When I arrived on MB I was not still engaged in an A. The A had ended and my H and I had started recovery. I'd been looking all over the web for somewhere where I could learn how to do that. I'd looked at a "wayward" site and nearly threw up. The things I saw there were definitely not for me. A lot of other sites were very definitely just for BS's. MB addressed the WS and the BS. I read the articles and was amazed there was a plan, there was a plan for WS's as well as BS's.

With great trepidation I posted my first post. I didn't think I was very foggy but I was. I was called on my fogginess but, you know something, no one yelled at me, no one was rude or abusive. I was given tools, I was asked to look at myself. Sometimes I said particularly foggy and stupid things. I was taken to task, I was asked to LOOK at what I was saying and why I was saying it.

I know that I was a receptive WS. I came to MB for the purpose of recovery, not to justify my A. It's a funny thing though, a foggy wayward doesn't even know they're justifying. They think they're telling it like it is.

I know that the MO here is sometimes to abuse an active affairee. I'm not sure whether it's meant to wake them up or make them see the error of their ways. To me, that approach always turns into a shouting and slanging match.

If you've ever seen JL posting to waywards you will see what can be achieved with firmness which isn't abusive.

No one is asking anyone to mollycoddle or accept what an active wayward says but there is definitely more than one way to skin a cat.

I've been no angel here, but I think anyone who is still in an affair should either be relegated to their own forum, or banned altogether.

This isn't an affair-intervention site, after all.

Active affairees very seldom turn up here. Most WS's who do turn up are on the first steps to recovery. I often wonder why people who are still in an affair do come here and tend to give them benefit of the doubt that something is happening in themselves to make them seek out a marriage building site. The first inklings that what they are doing is wrong, if you like.

Of course, there are always the troublemakers and trolls. It's sometimes difficult to sort them out from genuine people but, really, I think troll behaviour is so close to WS behaviour I'd rather let them speak first and make a call later on.

Who knows. One active affairee may become a recovering spouse.

I see what you mean but I think this DEFINITELY IS AN AFFAIR-INTERVENTION SITE.

This is the first place that I came to begin AFFAIR-INTERVENTION..A WAR AGAINST MY HUSBAND'S AFFAIR that took LOADS OF INTERVENTION PLANS gained from this site.

I wouldn't agree with a BAN AGAINST those ACTIVE in an AFFAIR.

That person may be able to get HELP here.

We can direct that person to the HARLEYS.

My H certainly was ACTIVE in his AFFAIR when he received his FIRST INTERVENTION from STEVE HARLEY.

That one SESSION didn't bring an END to the AFFAIR but it certainly was CRUCIAL INTERVENTION that BEGAN the process.

Maybe someone HERE could say just the THING to START that PROCESS for someone...

In fact, I'm sure that has happened....

I'm sure it's happened, 2. I remember posting 2 active waywards. I felt I needed 2, as it was an oppor2nity for me 2 see, by proxy, in2 my W's at the time wayward mind. That was for my perspective, and 2 give me a leg up in2 finding ways 2 approach my W that wouldn't drive her deeper underground.

It used 2 work, but I think that many of the most active "old-timers" here are as stuck, or stucker even, than early post-d day BSs trying 2 find their emotional footing after having their world shattered.

2 me, now 6.5 years past d-day and finally in2 a real marital recovery (my W's VLTA was almost 2wice as long as it's taken 2 get here), I find it ludicrous 2 compare my W's infidelity 2 rape or the death of a child. After d-day, maybe rape, if I were a woman and could possibly have a clue what that felt like, but I've seen loved-ones die, and no way could it have been worse than if one of my kids had died. And now that I'm not suffering like I was after d-day, the whole pain-comparison thing isn't just silly, it's dwelling on the past in such an unhealthy manner as 2 prevent the dweller from learning the real personal-growth-inducing lessons brought on by the tribulation.

-ol' 2long

I agree. But that may be because I'm a BS.

I don't think the FWS's here who seem to support what I call 'coddling' will ever understand the pain of the BS and our reactions to an active wayward.

Just like I can't understand their feelings of guilt.

Maybe waywards should only post to waywards and betrayed to betrayed?

t/j that I'm hoping KiwiJ won't mind...

2long, I used to post with you on Spacecase's thread (I was YetAgain, or YA).

That is marvelous 2long, just marvelous!! I've read your stuff on an off during the past 6.5 years. I can't tell you how happy I am for you and your wife!

t/j over....thank you KiwiJ.

Hi LB, I mean YA!

Now is so different from all the priors. My W isn't even "quite there" yet, but making pretty big leaps pretty often regardless.

We didn't "do it" the MB way, either. We're making it ours.

-ol' 2long

Having gone through the deaths of several family members I loved more than I can say, my parents included, and a brutal attack by a stalker, I tend to agree with you. The other loss you mention I cannot even contemplate...

But I know, that like love, pain is impossible to measure. Especially another person's pain.

What you say about dwelling on the past is a topic that is near and dear to my heart. As it is the one thing that has allowed me to survive, even more than survive. I refuse to live in the past. I refuse to conjur it up, except here on MB when relaying what makes me relate to a certain post. Nothing is more detrimental to a good life than dwelling on past hurts/betrayals. That is why I abhore the title BS in recovered individuals, marriages. I don't like title's for that reason and refuse to label myself in my sig line. It's obscene in my opinion to label yourself as something that happened to you years prior. Plus how can your WS be a F when you are not a F BS? I don't get that, but don't feel like arguing the point. It seems like such an obvious embalance. An equation that doesn't add up. FWS + BS = what? Am I making sense here?

There comes a time when the past must lose all significance, or the present and even the future are an absolute waste of time.

On WSs' thread - I try like the devil to avoid them as they provoke such anger in me, but alas every once in awhile I slip and post. But for me it is less one of triggers and more of personality conflicts. That and I just can't stand a liar. LOL

It seems to me that you should just ignore the threads that tick you off and post on the threads that you feel you may have some insight.

Folks,

This IS AN AFFAIR INTERVENTION FORUM. If ever there was a place for an active WS to come and see what they are doing to their spouse, this is the place. BUT, more importantly as Mimi pointed out, it is a place YOU AS A BS would want your WS to come.

Why? Because the WS just might see enough through the fog to begin to understand what they are doing. If you yell at them, they pull their head back into the fog. If you talk with them, show them things they have not considered, and gradually give them time (yes the time Harley mentions for affairs to end), they often come around.

Here is something else everyone seems to forget. A WS does not come here UNTIL and UNLESS they deep down want to end this affair, but are struggling with "feelings" for the OP. No one comes to marriage builders unless deep down they WANT to have a better marriage.

I know the BS' on this site seem to think it is THEIR site, but it is not. In fact, if you read Harley's articles this is a site about saving marriages and that takes BOTH parties to do it.

I view handling WS' like fishing. It takes patience, a deft touch, the right lure, and knowing when to set the hook. We don't hook all that nibble, but the goal should be to do that. For if you can bring a WS around, you have a good chance of saving the BS a lot of heartache and money, with a divorce. You also have a chance to save some children a lot of pain.

I agree the WS should be called on their "fog" talk. I disagree with berating them because they become defensive and leave, but worse they just defend. You don't want that.

Personally, I think the goal should be to get as many WS' here as possible, and then do our best to offer them a path HOME, so that the BS's and their children (if there are any) are spared more pain.

Finally, the active WS on this site do give the BS a glimpse into the possible thinking and illogic of their spouse. Knowledge is a powerful tool, get it where you can.

I will close by mentioning. I grew up in the military, I was trained to be in the military, I was in the military, and I have brought grown men to tears with my ability to tear at their minds. It was the old "break them down and then build them up". It worked/works. HOWEVER, there was one huge difference between that situation and this one, or even a situation if one were a policeman.

The people that come here can leave at will. In those other situations they cannot, thus berating, and breaking them down can be accomplished and when accompanied by a plan to rebuild them it works. If you break them here and they leave, you cannot rebuild them and we are after all on a rebuilding site.

If any of you knew me in person, you would know that my approach and behavior on this board is not my NATURAL response to certain situations. But, I would like to think it is more effective than my natural response, because after all my only purpose here is to learn and help.

I won't tell anyone else how to do it, but I will tell you I thought long and hard about how and why I do it the way I do and I decided that rather than me feeling good, I would rather be of help especially to the BS and their family. That to me means getting the WS to listen, learn, and change their perspective. Most don't/won't do it from a position of defense.

Just thoughts. But I will say again this is not a site just for BS'. Read what Harley has written, but more importantly consider what would be best for the BS of the WS. You need them here to make any changes.

God Bless,

JL

But, you can only speak for yourself, not others. Dr. Harley does not think the comparison is "ludicrous" nor do many other people who HAVE buried a child or who have endured RAPE. Dr. Harley makes this observation after 35 years of clinical experience, an experience you don't have.

For me, I would say that it IS worse than the death of a child, and I actually had to bury my beloved 18 year son, Bryan Joseph, on his 19th birthday on October 11, 1999. You can't tell me it is "ludicrous" to make such a comparison. And you can't tell the numerous patients of Dr. Harley the same thing. You can only speak for your own EXPERIENCE, 2Long. Not mine, not anyone elses.

No, you cannot measure or compare another person's pain, or love, Mel.

My God, whenever I read your story, the losses you have had, I feel like crying.

Your strength is just so admirable. I work with a lady who lost her only daughter, and when I tell her I can't believe how she has survived this, she tells me that we have no idea our own strength until we go through something like this.

My good friend Mel. (((((Mell)))))

Frankly, I have not seen this "coddling" of waywards that some refer to, and believe me, I would notice. I am the last person who would coddle a WS. But that does not mean that folks should attack and call names, that helps no one.

thank you, weaver. you have been through so much yourself. {{{{{{{{{{weaver}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

That's unfair and condescending




And others 'fish' differently than you. That does not make your methods better or right.





[/quote]

I referred to it on another thread and it was from the perspective from a long time ago in the earlier days after the betrayal.

That's how I remember you from that same time period.

I agree. I like how JustLearning explains it. Maybe his post would be useful on a thread of its own?

iam, I think he meant some, not all.

I agree with him.

And your success rate for getting through to WS's is...?

JL has pointed more people (BS and WS) in the right direction than I can count.

I, and many, many others on this board owe JL more than I could ever put into words.

Never!!! LOL. You're kidding me.

You are another one I owe a huge debt of gratitude to.

kiwij and melodey

I have felt for awhile that their has been a shift here on MB.
Where WS's first post here and they are slammed for having or still being in an affair.

When I logged on tonight and before read this thread I read a first post by a WW. I told the first and only poster to this WW's thread that she did not hit the WW with a 2x4 but a log.

As justlearning said "I view handling WS' like fishing. It takes patience, a deft touch, the right lure, and knowing when to set the hook. We don't hook all that nibble, but the goal should be to do that. For if you can bring a WS around, you have a good chance of saving the BS a lot of heartache and money, with a divorce"

I told that poster how was the BH going to be helped if she scared away this new WW?