I am not starting this thread to 'continue an argument' or to violate any posting rules, posted or otherwise.

I wanted to point out that in addition to having different posting styles and different perspectives (based on whether the poster is a BS or a WS), we also have different levels of experience with certain related issues.

I happen to have a had LOT of opportunity to observe the difference between a WS and a FWS, particularly with WS's who claim to be Former but really aren't there yet.

My mother would do the best FWW act she could manage between adulteries, so would my WH.

And I think they maybe even believed that they really were Former WS's.

But I sensed there was something not quite right...
And I was right.

Now before anyone posts that my WH cheated again and again because I supposedly failed to forgive and forget, that I must not have given him a chance, that I harbored a grudge... That's not at all what happened. I honestly believed his promises and I was the one who was learning and applying whatever I could about marriage improvement. I wasn't out for vengeance, really did love my husband, and naively hoped/believed he really had/could change. I would be embarrassed to admit how many 'second' chances I gave my WH, and how much I did trust him only to be betrayed again.

Also, my mother seems to now be becoming a real FORMER WW. And I can tell the difference. It is NOT a subtle difference BTW.

When my mother was between adulteries she thought she was a FWW... but she could not bring herself to challenge active adulterers. A lot of the things she said were still right in synch with the stuff they said. She sympathized with them a lot, more than she did with their BS's and children. She was willing to listen to their justifications and was careful to never say anything to upset them. And even though she said she thought adultery was wrong in general, and that she hoped they'd stop their adultery, she would never say or do anything that would expose the adultery or make the adulterer feel uncomfortable. She even drove one adulteress friend to an abortion clinic to have the OM's baby killed (even though at the time she thought of herself as a former WW and a pro-lifer). I asked her why she didn't tell the OM's wife and refuse to participate in the abortion. Her answer was that she was 'supporting' her friend...

The affectiveness of her 'style' of trying to convince friends to stop their adultery? ZERO!
And those who did stop their adulteries did so partly by ending their friendship with my enabling mother!

If one of her friends was committing adultery it was pretty obvious she cared mostly about her friend's feelings, not the BW and BC. Now there were a few of her friends who had husbands who cheated on them and she did seem to show them some sympathy, but her advice to them wasn't very helpful (have a revenge affair, fix yourself up to compete with the OW whom she obviously presumed must be better looking than the BW and that's why the husband cheated.)

For decades, whether or not she was involved in adultery, or claiming to be a former adulteress, her 'style' of sympathizing with common adultery thinking never changed.

Now I can see some signs that she is finally really turing into a FWW (after her husband, my father has passed away). Her 'empathy' for foggy adulterous thinking is finally fading.

MY WXH also proclaimed that he was a FWH whenever he was between adulteries too. But he never really got around to actually criticizing any adulterers... just like my mother whether or not he was currently committing adultery, he never quite got it, and remained to basically have the same 'what's the big deal' attitude. He never said anything that might make an active adulterer feel uncomfortable. Yes, he did claim to be embarrassed or ashamed sometimes... if it got him out of going to counseling or telling me the truth.

Another thing: One thing my mother and WXH had in common is they defended active adulterers, even if they claimed they thought adultery was wrong and should be stopped. They were very outspoken about calling people 'rude' and 'judgemental' if they really challenged adultery. It was apparent that they viewed upsetting an adulterer, 'making them feel bad' about what they were doing, as a far worse evil than adultery itself.

My divorce has been final for a couple of years, the OW dumped WH about a year before that. I'm sure that if my WXH asked me for another chance, and came here to learn what he needed to do for recovery, he'd claim he is a FWH. But he isn't really. The adultery ended. And he might not be involved with anyone right now. But he's still very much a wayward. His posts would be full of fog and lies. He would be VERY resistant to doing what he needs to do for a real recovery and accountability. For sure he'd play the sympathy card and con people into caring about his FEEEELINGS more than his need to stop making excuses and do what he needs to do. Some would see through that and call him on it. Others would fall for it and call those with better fog-filters 'mean'. My con-artist WXH would play the sympathizers like fools. He'd either stay around for the sympathy or leave pretending the truth talkers ran him off. But it wouldn't be a FWH they'd be 'running off'.

IF my WXH ever does hit bottom and realize what he's lost, and want it back, this is how *I* will know whether or not he's really ready for a real recovery, that he really is a *F*WH, or anywhere near becoming one:

He'll take the 2X4's, or he won't even need them because he won't even being blowing fog anymore, and he most certainly won't be here looking for sympathy.

AND if any posters get criticized for 'attacking' him he'll defend the truth tellers, just like Mrs. W does, a REAL FWW.

I LOVE my mother and my WXH.
It would not be affective or kind to enable more of their pseudo formerness.
If either of them came here I would hope any residual fog left in them would be whacked away by the 2X4's, not because I haven't forgiven or am 'stuck', but because I do love them and want what's best for them.

You know what? You have hit on a key component of recovery that I agree differentiates the truly recovered with the not recovered. As a recovering alcoholic, I will attest to this factor and give you my own example.

I had my last drink in 1985 and have been in AA ever since. In 1993ish one of my employees went into a scathing tirade about what scumbums and irresponsible losers alcoholics are.

These kind of statements INFURIATED ME and I always jumped to the defense of the poor little tender LAMB alcoholic being roasted! They were being victimized by words!! [lets ignore the fact that the words were TRUE and that said "lamb" terrorized his family and society at large for years :rolleyes:]

Anyway, I feel the RAGE rising as I am listening to this horrendous condemnation of "scumbum" alcoholics. And out of the blue a thought crossed my mind.

SHE WAS RIGHT. Every damn word she said was TRUE. I could not deny a single word.

On that day, i realised that I had only been in a semi recovery all those years because i had not accepted the truth about myself. Because of that, I still RELATED TO THE practicing alcoholic because I WAS STILL LIKE HIM. Even though I didn't drink, I was still in that same mental place all those years because I could not get honest.

What she said was TRUE and I could accept the truth about myself. That was the start of my real recovery.

So, I understand what you are talking about when you say there is a difference. I see the difference very clearly. I think as long as a person does not get honest with themselves, they WILL tend to relate to and DEFEND other unrecovered people. That is exactly what I did.

I HAD TO because I felt personally indicted by a TRUTH that I was AVOIDING. Once I accepted the truth, I no longer felt defensive. I AGREED.

hmmm.....

both your all's post has me thinking....if a person sympathizes with an adulter, even if they themselves haven't had an affair, would that be a red flag as to what they could become?????

I ask, because my sis had an affair last summer. My WS found out early on. And while he didn't defend her, he kept her secret. Didn't want to get involved, none of his business, wasn't his place, yada yada yada....and when the truth DID come out (by my sis...who ended it and came clean to EVERYONE....), he said that her H was partly to blame because he didn't take of her (translation....didn't meet her EN'S...).

And low and behold, a mere few weeks after her coming out, he began his own.....

Red flag??? just some food for thought.....

not2fun

very perceptive mere
thanks for sharing

Pep

Great thread!

Not2fun - TOTALLY - huge red flag!

That would be why I had that thread earlier about "When does the Fog begin??"

Mere,

It is funny that you post this, as my mother too had affairs. And not too long ago we were talking about my sis's affair, when she restated that she blamed it on sis's H. Because he didn't love her they way Christ loved the Church.

To me this was very foggy, because she was redirecting the blame from my sis to her H. And her last affair ended 20+ yrs ago.....I had said at the time, that she was foggy. I guess what I REALLY meant was she hadn't earned her "F" yet.....

not2fun

ps...sis completely takes responsibility for her A and after seeing first hand through ME what pain is caused by them, she would symphathize with the BS each and every time.....she earned her "F" through my experience.....

A wayward mindset can last forever.

tell me about it....my mouth dropped so WIDE that day.....

I think I have spent the majority of my life surrounded by fog........


maybe I should move south....I hear Texas is a great state....

not2fun

Interesting topic...

As I was confiding with various friends and family about my affair and OM, I was often surprised at the "support" I received. I assumed it was because my family knew OM (he was my "first love"), but after reading your thread, I realize it was because they were all past, present or future adulterers.

Wow, it makes me really look at my social circle differently. But sadly, my mom and my sister were included in my support system. My mom being a OW who had an affair with my father when he was married. My sister was a FBS who turned into a OW after living through her H's affair, my affair and my husband's affair.

I was thinking that you can gauge someone's moral fiber by how they react to other people's affairs. But that doesn't seem true, either. My exH was extremely opinionated and outspoken about his disgust for infidelity. I often wondered if that made it harder for him to stop being a wayward. If he stopped, he would have to admit a mistake, if he continued, then he could continue to justify (or just alienate everyone in his life so he never had to look them in the eye again).

I am reminded of the scene in "Unfaithful" where the three woman are at the coffee shop. There is light hearted joking about infidelity but the one woman speaks up and shares about how it never ends well and is never to be taken lightly. She is obviously a FWS. And in the movie "Bridges of Madison County", how the female lead befriends the neighborhood floozy and their friendship lasts for years after the affair ends.

Just because the A ends, the mindset can last, scary stuff. Kinda leads right back into the thread about earning the BS's respect back. Just not rutting with OP is not enough. The whole mentality has to change. You would think that if the whole mentality has to change, the BS would notice that and wouldn't have to be asking themselves if it has happened yet.

Is it glaringly obvious when a WS earns the F. It would seem that it would have to be?

A great thread and so true.

I have observed and spoken to WS & FWS here and as a family support counsellor and you know the the one word... the one phrase they will wriggle and change topic on and do everything under the sun to avoid saying?

I am an adulterer.

Its strange in a way. They will say I cheated ..... I had an affair ... I did something terrible.... I slept with another man/men .... but hardly NEVER until they admit to themselves what they have done and BEGIN .. just begin ... to realise the hurt they have given .....have I heard them say the A word.

I know I did it myself. Its like trying to kid yourself that what you did ... though wrong ... wasn't that big a deal. Like it was only a "bit" ... of adultery. I can only speak for myself when I say I still feel guilt and shame but no longer let those two elephants run my life. I feel that maybe if I didn't feel at least a small part of the shame & guilt still then perhaps I would take the past far too lightly.

While I can still provide support and compassion and care ... especially as I know how hard it is to have your DH deployed for more than a year... little or no contact at all .... but even so I make it clear I don't accept excuses for adultery ... I don't have one and neither has anyone else for that matter. Some will go on to get help .... a lot won't.. they think if they hide it that it will just fade away. ... most times its just their marriages that fade away.

This is SOOO interesting. My Wstbx wanted out of the M as quickly and as permanently as possible. Here there are 3 reasons for divorce and each has a little box that you check on the form that looks something like this: (1) Abuse. (2) Adultery (give details) and (3) Separated for one year. He didn't want to wait the year, but he was not in a position to check box number 2 (only I could do that). Nevertheless, he wanted to file the papers 2 months after d-day so they would be "ready" when the anniversary came up. I said the only way I would sign those papers is if we checked box #2 and put OW's name under the details.

Holy RAGE Batman - you wouldn't believe the vile response to this! Here this would have given him his insta-D that he wanted so badly, but there was no way come h*11 or high water he was going to have "Adultery" associated with his name or hers, despite the fact they were living together openly and both admitted to "cheating", "doing wrong", "having an affair" and every other synonym you can think of EXCEPT that.

During my WS's first affair, he had real trouble admitting that it was an affair, he liked to call it an emotional bond. It was an emotional affair, and they shared a bed but never went further than that. But boy, did he try hard to deny that it was an affair. Not until the second affair did he admit that the first one was an affair. And that too only because he wanted me to realise that he had cheated on me twice and that I should therefore be kicking his b*** out.
The other thing is that many times when i am speaking to him and he has read in the paper about affairs he will start condemning them. I just normally sit there and watch in disbelief, thinking. 'hang on - what in the h*** are you doing?'
The wayside mind is amazing!