Cat,

After the dishes and the shirt...did you do a little jig and share with DH how happy you felt inside with yourself, your act of honesty?

Did you thank him for being with you doing the dishes? Share that both of his choices made little love deposits in your bank?

Takes a second to hug and kiss, express and reconnect. Because you spoke aloud...you shared.

Thank yourself for your bravery and for noticing and not discounting his choices. I saw respect, love and acceptance in your actions...and in his.

LA

Easy to find the DJ. If he would just see things MY way implies that her view is better, or that the fear is inferior. That's the DJ.

Instead of trying to eliminate the fear, figure out how it fits into daily life.

I see danger all around. I don't obsess about it, but I do see it. When I see a child carrying a knife or scissors, I can imagine, sometimes vividly, the worst case scenarios. So if they are running, or have the points "up" I remind them to handle with care.

Now if they are acting properly, I can relax more.

So there is a place for the concern, in my opinion. There may be more healthy ways of dealing with it. However, I don't think it does any good to discount his fears.

All that does is take away HIS voice if you discount his fears. So what's one natural reaction of someone who feels he has no voice? He raises his voice. He is louder, or repeats the same things over and over.

Is it possible he does these things because he doesn't have the impression that HE is being heard.

I'm not saying that you don't feel heard, or you don't feel you have any voice.

Frankly, I think BOTH of you don't feel heard or understood by one another.

Just a theory of mine.

Comments?

In some ways, he seems like my 15 year old step son.

I think it's great that you can make a respectful request, will you please help with the clean up, please take your shirt with you.

Indeed, these are good things.

As far as being heard, I would imagine he probably notices sometimes when he's been talking for an hour straight that I'm trying to get other things done at the same time. And I imagine my physical withdrawal from him has affected him. I've been trying to hug and kiss him when he comes in the door, which I know he likes, and he's responding to that.

What I was really trying to say about getting him to not be as fearful is that he's not a philosophical person. He understands it when he's exposed to it, but he doesn't seek it out. He depends on me a lot to explain my philosophies, and he often picks them up as his own. For instance when I met him, he believed in Creation; I explained why I believed in evolution, talked about science et al., and he had never really been exposed to anyone talking about it. So he came up with his philosophy that who says God's seven days were OUR days, but days in God's time (i.e. billions of years), so he's happy with that marriage of ideas.

Anyway, I think he's probably never thought about how people think and fear and all this stuff. I think that, if I were to talk about it, explain that I feel everyone's in control of their destiny, there's always a way out of every problem - basically my optimism - he might start thinking about it and adjust himself away from his FOO fear-based reactionism. He can think whatever he wants. But for us to have a decent marriage, I need a little more give from him and less reactionism based on fear.

He did another 'I do all the work around here, I can't stand living in this house, why do I have to put up with all this crap' this morning, and I came this.close to an 'I feel' statement. At least it's in my mind, on the tip of my tongue, now. I foresee me telling him pretty soon how unhappy I am.

It's good that you are making the effort for more physical affection, if he likes that. You aren't feeling resentful about it though, are you?


One thing about your statement, about getting him to not be as fearful, is it is you trying to fix him or change him. I think you are saying that he depends on you for such things - to determine his outlook, and to solve his interpersonal problems at work etc. You were talking earlier about pulling back from doing that as much, right? To let go of responsibility for his actions and beliefs, for your own peace of mind but also to allow him to grow.


I'm not sure I understand ... no biggie, not saying that statement is bad or wrong, I'm just confused. I'm still on my first cup of coffee, maybe it's clear to others.


I encourage you to share with him... I know you're working up to it. I'm just sending you some more encouragement to get you closer to it, maybe even do it.

Would it help to practice here? What statement would you have made? How woud you share what you feel, and still be respectful? Can you say it without breaking down into tears or an AO?

Just yesterday or so I read something... by pep? ... about our own responsibility in not becoming resentful. In fact I may have copied and pasted that to someone, TAA I think. (Told ya, still on first cup o' joe.) Anyway, that's on my mind this morning and that's why I was thinking about resentment when I read your post.

*hugs*

What I meant was that I think he's never stepped outside his fear of failure to think about the fact that if he were to choose to do less, no one would think of him as a failure, and if something bad happens, it's not the end of the world. I think he's just never thought that way, so that if I were to bring it up, it might help him not be so fearful of failure.

I'm not saying I want to dictate what he thinks; I want to open him up to other possibilities. I don't really expect him to change anyway; I just feel like as his wife, if I never tried to help him see that there is a way to be happy, he'd never come to it on his own; what he does with it then is his choice. Kind of like if someone grew up not reading books, and thinks he's fulfilled, and you know that if he would just give books a chance, if you could find a way for him to see how exciting it can be to get involved in a book, there's a 50/50 chance he'd love it and incorporate reading into his life. Does that make any better sense?

I'm not resentful about hugging him, although my feelings aren't really all there; maybe that'll come.

What I meant is that I wish he wasn't dictated by his fear of everything, so that he'd feel safer to just enjoy the moment and feel like he doesn't have to defend his 'rightness' to me all the time. For instance yesterday he was making fun of rappers, using the N word, etc., and D17 called him out on it, it escalated, I said "Just stop it!" and then he had to defend himself by telling me that I was egging him on; otherwise he would have stopped. My fault. Right.

Thanks for explaining... it makes sense. The analogy about reading books... ok, i see that you are "letting go of the response". That's good.

I'm glad you aren't feeling resentment about the hugging. I didn't get that from what you wrote, it was just in my mind b/c of the other post, which had things in it for me to think about for myself.

Him having to defend his "rightness" to you all the time... I can imagine that gets tiresome. I also wish he could heal from the insecurity or whatever is behind all that.

Re. this most recent incident, what do you think of the idea that you and DD might just walk away when he goes into a tirade like that? For example, I might establish some sort of boundary for myself, that I will not condone such language, I won't participate in a conversation with that word, and I will not remain in the room with such language. In a sense I think it's good that DD called him on it, but in another sense I can see how continuing to be in the conversation with him feeds into his tirade. I'm again reminded of the 5 y.o. having a tantrum, who becomes quiet as soon as his target audience a.k.a. mommy has left the room. What would H have done if you and DD would've just walked out of the room as soon as the N word was spoken? Or maybe as soon as the tirade began? (But a particular word is a more clear boundary.)

Well, we were in the car at the time. But I can see doing it at home.

Oh! Well yes, I don't suggest leaving the room if you are in the car...

trying to think of some of the tactics H uses to avoid talking to me...

What about turning the radio on/up?

I guess if the tirade was about rapper maybe the radio was already on. Maybe y'all could take headphones/ipods with you at all times? Or maybe just clam up? Totally? As if you aren't there? Resisting the urge to say just one thing...


I dunno, just some ideas. Right now I'm about to take the kids to the local science museum, they've been clamoring for it for days!

It is deeply disturbing to me that your husband is such a consistent racist. I cannot comprehend how you can tolerate that, let along allow your daughter to hear it without demanding that your husband stop. Racism is an insidious poison of the mind and soul. It is a total dealbreaker for me, and I am sure many others.

The truth is, he's not a racist, at least not completely. It's hard to explain. His best friend is black, he hangs out with a lot of blacks, our best friends in our neighborhood are black, and his best friend is D17's godfather. And he's better friends with the blacks at his work than the whites. With individual people, he never is like that. He just uses that as something to be able to criticize. It makes him feel better than someone. Of course, he may just do it because he knows it annoys us; wouldn't be the first time.

That makes me really sad. Using the 'n' word as a slur is totally unacceptable. And for someone with black friends? That is just ugly.

How old are you, wormgoddess? Just curious. I just turned 50, and I remember not even 15 years ago that one of the largest secondary cities in our state didn't even 'allow' blacks to live there. They literally got harassed so much that none would live there. I appreciate your feelings, and agree, but the real world isn't quite so clean cut.

Anyway, after another day when something went wrong and I got to listen to H muttering about how he has to do everything himself, we took D17 and her friends to the park for a picnic. He was trying to be nice (i.e. he wants to have sex tonight), so I got up the nerve and said 'Can I ask you something?' 'Yeah.' 'When you're working on something, like today, and you get frustrated, and you start saying that you have to do everything yourself, no one helps you, stuff like that, do you really mean it?' 'What do you mean?' 'I mean, do you really believe that no one is helping you?' 'Yeah.' 'But I am helping you. D17 helps you too. Sometimes I spend the entire day next to you helping you.' 'Yeah.' 'So how do you see that no one is helping you?' 'Well, no one WAS helping me. That's why I dropped the part and had to sand and paint it all over again.' 'But I WAS helping you the first time you dropped it. I was right next to you. Even if I'd carried my hands underneath you the whole time you were holding it, and you dropped it, it still would have fallen onto my hands and gotten messed up. You STILL would have had to repaint it.' 'Yeah.' 'So how can you say it's my fault that you were having to do so much more work?' 'I don't know. I just know you're not helping me.'

So it's good I actually got up the nerve and talked to him, but how do you deal with that logic? All I know is it makes me want to NOT help him; no matter what I do, help or not, forego my own work to keep from getting blamed, I get blamed anyway.

Sorry cat, I'm not being very helpful right now, am I?

*hugs* anyway.

Warning, DJ ahead. Boy, he must really be horny. Or else realized that was a dumb thing to say to me. He's in the closet fixing some shelves that have been broken for months. The only time he goes to that much trouble is when he wants me to be in a good enough mood for sex.

Well.

That was interesting. H got mad at D17, she came home, starting tearing into him, telling him everything that bothered her about him, basically all the stuff I feel, too. But he listened to her. Went on for about 2 hours, with me stepping forward several times to point out things. He's really quiet, even trying to make jokes, now. I'm afraid to go to bed, though. Kind of hoping he'll fall asleep in there, watching tv in the bedroom, cos I am afraid that with just me, it'll turn into an argument. I'll let you all know tomorrow how it went.

I hope it went ok...

Hi Cat,

(Good to know your feet are doing fine!)

I've recently come across a communication method that really gripped me - Nonviolent Communication, by Marshall Rosenberg (there's a book out with that name, if you're curious). Have you heard of it? In case you haven't, I think it may be very applicable in dealing with your hubby in situations like the one you described.

What I've noticed in my attempts to do this method of communicating, that focusing ONLY on the steps I'll outline below (observation NOT judgement, feeling NOT thought, need NOT strategy) it's easier to keep from feeling attacked, and it's easier staying on topic and not getting bogged down in 'logic' debates. From your transcript of the 'helping/not helping' discussion, LOGICALLY I agree there's nothing more you could have done to help - from the moment he dropped the part, the work needed to be redone - but you'd agree with me that he still FELT unsupported. If you can focus on the need, you're bound to feel more compassionate and not as likely to feel bad or guilty yourself, either.

Rosenberg posits that people do whatever they do to get important needs fulfilled. These needs are more or less the same for everyone (not exactly like Harley's ENs, but similar; things like companionship, significance, love, freedom), but not everyone knows how to get their needs met in a constructive way. Most of us are trained to either FIGHT for our needs (like meeting our needs is something other people will only do if we force them to) or BEG for their needs (like our needs are an imposition on others, and we need to be circumspect and never expect anyone to want to lift a finger on our behalf).

Instead, nonviolent communication is based on the thought that most people (when they feel good and are not overwhelmed or unfulfilled themselves) will happily go out of their way to help others, because helping others feels good IF you do it out of your own volition and not out of guilt or shame. So, if you can state your needs in a comprehensive, nonviolent manner while keeping an ear out for the other's needs, people will be very likely to meet your needs. Of course, in a situation like a marriage, people get entrenched in communication methods and it may take a while to see some changes. I think in your situation you may actually have an advantage: you've trained yourself so well to not talk about what's going on within YOU, you might be able to listen to him longer. In my case, I tend to feel overwhelmed easily and just want to make it all about ME, so I can't focus on the other for a very long time.

The way to be honest about your needs without accusing others and the way to find out about others' needs are nearly identical. The general framework is always:

1- Observation: what actually happened?
2- Emotion: What feeling did you get in situation 1?
3- Need: What need causes you to react with feeling 2 in situation 1?
4- Action: What can I do to make life more wonderful for you?

From his point of view (I'm going to do some guesswork here, for the sake of example. If I'm off in any way, don't hesitate to correct me! Additionally, if you don't feel like getting advice today, please disregard.):

1- Observation: In this case, he dropped a part so he had to repeat some work.

2- Emotion: He probably felt frustrated or angry or sad - depending on his and your emotional vocabulary, you could hazard a guess until he says 'yeah, that's it!' If you try this, please make sure not to accept non-feelings as a feeling, so if he says 'I feel abandoned/neglected/misunderstood' that's not really a feeling - that's a judgement. 'So, you felt lonely?' would be a subtle rephrase.

3- Need: It's not the situation itself that causes the feeling, it's whether the situation meets a need or doesn't. Getting people to state their needs is pretty difficult, because we never practice it, but in this case he was probably experiencing a need for support that wasn't met, or maybe appreciation/acknowledgement for what he's doing, or maybe just empathy. May again take some guesswork - he'll probably say 'That's what I said!' when you hit the mark, and if you're able to take that as a 'yes indeed, thanks for helping me clarify' you're a nonviolent communication grand master. According to Rosenberg, it's important to remember that 'needs' are not specific actions a specific person should do, but always general. The specific stuff is called a 'strategy' and has its place in the next step. Of course, needs such as 'sexual expression' are best met by a spouse, but they could conceivably be met by others.

4- Action: Note that this is not an admission of guilt. The idea is that if you manage to look through the incriminations and accusations to see the need the person has, it's easier to do something to help them feel better WITHOUT taking the blame for the original feeling. Conversely, if you see the need and the feeling, it would be easier to say 'Oh, honey, I see you're hurting and would love to help you feel better, but I really can't manage X because (my feeling, my need, my observation). Would you be happy with Y?' These requests should be stated in what Rosenberg calls 'Positive Action Language,' in short the request should say what you can DO, not what you have to STOP DOING, and it needs to be manageable ('Please buy me an ice-cream this afternoon' is manageable, 'Please buy me a beach house on Hawaii this afternoon' may not be). Since he said he feels you're not helping him, he'd probably say 'I want you to help me.' However, you need to continue asking for more specifications until you get something you can actually DO.

A nonviolent communication session is not over until BOTH parties (or ALL parties, depending on context) have stated their needs and gotten acknowledgement for them. Getting acknowledgement is harder than acknowledging others' needs, as you'd probably agree with me. However, it's still worth it to state your needs (even if just for practice) and ask him to repeat what he heard you say.

A guess for your needs in this case might be: "Honey, when you say that I'm not helping you, I feel really sad/frustrated/angry/lonely, because I'm feeling a strong need for appreciation/support/community. Could you please [do something that makes MY life more wonderful]?" Or, when you're practicing, just state need, feeling, observation and ask for a repeat before you ask for a favour.

OK, this has gotten way too long. Luckily I summarised with a take-home message and then decided to put that straight at the top, so you didn't have to read all the way down to get to the good stuff. :p

Wow, cat, that sounds really frustrating, how he blames you for every frustration he has. I like WD's suggestions. Do they sound workable to you? Where are you, State of Conflict, where everything is difficult, but feels like you're making progress? Or still Withdrawal, where you don't really believe anything good is going to come out of anything that you do, anyways?

Cat, I hear you about being afraid of being alone with your H after DD17 had it out with him. What do you think about boundaries that you can use to keep yourself safe no matter how angry he is? Can you trace that back, why you feel unsafe? I've been looking at this myself this weekend, why I still believe that I'm not safe sometimes. When I look at the facts, I am safe. If H tries to physically harm me, I can get protection from law enforcement, and if he yells, I can remove myself from his presence. I am as safe as I am willing to enforce. What do you think?

Wow, thanks, wolfdeca. That's a lot to digest; gonna have to work on that. I actually think I kind of approached that X and Y thing last night, when the 3 of us were talking, and D17 explained how when she wasn't feeling good she didn't work on the car with us (in 100 degree weather), but instead made lunch for us and cleaned the downstairs (her expression of support). Then I discussed how he feels we're not supporting him if we aren't beside him the entire time he's working on anything, so I explained that I want to be, but there is also all the housework to get done. I said I can't spend every minute by your side, that I in fact try to get both supporting you and my housework done at the same time, so I'm working doubly hard to ensure you get the help you need and I get the laundry et al. done. He asked why I couldn't stay with him the whole time (his pet peeve), and I said 'because then I'd be doing laundry at 2am, cos it still has to be done. This is the best compromise I can come up with.'

We all discussed a lot of his assumptions, and hopefully made some headway on how unreasonable he is. For instance, D17 brought up me taking her to piano and how he wants to go with us because if he stays home, he (in his mind) is being left behind and has to mow the lawn by himself or work on the house by himself - so he feels that we're abandoning him to go off and 'have fun' while he's stuck doing all the work. We've had this discussion many times, but I don't think he ever really heard me. Now that D17 talks to him, he listens. That's ok; it works. Anyway, we both pointed out that no one is making him mow the lawn without us; that we are glad to help mow the yard when we get back. That mowing the yard while we're going, where he resents us for 'having fun' is entirely his choice, because he knows from experience that we do it with him every other time. So he is setting himself up to be a victim. (Yes, she told him that; she used her psychology textbooks she's been reading as evidence that he's doing that, and that it's not fair to us, bless her heart.)

So, yeah, I guess this is all about his abandonment issues. So I can abandon all housework, sit right next to him for 15 hours every Saturday and Sunday, but when something goes wrong, like the part, even if I'm 2 feet away from him, he still starts doing his muttering 'no one ever helps me; I do everything by myself; I hate living in this house' right in front of me, even though the evidence (me standing 2 feet away from him for 10-15 hours) belies that opinion. So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

You know, I had held out the hope that he really didn't think badly of me when he does that stuff, that it's just a knee-jerk reaction. But after asking him yesterday if he really thinks I don't help him, and him saying yes, that's how he feels, I can't even try to tell myself he's not really muttering under his breath about me and thinking badly of me, because he is!

We'll see. He didn't say anything last night, just turned off the tv when I came to bed and went to sleep. I cuddled to show him I was ok with him. This morning we talked normally. We'll see.

I don't even have time to go into all the things D17 talked to him about, but basically it's pretty much all the stuff I've said here (minus the SF stuff). And she 'went there' and said that a lot of the things he does fit right into the mental abuse category, that they are just like her abusive boyfriend from last summer did. And we used logic to dispel a lot of his opinions about how mistreated he is, all those resentments he carries around about us; we'll see if he accepted any of it.

Anyway, thanks for y'all's help. I'm going to have to really think on that stuff, wd. Maybe I'll get the book so I can understand it better.