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Originally Posted by rprynne
I marvel at these threads. Why do we put so much responsiblity on the those that respond as opposed to those that ask? There is no doubt in my mind that those that truly want help will find it here regardless of the stlye or technique used. The ones that "run off" weren't looking for help.

ABSOLUTELY Rprynne!

Mrs. W


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HU,

Most of the folks here have said it already, twice, but...

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I can say I am applying MB principles to save my marriage, which is the point right?

Honest, rather than posting here right now, why don't you read the free material on infidelity here on the site with a truly open mind.

You see, you can't really apply MB principles to save your marriage if you haven't taken the important step of being honest with your wife by telling her of your affair.

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Mrs. W:

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Show me a wayward that is complaining of being "run off" the MB forums, and I will show you someone that is choosing to remain fogbound and has no genuine desire to be helped and change...

This is basic truth. Yet at the same time, please don't ignore the basic (conventional wisdom) differences between females and males and that is:

When confronted by adversity, females first try to change themselves to cope. They internalize.

When confronted by adversity, males try to change their environment to cope. They externalize.

As the Marines might say, women need 2X4 to HELP them change themselves and males need 2X4 to MAKE them change.

Larry


Last edited by _Larry_; 07/24/08 11:15 AM. Reason: spelling
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I'll give that some thought Larry, and discuss it with Mr. W...interesting...

Thanks!

Mrs. W


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Hu,

I have held it in enough. YOU are a WS and YOU are hurting your BW and children. If you are applying the MB ways at home, isnt one way to tell your spouse of the A???

dear dear you arent applying them at home if you cant be honest with her. please cry me a river.

I have done nothing but learn from people on here. And I was out of the fog when I arrived.

Mr G great post btw.



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You will never know just how legitimate your hypothesis is, since the wayward spouses who are chased off these pages are either “wasted efforts” or “lost opportunities” but you don’t know which. I view them all as “new opportunities” when they first arrive no matter how fogged out they are, knowing in advance that many of them have no desire to be enlightened by the likes of me and I am very much OK with that. No one hits a homerun every time they step to the plate.
Ahhhh, but actually you will never know yours either...

Touché Mrs. Wondering, Touché.

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HOWEVER...

I can speak from the experience of once being a foggy wayward that came here, posted my foggy ideas and got 2x4ed...Which made me THINK and GET ANGRY...Which caused me to ENGAGE and ARGUE...And one by one my "foggy points" were consistently refuted, so I learned...I got humble...I got helped...If I hadn't truly wanted help, then I wouldn't have stayed, and you better believe I would have blamed that choice on others...that is the nature of the wayward beast after all...Hey, I even got called a TROLL, and still I persisted...Those that want help will choose to get it...

You came here with a measure of resolve and helped to save your marriage.

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Show me a wayward that is complaining of being "run off" the MB forums, and I will show you someone that is choosing to remain fogbound and has no genuine desire to be helped and change...

Perhaps you were such a person at one time. Alas, I don’t know the details of Mr. Wondering and your travels. Suffice to say, you are both an excellent example of a marriage saved. I wish you nothing but the best.

Mr. G


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Originally Posted by rprynne
I marvel at these threads. Why do we put so much responsiblity on the those that respond as opposed to those that ask? There is no doubt in my mind that those that truly want help will find it here regardless of the stlye or technique used. The ones that "run off" weren't looking for help.


AMEN TO THAT ONE..... laugh


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Suffice to say, you are both an excellent example of a marriage saved. I wish you nothing but the best.

Mr. G

Thanks much Mr. G! The sentiment is wholeheartedly returned! smile

Mrs. W


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Originally Posted by MrsWondering
I'll give that some thought Larry, and discuss it with Mr. W...interesting...

Thanks!

Mrs. W

You are welcome. And while we are on the subject, it seems to me that you stood by Mr. W. (knowing or not) when he was exercising his immaturity by catting around before you got married and thus helped him become an adult. He did the same when you came out of the chrysalis. There is equity there.

Congratulations to you both.

Larry

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Josie:

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All I need to know about something that doesn't work is that it doesn't work.

I used 2 think this, 2 (and I apologize if that sounds patronizing, it's not meant 2). Ironically, I'm dialed in 2 a telecon about mistakes and failures, and what we can learn from them.

In my business, if we don't understand what caused a multi-hundred million dollar vehicle 2 crash, we run the very real risk of having another one do the same. One of these didn't even tell us what was going wrong, and we still haven't found the wreckage. We got "lucky" in some regards, that its successor was so successful, though the builders went 2 great lengths 2 make sure that any even2ality was considered in testing.

When airliners blow up and crash in the ocean, failure analysts pick up the pieces and try 2 determine the cause.

Similarly, BSs need 2 do some Marriage Failure Analysis 2 determine what was wrong with their marriage that led the WS 2 make the decision 2 cheat rather than work with their spouse on the problem.

I simply found that, although I learned a lot from my BS friends here about how 2 apply MB or other marriage recovery methods, I didn't learn diddly-squat about what my W was thinking or why she was behaving the way she did in sufficient detail from other BSs 2 make a whole lot of headway with her.


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If I want to change my life I need to understand what people who have successful lives do to become successful. Not how unsuccessful people get that way.

Certainly, I agree. Followed by:

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But had I been married to someone I loved and who was once a good person, than I suppose I would have had to understood in order to want to try and rebuild with them. You would have to in order to have faith that whatever it was could be undone.

My W has always been a good person. She just made a selfish choice and embraced bad behaviors. Now she's abandoning those bad behaviors and we're finding the love we used 2 enjoy. But I don't think I would have gotten here if I hadn't tried 2 understand 2 some degree what goes on in the fogbound wayward mind while we were still not communicating well after d-day.

Truth is, I just don't have a dog in this fight anymore. When I read Mr Goodstuff's post, I realized that I must have dropped the additional labels (beyond just W and just H) a long time ago without realizing it, perhaps.

And now it's time for the next phase of our journey.

-ol' 2long

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See there is success at MB!!! Take Mrs W and her beloved H. Look at Pepperband and some others.

MB and the people who post here didnt run me off, didnt run my H off. We stayed we took in what was dished out to us. We learned and followed and still learning. I can not say we are recovered all the way but we are well on our way to being recovered.

Did you know he came clean of his addiction because of MB? He originally came to MB I believe because of my A.*I was out of the fog already, but he came for more help with me* I came to MB because of orignially his addiction and then brough fourth his revenge A.

So HU, and the others that feel MB posters are harsh is because I feel that you do not like the truth being dished out to you. If you have been reading for a bit before posting then you should have known 2X4's were going to fly your way.



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I believe I've learned something new in this thread. I used to be concerned when WS's were "run off" by aggressively applied 2x4's. But thanks to Mr. G and Mrs. W's posts above, I can see that's not the case at all. It is clear that not all waywards are the same. Typing this out, I wonder why I didn't understand this before since it is so obvious. Some are remorseful right away. Some become remorseful when discovered or exposed (Plan A). Still others reach this point when the A desintigrates later and they realize the BS is doing fine without them (Plan B). And the rest either never do, or do so after it's too late.

So which ones come here? On their own, they probably fall under one of the first 2 categories and feel some guilt or shame of some sort. Or they were dragged here by their BS's and don't really feel any true remorse at all. I suspect Hu is in the 4th category above and I can't for the life of me figure out what he's doing here. In his first thread, I tried to speak rationally without emotion to him in an effort to help. Now I can see he doesn't want help. If the 2x4's run him off, it had nothing to do with the method of delivery.

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I realized that I must have dropped the additional labels (beyond just W and just H) a long time ago without realizing it, perhaps.

Bravo, 2-long, Bravo

I think that many believe that when they achieve recovery, I will be a monumental day as significant as any day ever was but brace yourself kids; recovery is a process not an event. It occurs in small doses. There are no marching bands to signify its arrival. When you finally walk across that finish line don’t be surprised if it eludes you altogether, there will be no trumpets blaring.

Mr. G


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I would respectfully ask you to remember that this thread was started by an FWW. Me.

I know I have no control over what is said here - I've been very interested in the replies - but I recall that (in the past anyway) the thread starter was allowed a little control over the content of their own thread.

I don't ask people to leave my threads - I'm always open to all discussion - I just ask you to remember that I, an FWW, started this thread.

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Tabby...from my personal experience on this board, there is a 5th type that shows up here on occasion. There have been some WS that have showed up here to rub their affairs in the face of people that are hurting. Some of them are in a supposed "marriage" that started off as an affair (and are now being cheated on)....others are just plain rude and venture over from the wayward sites just to cause trouble (hey, no one ever said way-wards are a character driven bunch).

Much can be learned for sure from the likes of TST and Mrs. W's on this board. And while I do not begin to understand the logic Mark mentioned earlier (about respecting a recovered adulterer MORE than someone that never strayed...he used a more broad stroke covering many moral issues) I do think these people are due our utmost respect for what they have brought to MB and their marriages (obviously post affair).

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Originally Posted by medc
Much can be learned for sure from the likes of TST and Mrs. W's on this board.

And why not from me? MEDC, I am an FWW, I'm so much an FWW I don't even think of myself as one. I'm just me.


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Originally Posted by KiwiJ
Originally Posted by medc
Much can be learned for sure from the likes of TST and Mrs. W's on this board.

And why not from me? MEDC, I am an FWW, I'm so much an FWW I don't even think of myself as one. I'm just me.

you ask a question I will give you an honest answer. I DO think people could learn from you...BUT, I would not hold you out as an example (although I did say the LIKES of TST and Mrs W...YOU excluded yourself). One reason I wouldn't cite you as an example would be that you had a second affair I think it was 4 years after the first. To me, that pushes things way too far. Another reason is that I believe...and I may be wrong about this...that you have been supportive of affair marriages being discussed on the active pages of this site. Quiet honestly, if that is the case, I find that to be incredibly insensitive and a bit rude coming from a FWS. If a BS on this site is negatively impacted by that, one would hope that a FWS would be sensitive enough to the damage such a spectacle could cause to new and even established BS. IMHO, a FWS should defer to the wishes of the BS in these cases. Just my opinion though.

other than that...despite you attempts for years here to tell others how to post...I really don't have any issues with you.

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longer marriage as opposed to brand new marriage
- history of many "good years"
-no previous adultery
-no other addictive behaviors
-no history of actual abuse
-no OC to deal with
-the affair lasted less than 3 years
-mental illness is not at play

Having said that, there have been recovered marriages that have one or more of the above list. My own for instance. My husband was a drinking alcoholic at D day. Kimmy's marriage has recovered 2 OC bumps in the road. etc.

Hmm, going way back to Pep's post on this thread. My M was not very likely to recover. Adultery on both sides, him twice and an OC from the 2nd OW. Add to that on the above list no history of "many good years" which if I remember correctly was one of the reasons JL didn't think my M had a shot.

We are now 1.5 years into R. I would say the past 6 months have been moving into true recovery. I just realized a few days ago that one of my chief complaints about my H in the past was his tendency to expend more energy on others than on our marriage/family. Not any longer. He has changed so much because he wanted to and because it was the right thing to do. I am slowly becoming more secure and give very little thought to the xOW any more.

Just shows that even the worst of situations CAN turn around with work and faith that God can change a willing heart. I am eternally greatful to many people on this forum and to Dr. Harley for his books/concepts and this forum.


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Originally Posted by KiwiJ
Originally Posted by medc
Much can be learned for sure from the likes of TST and Mrs. W's on this board.

And why not from me? MEDC, I am an FWW, I'm so much an FWW I don't even think of myself as one. I'm just me.

MEDC never said you were not helpful.

Unlike what you posted to me.

Feels uncomfortable in someone elses shoes, huh?

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Originally Posted by medc
you ask a question I will give you an honest answer. I DO think people could learn from you...BUT, I would not hold you out as an example (although I did say the LIKES of TST and Mrs W...YOU excluded yourself). One reason I wouldn't cite you as an example would be that you had a second affair I think it was 4 years after the first.

The second affair (yes, I call it that) was two years after total NC and that is now two years ago. My H and I have recovered totally from that. I would have thought it is a salutory lesson in NC being for life. Dr Harley says it must be for life and from what I've read he understands the dangers of breaking NC.

Originally Posted by medc
Another reason is that I believe...and I may be wrong about this...that you have been supportive of affair marriages being discussed on the active pages of this site.

You are wrong about that. I think affair marriages are doomed to failure and I don't know how people can ever admit without shame that is how they got together.

Originally Posted by medc
other than that...despite your attempts for years here to tell others how to post...I really don't have any issues with you.

I don't think I've ever told people how to post. Well, actually, I probably have, but only when it comes to dealing with WS's. As an FWW myself, I know what worked with me and I think it probably works with other FWWs. FWIW the post that really got through to me was from a BS who made me really look at myself. It was a very, very tough 2x4 but it was given out of true concern. That's what made it different from just telling me what a loser I was.

MEDC, I don't have an issue with you with either. I just wanted to clear up why you seem to be on my case.

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