Two thoughts.

One, despite the A, the way he acts is part of an abusive, or controlling, behavior. You need to stand up to it, and he needs to learn you have just as much right to do what you want as he does. Men often don't get that, not the controlling ones, anyway. Have I recommended Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men? I really think you would benefit from reading it.

Two, has he always been like that, or just since the A?

If it's just since the A, I really think you have to get him into some counseling, some way to deal with his feelings. Because they are just festering inside him, and will never just go away. Will get worse.

Oh, and as for him not wanting you to do stuff. Ask yourself if HE does stuff (like the golfing). If he does, then you have just as much right to take off work and go see your friend as he does to play golf. Right? So start making that your barometer. If he could do something, so can you.

Thanks for the thoughts catperson.

Before the A, no, H was not really like this. I would say he had more of a tendency than most people to "expect the world to revolve around him", but he certainly would have never flipped out about me going to the happy hour or me going shopping with a friend.

I guess the reason I struggle with the whole "if he can, I can" mindset, is because then I think to myself that two wrongs don't make a right, and I don't want anything to come across as I am just doing it to "piss him off". Yes, he does stuff all the time. He goes golfing with his buddies, sporting events.... I would say that when possible, he invites me along... although I don't golf (I can't even hit the ball.... I am pretty much a spaz when it comes to golf...), and sometimes if one of his buddies gets 2 tickets to a sporting event and invites him to go, well then I really can't just "tag along" since I don't have a ticket myself, and even if I got one, probably wouldn't be sitting near them and that would be boring.

He also recently went on a weekend long trip for a bachelor party. His independent behavior abounds.... and yet, even though he had an A too, that's OK.

But he justifies him doing this stuff because "I didn't give him the time of day or invite him to things during my A" (true, I'll give him that, but hasn't been true AT ALL for the past year). So he's entitled to retaliate, now.

I guess I just don't want it to come across as independent behavior, or that I don't have regard for the M or his feelings, or won't POJA these things, or that I have gone back to the A behavior or mindset (where I did whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted and really didn't care what he thought at all--- I'll admit it). So I've gone to the opposite extreme to prove a point-- and now its being taken advantage of.

I guess some of it is that when I do these things with my friends or do something for myself, I feel guilty and also I get so nervous about him blowing up and ruining things for me, that I spend the whole time racked with guilt and being nervous about his reaction, that I don't even really end up enjoying it that much...

I am going to spend some time next week in my local Barnes and Nobles checking out the books that you've recommended to me so far on this thread. I haven't gotten around to it yet, and quite frankly, don't really want H seeing me reading the books either. So I figure while he's out of town, it'd be a good time for me to go to the bookstore or to the library to check them out...

And he refuses counseling. Even the last MC we saw (who wasn't that helpful at all, and H stopped going...) recommended that H saw a IC. I think that was part of why H didn't like him... because he felt singled out... the MC never said that I needed IC (I wasn't in IC at the time...), but he said that H would benefit greatly from IC... and H took that to mean that he was crazy and needed help but I wasn't.... so IC is gonna be a tough one for me to sell.

I know I've let it get this way, and I'm surprised, because I never really had trouble "standing up" for myself that much in the past with H or with other guys... (although I'm not that close at all with my family, and I come from a family of screamers and my parents were very domineering and strict)... its just the guilt. And even a year ago, the controlling behavior wasn't THIS bad. Its just spiraled out of control because I let it... because he could, and I let him because I felt guilty. And now I don't know how to get it back where it should be without losing my M again...

E.

Ok. Let me break this down for you.

This is exactly the position I am in. You really should read my thread. But guess what? this whole sentence is about YOU! It is YOUR self-imposed restraints, trying to smooth things over, telling yourself he's more important than you, better than you, smarter, wiser, whatever...where the he11 does that come from? You need to get to an IC to find out why you have such a low opinion of yourself and your worth.

Think about it. A healthy woman who is sure of herself would laugh at her husband if he blows up at her for going to lunch with a friend. Instead, you either tiptoe around it, sneak the time in, or deny yourself your friends just so it won't upset your H. Typical abuse victim behavior that YOU have created trying to get a result out of him. The problem is, every time you give in like that, he takes it, expects it, and takes even more of your power away the next time. By the end, you are no longer even a person, just a shell who spends every waking thought thinking about how NOT to displease her husband. Should I cut my hair? No, he'll get mad. Should I buy margarine instead of butter? No, he'll get mad. Should I let him know I'm upset? Heck no, then he'll blow up!

Ok, this is typical abuse victim talk. You dictate your actions according to NOT DISPLEASING HIM! Do you see it yet? A partner does not have to hide ANYTHING from her spouse. A partner doesn't have to sneak around and do things only when her H won't see it. I bet you even planned to have the book read and hidden (or thrown away) before he gets home, so that he'll never know you even read it. Because you know you're not really going to do anything different; you're just reading it to appease me. But you can't change anything at home...HE'LL GET MAD!

Something LA taught me is that when you are dishonest with your H (hiding the fact that you're unhappy, hiding the book you're reading so he doesn't get mad), you are HURTING HIM! Do you see that? You are taking away his ability to see that he has hurt you and choose whether to do something about it. You are controlling your own abuse by lying to him and yourself.

LET him see the book on your coffee table. LET him ask about it. It's a perfect opportunity for you to tell the truth. To tell him that if it gets bad enough, you will stop loving him and want to separate. He needs to be given this knowledge so that he can have the opportunity to fix things. If you deny him that opportunity, you're no better than him.

My H did the exact same thing. Went to MC to please me, but the minute the C told him that she needed to see him individually before we could go on in MC, he cussed her out, stormed out, and never spoke of MC again. And I never pushed it. So where am I now? Exactly in as bad a place as I was before.

First, your M is NOT your first priority. YOU are. You and your sanity. If you keep the M at all costs without fixing you, you will lose yourself, may even get to the point of preferring suicide to get out like I did; would your mother want you to do that?

Second, the reason you're surprised is that abusers take away your identity one 'giving up' at a time. He comments about your short hair, so you let it grow out to please him. He gripes about your best friend, so you quit inviting her over (isolation). He complains that your hobby takes up too much time, so you give it up (more isolation). He thinks your job is stupid, so you quit it and stay home, with no outside people to talk to (more isolation). He criticizes your mother, so you ask her not to come over any more, so as not to hurt her feelings (more isolation). An extreme example, but a valid one. Think about it.

Third, you really really really need to look into your FOO issues. Your dysfunctional parents are the EXACT reason you are falling into this trap. Please go to IC and talk about them and how you adapted to get what you needed in childhood. You are taking those dysfunctional, unhealthy patterns into your marriage, and they will lead nowhere but to self-despair and misery.

You can do this. But the number one step has to be you taking care of you. If he doesn't like the changes, then he doesn't really love you.

Thank you catperson. That was a 2x4 that I really needed.

OK-- FOO problems:

-- My mom is a very dramatic, overly emotional person (I can remember so many time when we were little my mom screaming at my dad, running out the door, then crying for days in the bedroom refusing to come out) that is now dying with a terminal illness (but instead of making the best of life that she has left, she stays inside and mopes and whines all day and expects everyone else to take care of her....). She's always been demanding and sort of selfish (when I was a child, I had to find rides to my soccer/softball games because my parents wouldn't go, ever-- I had to quit teams because they wouldn't take me). Even though she was distant, she was very strict, if I brought home a B on a spelling test, you would have thought the world was ending and my life was over and I had screwed it all up...

-- My father is a VERY reserved person. I can count the number of times he's called me or I've talked to him on the phone since I moved out of the house (in college) on one hand. He's not affectionate, at all, and is pretty distant.

-- I have one little brother, that is 5 years younger than me. Never really been close with him either, and don't agree with some of his life choices now that he's an adult (he's pretty irresponsible and treats women like crap).

So, in short, I've never been that close with my family. I learned how to make do on my own, pretty much. I've always really taken care of myself. I moved out of my parents house when I was 18, worked full time and put myself through college-- and never really looked back.

I guess I have a tendency to be more forgiving than most people... I tend to let things build and build and build until I snap. That is what got me INTO this mess in the first place... (with my A, I mean).

And I did used to be the kinda person that would laugh at my H if he told me I couldn't go to lunch with my friends. I would have went, I would have turned my phone off and told him to [censored] off if he kept calling. That was the old me. But somewhere along the way, that changed. Really, I think it was when H started traveling for work so much-- I missed the attention/affection, and went into "people pleaser" mode trying to get it back.

When that didn't work, and I was so frustrated and angry and really, HATED him, well, I fell victim to my A (clearly, was a GREAT fix... (sense the sarcasm)).

Now I'm back to feeling incredibly guilty for that, and back in "people pleaser" mode trying to "make amends" for my mistake. I do feel that need to make amends for my mistake. I've become this pathetic heap of a person that has no self-esteem now because of my mistake and having it constantly smeared in my face-- and blatantly having the fact that I haven't been forgiven smeared in my face over and over again.

I realize I need to forgive myself first, but that's hard when you've done something THIS TERRIBLE. Its not like it was something I did unintentionally, or something that wasn't "that bad". It was just about as bad as it gets. I can't think of many other things in my life that I could possibly do that is much worse. I've always sort of been a "goody-two-shoes" to avoid disappointing mom... Its hard to even forgive myself, and part of that is because he hasn't forgiven me, and part of it is because I feel like a horrible person, that scarlet letter A person.

I realize now that I need to forgive myself- whether he does or not. But its hard when you can't live a day without being reminded of it.

Its just I've tried SO HARD to make up for this (and been entirely unsuccessful)-- that at this point the line between "controlling abuse" and "doing things to make amends and prove that I can do this" has been blurred-- and its MY guilt that has blurred it.

How do you forgive yourself for something like this?? I know there's a lot of emphasis here on BS forgiving WS-- how does a WS forgive themselves? That is sorely lacking here. I know most BS would probably answer "you don't". But as a WS, you can't live with this forever, this guilt. You have to let it go to be normal and have a healthy relationship, I've realized this-- look at the disaster that our relationship is BECAUSE I haven't forgiven myself!

And yes, you are right about the book, I'd probably hide it because I know he'd flip out, and tell me its all my fault...

E.

As those of you that have been following me know-- my H is leaving to start and out of town job for the next ~2 months this coming Sunday. He's home on weekends but gone M-F. He traveled a lot for work prior to my A (in the range of 98% of the time!)-- but has since gotten a new job where it is in his contract that he will only travel 25% of the year.

So, this is the first time since I came home that he's going to have to go out of town.

The first time when he went out of town (for 2 years he worked on clients out of town, and I have suspicions he may have had an affair while out of town, but I have no proof, no way of finding out now (2-3 years later...) and he adamantly denies it. I'm not sure at this point I want to know anyways...)-- he would leave Sunday night and I wouldn't hear from him or see him again until Friday night. He would never call- if I called he didn't answer and didn't call back. That and some pretty overall poor communication skills were the beginning of our demise...

So... this time around? H started cooking last night, after dinner (he likes to cook, as do I, but when he was out of town all the time, I just ate stuff out of a box or picked up dinner on the way home because I don't like cooking/eating alone. Its lonely). I ask why he's cooking...

Get ready...

He's making me little meals that I can just warm up from the fridge for next week while he's out of town. (that sound was my jaw hitting the floor).

Then, today, he informs me that he's going home from work early, so that he can make us a nice steak dinner "and whatnot". I said (really, just joking around...) "and whatnot?" what's "and whatnot???" and he said "you'll see..." in that playful manner... whoa?? Now the dinner itself is not that "special"-- he loves to cook and frequently makes dinner (although usually it is both of us making dinner- we make different dishes).

So, I'm not sure what he has planned... I don't want to get my hopes up or anything. The "we'll see" could have just been entirely innocent and I'm just reading into it with high hopes of something...

Progress?? I'm still nervous for next week. We'll see how it goes...

E.

Do me a favor. Start a journal. Tonight. Just a paragraph or two, about how you felt that day.

Keep it up while he's gone, then for another week or two after he gets back.

Then go back and see if you see the difference between the days he's gone and home.

In my case, I literally hope for trips for H to take so I can have some time 'off' where I don't have to worry about displeasing him or being tense all night.

I think you're going to see a difference in your attitude after being alone a few days. That feeling, that peace? That's how you're supposed to feel all the time. Work for it.

Will do. I've already mentioned that I'm actually somewhat looking forward to him leaving because Monday thru Friday is guaranteed PEACE. He's not home, and he's too busy when he's out of town (whether or not that's strictly with work is up for debate...) to bother with me. So its all about me.

Its a catch 22 though-- after awhile it gets lonely. I don't mind him going away here and there, but when he traveled 98% of the weeks-- too much (hence the issues).

Right now, I'm looking forward to the break. To peace. I'm already anticipating peace, and I'm not even there yet

The journal is a good idea tho- helps me keep track of things.

E.

OK, well-- he's gone, for the week. He comes back Friday, and I leave for my stupid conference Saturday morning, so we'll only have about 12 hours together before I have to leave... then when I get back from my conference, he'll still be gone until the following Friday. So pretty much we'll see each other for about 12 hours in the next 2 weeks.

Last night, I was OK. I kept myself busy. Honestly, I didn't sleep well at home alone... and it doesn't help that my dog is more protective when he's not home and kept pacing around the house all night long (and scared the living crap out of me by barking at about 2 am!-- she hardly ever barks, so when she barks, I pay attention...).

He didn't do anything "special" this weekend. I got a card and hid it in his bag that he was taking with him while he was in the shower. He did call last night when he got in, but I was already asleep (it was midnight) so we only talked for a few moments before we got off the phone.

I have such mixed feelings. Part of me is glad that it is going to be peaceful, and part of me misses him a lot. And part of me is really hurt because I never feel like he "misses" me or home as much as I miss him. I guess it goes with the lack of affection thing.

I guess what I'm wondering now is- how long does a FWS try to "save" the M before giving up? Maybe I'll start another thread for this question.... I hate it that you can't change thread titles anymore...

I guess I understand completely why a BS would want to "see" that the FWS is really serious, committed and is going to hold to NC and do what they need to do, yadda yadda yadda...

But, its been a year. And he's still saying the ol' "I don't know what I want-- I don't know if I want to stay married" deal. But he hasn't left either.

Its like he wants to reap the benefits-- without doing the work. He'll stay, as long as he does nothing, and I do everything. But he's got a foot out the door ready to bolt as soon as he's expected to step up and do something.

I am seriously considering taking him out somewhere, for a nice evening... and writing a letter to him explaining my feelings, and reading it to him asking him to "re-marry" me-- a proposal of sorts... a intro to plan B? See what his reaction is? Tell him that I am so drained, that I can't do this anymore, that I want a loving, stable marriage... that I need him and his affection, etc.... making it a romantic thing, you know?

What does anyone think about that? And then if he's still wishy-washy there (which I suspect he would be...), then go "true" plan B?

How long does a BS get before they have to decide whether or not they want to stay in the M? Isn't a year enough time-- to assess the FWS changes, whether or not you want to stay? Honestly, this inbetween crap is worse than him just leaving in the first place...

This is really rough on me...

E.

OK, I know there's people reading this 'cause the count number keeps going up...

No takers? Am I that hopeless?

E.

lol, sorry, I was waiting to let someone else chime in!

My opinion is that he indeed does want to reap the benefits. But my opinion is colored by my dad; because of him, I have a bitter taste in my mouth. He left my mom (affairs) because she worked full time and wasn't the dutiful housewife. Then he married the wicked witch of the west, who ruined nearly everyone's lives, and he stuck with her through everything, even through losing contact with his only granddaughter (my D17) because of his wife. On his deathbed, he apologized for all the crap she'd put us through, but said, basically, he stayed with her because 'she took care of me.'

That's it. All he wanted. So I have a bad view of why men do what they do sometimes. I really do think that some men really want nothing more than a replacement for their moms.

I think that's fine as long as your "feelings" include stipulations about your boundaries. Otherwise, what good would a love letter do to someone who believes he can "punish" you indefinitely?

Hmm... you're right, PM. I guess part of it is getting him to re-commit to the M in the first place. Right now, he's not committed.... he's still got one foot out the door, still in his ILYBINILWY phase, and telling me he's not sure if he wants the M. He even busted out on me a few nights ago that our M has never been good and that even before he married me he had reservations (now that is the first time that I've ever heard that one! In fact, I've heard nothing but the opposite until then!). Really, a lot of the stuff he says to me and his attitude towards our R is much like that of a WS. I've snooped and snooped and snooped, but found nothing. The only other thing I can think of is putting a keylogger on the computer... but H is an IT auditor by trade, and thus knows FAR FAR more about computers than me, and I'm afraid he'd catch on. His JOB is to find things like keyloggers in the workplace and to make sure everything in the IT systems at companies is on the up-and-up, for pete's sake! I don't have access to his credit card records, email, myspace, or anything like that (although he has access to all of mine for transparency purposes...). Since I caught him in his last EA via his cell phone records, I think he's smart enough to not do that again... yeah, I'm not sure on that one. He really talks like the standard WS anymore, so much so that I've considered an A again... (at which point, he'd be out on his butt, pronto...), but I can't find any evidence of it at all...

So, what I'm looking for is a commitment to work on the M, and MC, where he actually takes the MC suggestions (the last time we went, he sat there arms crossed and literally REFUSED every suggestion the MC made. He said he didn't know whether or not he wanted the M, therefore he wasn't doing anything for the M until he figured it out. This was last October). He claims he's "trying" but you see what "trying" translates to-- just look at my threads. "Trying" translates to-- he'll be a good H when it is convenient for him, and when it doesn't benefit him, he'll check out and throw the A in my face.

That's what I was trying to accomplish with writing/reading him the letter. And for clarification, I was thinking of reading it aloud to him... moreso just so I could have my thoughts on paper (and he could have the paper, if he wanted) because I tend to get flustered when I talk about overly emotional things and forget things...

E.

Probably shouldn't say this, but...IMO you should be re-evaluating your position. Consider what YOU need to be happy in life. And remember that if you had never met him, being happy wouldn't include him. Get what you need out of life before you cave in to make sure he's getting what HE needs. Then see where he stands.

OK, so more questions on communication type issues.

Dealing with his passive-aggressive behavior has been an issue of mine. His mother is an E-X-T-R-E-M-E-L-Y passive aggressive communicator and very manipulative, probably the worse I've ever met in my life, so I think that's where he's "picked it up" from. She's the queen of saying one thing (that she doesn't mean) and doing another. I've tried ignoring his behavior, I've tried pointing it out and stating how it hurts me... to no avail. I'd like some advice on how to handle stuff like this. I know that schoolbus is a great advisor for communication type issues (as is catperson)-- or anyone else that has 2 cents to chime in I'd love to hear your opinion on how to deal with this!

So this happened last night-- I was talking with H on the phone. One of his best single guy friends is now dating one of my single girlfriends (my best friend, and old college roommate). They are in the fledgling stage of their relationship, and are all smitten with each other-- its cute. I talked to my best friend on the phone last night, and he had talked to his friend... and was texting H about how cute they were together. I guess his friend texted him about how he "couldn't keep up with her" in terms of SF (joking around-- they are still in the stage where they can't get enough of each other...). H forwarded me the text, and then made the comment that it was much like how "I couldn't keep up with him" (in the past, he always had a higher SF need than I did..) I replied back to him with just "haha". Then, he texts me "although that's not true recently, I just haven't been feeling it".

Grrr.

Its not so much that that might be "true" that bothers me. It is that he CONSTANTLY will take a perfectly good conversation, that has NOTHING to do with the A, and infuse a little guilt dig in there. Just like the one above-- that's what that is. A "dig" at me that he has little sex drive for me anymore (he knows that that really hurts me). And I don't think a day goes by where he doesn't get one in, somewhere. Sometimes they seem like they really come from left field.

Most of the time I ignore them and just pretend he didn't say it. But honestly, they drive me insane, and they really hurt. Its like a constant reminder from him that I'm supposed to feel guilty and that he's not committed and that I am a terrible person and that this isn't in the past-- its still stewing, right now, and becoming more and more rotten by the day.

Its not that I wouldn't sit down and have a conversation with him about these things, its not that I avoid them. Its just I think that is a TOTALLY inappropriate way to bring it up and I refuse to "take the bait" anymore. If I respond to those comments, usually it turns into a fight because even if I responded with something along the lines of "those comments really hurt me" his reply would be something along the lines of "well its true! Do you want me to lie? You said you wanted me to share my feelings, so I am" (OK, but in some passive aggressive manner that is totally destructive is NOT what I meant by "sharing his feelings" and I feel like he's twisting that and using it against me to be able to just cut me down and be insensitive. There's a difference between "sharing your feelings" and acting like yours are the only ones that matter and tearing other people's down at the expense of your own!)

So, how do I reply to things like that? I need to take a more "aggressive" stance on them. Ignoring them is NOT working-- I still get AT LEAST one comment like that a day-- usually totally out of left field (and not always about SF). They are frustrating and counterproductive, and quite frankly I want to strangle him every time he busts out with one. I don't do that crap to him, but I have plenty of stuff that I could say and do to him too that are along the same lines-- he cheated too, which he frequently forgets...

E.

I think if I were you, I'd keep a pocket notebook in my pocket at all times. Every time he gives you a dig, whip out the notebook and jot down what was said. Eventually he's going to ask you what you're doing. You will calmly tell him that you are keeping track of y'all's conversations so that you can look back on it later with a clear head to see how things are going.

If that's not enough of a hint, the next time he brings it up (he will), say you're going to use it to see what the cumulative effect of his DJs are to you.

But isn't this a passive-aggressive answer to a problem of him being passive-aggressive? I like the idea of keeping a journal with his comments, but I think whipping it out in front of him to take notes crosses into passive-aggressive. It is doing something to illicit a particular response from him (manipulative)-- instead of being straightforward about it.

The problem is, being straightforward about it hasn't really worked thus far, unless somehow I am miscommunicating with him.

I guess I am focusing on mostly ACTING and not REACTING. I think BOTH H and I have very very very "reactive" personalities... we get fired up and "react" (I'm Italian, what can I say... its in my genes...)-- based on what we perceive the other person is doing to us. We don't act based on our own standards-- or we didn't. OK, he doesn't, I didn't, and I'm working on making my own standards and boundaries. I won't be passive-aggressive to get what I want out of someone or to manipulate them-- I've seen how much that drives wedges between people and is ineffective (case in point, see my M). I also won't tolerate it, but it seems that "ignoring" it is no longer an effective "consequence" for crossing my "boundary" for no passive-aggressive comments.

I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place...

E.

E.,

I've had quite a busy few days. Going back to your idea of the romantic dinner and asking him to remarry you - I hate to say it, but I think you have to look at the possible outcomes of that. If it strikes a chord and he responds in favor of it, great. But could just be emotional response that will fade the next day. The most likely result is that he will glumly respond with the same non-commitment jargon or worse. How will either of those make you feel? Given the setting you plan, it is a setup for an emotional undignified exit.

I think instead of the romantic dinner and all, the basic fundamental plan of writing a letter and reading it to him is a good one. If you could do it unscripted, I think it would be more effective, but any hurtful response could throw you off-track. One thing you can do is to write out what you want to say and go over it a few times. Then convert what you have to say into bullet points and have the bullets with you to keep you on track. It is like doing it unscripted, but with a lifeline.

This is something you have to do - a total layout of how you feel and where things stand and what you will or will not tolerate any more. Take the emotional element out. He is a man and you are addressing his intellect. I would sit him down when both of you get back from your trips and tell him you are glad you had time to contemplate things while apart and you have several things to say to him. Ask him if he will agree to hear you out for all the things you have to say. The goal is a commitment from him to go forward from that point with both of your A's in the past and never to be thrown in each others face again. And a commitment to treat each other respectfully without manipulation and to each give the relationship a full attempt at rebuilding it - noting that a year of 'I don't know what I want' is long enough.

If he will not commit to these things, then whip out your Plan B letter, hand it to him and walk away. Not being in a 'romantic dinner' setting will allow you to do this with dignity and less drama.

The time for fretting and fuming and hand-wringing is long past. It is time for firm clear action. I am beginning to see that it will be extremely difficult for you to overcome the self-issues you have been describing while being continually beaten down and manipulated by him. These things are seated deeper in you than I thought and will take months to begin to address. You don't have months.

Your tendency is to wait, wait, wait and then explode. This must be done before you hit that point. Reaching that point will be damaging to you immediately with ramifications for future relationship(s) in the future. My recommendations are for you to protect yourself from that. No matter the outcome, this path will make you stronger. To wait until you explode is a path to making you weaker.

Hmmm...I thought I answered you. I know I wrote something! Wonder where it ended up...

Anyway, I'm not saying to do it in a PA way, vindictive, etc. I'm saying do it as though you're doing research. You want to make sure you're not going crazy and imaging it's worse than it really is. If he asks, explain that. That you want to be sure you're not laying more of the issue on him than is due. So you're keeping a record, kind of like writing down your food intake for a week to see what you're really eating.

That is not PA, IMO. It's helping your marriage. It's being analytical to ensure you are approaching your relationship with all the facts. And if he refuses to accept that he is doing something that you KNOW he's doing - something that's hurting y'all's chance for a good marriage, this is your way to show him, cumulatively, that he has indeed been doing what you're telling him hurts you. Once you show him, you can stop doing it, but some people just have to have the evidence right in front of their face before they acknowledge the problem.

You can say to him, "You're more than welcome to write down my issues, too, as I do them, so that I can learn about what I need to stop to keep from LBing you. I want to stop LBing, so please do point things out. Just like I'm doing with this. It's hurting our marriage, I need it to be gone, so I'm showing you your actions. What can we do about it?"

Thank you very much SBS, PM, and catperson, and everything you said is absolutely correct.

I think you are right about my dinner idea-- if he agrees, it is going to be because it is a spur of the moment thing, and once the "hard work" starts the next day, he's going to poop out again on me and I'm going to be even more devastated. And I think that's more likely than it actually "working" the way I want it to.

I do like your idea of sitting down with him and telling him these things, writing it all out and "practicing" it. I would like to have a paper "lifeline" because once he starts pushing buttons I get flustered. And, I'll have the plan B letter then too, and if he doesn't agree, the letter he gets and he gets tossed to the curb. I am in firm stance that the one that is still committed to the M gets the marital home-- therefore, he's leaving. Unless he absolutely refuses (and legally I can't really "make" him)-- at which point, I'll leave if he really refuses. I don't think that he'll refuse though, I think he'll go stay at a friends. He has plenty of guy buddies that still live alone that he could go stay with.

So, now I have to decide on the "timing" of this. Here's what I'm thinking:

1. We have a family vacation planned in 2 weeks at the beach (driving distance beach). We are going on a Monday with family, but the Friday beforehand H and I are leaving-- he planned some mini-trip for us for a few days before we meet them at the beach. So, I think it would definitely be prudent to wait until after the vacay to do this.

2. A week after we get back from vacay is our 8 year dating anniversary (which, yes, we still "celebrate"- we usually just go out for a nice dinner or something).

3. 2 weeks after that is his birthday, and I am trying to get together a surprise party with his family (his family lives across the country, so getting them to come back for a party would be a nice surprise).

-- The point of this is that I was thinking that I should strenghten MYSELF, and my "non-doormat" abilities... and then do the above plan right after his birthday if he's still fence sitting?

Until then, I will use my techniques from here-- and solidify my plan A before I do above.

What do we think-- or should I cut his ties before then? I was just thinking that the next month or so presents a lot of really good opportunities to really nail home plan A before I go plan B. But at the same time, I need to work in more instances of sticking up for myself and getting rid of my guilt.

Oh-- and last night, he had a little melt down again. I got up this morning and he had left me messages on instant messenger about how this week had been "so rough" on him-- and he said that he still thought that I went to play ultimate frisbee with OM on Sunday (I used to play frisbee every Sunday evening with OM-- frisbee was really how OM and I became close friends-- but I haven't played at all in well over a year).

I just said that things were rough on me too, but that we would make it together, and then told him that I appreciated him calling more often while he was out of town, etc. And then said that I was not at frisbee Sunday evening, that I went to visit my parents (which I had already told him)-- and that he could call and ask if he would like (but he won't).

I just don't know how to deal with him when he gets in these "doom and gloom" moods. He put up an away message while he was sleeping that said "Stay the course and of course, endure". Sigh. His attitude is 3/4 of the problem, he just doesn't see it.

Well, the fence sitting time is over. I think unless he does something really bad or destructive-- I'll take the next month as a "super plan A" on steroids time-- and time to re build myself and practice respecting myself-- and then go plan B shortly after his birthday (September 8th).

What do we think?

E.

Make sure that beforehand he agrees to hear you out and does not interrupt and that afterward you will give him the same courtesy.


Right here is the right time. You finalize your Plan A while there are no distractions, you enjoy yourselves, etc. Then when you get back give it a day or two to settle back and then do it.

The anniversary is too emotional a time and you risk not being able to think clearly. Around his birthday he may develop a selfish streak as we all focus on ourselves around our birthdays.




Absolutely.




Great Job!


Just what you did. Answer calmly, move on and don't accept any more guilt. Your Guilt Bill is now officially 'Paid in Full'. Plus, it is simple manipulation. My favorite counter manipulation is to quickly change the subject. If I'm called on it, I simply say I don't want to dwell on 'x' and continue to talk about the new subject. Always have a subject in your hip pocket to change to.

I hope you are enjoying your peace. Don't allow yourself to get too lonely and dwell on feeling needy. That is a bad vein to fall into.