This may or may not be true (not saying you're lying - just your foggy perception). Nevertheless, you DID marry him. In doing so, you made a bunch of promises to him, God (or whoever you believe in), your family and friends and his family and friends. Then you went behind all of their backs and broke those promises. You have to ask yourself if this is truly the kind of person you want to be.


Right now these feelings are a neurochemical induced euphoria. It is temporary so your feelings for OM WILL change whether you want them to or not.

whatislove,

It is always a good idea to make sure, when trying to fill Emotional Needs, to make sure you aren't Love Busting at the same time. Love Busts drain more from the Love Bank than you get by meeting ENs. Trying to meet ENs while Love Busting is like trying to fill a barrel that has a hole at the bottom.

In my case, the very first thing I did was to stop Love Busting. I think that made my wife do a double-take, and look at me anew, with hope that this time might be different.

You've been reading a lot of books. Have you read "The Five Love Languages"? It is an excellent book, a quick read, entirely compatible with MB, etc etc. The reason I bring it up is because the author tells about a woman he once counseled who had a husband who was always critical, etc, everything you describe your husband as. He advised her to try "speaking his love language" - i.e. meeting his Emotional Needs in the way he wants her to meet his Emotional Needs. She did so, and it was hard at first because of the way he was treating her - but she had committed to doing this for a couple of months (I think), so she stuck to it. By the end of her pre-determined time limit... her husband had changed dramatically and was treating her very well indeed.

As Just Learning points out... you are not aware of how much power you really do have over your husband... if you can learn to use it properly. Most men want to please their wives. Most men want to treat their wives well. Most men want their wives to love them, and will be willing to move mountains if they think it will help their wives love them.

If your husband knows, or senses, that you have never really loved him... than he is likely to have been hurting inside for a long, long time. That would manifest itself in withdrawal, resentment, etc. Then, to find out about an affair that started to go physical - that would be a crushing blow. Especially if his love language is Physical Touch.

Your actions can do a lot to build him back up. But you can't do it with one foot out the door - i.e. you cannot try to fix your marriage with the idea that you first expressed when you came here, that you don't need to love him to stay married. If he knows you never loved him... and then watched you give your heart to his boss... and then finds out you want to stay married but are not open to ever loving him... he won't have any reason to ever try again in this marriage.

On the other hand, if you open your heart... remain open to the possibility of loving him... try to see things from his point of view, to have some empathy for how he may have been feeling all these years of your marriage... you will be amazed at how he responds.

All those years I was a jerk... I knew my wife didn't love me. And I was not open to her influence at all. She asked me over and over again to do certain things, and I ignored her. I ran the finances my way, without regard to her ideas or her preferences. I didn't pay any attention to her ideas about how to advance my career, or what we needed to do to fix up our house, or about what we should do for vacation. (If you read my story, you'll see I paid for that last one, as she and her mom started going on vacation without me, and she met up with her ex-boyfriend when she did...)

Once we reconnected and I knew she loved me... not to put too fine a point on it, I became putty in her hands. I always consult her before doing anything, and that is not really an exaggeration. She only has to mention something she wants done, and I'm on it. I listened to her when she suggested my style of dress was boring, and I am now much better attired. And when she suggested I apply for the job I have now... even though I didn't feel qualified... I listened to her, and I stretched myself, and I got this job and have been doing great in it. I listened to her faith in me instead of my own fears and doubts. That's powerful stuff...

In my opinion, a man is not complete without a wife... and a man is not truly complete without a wife who loves him. And even though I'm 41, I feel like my life has really only just begun in the past three and a half years.

WIL,

You cannot MAKE him do anything. You cannot make him read about your EN'S, you cannot make him meet them, and you CANNOT make him change. He has to do that on his own.

The only thing you can do change YOURSELF. MAKE yourself a better person, change what NEEDS to be changed about you, and do YOUR part in fixing this M.

The thing most spouse's have a hard time understand is that is not about "what this Marriage does for me", its about "what can I do to make this marriage better for my spouse".

Its hard. Heck, I am the BS here, and I still struggle with this....

And yes, you are still foggy, but you are making stides that most BS would love to see.....keep posting here and tell us what is going on, and you will make it yet....

not2fun

WIL,

Let me get this straight. You think that it is meeting your EN's for him to think like you do, approach like you do, behave like you do?

You said
And did you need the exercise?? I'm betting you did/do. I need exercise, your H needs exercise. His comment was more profound than you seem to realize. You had many options that you chose not to use. If you took it like I suggested (ya I need exercise), then you drop it. If it bothered you, then you let him know in a playful "tit for tat". But, actually his statement did not warrent a notation in your bookkeeping ledger (Entitled: How my H failed today). Nor did it warrent resentment on your part.

You have been keeping an inventory on him for a long time it seems. It was used to justify your affair. It was used to justify your lack of effort. It was used to justify how you are a victim. It was used to justify how you could do much better.

But, in all of that inventory it never occured to you that you might be seeing glimpses and images of yourself reflected by your H's behavior toward you.

WIL, you have not earned a divorce it would seem. You have not earned forgiveness but it seems that your H has or is willing to do so. You are truly in the fog.

Someone asked why we thought you were in a fog. Many answers were posted. I would say it is your constant defending of yourself and your put downs of your H. He is a good guy, BUT...

Yes he did this for me, BUT... He did this for ... BUT...

If you want a good marriage, you need to start keeping a different inventory. It should list what your H has done for you, his strong points, the things you like about them, and if that list is short right now. You should be worried. It doesn't mean he has failed, it means your focus on his failing is so complete he could NOT POSSIBLY FILL YOUR LOVE BANK. You are in fact giving him no chance.

WIL, people get real testy when they feel they are in a lose-lose situation. Trust me your H is a Saint compared to me when I feel I have been placed in such a position. You would NOT have to be guessing how I thought about it that is for sure.

WIL, it is time you examined YOUR perspectives on love and marriage. Love is NOT a feeling, it is an action. If it were a feeling there is no way anyone could stand up and promise to love someone throught sickness and health, good times and bad. No one feels good going through those things. What we can and do promise is to act in a loving way toward our spouse. Often doing that strengths our "feelings".

I told you earlier how affairs often start. I know you ignored it, but it is true. If you act in a loving manner, surprising and pleasant things come to you.

One last thing I should point out about the quote above. It is one of the most deadliest of all love busters, the disrespectful judgement, DJ for short. It is deadly because a DJ is an assumption which someone then acts on. You made an assumption that your H was trying to put you down. You did not ask. You simply reacted. If you want this marriage or any marriage to work, you need to avoid DJ's.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

I just gotta say it!

I love the fact that WIL has done so much homework.

I suspect that many of our responses are underestimating her intelligence. Many posters have submitted speculative observations upon the nature of WIL's circumstances.

These following I have assumed to be true:
WIL has focussed on personal needs ahead of that of the marriage.
She has undermined the significance of her own and OM's vows. (CC drew this to my attention)
She desires a euphoric relationship. Or at least initially...

Her comments of "small financial pressure" and her thinking of a back door out of the marriage at the time of wedding all amounts to a relationship concept of "RENTER". See "Buyers, renters and freeloaders..."

I am cautious to offer hopes of immediate radical change in her husbands attitude. Sometimes we guys can remain pretty obtuse for extended periods. The present situation also indicates a possible balance of power in favour of the husband (I'm guessing). If this is so, his motivation for change will not be strong.

WIL: I propose that you have NO GUARANTEES of lasting future relationships with anybody regardless of initial feelings.
Further, I venture that peace and contentment should be attained in your personal capacity, rather than having to depend on someone else to fulfill this condition. This includes being present in a negative environment.
Lastly, I believe that this fulfillment can only be achieved as we establish a divine relationship with the God of the New and Old testament scriptures.

Some things still niggle.

Why did you elope when you got married?
What is it about your husband that you identify as good as in "he is a good man"?
How did you come by the MB site?

How did you come by this site imagine? You keep setting off BA tripwires too.

I will start a thread and answer that question if you tell me what "BA" stands for!

WIL, I'm not about to leap to conclusions about whether you're in the standard infidelity fog, and rewriting marital history, and unable to love your husband because you're still going through withdrawal from OM.

It may be true that you didn't care much for your husband when you married him,and that you were well aware of that when you took your vows.

Only time, and separation from OM, will tell.

However, if your marriage doesn't survive, what have you learned from this that you would take into a healthier relationship next time?

If you really are a person who married for essentially mercenary reasons, and who saw an illicit affair with a married family man as a true love relationship, what does this say about your understanding of intimacy and your ability to HAVE a healthy relationship?

At the very least, it says that you're someone who doesn't value committment, and who doesn't see a marriage as a serious promise.

It also suggests a person unable to make mature emotional connections.

I think you've found your way to this site for a reason, and I think you're more than intelligent enough to see that you've made some poor choices.

You married a man from whom you could keep a 'safe' emotional distance, your affair had inbuilt to it the 'safety' of the OM's married status, and it also allowed you to distance yourself even further from your H.

None of this suggests a woman comfortable with true intimacy (the apparent intimacy of an affair is really a fake, as I'm sure you're aware at some level). Do you agree?

Given your certainty that you don't love your H and never have, you could walk away from the marriage right now and feel only a sense of relief. (I don't think there are children involved?) But you're not walking away. Do you know why not?

TA

Hi again WIL

TA has most eloquently expressed comments and questions upon which I am very eagerly awaiting reply.

Please excuse any apparent incongruity of my earlier questions. I am merely trying to piece the jig-saw.

Re my question regarding the sourcing of the MB site: I am attempting to weigh your apparent convictions of marital incompatibility against that of your investigation of a site which is opposed to those convictions.

FWIW: My agenda is always primarily pro-marriage.

WIL
I have learnt so much reading your thread, and I will keep following, my situation is similar except I never had an EA or PA, I have been tempted. Also there are kids involved and we have been married way longer than you. I will keep following your progress because it is making me look at myself and how critical I have been to drive my H away. Like you I don't feel I was ever in love with him, but I sort of loved him.
I wish you luck in your progress, I always looked at my vows in marriage that if I walked away after say 15 years it would have made a farce out of my life. What a waste of an investment in a relationship. I am here to better myself, and reading all the books really helps. Self councelling I call it.

Take Care.

Hi all,

Thanks again for your insights and wonderful advice; I must say that I agree with most everything you say.

Some of you have mentioned my lack of intimacy, ability to make emotional connections, and not seeing marriage as serious commitment. I think perhaps there might be some truth to this, possibly partly due to some FOO issues. I am an only child of a single parent that has been married 3x (First 2 very short lived…one of those times was to keep someone in the country…3rd (and last) has lasted 17 years). During my upbringing, I did not get a chance to see what relationships are “supposed” to look like. Also, many of the relatives that were such an integral part of my life were removed from it when my parents divorced. So, perhaps these could be reasons I may have had “one foot out the door” from the beginning…to not get too close as I might get hurt. And perhaps I was (in a weird way), seeking approval from this OM (13 years my senior) as I grew up without a father figure. Who knows. I plan on going to individual counseling to work through some of these issues and see what I’ve brought into this relationship. All I know is that my inner voice was telling me “this is not a good idea” when I was saying my vows. I need to find out if my intuition was saying that because we really are not a good match, that I should be “in love” before deciding to get married, or because I just wasn’t emotionally ready for it, with anyone.

My H and I eloped when we did due to financial pressure of him needing to get in-state tuition, as student loans were maxed out. I understand this sounds hollow, but again, I felt that I loved him and we’d prob. get married anyway someday. It just happened way sooner than I would have planned normally. We did not tell our friends and family for a couple years afterwards. I was nervous about telling my mother as I know she would not be excited about it as she thought he was too much of a control freak and too argumentative. (I know mothers are supposed to think that no one is good enough for their child, and that it’s really not up to them anyway, but I also wonder if perhaps she knew better than I.)

I know that I am responsible for my own peace and contentment…that happiness is an inside job and I can’t depend on anyone doing that for me, and that includes “staying present in negative environment”. I am trying to do this and am trying to find spirituality in the process. In many ways I’ve felt that whatever happiness I had, my BH took away from me, via the way he treated me. I’m now willing to entertain the notion that his behavior could have been due to his discontent with me and not really who he is. I know that we that train others the way to treat us, and that no one has the ability to offend us without our permission. I understand my role in all of this.

Then again, I think it might come down to personality issues…he said he can see me with someone like OM; he thinks I need someone with a similar personality type. I’ve told him I need to feel safe and need a soft place to fall, and he’s admitted that he’ll never be “soft”. He is, however, a good guy in that he is of high moral character (before learning that we’re all wired for As, I would have said “he’d never cheat on me”, but I do think he’d come to me first if he had those thoughts), hard working and passionate in his work, generous, usually thoughtful, loves his family, does things around the house by his own initiative, great sense of humor, etc., etc. etc.

Imagine: I came by the MB site by doing a search for “affair support” to try to understand how I could do such a horrendous thing. Since I considered myself a “good person”, I knew there must have been reasons behind my A that I was not aware of at the time. I wondered what could be wrong with me that I’d cheat on my H with not only his boss, but also his/our friend. I thought I must have serious psychological issues, to participate in a “double betrayal”. And to ruin our new lives in our new town, to boot.

JustLearning: I agree with you in that I have to model the behavior I wish to see, and start keeping a different (positive) ledger. I am not normally a “ledger” type of person, and am usually not easily offended, but I was merely trying to figure out why I was so unhappy being around him and that was suggested in one of my many self help books. You’re right, it’s possible I could have made a DJ by assuming the intent behind his comment, but after so many of them I feel I understood the intent, but it’s possible I’ve been taking some of them (or at least maybe this one) wrong. Either way, it was my fault for not addressing it to find out and not giving him the chance to fill my love bank.

Not2Fun: I will make steps to change and better myself and start thinking of what I can bring to the R.

Together alone: I have learned a lot from this site…I used to think that relationships were complicated, but they really aren’t at all, once they’re broken down to nuts and bolts. You’re right, I feel I could walk away and feel a sense of relief…but we have shared a history together and I’d hate to have wasted all this time on something that might be great if we both try at it.

Barbara46: Thank you for sharing your success story!

Emotions101: Thank you as well for sharing your story…I hope things work out for you.

CC: I will still “remain open to the possibility” of falling in love for the first time.

I understand that love is an action and not a feeling, but am curious…has anyone out there NOT gone through the infatuation stage of a R and currently has a happy and successful M?

Thanks again, everyone…although it might not sound like it, you really are helping me more than you know.

WIL

Forgot to mention the obvious, BH is a good guy b/c he's still around, muddling through this fiasco with me.

Whatis,

You said
My guess??? You feel heavy around him because you expect him to make you happy. OM did his best to make you feel happy because he wanted in your pants. He may even be the sort that "gets off" in seducing younger women whose H's work for him. He surely doesn't make his W feel light and happy if he is out messing with other married women.

Another guess is that you feel unhappy around your H, because you have not been honest with him. You have not stood up and stated your positions, needs, and wants to him. You have NOT told him what you really need from him. So you transfer the disappointment in yourself, onto him.

Just thoughts but consider them. Further, you stated you may have FOO issues. My guess that is probably true.

One thing you need to remember: this stuff is really simple, BUT, it is not easy. There is a big difference between simple and easy.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

It's amazing how guys get that way when they are wanting to get their vienna sausages wet.

I know that my "special place" turns me into a combination of Prince Charming, William Shakespeare, Michael Jordan, Fabio, and John Holmes...without the AIDS, of course.

C'mon...it's the 21st century. Stop behaving like that girl in the bomb shelter in "Grease 2".

WIL, I think this is a wise attitude. There's a lot to be learned from all this, and you lose the chance to learn it if you walk away.

This is going to be a long journey of self-discovery, do you recognise that? Many don't even to start on it, but I have a feeling you've got the grit.

TA

Well, I’ve started my “long journey of self discovery”, and TA is right, it has not been easy so far. I’m seeing a therapist and reading, reading, reading everything I can about love and healthy relationships.

I’ve owned up to the fact that I married for the wrong reasons. I never fell in love with hubby. We looked good on paper. I thought the sparks, butterflies and racing hearts were stuff that teenagers felt with their first crushes…and we had a more “mature” love than that. I thought I’d eventually grow to love him. From what I’ve read and what she’s said, there has to be a spark in the beginning…that love follows a progression of steps, that infatuation stage being the first and most necessary prerequisite.

After this fiasco, we both thought that we could create the relationship we wanted, with the newfound consciousness learned from this site. We filled our LBs and ENs Qs…I’ve told him that I can’t handle the AOs and DJs anymore, and he acknowledged that, but they continue. I almost wonder if he’s trying to force me to make the "D"ecision.

I think my final ‘aha’ moment occurred when I spent part of Tropical Storm Fay curled up in the fetal position while he stood over me and screamed at the top of his lungs, calling me an “a**hole, idiot, moron, and 4 year old” over my inability to deposit a check correctly and truthfully (I put it into the joint account and not into our home equity loan as he instructed, in order to make sure our mortgages were covered, and was going to bring it up after the storm passed). He said that he’s tried being “nice” to me, but that doesn’t get him anywhere, so he has to resort to being nasty. I can see his side of things, to a degree, but in my mind there is no justification for this kind of assault.

In fact, when I’ve told the therapist examples of the verbal abuse, she replied that she was “worried” about me, and suggested that he come in with me to see her if and when I told him the news I didn’t want to be in a R with him anymore.

Ideally, I want to move into the other room and try a trial separation. I feel I’ve painted myself in a corner as we just purchased a 2nd house, and it doesn’t look like we’ll be able to sell the first without losing our shirts. I’ve put $65K more than him into these 2 houses, hoping someday he’d put more towards things and our finances would be more “equal”.

My ideal plan is to live as roommates, save up some money of my own (ideally having him pay most of the bills during this time), and then reevaluate in a year or so. I feel so anxious as he’s said he needs me to start talking about how we’re going to move forward with improving our R, but I’ve told him I need to focus on my issues first…that I can’t give him what I don’t have for myself, etc. I guess I need to tell him I’m trying to figure out if I want to stay in this R or not…but I am anxious of what will happen.

I could go on and on, to further explain my situation, but I just know I can’t continue on like this anymore. I think even if we both improved upon eliminating each others LBs and started filling each others ENs, that it still wouldn’t be what we wanted since the “spark” was never there for me, and I would be searching for that kind of connection with someone else, as I did with OM. (And by “spark”, I’m not only referring to an intense and unique physical connection but an emotional one as well.)Am I correct in thinking this? I realize this site says you can "fall in love" again with your spouse, and Cuthbert said I could fall for the first time, but without that initial feeling, I don't see how it can happen. I think that spark has to be our intuition calling to us.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on things.

Really? Then how do arranged marriages succeed? Because they choose to love one another and act from their choice, not their feelings...and their loving feelings do result.

I believe you have been more in your fear of intimacy than that of abandonment, so I'm really with Stellakat here...please leave him right now...be honest and upright, 'k? You lied when you made your vows because you don't own your choice...and you said you did.

You could have fallen in love with your BH...many times. It's about you, your choices and fears...and you're learning that now, as you go...and so your pain will fall on you deeply shortly, and you'll really get what you've done.

And what you chose not to do.

And you still can fall in love with your BH, again and again...and you continue to choose not to do so. You refuse to act from love and respect...so you won't experience it.

OM's a fantasy--he's not real, you cannot really be intimate with him, either...so he's lessens your fear of intimacy by not being real. Just a loop, a mess, with a bunch of bodies in your wake you don't see yet.

I know. I remember. I've got that long line behind me, too. Crushed the life out of them and said, "Oh, did I do that?"

Sad, sad road...blaming others for what you refused to do...making others make you...like not getting off of the bed...stating you don't do yelling, feel intimidated, and that you'll be available to continue the discussion in 20 minutes, and remove yourself from the bedroom. If BH pursued and continued yelling, then you would inform him your next boundary enforcement is calling the police, then do it...that's your part, what you owe to yourself, to your marriage. And you didn't do it. Make him the guy who harms you...when you've ripped out, as you said, doubly with incredible betrayal.

Didn't deposit the check in the right account like you said you would? Didn't stay faithful? Yelling is abusive...you got him there...another trigger...another in his mind of you thinking he's scum and worthless, not worth being...another day of that for him...neither of you owning your halves, holding yourselves responsible...doing the same dance of pain.

You don't do AO's? Then you predetermine progressive boundary enforcements around yourself...and keep in mind, the silent treatment is as abusive as yelling...like playing separated instead of being separated...AO's aren't just noise...it is acting anger out and in.

New boundary...state not demonstrate. Then predetermine in your calm moments your progressive boundary enforcements. What if I call him a jerk? What my enforcement?

You know your BH believes he can change his actions, be nicer, to get you to stop hurting him...get him somewhere. Do you believe that's really true? Do you believe if he'd been nicer, you wouldn't have chosen an A?

As for DJs, if you wonder if he's trying to get you to divorce him, ask him. What you won't tolerate in yourself, you won't in others. Ask him if he's LBing in order to get you to be the bad guy. Tell him you already are. He doesn't have to stand for his marriage...your adultery broke the contract. Then tell him what you really want, what your heart's goal really is...for he can be your true partner--no one out there better--by your choice, not his.

To hear you never were in love with him is flooring to him. To hear you didn't fall in love with him over time is just as hurtful. Get honest and tell him you didn't choose to fall in love, waited for it to strike, and when you reacted to those feelings, you degraded yourself, him and the marriage. That's what feelings get you when you lead your life with them. When you get them as the signals they are...like loving feelings from acts of love you do (including your presence, attention, sharing your admiration, appreciation, seeing who your partner is today, not yesterday or years ago), then you have abundant signals of love.

And you live in it. Boundary enforcements are acts of love...for you, holding them around yourself...and for others. They are essential to all human relationships. When we twist and manipulate their edges, we feel twisted and manipulated...and so do others.

I am sure a cheater like OM would spark you...again...false admiration, appreciation is safe from real intimacy...that you choose to believe you cannot spark with a man who forgave (in the future) so much, accepted you as the whole bundle you are, including knowing you can do great harm as well as love well...just says to me you may indeed, as I did, require hitting a bottom so low, when you realize how much you are losing in BH from your own choice.

You're no victim. Stop victimizing yourself. You're his equal. You point to his stuff and say he still does it...so do you, WIL...and only you control what you do.

You chose to search for a connection with OM...and you may choose to do so again. Your choice, not your destiny. No boundaries and loose ones have gotten you here...if you want to continue to repeat, keep doing what you've done, believing what you believed...and if you want to live in real freedom, love and respect, choose differently.

LA

WOW,....just Wow!!

WIL,

In this IDEAL PLAN of yours, you do intend to share it with your husband so he's fully aware you plan to financially use him until you eventually dump him, correct?

Jo