked her this?

Even if she will not talk with you about it, I wondered if you two had this conversation at all through the years.

Another thing to ask you about also goes back to the state of the relationship prior to the affair. Was the marriage good, stable, and loving prior to the affair? Or was it rocky or full of drama? I ask because of something I heard today.

I heard some discussion that if a relationship is rocky or unstable, and one person makes changes that stop the drama, it often leads to the end of the relationship - by the OTHER PERSON. The other person leaves the relationship because to remain means that the relationship will be "drama free", and they don't know how to have a happy relationship - it scares them - so they leave the person who has made good changes in themselves. They actually don't want to remain where it means there will be work to do, making positive changes, etc., because it means they have to address THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. Could this be your ex-wife?

SB: A long time ago, someone said something about "handing my BW a get out of jail free card"....My therapist said something similar. Maybe my BW really wanted out, couldn't do it for whatever reason, and this allowed for the "walk away" without just being honest that it wasn't right for her or something. I just don't know.

I really thought we started out strong, despite a hard start. BW went through difficult, prior marriage and had very young baby...Knew I really needed to think about it...because I knew a little girl would be involved. If I was going to make the relationship work, I need to commit to her as well. And I did...to both of them. BW's ex was compromised...mental health problems and substance abuse. Very neglectful of the baby. Just a nightmare. It was complicated, but we got through it and things settled down.

I def. wanted a big family...always had (Irish Catholic...what can I say?). Struggled with infertility, but was so blessed when our second daughter was born. That is when the trouble started...and I thought, "uh oh...I may be in trouble here". BW started in with some really insensitive behaviors...and it worsened over the years (eg. I had undergone surgery, was hospitalized for over a week, and my BW didn't really visit nor did she pick me up when I was released. I drove myself to and from the hospital." Explanation? She, on the day of my release, went to a birthday party. Another time, when I was about to announce to my parents, at a family dinner, that my baby son was on the way, BW said "I won't love this baby...It isn't yours anyway." A general pattern of rudeness, belittling behavior, lack of engagement in the family, even cruelty, and the like developed. I really believe it has something to do with a LARGE class difference that exists between us...BW: Very Affluent ME: Not so much. BW's parents didn't like me..."wrong side of the tracks" comments were prevalent...from everyone. Anyway, I handled ...but it wears, you know? BW told me, when talking to a life insurance broker when pregnant, not to bother insuring me as I was an economic liability...I don't make much as a public safety officer...You get the picture.

Things really started to go downhill when we started to see the evolution of our family and life together, very differently. Vague complaints of not feeling "fulfilled" were declared...but I never knew what that meant. I asked, suggested counseling, talked to her family when THEY were befuddled by BW's demeanor, seeming lack of direction, etc....the marriage just laid there like a wet blanket. I just figured, well, you made your bed...so I worked, took the kids to football practice, mowed the lawn...what every other person does...Just continued to live. BW always invited....I knew whatever I was doing wasn't helping, enough...or whatever...I feel like I tried to at least offer my support or help, even if I couldn't be the one to enact change.

I did get angry at various points, because of the impact I saw on all of our children...Something wasn't right...But...damn...we had so much...what was so bad? And, I to be honest, I gave up...I am ashamed that I gave up...but I did. I didn't know what else to do. I am more skillful now, more educated...but I am sure I was lacking back then.

Through the D, my attorney noticed a lot of "fund shifting" really early on...including some left to me by my grandparents. BW's family one of most prominent banking families in the world...In all honesty, I really didn't keep up with stuff like that...relying on "family" help with investments and things like that. Let's just say I learned a pretty expensive lesson here...
She seemd to think something along the same lines as the counselor...as if she was gearing up to leave at some point and was trying to get positioned well.

I have so many people telling me things...I have a hard time sorting it all out. The end result, as Turtle said...well, it's over and that's that. I hate it every second. I go from feeling completely ashamed...to feeling like I might have been set up...to not feeling anything.

I want to make sure I take responsibility for what I am supposed to take responsibility for...you know? I want to make sure I haven't missed anything and that I continue to atone for what happened...protect my family...all of us...from here on out...and find a way through it...

I guess I still have a hard time believing it's really over.

bnw,

From what you have said, it IS really over.

But you said she said the one child isn't yours? She said that?

I would petition for a DNA test. Or, there is one now that you don't need the mother involved. If you doubt paternity, the dad and the child are all that is needed for this test. Check online for it. You don't even need to let her know you're doing it. If it turns out to be that you are not the father, then it might be worth doing something through the courts.

It might be a very interesting outcome. And it could very well explain why she "opted out" of the marriage.

Might be worth spending some change on it.


SB

SB: I can remember that comment as clear as day...family gathered around, my parents there...our children there...a "pre-holiday" get together...When my BW said that, I thought my mother was going to go over the table at her...It was the most horrible comment...My parents, normally pretty reserved about getting into the middle of things, decided to hold a "come to Jesus" meeting with me shortly thereafter. They expressed their concerns then. Always supported my desire to find a way around it all...but they def not happy about what the had begun to see as well.

The comment was not surprising, however. In fact, when I learned the news of his pending birth...I KNEW it would get&^%#@ up somehow...tainted, spoiled, ruined...I held that news with me for about a month. I just wanted it to have it be me and him...just for a bit..of pure, unadulterated bliss..the knowledge of a new child. I was so happy....When we told BW's parents, I was met with "another one?"....It didn't matter...I was in love with him already and it was about him...In some ways, this "hard start" made him even more special to me...He's my little guy...

I don't even want to know. I love him too much. Does that make sense? I'd like to think he has my eyes...

Black,

Just reading your thread and one question keeps coming up:

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS GUY???

1. You have an affair.

2. By your account your W was never/not a loving W for a long time.

3. She was a cruel woman.

4. She had no interest in forgiveness.

You are still focusing on a marriage that you helped destroy and that was not much of a marriage to begin with. I am leery of trusting people, but the one group of people one should really consider trusting is your own parents. Their take on this marriage is the one you might want to listen to.

It would seem they did not think highly of your W for reasons you cannot seem to see. So why don't you see their point?

It is time to look at the data Black. The data says: MOVE ON. The data says you screwed up. The data says you got screwed. The data says this was a poor marriage that may or may not have been improved at some point, but is beyond hope of recovery now. The data says she wanted out of this marriage big time. The data says you did as well.

LOOK AT THE DATA.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

I KNOW! I don't understand WHY I ruminate on this....I am data driven for sure. What you say makes sense. I am having a hard time admitting it. I don't know why. And it is all I seem to think about. Maybe because I always thought of myself as someone who could help (casualty of the profession, no doubt)...

Yesterday, I picked up kids, went swimming, then visited a neighbor who's dog recently had puppies (My boys in particular did the "hard sell"..something about depriving them of their right of boyhood to have a dog. I think I now have to get a dog ) BW was running late from work, so I fed the kids, and was helping the them ready their things. As I was tying my youngest son's shoes, he grabbed me by the neck and started crying. Said he missed me. I almost lost it myself. It is EXACTLY THIS..I believe...is why I can't let it go. I don't want this for him... for them....and I couldn't be sorry about anything more in my life...having them suffer this way.

I hate myself for it....

And, I guess I wonder at what point do you just stop trying? Steve said, if I heard correctly, you never stop...I'll always Plan A because it is better to protect the relationshp by acting collaboratively of course...but do you keep hope alive or truely just...stop.

bnw,

In your case, the answer to your question is one you don't want to hear, I'm afraid.

You let the marriage go. But you stay in the lives of the children.

Find another woman to fulfill your need for love, companionship, and marital needs. You learn the MB processes and concepts, and you live them out with a woman who loves you and whom you love.

Your ex-wife is not that woman.

But you continue to support your children in the way they expect and need and deserve.

And you allow your ex-wife the life ahead of her that she chooses, and has chosen.

Let her go. Somehow, I think that is the answer.


SB

I know....it's just hard to accept. The questions linger...and I really don't know why I can't let it go. That is more about me than all of this, I am sure. I just don't understand it....how we got here and why we couldn't get it together to fix it.

Is it just time? Do I just need to keep walking...and then one day it will all fade? My counselor says quit asking questions I'll never know the answer to...that I am making myself crazy and THAT is my problem...

Perhaps I just need to be sad...

It's probably your nature to want to fix things.

You can't fix it.


You know, it may be in the walking away that the fixing occurs.



By setting this thing free, you may very well find the solution.



That is my advice. I am older than you are. I have lived this before, in a different way. Instead of carrying this relationship's burden, put it down and walk on. You will find that someone else will carry it. I speak truth here. Let go of it, so that someone else can carry this. Do not be afraid to let go.

SB