I'm confused. What plans did I not share?

WBH...you rock.

EE...you rock, too...necessary balance, IMO.

{{{Cat}}}

When you read "normalize", what comes to mind?

LA

You plan to leave when your daughter moves out. Or did I not understand that correctly?

EE, Cat's DH is way over the line in LB behavior. He has a personality disorder, IMHO. For Cat to have any semblance of a life, she has to decide what is "reasonable" for a DH to ask for, and what is pathological based on his Personality disorder.

Also, there is NO WAY that Cat should tell Dh of her plan to leave. Abusive spouses whould not be forwarned of your intent to leave. I think she should live her life now the way she wants to live it...if DH comes around, good, if not, then she can leave.

Well, you're right and you're wrong, I guess is the only answer, if you really wanted me to be honest, even though it's embarrassing to admit here. I want to leave. I think about it a lot. I talk big about it here, pretend I will. But I'll likely never have the nerve to. I've told him before how miserable I am, I've been this.close to suicide before where we talked about how it's related to him, and he acknowledged it but defended himself. And when I don't talk about it, he acts as though it has never happened. So it's like an unspoken agreement from two dysfunctional people to pretend we're fine, as long as we get through from day to day. Hence the name of my thread.

Normalize? I guess keep the peace.

Cat,

You don't know who you'll be in a year, do you? I wouldn't be dwelling on the future in any respect...I would be right here and now, as you are on MB, in your posts...to me, you're learning to be very present in new ways.

JMO.

To keep peace...Cat...do you have peace to keep?

When you were out in the yard, weeding, and he was AOing at the universe, do you believe your presence normalized his choice of reactions? Where you stay present, not speaking, going along as if he's not doing what he's doing?

How reasonable and real is that? If each time he went off into the negativity you despise, instead you said, "Ouch!" On the phone on his way home...in the yard...did it happen at the game? Does it happen in public?

Normalizing is not acceptance, not keeping an illusionary peace...it is what we do that says "This is an acceptable dance we're doing."

There isn't one fix...and I as I said, WBH rocks...I do think your H has a true disorder...I'm just not sure most of us don't have one...so you, being here, being the one who is questing...I ask anew...what are your new steps?

I saw them for the vacation. I saw them in the taxes process. I've seen them in certain situations and not others...you know the roseberry bush you go round clearly for some and not for others...so I think you're in a process, of seeing where those same new steps are what you want and taking them.

Would that be close?

LA

So when you cannot find anything by Dr Harley that says to LB, you bring back the justification that her husband is LB'ing.

Like that makes it OK.

Frankly, it doesn't and just bring her down to the level you thin he is at.

Basically, as long as you justify her LB's, you are basically saying that his are OK behavior too.

You cannot argue that his are bad, but hers are justified. Either she is worthy the same scolding most think he should get, or he is worthy the same benefit of the doubt she seems to get.

I think the good Dr. would say LB's are never justified, never called for, and should never be part of any person's behavior, regardless what one's spouse does or doesn't do.

So there is NEVER a justification, nor should we EVER accept LB behavior. Nor should we promote it here, regardless what someone's spouse does or doesn't do.

LA, I hear you, but this is all I've ever known. It's what I was trained to do, the only way I was accepted was if I went along. I'm trying to believe I matter, that what I want can stand head to head with what he wants, but in the heat of the moment...I go along. I stop talking. I only say what I know (or think) won't tick him off. I try to get things done without having to ask him because to ask him means we have to establish that he's doing me a favor or that I'm bothering him.

I know it sounds stupid to you guys. I know I give the advice to others that I should be taking myself. But that nonconfrontation bug I've got is so very overpowering that I can live with just about anything to not have to confront. And of course, it does no good, I realize that, he's just as miserable as I am. But just like I can't complain to a store owner over a problem, I can't discuss my feelings with my husband because of his past reactions. I know I'm supposed to change that dynamic. I just don't know how to gain that courage.

And if my actions because of it all are LBs, well so be it. It's how I cope; it's the best I can do. The best I can say is that I'm actively watching for them now, when a year ago I didn't even know what that meant. So I try not to be hypocritical while still preserving myself from my fear; hard line to balance on.

And I have the best peace I can manage, which means making sure H is satisfied most of the time and getting what he wants. Like any abused spouse, I keep out of the limelight and see to him, and it seems to keep most of the anger at bay.

And you defend yourself. You have reasons for all the LB's you do too.

Look, once again, I understand he's tough to live with. I wouldn't blame you for wanting to go.

I think you SHOULD tell him you think about it, be honest with him.

And then, if things don't change when DD is gone, be true to what you said and move out.

That doesn't mean you have to divorce. But it doesn't mean you have to stay.

Just be 1000%, yet 1000% open and honest about it.

I'm not disagreeing with you, EE. I know he deserves to know I'm unhappy. Well, he DOES know, because this has been brought up half a dozen times in our marriage. And this time when I started taking ADs, I told him instead of hiding it so he wouldn't get mad - in his words, my taking ADs is a criticism of him. So this time, I let him know that I'm back on ADs. I let him know that I'm seeing an IC. I even got up the courage and told him that I would like it if he would go to counseling with me - he pretended that I hadn't said a word, did not acknowledge me.

But usually he chooses to pretend there is no problem, as long as I don't bring it up. When I bring it up, he defends himself. He never accepts blame, he never apologizes, he gets mad and finds a million things to blame on me. That's our pattern. I'm looking to find a way to let him know what I'm thinking that protects me the most from his wrath. That's all I can manage at this point. The ADs aren't doing much good, so I've got to keep looking.

Cat,

I am not judging you...I want to examine with you, as you have been doing, working on, staying aware of...I'm not saying you're doing it wrong...you are choosing, even from automatics (which are repetitive choices). You remain powerful, 'k?

What you said was that you are not hearing me. You said, "I hear you but". I'm gonna rephrase.

You hear me. Do you like what you hear, have a reaction to what you hear?

What won't tick him off clicks you off. You click off to not tick him off. You go to safe automatic, even though you're planning on leaving this guy, just not now, and automatic, you're realizing, was NEVER safe. It was self-betraying and degrading.

And you've got new stuff all over the place in you.

So...when you click off, give yourself permission to click back on. Doesn't mean you do different right then...means you're immediately aware of it. Give yourself true permission to consider..."Wait, is this what I want?" For you can remove your presence right then, after realization, after question...in answer to yourself.

You can smile and walk away, knowing what he's saying is about him, for him. Not you. You go in the house. You drink a glass of water, take a deep breath and go back out to him, or meet him at the door if he's followed you...and say, "I love you and I will not listen to your verbal abuse as I have been all these years. You're better than that."

Then you go back to the yard with him. If he continues, in volume or DJs, you remove again. Think about it, Cat...he wants to be with you 24/7...you're his "self" his extension, his reflection...and he's been trying to break the mirror for 32 years...stop being the mirror, 'k?

Calm and free...and if you don't dwell in what I'm saying right now, these scenarios instead of free away from him a year from now (all better since he's the problem), then you will repeat these automatics...and you're better than that, Cat. You know you are.

Dwell in the near present...use your marvelous imagination and wonderment to take routine situations into creative scenarios and practice ahead what you will and won't do...even if you begin your automatic, you'll recognize and stop. You'll change your dance.

Then you can look DD in the eye and say, "I'm amending." And smile. You couldn't make him anything...she has learned her own way to deal with toxic people (that's a plus, Cat)...keep that lesson expanding to include healthy, powerful and real, too.

I believe at any given moment you can put your hands on his cheeks, look into his eyes calmly, sincerely and say, "I love you. I want our marriage. I will not stay around for yelling or cursing."

On the car-ride home; "I feel used because I hear you as being very negative about your day, every day. Will you tell me something you love about your job right now?" Show appreciation if he does. I know you'll feel touched, connected and grateful if he chooses to do so. He may not. You can terminate the call by saying, "I look forward to listening to you some more when you do."

He's able...he's unwilling from deep and abiding fear...you can't be his cure...what you've trained yourself to do to control him truly doesn't, Cat. He's his own cure...know this and act from yours...you are your own cure, too.

Practice in your daydreaming time instead on "I'm thinking of telling you I feel manipulated when you don't like how things turn out; I see you as sulking, irritable and I feel punished. I wasn't going to say this because I believe I make you angry when I'm honest. I lie to you a lot to keep you from yelling and sulking."

Highest honesty is what breaks your chains, your training, changes your relationship and your marriage.

I think favors are acts of love, too, Cat. For those who live from fear, acting from love is terrifying...favors, as debts, aren't...yet this is the closest to actively meeting ENs they can come without having their knee-jerk fear choke them into not doing at all.

"I see you as fixing the edger as an act of love for me. MB calls it Domestic Service. I fight myself to see your act for what it is, and not for the way you did, when you did and how you did it. I understand you see your choice as doing me a favor."

Everything with humans bothers him...makes him uncomfortable, in every second of interaction in his life...and you're his lifeline. That's a pretty impressive role to have, isn't it, Cat? If you're going to buy into his "bothering him" then you're blocking out the love bank...if he has to meet an EN of yours, with a willing heart, a gung-ho and happy attitude, when you need it met...for a totally healthy person, is that reasonable?

What if you're the self-made antidote for him, the toxin? What if you do not allow yourself to feel bothered (speak instead of automaticly normalize) because you see him as the ultimate bother? Ack...this is difficult...please consider what I'm struggling to suggest...where there is deficit on one side, there is bounty on the other...and in this way, we believe we are essential to one another, balance each other...when we aren't in balance at all.


I just heard your H saying that, not our Cat. What if you've bought in lock, stock and barrel into his perspective, perception, thoughts and beliefs...his stuff totally...because what, yours wasn't good enough, worthy, worth being of yourself? So you can channel him? He's your comparison, the one person you stand next to who doesn't make you feel less than, maybe? With him, do you feel more than? "At least I'm not..." "At least I don't..."?

Probably why I like EE on your thread so much...learning confrontation skills. Learning CONFLICT skills...so you can see how you can really connect through conflict in a healthy way. Part of this process I see you doing...and I see us as pushing you to keep going...look back and see your progress...look ahead to where you want to truly be...and be here, with us, right now.

I see you as passing on God's messages in your posts and in your life...everything you share...the attention, consideration, respect, care and genuine concern...shines. You don't have to act perfectly, or good to be of use to God...didn't he speak through the jawbone of an a$$? As a burning bush? Did they have credibility? You are equal, credible and real, Cat.

You don't stop being those things...ever. You just stopped experiencing them that way, 'k?

Which is why you can break every automatic, retrain and live freely.

I do not believe your H is miserable for one second. He has his lifeline, unspeakable gratitude (not as we experience it) crushing him...I believe for all you've feared in your married time...he could not get you to know the depth of fear he experiences daily...and I don't think many of us can know. I've seen this in my DH...so I'm not going for hyperbole...I don't have words to capture what I've seen and heard from him.

And he isn't that way now. He doesn't fear like that as routine...yes, once in a while...situational, not like a condition it was before...and I'm no longer his lifeline, btw.

He lives.

What if you choose to share with a store owner and not complain? Your choice which you do. State your stuff as yours to someone or not. On/Off. Do/Not Do. No more wouldn'ts, couldn't, shouldn'ts?

(You've deprived so many store owners in the past of what they wanted most, btw.)

We know we're courageous in hindsight...you gotta choose to act bravely...then you will experience yourself as brave.

Know you already are. That's the key. Don't wait to feel brave...won't happen...do and don't do...then look back on what you just did differently...like the vacation...like all the times, including crisis/taxes time...decorating dance time...posting on MB for the first time, and off and on since then...you'll see you ARE brave. You are courageous already.

You are not hypocritical (hey, see the critic in there?)...I believe in every post you write to others you are also speaking to yourself...encouraging the self you've abandoned and injured terribly over the years. Of course, I see that because that's in every post I write...I'm loving me then when I didn't at all...when I was scum and wrong and bad and invisible. That's what I really thought of myself...how I treated myself...because I based all my actions on possible response. I hear you, Cat...I really do. And I'm going to love, admire, encourage, share and respect you, anyway.

I believe in you and know you are able, capable...my equal in every way. Not that WBH is...'cuz that's just impossible.



And EE frightens and thrills me...I cherish hearing his POV. And Ears is my equal, too...'cuz she rocks da house.

Don't dream of who you'll be when...right now, focus and daydream about your wholeness, newness, new choices and practice them.

Your H is your equal, too. You really don't keep him from acting out in anger...he does that. You really don't keep him from feeling intense pain from fear--he feels it. You really don't satisfy him--he can feel satisfied, believe he's satisfied or at least not dissatisfied.

What if it's not you being miserable...what if this is what you have trained yourselves to want, expect from a really persistent false payoff? Peace at any cost is not peace...it's the absence of conflict...which connects...would you consider you don't want to connect with H?

LA

So you show him the cliff he's driving off.

As long as there is no crisis, he's unlikely to change.

So show him the calendar and say this is where the cliff edge lies. If we don't turn soon, the marriage will be off the cliff.

You plan to turn, to move out. He can make a turn with you, or he can continue down the path until he runs off the cliff.

But don't withhold the fact that he's running off the emotional cliff with you. You cannot force him to believe or to change. However, you should be 1000% clear that he is running off that cliff and he's approaching the edge everyday.

And tell him the only way to avoid running off that cliff is with some changes, specific changes. Specific behaviors you'll no longer tolerate, period.

What's the worst thing, that you'll have to leave earlier. I really don't see much downside. You are miserable where you are, so why not show him where he is on the emotional map of your heart? And be clear about his current direction of travel, how soon until he reaches the edge, and what he must do if that's not what he wants.

What he believes or doesn't believe is his problem. Your problem is you have to be 1000% honest and then if things have not changed, remain honest and do what you said you will do.

Charlie, thanks a lot for starting this, lol.

Seriously, thank you all for helping. I think I must be making progress because I'm a little less torn apart hearing all this this time. And I'm even able to say this:

EE, will you do me a favor and point out the DJs I make, cos I'm so wrapped up in my self-preservation I have a hard time seeing it.

I think that, to help you all understand a little better, I have never felt like an adult. I've always been treated like I don't have the capacity to make my own decisions, by my parents, then by my brother after dad left, then by my boyfriend, then by my husband. I still remember being about 30-35, and having it hit me that I had the right to go out to a restaurant and order a drink for myself if I wanted to. I had never been in a situation where I was encourage or allowed to think for myself. Well, I could have, but I never pursued it. At 30, I still felt guilty having sex.

Anyway, thanks for sticking with me and keeping me honest. I appreciate the help.

Hi cat,

Sorry I haven't been posting, I've been doing a LOT of traveling and have only gotten online for short times. Besides, it sounds like you're getting a lot of good advice. I'm not sure I would have anything to add to it.

I can offer encouragement though. It sounds to me like you are facing up to a lot of things, being honest with yourself about some difficult things, going through a growth process. Keep up the good work, you may not be there yet but I think you are making progress.

About MB-condoned LB's: We always tell BS's to snoop without telling their WS's how it's done, and to take steps to protect the family finances, home, and children (IB, Dishonesty). We tell spouses in physically abusive situations to make plans to leave without letting their abusers know (IB, Dishonesty).

We commonly interpret "fog-babble" which is actually a DJ if you think about it - interpreting what's going on inside their head, as opposed to accepting what they say at face value. I think that is valid though, just as I think it's valid to not accept at face value the words of an alcoholic or drug addict or mentally ill person.

I don't think MB is about becoming naive, so that you are not allowed to interpret a person's words based on previous history.

I do think it's a good practice to learn to omit AOs and SDs in my life as a whole, and to learn to recognize potential DJs and be alert to whether they are actually LBs or just wisely applying knowledge of personality and past history. This would take into account any personality disorders, for example.

And while IBs are taught to be LBs and bad behavior to be avoided, it is also commonly accepted that learning to establish and maintain appropriate boundaries is good. But what is maintaining boundaries if not IB, in some sense? So again, wisdom and discretion are needed. Walking away from your spouse in the house to go for a walk is not IB if you are walking away from an AO, for an extreme example.

It's amazing but true, ANYTHING in excess (even saying you must get rid of "all" LBs) can be bad.

Cat, by the way, I don't think you or your actions are selfish. I think you are understandably struggling trying to implement POJA in an unsafe situation. Because the negative consequences are so bad. LA told me this, to be careful with POJA, and that was a good caution. Because I erred many times accepting unnacceptable behavior. That's not what POJA is about.

Leaving an abusive situation for half an hour is not IB. It is not gaining at your spouse's expense. Staying, lying to yourself saying, "I can handle abuse without it making LB withdrawals" is the LB of Dishonesty. Getting yourself safety is preserving the marriage.

I didn't say you were making DJ's. (Shocking isn't it.) You may have been, but I wasn't focused on that. I was focused on keeping your thoughts secret as well as planning a vacation without an enthusiastic agreement.

What's the worst thing that would happen if you DIDN'T go on vacation?

So why do you have to plan a vacation, just to have a vacation if he's not enthusiastic about it? You don't have to. You can stay home.
Well, you don't fix this by shifting blame to your husband, or engaging in IB. If you want to make decisions on your own, then don't be married.

But while married, for the most part, decisions are to be made jointly.

If you can't do that, or don't feel he can do that, why is there the need to independently make decisions?

Again, I don't envy your situation. I simply disagree that his LB's are a valid reason for you to choose to LB yourself.

You can protect yourself without LB'ing your husband. So protection is no excuse either.

Cat, let's be honest. Dr. Harley's advice to abused spouses is clear, to separate for one year. I understand and respect your choice, to not disrupt your daughter's senior year. But you are facing a huge task, to maintain your integrity while becoming more and more aware of the abuse that you endure day after day.

LA gives great suggestions. Your H may respond well, as he has so far. Or he may become more abusive than you've ever experienced from him. I hear a lot of that in your posts, too, the continued abuse. In front of your daughter. While you are still financially stuck if you want to live as a family unit. Is it worse than when you got here? Better?

I tell you, cat, my H started putting his hands on me and DD12 in anger, pushing and shoving, when I started questioning his choices. I worked hard to get support and make choices with integrity, but I slipped many times, and my slips had what felt like to me severe consequences. Even now, saying no to the move before we are at POJA, may have been a fatal mistake to my marriage. I don't know what the right answer is.

At Alanon, they say, "just keep doing the next right thing." I believe you are doing that, cat. I am not justifying IB.

I was thinking yesterday about why I'm so afraid of leaving. Aside from the AO I know I'll get, I think it stems back to two things. First, of course, is that my parents taught me to be quiet, go along, and not ask for anything. Not on purpose, but that was the result. I remember seeing them take my older brother to an academy for gifted kids, and me asking why I couldn't go; they told me not to worry about it, regular school was good enough for me, and even if I'm not that smart, I'll do just fine. Funny how I was the Honor Roll student and he barely passed. Anyway, I was never put first in the family, so I have this huge hurdle of doing anything that would put me first ahead of ANYBODY. It's like I'm committing some huge sin - how dare I? Stupid, but not something you can easily throw away.

Second was when I broke up with my abusive fiance. He left my apartment, came back, and wouldn't leave - horrible AO event, just horrible. Anyway, he wouldn't leave, so I did. Thing is, while he was gone that first time, the reason was so he could go down to my car and remove the rotor so I couldn't 'leave' him. And when I got to the car, and realized what he'd done, was maybe the most terrified moment of my life. Not like he was going to kill me or anything, he wasn't physically abusive. Just that at that moment, I somehow knew it was a crossroads - I could go back up to the apartment, give in, let him take care of me (put my rotor back in), and give up any hope of getting what I want. Or I could start walking, keep walking, until I figured out what to do. Thank God I did, he was far worse than my H. Far worse.

But that moment, that night, is seared into my brain. And out of it came a panic of being unable to control my destiny. To this day, I can't watch any movie that's about a person who loses control, like those Saw movies. They terrify me, that act of being unable to control your situation. Anyway, when I think of leaving, that night is the first thing I see, and the awful feeling of that night. Logically, I am not sure H would do anything, but it's such an overriding fear I can't get past it.

For instance, many times I've thought of telling him that when I get my bills paid off, or when D17 moves away, I might leave; do you know what I think of? I immediately think of him either doing something to my finances (like taking my money) or to D17 (like making her an invalid so she'll have to live at home the rest of her life) to keep me from leaving. There's no logical reason for me to think that. But because of my past, I can't control those thoughts. So I say nothing.

Cat, were you the one who recommended to me the book, The Gaslight Effect? It talks about this. Your H's constant AOs are intimidating. Mys is getting some great food for thought on her thread. Do you think it applies to you? How continuing to accept abusive behavior from him slows down your recovery?

Have you tried LA's suggestions, to look at the abuse on a case-by-case basis and choose new actions in those situations?

Are you on enough ADs? Getting enough support for your depression? That makes the difference between seeing things as hopeless and seeing them as temporary.