Don't forget that most WS, before they were WSs, made plenty of mistakes as well.

My FWW, pre-A, came up short in all of the same areas I did...PLUS she proceeded to have an A.

So many times a member's story will read something like, "I wasn't meeting his/her needs, so they made the mistake of having an A.

That's a pantload...WS are usually crappy spouses prior to their A, too.

it's exactly a pantload! WS MAKE UP all sorts of excuses later on as to why they did what they did. It is all fabricated to make them not look so bad in the face of their getting caught. They play the same tune as every other criminal out there....blame someone else for your bad behaviors.

I have ZERO problem saying that I am better (superior) to a WS...evry last one of them.

With a WS, I agree that my actions, behavior, character is better. Much better.

However, I do believe that there can come a time when a WS becomes a FWS. At some point, the superiority(better and/or power) needs to go away as well. Or recovery isn't possible.

If you don't want to recover, that is ok too, just make sure you are deciding what your goals are.

Power can also become very abusive over time if one is not careful.

Depends what you mean about LATER ON...

While actively wayward, EXCUSES, yes...

Upon RECOVERY, NO EXCUSES...


We cannot CHOOSE to do RECOVERY and CONTINUE to FEEL and ACT SUPERIOR to our spouse.

ETA..agreeing with TJD...

And then there are different situations...

I THINK now..with emphasis on "THINK" that WE fit into a particular category...

Unsure..I'm going to have to do some more reading on this.

MY HUSBAND is definitely a BUYER. He was raised in a "June Cleaver" sort of family(borrowing this from a pal of mine here)..mother never worked outside the home..parents have been married forever...

Whereas, MY FAMILY ROLE MODEL was ENTIRELY DYSFUNCTIONAL..not saying that his family doesn't have ISSUES..BUT...anyways...

OVERALL, REALLY, I THINK he was a BETTER HUSBAND than I was a WIFE throughout MOST of our MARRIAGE...EXCEPT for when he had the AFFAIR...

Steve Harley himself told me that I was DEAD WRONG about a lot of MARRIAGE AND FAMILY STUFF whereas my HUSBAND was "RIGHT"...

He REALLY was a GOOD MAN who went WAY, WAY BAD...

I think there's DANGER in GENERALIZING, thinking of ALL SITUATIONS as being ALIKE..making ASSUMPTIONS about ALL SITUATIONS...

My HUSBAND certainly had his FAULTS but I was a TERRIBLE WIFE in many, many respects...

He kept grinning and bearing it..putting up with MY CRAP...

And when he was GONE, was when I saw it ALL so CRYSTAL CLEAR...YUCK..

I don't consider this as being an EXCUSE for him having AN AFFAIR. He could have left me, he could have divorced me BUT...

I DON'T KNOW...I DON'T KNOW...

For many, many, many years, HE WAS WONDERFUL..ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL...

Now, he's BROKEN and WOUNDED...

I think he's PITIFUL...

I often feel sorry for him....

Such a MAJOR BLOW to his self-esteem and self-image which he did to himself...

I think this is a great thread topic.

I've read, and have been told by one of the counselors we went to, that men generally have a strong need for feeling respected.

Unfortunately, adultery makes it very difficult for those they betray to respect them.

A person with integrity will not respect themself if they are doing wrong (or still defending doing wrong).

A respectable person will not go get good feelings outside of their marriage even if it would be less fun or more work to get those needs mets inside their marriage, or even if their spouse can't or won't mee those needs for them.

If somebody doesn't feel respected, they DO have the ability to change that by behaving with more integrity.

I did love and respect my WXH, but he didn't 'feel' respected.
I respect him, but I am painfully aware that he is cabable and willing to inflict immense emotional pain on me and our daughters, just to have some sexual fun with OW.

I respect HIM, I cannot respect his adulterous activities.

I've seen those tv shows where the wife makes fun of the husband, treats him like an idiot, sometimes even calls him "idiot" to his face. I've seen some of my female friends and relatives put their husband or boyfriend down in public, and sometimes not jokingly. For some wierd reason my WXH thinks those shows are funny, empathizes with those women(some of his adulteries involved listening to OW complain their husband or boyriend wasn't treating them good enough), BUT he had ZERO tolerance for me and my daughters ever even hinting at, in the most loving way, HE had any flaws.

Now I'm not saying that I would have treated him with disresepect if he would have put up with it. There is a LOT that I see wives and girlfriends say and do that I never did because I had no desire to be disrespectful to my husband. I didn't criticize him for little things, NEVER once negatively commented on his choice of attire, hairstyle, gaining weight, etc. in three decades. When I tried to talk to him about something he was doing wrong it was the big things that it would have been irresponsible for me to not address: adultery, abusiveness, dishonesty.

If I calmly and quietly asked him to please not cuss one of our daughters out over something rivial (like she accidently bumped a piece of inexpensive furniture with the vacuum cleaner), he'd fly into a rage over my 'disrespecting him in front of the children'. (BTW I rarely tried to discuss such matters with him in front of our daughters - but sometimes I did with the explanation that I needed to make sure our daughters understood it was not OK for a man to call them such names - to model for them a calm, assertive example of objecting to verbal abuse.)

There was NEVER the right time or place, or way according to him, to mention any flaw he might have. To do so was 'disrespectful'. Mostly I tried to talk to him in private, or in counseling, about his problems. It didn't matter how respectfully, privately, calmly, lovingly, rarely.. NEVER was I to mention he had a flaw.

No doubt about it respect was very important to him.

But what's sad is that the OP didn't really respect or love him more than I and our daughters did. We DID respect and love HIM; his choices destroyed our trust of him.

We are painfully aware of how easily he can get 'respect' (admiration) from OP with his charm. He DID have our respect and love, he can earn it back, but since he can so easily get it elsewhere I guess he figures why should he bother 'humbling' himself, showing any concern for our feelings, or putting in any effort to earn it back? He's settling for what he can get through con-artistry, or the latest new OW, instead of having respect because he develops integrity.

I don't disrespect him in a withholding the basic respect due every person sense, I can't pretend to respect the man he chooses to be, the 'man' he and OP reward him for being, when he
does the wrong thing. I can't do that while also being a good mother and setting a good example for my daughters.

He knows how to repair the damage he's done, and what he doesn't know he could learn. But our love and respect specifically doesn't matter much to him, and he doesn't really care if the OP du jour 'loves' and 'respects' him only because he's charmed and conned them. He's settling for easy and cheap. And IMHO that is really sad - for him too not just for my daughters and myself.

Now I realize that most WS's are not anywhere near as wayward as my WXH, at least not permanently. My WXH would view having to even apologize to me in order to be allowed to spend holidays with us just like this is his home too, as an extreme disrespect to him. But I do see that it is a typical part of the wayward mindset to want to be respected minus doing what it takes to rebuild respect after they've destroyed it. And it does seem to be quite common for waywards to go get what they want elsewhere, even if they could get it at home, if getting it at home means they have to put some effort into the marriage.

Basically it just comes down to if you want to be respected, you have to behave respectibly. And if you've torn down respect by doing things that betray, then you will have to do the work to rebuild the trust and respect. And this isn't something that the WS can demand or whine about either IMHO, because THAT is not a respectable thing to do, and therefore it will hinder the BS's growth of respect for the WS.

DOING the things needed for recovery, consistently, willingly, will rebuild trust and respect. Having a 'haven't I done enough already' attitude (as if there comes a point when they no
longer have to be accountable, meet the BS's EN's, be honest?) works against the rebuilding of respect and trust.

How long should it take for the BS to respect the WS to the level that the WS expects? That depends on factors like how long the WS lied and cheated, how many false recoveries there were, and how long the WS whines about the BS not getting over it quickly enough. Oh and of course it helps immensely if the WS appreciates any progress rather than expects it. The whole concept of the WS assuming they have a right to criticize the BS for not recovering fast enough is pompous, cruel, and manipulatie, certainly not something a FWS would do.

"With a WS, I agree that my actions, behavior, character is better. Much better."

Agreed.

"However, I do believe that there can come a time when a WS becomes a FWS."

Agreed this sometimes happens (YAY!)
But this comes AFTER, BECAUSE the WS acknowledges that waywardness is indeed inferior to faithfulness.

"At some point, the superiority(better and/or power) needs to go away as well. Or recovery isn't possible"

Oops, now here's where we differ.

The superiority of being a faithful vs cheating person needs to go away?!? It IS better to be a faithful person than to be a cheating person! And stop with the 'power' psycho-babble puh-lease. WS's become FWS's when they acknowledge that the cheating made them feel bad, not the BS's reacton to the cheating. BS's aren't punishing or power-playing WS's if they don't pretend that it's better to be faithful than to cheat.

Being a better person than a wayward is not analogous with being pompous or controlling. I admit I don't think much like a wayward, but they seem to believe that BS's are being mean to them for wanting them to admit they did something wrong? Is their presumption that the only reason the BS didn't cheat is because the WS was meeting all their EN's for them, or because the BS was never given an excuse or opportunity to cheat? I assure that is a false assumption. BS's have all the same excuses and opportunities, BUT they exercise more self-control, integrity, and responsibility than WS's. They choose to behave like better people than WS's.

Recovery isn't possible until the WS admits that.
Full recovery isn't possible until the WS gives up all pretense of their 'innocence' and takes full responsibility for their choice to commit adultery.

The 'superiority' of the BS is not the problem, the WS demanding that the BS be taken down a few notches, that they're faithfulness and responsibility not be acknowledged, is part of the problem though.

Faithfull spouses are better than unfaithful ones.

Equality is not restored by either falsley assuring those with residual waywardness that they're as good as a faithful spouse, or that the faithful spouse is no better than the unfaithful spouse.

It is NOT the goal of the faithful spouse to denigrate, punish, or put down the unfaithful spouse. I assure you the faithful spouse wants, hopes, prays that the unfaithful spouse will someday abhor adultery as much as they do, will REALLY get it, so the faithful spouse no longer has to fear the FWS will ever betray them and their children again. The faithful spouse wants the unfaithful spouse to RISE up, to become a better person than a WS, to be a real FWS.

The BS does not want to have power over the WS, something to 'throw in their face', to 'make them feel bad'. The BS wants, needs, deserves to feel safe and loved. They CANNOT feel that way as long as the WS shows any indication that they are in residual adultery justification. When the WS reveals they think they're entitled to being trusted faster than the BS is able to trust again, that stalls recovery. WS's who disregard the real fears of a BS could just as easily be accused of abusing power and of having a superiority complex. There is a logical reason for why the WS needs to humble themselves in order for full recovery. The WS can't in any way continue to defend their WS self, to demand that WS status be granted respect, while trying to prove to the BS that they have slain the old WS in order to become a FWS.

Do you know why BS's have revenge affairs?
Because instead of requiring the WS to be a FWS by becoming a better person, the BS stoops down to the WS's level.

There IS a difference between BS's and WS's.
That difference can be gapped one of two ways:
the WS becoming better or the BS getting worse.

The first option results in a WS becoming a FWS.
The second results in a WS lingering in foggy waywardness long after the adultery ends and the BS becoming a wayward too.

I think a lot of the time the WS gets away with not being required to become a real FWS because the BS is too scared to stick to Plan B until the WS is really ready. So there are false recoveries and watered-down, drawn-out recoveries. Probably a lot of times the gap never gets bridged, because the WS never humbles themself enough to then rise up to FWS status, to become equal in integrity to the BS THAT way.

My WXH threw away each and every 'second' chance because HE couldn't resist the temptation to pompously strut around as if he was superior to me, and he wanted to wield power by trying to scare me into complying or else he'd leave again. When a WS whines about the BS not getting over it fast enough that's what they're doing: a power play to try to get the BS to accept them as a WS instead of them having to become a real *F*WS.

Residual waywardness is the cause of the 'unforgiveness', and failure to 'get over it' fast enough that WS's whine about.
Complaining about the BS's 'superiority' and supposed abuse of 'power' is not something a FWS does IMHO.

"If you don't want to recover, that is ok too, just make sure you are deciding what your goals are."

See this is the kind of WS threat IMHO, meant to get the BS to settle for less than full recovery, while dishonestly blaming the BS for it turning out to be a false recovery. REAL recovery, the WS becoming a FWS, can't take place until the WS stops form of manipulation.

"Power can also become very abusive over time if one is not careful."

Fortunately some BS's recognize it when the WS pretends to be victimized by the BS not settling for false or partial recovery. Yes, power can become abusive. BS's need to be very careful not to cave to veiled threats. BS's are justifiably afraid that the WS will leave again. But that fear should not be exploited to get them to settle for less than full recovery.
When the WS exploits the fear created by the betrayal, holds the threat of abandonement over the BS's head, in order to have power, it is abusiveness.

I just think we need to be CAREFUL to just simply say a WS and a FWS.

My H, not to say that he's like ALL, went through DISTINCT STAGES.

ACTIVE WAYWARD..He was ALL that was BAD..I was DEFINITELY SUPERIOR..He was EVIL and LOST..

EARLY RECOVERY..in WITHDRAWAL..still missing her..still having love for her...but INDEED..wanting to be with ME...knowing that his desire for her was WRONG...still FOGGY but SORRY, working towards FORGIVENESS..

ONE YEAR LATER...more NORMAL..but still a FORMER WAYWARD in certain respects...

there are steps in between but I've not thought too much about this...

NOW..5 YEARS LATER...a NORMAL HUMAN BEING..just MY HUSBAND..BUT certainly LACKING in SELF-ESTEEM and SELF-RESPECT...

So I cringe when I only read WS an FWS 'cause that SIMPLIFIES a COMPLICATED PROCESS

The thing is INFIDELITY/ADULTERY is DESTRUCTIVE AND DEVASTATING FOR ALL...it is SELF-DESTRUCTIVE for the WAYWARD...

that's why I said WS and NOT FWS.

Meremortal...your posts have been right on the money of late! I could not agree more!

Hmmmmm....I wonder who that "pal" is......



not2fun

Mortal,


It's all about what one states is superior.

Your comments about not going down to the WS's level is right on.

Your comment about being a better person than a wayward is not analogous to pompous and controlling I think misses the point with some BS's. That is in direct relation to my comment regarding power.

Anyways, if you are into football, "psycho babble" is more like what Brett Favre is doing right now. Go push your disrespect onto someone else.